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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Cats

To Gaylen Robison: That is EXTREMELY interesting. I sure hope that the DNA turns out to prove the connection. That would be so fascinating. It would help solve one of the really fun unsolved mysteries. It would also show that all the so-called experts in this area are wrong and that some of the witnesses over the years were right. That is, that Butch and Sundance didn't get killed in South America after all.

I don't know for sure what the truth is, but I hope it turns out to be true. It would make such a great story.

If you have any more information, please blog in.

HEY HAWK!

QUIT SCREAMING!

Hey Geico or whatever,

who is Robert Redford????

Butch used to visit...

...friends in Manti and Spring City many years after he was supposedly killed in Bolivia. To many in the area this was common knowledge.

Another interesting fact - Butch's mother (Ann Gillies Parker) was a survivor of the Martin Handcart Company.

Ghosttown Bob

William Henry Long was not Harry Longabaugh. William Long was born ca. 1867-1867 in Fayette Co., Pa. He moved with his family to Iowa City Iowa in the 1860s. He moved to Wyoming, near Cheyenne around 1880 and worked with his sister's husband, Henry Parker as a teamster hauling freight out of Ft. D.A. Russell. In 1886 he joined the Army at Ft. Leavenworth KS. He stayed in the Army until Nov 2, 1893 when he deserted from Ft. Clark, TX. He drifted from Texas to Utah where he met and married Luzernia Morrell, the widow of Silas Morrell. The quarrel that resulted in the shooting of George Morrell, Silas' brother happend on October 21 1901, not 1910 as stated in the article. This was at a time that Butch and Sundance were in South America.

Ghosttown Bob

I wish the Deseret News would get their facts straight before they publish stories like this one. The fight and shooting that that happened between William Long and George Morrell was on Oct 21, 1901 and was reported in the Oct 24th 1901 issue, not in 1910. This was during the time that Butch and Sundance were supposed to be in South America. This makes the whole rest of the story suspect.

Jerry Nickle

There were three South American Documents produced showing Butch and Sundance were in Argentina in 1901, which would disqualify Bill Long as Sundance. These alleged authentic document are fake and have been produced to support authors who have taken a position they were killed in Bolivia. Because Sundance returned and Butch never went there in 1901 these authors credibility has been lost for them. These authors have a lot a stake and are trying to protect their position.

The Pinkerton files state Butch was in Wilcox, Arizona in May 1901. Another Pinkerton file states Sundance was in Buffalo New York in the summer of 1901. William Pinkerton himself said they were part of the gang that robbed the train at Wagner Montana on July 3, 1901. Another Pinkerton document states Sundance was in Price Utah in July 1901. This would mean Sundance was in the USA on Oct 21, 1901 when as Bill Long he pistol-whipped George Morrell.

It does not make any difference if Sundance returned or not. These Authors credibility has been destroyed because they produced fake documents to support their position.


Jerry Nickle

The census records show The William Henry Long born in Fayette Co Pennsylvania was born before 1860 not ca.1867-1867 and the person this made this entry knows that. There is absolutely no evidence at all this William Henry Long was ever in Utah.
The established authors are desperate to protect their position and will continue to try to produce fake documents to support their position.

Jerry Nickle

All of the established authors have written that the Pinkerton files state Butch, Sundance and Etta were in New York City the first week of Feb 1901. I have the Pinkerton files and they do not state that at all. I have found many other Pinkerton file distortions the authors have made. I am going to publish over 20 Pinkerton memos in my book so everyone can see how they have been distorted or ignored.

The established authors are in a panic.

Ghosttown Bob

I think Jerry was meaning ca. 1860-1867 not 1867-1867. William Long's death cert. & tombstone lists 1860, his marriage record age 27 (1867). the 1900 census 36 (1864), later censuses indicate 1867. Earlier censuses indicate either 1857 (1860 census), or 1859 (the 1880 census). His military records indicate a birth year of 1865. William Henry Long could have been born anywhere between 1857 and 1867.

By the way I am not desperate to protect my position, I have not produced any fake documents and do not intent to do so. I am only stating fact.

Jerry - as a message to you - to "prove" that William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh is going to be tough because the burden of proof is on you. To prove your point you have to not only make an acceptable argument concerning William Long, but you also have to prove all other possible explanations are false, with documentation that is irrefutable, with a preponderance of evidence to support your case, much like in a court of law. So far "family tradition" does not cut the cake.

