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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Horse Creek Cowboy

To Anon:

In using Pinkerton files, one must consider the source of the information in the file. If the source is disclosed, one may then determine whether the Pinkerton information is reliable. Meadows in her book traces the sources of the Pinkerton information from Buenos Aires. The point is one may not blanketly accept the Pinkertons as Holy Gospel.

Similarly, Charlie Siringo's versions have to be independently confirmed. Siringo in A Cowboy Detective indicates that Pinkerton Agent "Rank Curren" was told by "Jim Lowe," the proprietor of the Alma Saloon to get out of town. Lowe had left the area before Siringo hit town. In other words, Siringo had no personal knowledge of "Lowe's" presence in Alma or when. Siringo was told that "Lowe" was Cassidy by "Blake Graham," who was drunk, while the two shared drinks on the Silver City stage. Thus, we do not know from Siringo's account when Lowe left Alma. Incidently, the Pinkertons, according to Siringo, did not believe that Lowe was Cassidy. See Siringo pp 353 et seq.

Kid

GTB
The Harry Alonzo article appeared in two different newspapers, that Im aware of. What you need to do, is contact The American Heritage Center University of Wyoming and get a copy of Early History Of The Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy. You have to understand that when Gooldy wrote this, his brother-in-law, Dave Gillespie, was still alive. There were many in the valley who knew Gillespie gave the Pinkertons the Longabaugh photo, he never mentions Gillespie by name, but when you put it altogether, you know who hes talking about. Gooldy confirms what Gillespie says in his letter, plus the photograph and Cassidy and Longabaughs participation in the Winnemucca robbery.

Kid

GTB
January 15, 1897
Charley Phllbrlck, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big hole where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockman, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their cattle on the Powder springs desert

January 28, 1897
After the Cattle Interests
Charley Philbrick, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big Hole, where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockmen, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their rattle on the Powder Springs desert. Dixon correspondent of the Rawlins Republican.

Kid

HCC
Let me ask you this. In sourcing the Pinkerton files, was Marshall Frank Hadsell & Charlie Ayers, considered a good source of information.

Ghosttown Bob

Kid, Thanks, got the article. I don't know how I missed it since I have the other two. I'll see if the American Heritage Center will send me a copy.

Daniel Buck

Kid,
Excellent, excellent.

I passed the A. Standard version on to Mike Bell to see what observations he may have. The 1912 BsAs Standard version, as you may have noticed, is somewhat different. Someone rewrote parts of it.

Also, the man depicted as "Harry Lonbagh" is Ben Kilpatrick; it's a drawing from the newspaper coverage of Kilpatrick's 1901 arrest in St. Louis. Initially, he was identified as Harry Longbaugh/Longabaugh.

In some stories, Longabaugh was described as an associate of "Buck Cassidy" -- no relation.
Dan

Horse Creek Cowboy

Kid,

Sheriff Hadsell had a long and distinquished career as sheriff, legislator, US Marshal, Prison Warden. He participated in an interview with Bob Lee and was a part of the posse after the Tipton Robbery and investigated the Wilcox Robbery. Hadsell's statements as to what Bob Lee told him should be regarded as reliable as to what Lee said. It doesn't mean that Lee was truthful. But the question again must be posed, What did Hadsell actually know as opposed to speculation. As to Ayers, Patterson suggests that Butch actually worked for Ayers but cites to secondary sources. You might re-read Gary Wilson's "Tiger of the Wild Bunch," and
Patterson at p. 56 et seq. and Kelly's "The Outlaw Trail." Patterson relies extensively on Meadows.

Your question, however, proves the point, Pinkerton files to a great extent constitute secondary sources. Thus, ultimately, unless we repeat old rumors and speculation we must find original documents. My original point, however, was more about whether I would accept Charlie Siringo as a "primary source." My answer, as obtuse as it was, was NO! He was a secondary source which requires conirmation from other sources.

Anonymous

GTB
You might find Gooldy here also.

"The David Gillespie Papers are housed at the Museum of North West Colorado in Craig Colorado and are available are available to the public."

