Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Horse Creek Cowboy

Jerry does not seem to get my sarcasm. Ghosttown Bob's comments about Charlie Siringo are appropriate. Much of what Siringo wrote was, indeed, merely a regurgitation of what others stated. Names, dates, and incidents are patently changed. It would be like using Milt Hinkle as a "primary source." According to Hinkle, Butch and Sundance were alive and well in Argentina in 1909 and 1913 and Harvey Logan died in 1941 in Bahia Blanca. Possible, but then anything is "possible" but not likely.

Kid

Year: 1897 Month: 10-October Day: 30
Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter, was arrested about a month ago in South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs, went to Pierre, S. D, but the officers who had charge of Alonzo, refused to allow him to be seen, claiming that he had been identified as one of the bank robbers, and that the reward of $1,800 had been paid for his arrest. As a matter of fact, Alonzo was on Snake river at the date of the bank robbery, working for Reader & Co.

SAL

I am sorta interested in the Sundance Kid. When I was looking for information on my great grandfather on the internet I came across an offical paper from Argentina. My great grandfather Hiram S. Kribs and a partner bought a cattle ranch and lived in Patagonia shortly after the turn of the 20th century. I heard stories that Sundance and Butch had the ranch adjoining them. My grandfather was just a boy and he used to talk about them. My grandfather had an older sister Ella. I think she would have been too young for Sundance. All I know of her husband was his last name was Brown. They lived in a small hamlet in the backwoods of Oregon where men running from the law would come to. All I know of this Brown was he was of ill repute. My folks never talked about him. I'm sort of interested in the DNA results as Sundance sometimes used Brown as an alias.

Randall

Butch...This Is The Longest Wait We Ever Had For Oakley Polar King Fry Sauce.
Patience Sundance Patience.

Jerry Nickle

Why do you and Buck engage in trying to destroy the credibility of others believing it will strengthen Bucks position? All this does is damage the credibility of you and Buck. Buck has done this for many years, and to many people, thereby ruining his own credibility, especially with those that believe B&S returned. Take the high road and produce the following documents that will strengthen Bucks position.
#1 The Longabaugh family records that show S&E visited the Longabaugh Family in Pennsylvania in Jan 1901.
#2 The Tiffany letter showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901.
#3 The receipt for the purchase of horses by B&S in Argentina in 1901.
#4 The Tito Juarez document showing B&S were in Argentina July 3, 1901.
#5 The Cattle brand document showing B&S registered for cattle brands in 1901.
This 1901 disagreement can be settled with Buck producing these documents

TM

I have read many reports of Longabaugh, Parker and Place leaving NY by shipline to South America in or around 1901 or 1902. Three questions: Did they go to Argentina via Europe? If they did, do we know how long they were in europe and where and for how long? Fiinally, does anyone have a record of the passage ( Ships records, dates )and what names they used while traveling via this ship?

Daniel Buck

SAL,

Kribs is discussed in BUSCADOS EN LA PATAGONIA, Marcelo Gavirati (2007), and in "New Wild Bunch Documents Surface," Daniel Buck and Anne Meadows, TRUE WEST, August 1997.

His name appears on some dated and undated land filings in Argentina, one being a 1903 petition regarding a proposed North American colony in Chubut.
On an undated filing, his signature appears alongside those of several other colonists, including J. P. Ryan (Butch) and H.A. Place (Sundance

If you want copies, let us know.

TM, the answer to your question will require a bit of research. More soon.

Dan

Double Eagle

TM
As Mr. Buck points out, Butch Cassidy frequently used the alias Ryan in S/A, more than likely, because of his close relationship to John P. Ryan and his knowledge of the Ryan family. John P. Ryans brother, William Ryan, died in 1898. One could reasonably assume that Butch also used William Ryan as an alias. You could therefore reasonaby assume that the Wm. Ryan and Frank Jones listed in the passenger manifest, of the Wordsworth, could be Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh. Although, Wm. Ryan was booked on the Wordsworth, he did not embark. One month later, the same William Ryan sailed on the Hevlious.

Name: Wm Ryan Arrival Date: 7 Jul 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Rio De Janeiro Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Wordsworth

Name: William Ryan Arrival Date: 2 Aug 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Buenos Aires Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Hevelius

TM

Dan and Double Eagle...Thank you both for a quick reply. Still...do we know if either ships (Wordsworth and the Hevlious)went straight to SA or did they go to Europe first? Do we know the date of when both ships departed NY during this period with certainity? Was there a reference to a Mrs. Brown on either ship by chance also?

Daniel Buck

TM,

Heres a bare-bones itinerary, cobbled together chiefly from Pinkerton reports and newspaper shipping news columns. For example, a Pinkerton report might have sailing departure/arrive dates; from that a ship name can be determined, or a ship name and a general date, from that a specific date cane be determined. No passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers.

BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901.

Theres no credible information that BC ever came back to the US during his time in Argentina (or later, for that matter).

SK&EP returned to NY from BsAs March 3, 1902, on the Soldier Prince, arriving in NY April 3, 1902, and departing NY for BsAs again on July 10, 1902, on the Honorius, arriving in BsAs August 9, 1902.

CONTINUED....

Daniel Buck

SK&EP were said to have visited the St. Louis World Exposition in 1904, but the sailing details are not known. On June 28, 1905, SK wrote a friend in Cholila that he and EP had arrived in Valpariaso, Chile, and intended to leave for San Francisco on June 30, but its not known if they did, and if so, when and on what ship one or both returned to SoAm.

Sources: Ernst (2009), Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003).

In Argentina, SK&EP were Harry and Ethel Place, and BC was James P. Ryan. SK&EP might have traveled as Mr. & Mrs. Matthews in 1905 or 1906. Unclear.

Cant recall if any of the above ships sailed to/from BsAs via Europe. For what its worth, the possibility that BC&SK traveled on the Wordsworth and Hevelius as William Ryan and Frank Jones strikes me as unduly speculative. That said, the extent of our knowledge of the bandits activities in SoAm is limited.

Dan

TM

Dan, Thanks for sharing the info and what has been uncovered so far.

Double Eagle

TM
I unfortunately did not consult Ernst, Patterson, or Meadows, before I speculated. Of course, no passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers. Therefore, its unduly speculative Ghosttown Bob claim Etta, Mrs. E. Place, arrived New York in July of 1905 on the ship Seguranca. TM, before I respond to any of your future posts, Ill clear it with Mr. Buck

Anonymous

HCC & GTB
Its all rather confusing, youve repeatedly told us the Pinkertons, Newspapers, and Siringo cannot be considered reliable sources, yet, you never question Dan Buck when he sites them as a source.

jimlyn

Interesting that the next entry down from Mrs E.Place on the ship's manifest mentions Valpariaso Chile as their home.

Jerry Nickle

Dan Buck writes:
"BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901."

What is your documentation that BC left New York with SK and EP on Feb 20, 1901?

Kid

THE ANACONDA STANDARD: SUNDAY MORNING, JULY 10, .1910.
STORY OF A BANK HOLDUP TOLD BY ONE OF THE BAND
This narrative of the holdup of the "Winnemucca (Nevada) bank was prepared for the Standard by Harry Lonbaugh (Lonbauch he spells It), the notorious outlaw, while in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, where, at latest accounts, he still was pursuing the career of a bandit and political revolutionist. He gave the copy to a friend who, returning to the United States, has transmitted it to the Standard. The Winnemucca bank was held up in 1902. The robbers made off with $16,000 in gold. As will be observed, Lonbaugh writes terse, idiomatic English. He Is very
sparing in his use of capitals, commas and periods, and some editing; has been necessary, to overcome these deficiencies. But scarcely a word has been changed.Editor of the Standard.

The Winnemucca Holdup by One of Them."

Ghosttown Bob

Kid: Great Find! This seems to be the same article that was re-printed two years later in the Buenos Aires Standard. Someone must have been peddling this story around to different newspapers as early as 1910. Maybe earlier?? This story may yet be found in several other newspapers around the same time.

I wonder who the "friend" was? Apparently someone Longabaugh knew in SA.

Kid

GTB
Actually, I found that article over a year ago, while researching Tap Duncan. Didnt know it was the same article as the Buenos Aires article, until a few days ago. Whoever wrote the article, no doubt, had some inside information. Harry Longabaugh certainly did not write the article. For instance, I do believe Longabaugh knew how to spell his name, and the date of the Winnemucca robbery. He would have known Flatnose George Currie was dead, and he would not have needed to pull a gun on Jim Duncan at Three Creeks, to get what he needed etc. He did however, know Carver was involved, something that was not well known in 1910, he just didnt know his name was William Carver. There was enough factual information in this article, that along with several other documents, articles, and confidential information, to convince me, that Cassidy, Lonabaugh and Carver pulled off the Winnemucca job.
By the way, Tap Duncan is one of the few things that I must admit Daniel Buck got right, the other one, I may never tell.

Ghosttown Bob

Kid: I still think this is a good piece of sleuthing. This along with your 11:09 p.m. April 11, 2009 post on Harry Alonzo is the type of researching that is needed. I am interested in finding a little more about that entry. Is it a Journal, newspaper, letter? I have seen David Gillespie's letter, but wasn't aware of more confirmation that Longabaugh was not involved in the Belle Fourche robbery.

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