Dyslexia Bob

What? I just read the article and it said the pistol-whipping was in 1901 - I pasted it below for you:

Still Long did, on at least one occasion, display a propensity for violence. The Oct. 24, 1901, Deseret News reported that Long had pistol-whipped a relative in a dispute over irrigation water. The gun had discharged during the incident, grazing the man's head

Big Bird

All these negative and postitive comments are interesting. To those who add documentable evidence, thank you. Here's hoping the truth will come out and the family can settle down knowing the truth about their family history. Knowing the identity and what happened to our historical legends
helps to bring a fitting conclusion to the story of Sundance. And it appears to me the story is about Sundance, not Robert LeRoy Parker AKA Butch Cassidy.

Jerry Nickle

Bob
At 7:54 AM this morning you entered William Long was born ca.1867-1867 Are you telling me now ca 1860-1867? You are the one that is confused. I assumed ca 1867-1867 was correct because you typed it. This is an example why all references should be verified.

I suggest you read the article again. He was 27 in 1894 when he was married. With a little math you can determine he was born in 1867.

Where is your evidence that your William Henry Long was ever in Utah? He was never in Utah. I would guess your man lived in Texas by just using you unverified sources.

I dont have to prove anything to you or your sidekick and I dont care what you believe. This is not a court of law, this is a court of public opinion. I will go to the public with my evidence. Most of the public believes Butch and Sundance returned home. Your sidekick never proved they were killed in Bolivia and has already lost the argument without my evidence.

AC

"Jerry - as a message to you - to "prove" that William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh is going to be tough because the burden of proof is on you. To prove your point you have to not only make an acceptable argument concerning William Long, but you also have to prove all other possible explanations are false, with documentation that is irrefutable, with a preponderance of evidence to support your case, much like in a court of law." ---sayeth ghosttownbob

GTB, you are getting familiar, I seem to recall you had your opinions, when I think we met in Hanksville, UT sometime ago. Why don't we allow Mr. Nickle the opportunity to make a fool of himself, as other "noted" historians have already done. (besides, he might be right) You mention " a court of law". I know things aren't like they used to be but does the jury now reach a verdict, before all the evidence is in? Come on Butch, the Foremost Authority, had his chance, don't you want to be fair and a gentleman, and give Mr. Nickle his?

LDS in TN

AC, Jerry, Bob and anyone else interested.

This has been a really fun and ridiculous arguement. Even my earlier comments have to be taken with a big lump of salt.

The truth is that no one here is argueing as a trained historian. No real historian has ever proven anything. There is one major reason for that.
Historians never try to prove anything. They know that any "proof" they present can and probably will be disproven when more evidence comes to light. Historical proof is a vain ambition and anyone who claims to have proven anything in history is indulging in vanity.

Of course those of us who indulge ourselves with the study of history do go overboard at times.

You know, I just remembered something. This isn't a historical treatise. It is a newspaper report. How did all of us lose track of that in our vain ambition to prove that we each are right.

I believe that there is a good chance that Butch and the Kid died peacefully as old men. But I never get tired of remembering Newman and Redford running hellbent for leather into the face of the Bolivian army.

Gaylen Robison

Hey Ghosttown Bob, that William Henry Long that you said was born in 1865, came to Iowa, then to Wyoming where he worked as a teamster, joined the Army, later deserted the Army, drifted from Texas to Utah and married Luzernia Allred. Do you have a picture of that guy?

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry - about the 1867-1867 comments I think you are nit-picking here. This was a typo. I meant 1857-1867. I think you knew that but chose to criticize anyway. When I read your reply I thought you had made a typo and was trying to respectfully point out what I thought was a correction.

As for your age 27 (1867) comment, yes I can count. William Long stated his age as 27 when he was married in 1894, this would calculate his birth year as 1867, hence: "age 27 (1867)."

Now, to Dyslexia Bob: Column 1, page B8 of the Utah section fourth paragraph down of the printed edition it says: "Oct 24, 1910." In the context of this article, and the previous one in December, this "typo" would make it appear that the shooting incident occurred after Jerry claims that Sundance returned from So. America which is a misrepresentation and needs a correction from the News. If it was a typo, and not intentional, then the copy editor should have caught it. You seem very adept at catching errors.

Jerry Nickle

Bob
How about his militray record while your at it. Lets see thtt

Jerry Nickle


The books that have been written by the so-called experts are full of reported evidence that supports their opinions. The only way the public can verify what these people have written is true is get the alleged authentic records themselves. These so called experts know the public will not go to the expense and effort to do that. I did go take the effort and spent the money to acquire the records that actually existed. I discovered the experts have distorted and ignored what the records state. And some of the their sources records do not exist such as the three 1901 South American documents.

There are other records that are off limits for pier review because they are private family records. How convenient. I will make my family available for pier review if they make their records available.

They know we will never see the actual records ourselves and they have assumed until now they can get away with.

I challenge them PRODUCE THOSE RECORDS for pier review.

Jerry Nickle

If the experts had to prove their case in a court of law, they would do a little jail time.

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