Anonymous

If the Buenos Aires Standard story, is bogus, doesnt that bring into question the accuracy of the other S/A documents?

Kid

In the latter part of May 1908, several men, who had known Butch Cassidy, reported seeing Cassidy in Rawlins. Wm. Daley, vice president of the Rawlins National Bank, spoke to Cassidy on the street, and told Frank A. Hadsell. Judge David H. Craig told Hadsell, that he had been told Butch was in the country. Hadsell speculated that Judge Craig had been told that Cassidy was in town, by John P. Ryan. Frank Hadsell reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
At the same time, several men in Baggs reported seeing Harry Longabaugh in Baggs. Charlie Ayres reported Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, (code for Cassidys partner in the Winnemucca bank robbery), had been at the home of Bert Charter, and reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
Both sightings reportedly were investigated by local authorities, who concluded that it was Cassidy and Longabaugh.
Also, Pinkertons Denver Office, June 8, 1908, Jas McPharland, Denver Criminal History #1597

Whether it can be proven to the satisfaction of everyone, I doubt it.

Horse Creek Cowboy

As to Sundance and Butch in Rawlins in 08, the sources are, then, what Daly told Hadsell and possibly what Ryan told Craig who in turn told Hadsell, and what an unknown person told Ayres as to Johnson. Not admissible in a court of law (hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay), but bears looking into. "reportedly," Elzy Lay visited Baggs sometime around September of '07 bearing with him the remains of money that he previously stored in a tack room of the Jones Brothers' store in Alma, stealing Jake Hildenbrand's horse. See Tanner, Karen Holliday, "New Mexico Prisoner #1348"

Kid

HCC
As Im sure you know, Charlie Ayers and Bob Meldrum were Pinkerton operatives.
Ayers didnt say he was told Longabaugh was in Baggs, he knew Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others just confirmed Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others, who reported Cassidy was in Rawlins, said he came to see his old friend Ryan, who had been seriously hurt.

HCC, tell Dan, Sharkey was the name of the dog in the photo.

Kid

Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1908 Month: 02-February Day: 22 Page: 01
J. P. RYAN HURT.
Fall of Rock in Coal Mine at Walcott Pins Him Down
On Wednesday J. P. Ryan of this city meet with a serious accident in his coal mine at Walcott. and it is a miracle that he Was" not killed outright. He had employed some new miners a few days ago, and on Wednesday went to the mine to see how work was progressing. He was in the tunnel watching the progress of the work when without any warning a large piece of rock fell from the roof, striking him on the back of the head and shoulders He attempted to jump out of the way but the rock caught him on the back and hips and pinned him to the ground. The rock so heavy that the miners had to use a pry to release him from his perilous position. "Mr. Ryan was at once brought to Rawlins and is now at his home and is doing as well as possible under the circumstances.

Horse Creek Cowboy


Kid, Five years ago, the Star-Tribune reported that Bad Bob's body had been found north of Rawlins. Unfortunately, the skeleton upon measurement was several inches too short. Thus, we have another indivdual we can search for beside Etta, Mrs. Porter, and Ambrose Bierce. That is why I asked for the indicated height of poor old Bill Long. There was not a direct answer to the question as to whether actual measurements were made of Bill (as opposed to comparisom of photos)

With regards to reports of sightings. The Salt Lake Herald, June 13, 1905, page 6, reported that Butch had visited Cheyenne. That, however, is inconsistent with his being in South America at the time. Incidently, Geoff Dobson on his website reports that George Taplin "Tap" Duncan died in Kingman in 1944 after being struck by a Ford.

I assume Dan reads this blog since he has often responded to commens by others.

Kid

James P. Duncan, older brother of George Taplin Duncan.
James P. Duncan, according to his death certificate was born January 17, 1862, in Leon County, Texas. He operated the store in Three Creeks, Idaho. On March 7, 1898 he married Elizabeth "Lizzie" Helsley, in Mountain Home, Idaho. According to the Anaconda article, Cassidy, Longabaugh and Carver stopped at his store for supplies, before the Winnemucca bank robbery.
James and Lizzie operated the store at Three Creeks until sometime after 1910.
James Duncan, then becomes a saloon keeper at Jarbidge, Nevada. In 1918, Barry Ketchum Duncan is bartending at his uncles saloon. By 1920, James Duncan is divorced from Lizzie and living in Rogerson, Idaho. James P. Duncan died November 24, 1943, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.
One thing that caught my attention and raised a red flag, other than the date and names in the Anaconda Standard article, was the Three Creeks episode. If anything, Three Creeks was a prearranged supply point on their way to Winnemucca. Cassidy, Carver and Longabaugh knew Jim Duncan through Tap Duncan. Im surprised that someone who wrote an 18 page article on Tap Duncan missed the connection.

Anonymous

"In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck. There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
Dan
If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review."

Haven't we been here before? If he had such a thing, there is no reason to hide it, is there? Unless, of course, he only "reportedly" has it. Could he have created such a thing to back a theory? Surely not. Where is it then?

Daniel Buck

HCC,

Reports of the whereabouts of BC&SK are almost too numerous to count; if they were ever written up, all of them, the essay would be novella-length.

As I've mentioned before there are dozens, perhaps now upwards of 75, different accounts of the death of Butch Cassidy on three continents between 1898 and the 1970s. Sundance, always relegated to second fiddle, only has a couple dozen expiration tales.

Consider that in the early 1900s there were men who looked like Butch, who pretended to be Butch. There were informants who wanted to report Butch, whether they saw him or not, people who said they knew him, whether they had ever laid eyes on him in their life. There were also Butch Cassidys in the newspapers -- a boxer, a wrestler, and, get this, a race horse.

Last month, Utah newspapers carried an obit for Bart Anderson, a longtime folklorist, guide, story teller, and prankster in southern Utah. Ranger Bart, as he was known, said Butch was buried in Parowan and Sundance and Ethel resided, skeletal arm in skeletal arm, in a Leeds cemetery.

Ambrose Bierce, now there's a mystery.

Dan

Kid

Typo, The Tap Duncan article. Its only 10 pages.

HCC
The individual who posted this, has a different definition of Sourcing the Pinkerton files.

Using his (DB) definition everything in the Pinkerton files is an unconfirmed secondary source. Every Cassidy historian including Buck use these unconfirmed secondary Pinkerton sources as the basis for their Cassidy history. The first is the Diamo report. The second is the April 3, 1902 memo. The third is V111 history memo. There are many others, they do not question, and they are all secondary.
In Buck's book on page 34 he refers to Siringo as "The Pinkerton's Ace Detective". If Siringo found something that contradicts what Buck has written, Siringo's discovery then requires confirmation from other sources. When Ernst, Paterson and every other modern writer use Buck as a source they state what he tells them as an unquestionable fact,. that does not require any confirmation because it is the finale word.

Anonymous

We seem to have a "dodge em" champion in our midst. Why not answer ALL your questions Mr. Buck? Not just those you can!

Daniel Buck

Kid,

Whatever your point is, it's buried in a miasma of incomprehensible references. The report that Dimaio wrote is a primary source, not a secondary source. Whether it's accurate or not in all respects is another question. The "V111 history memo"? What??

In Meadows (2003), she wrote that after an 1889 holdup the "Pinkertons sent ace detective Charles A. Siringo" after the bandits, but he lost their trail. That's a reference to how the agency viewed him; it has nothing to do with whether what he later wrote was accurate or not.

"New Revelations About Harvey Logan Following the Parachute Train Robbery," WOLA Journal, vol. VI, no. 1, Spring 1997, is about controversy over who died, not Tap Duncan's family. Duncan makes an appearance on the second to the last page of the article.

Interesting item re Tap Duncan's brother, James. If I had known of it, I would have given it a line in the article, in the section about the interconnections between the Ketchums, Sheffields, Duncans, and Kilpatricks.

In fact, the article not yet written is the one about all those familial links. Why not take a shot at it yourself?

Dan

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