Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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TM

Mr. Buck, what is your take on this report by Dr. Bingham? Again..not a challenge. I simply would like to know how you interrupted this report by someone that has to be consider a highly reliable source. Did you consider the encounter Dr. Bingham had on November 15th as a possible encounter with Cassidy?
Your resonse would be appreciated. Thanks. TM

Anonymous

"So even if Berns visited the site in 1887 -- and there's no evidence that he did -- he's at the tail end of a long line that stretches back to the 1500s.

Dan Buck

Posted by: Daniel Buck | July 25, 2008 at 07:53 AM"

For those of you that are interested in the ruins of MACHU PICCHU: we are again blessed by the expert at pointing out the incorrectness of others. Is there no end?

Daniel Buck

HCC & TM,

Almost 20 years ago, soon after we stumbled upon Hiram Bingham's account, we wrote it up in a several-thousand word article, "The Aramayo Mule," South American Explorer, February 1988, with a follow-up emendation, "Mule Never Know," in the May 1988 issue. The incident is also discussed in Meadows (2003), pp. 130-32.

In 1988, when our research was still in the early stages -- we had not yet compiled much evidence that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente -- we speculated that the two men Bingham met might have been any number of people, including Butch or Sundance. Later we concluded that the Butch and Sundance angle was not likely.

Also, TM, we did search subsequent issues of El Chorolque for any mention of Santiago Lowe's name, without success. See Meadows (2003), p. 364.

Dan

Kid

May 26, 1908.
You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River

Who was alias Johnson?

Horse Creek Cowboy

Ghost Town Bob,

Kindly tell us about the two alleged prior disinterments of poor old Bill Long, the alleged previous DNA tests, and the alleged bullet hole in his skull.

From Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary. Ambrose disappeared into Latin America in 1914 and is possibly still alive living with Etta Place in the Sierra Madres:

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.
HISTORY, n.
An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.

Of Roman history, great Niebuhr's shown
'Tis nine-tenths lying. Faith, I wish 'twere known,
Ere we accept great Niebuhr as a guide,
Wherein he blundered and how much he lied.
Salder Bupp

Horse creek cowboy

Kid,

Are you thinking of Pat Johnson who killed Willie Stang?

Ghosttown Bob

HCC: The alleged disinterments and DNA testing have been pretty well outlined in the two Deseret News Articles and the KSL news article and broadcast of March 24th, along with the hole in the skull. To reiterate, here is a summary:

Ghossttown Bob

From the Deseret News Dec 16, 2008: "Long's skull and a femur were dug up several years ago by another relative, according to family members involved in the most recent exhumation. The individual had a rectangular piece of bone cut from the femur, apparently to conduct DNA tests. The results of those tests are unknown.

In November 2007, Long's remains including the skull and femur were reburied in the original grave site. The bones were placed in a vault."

Then again on Dec 14th 2008, Dr. McCullough of the U of U directed a further exhumation. Each time bones were removed for DNA sampling. From the 2007 dig, a Y-Chromosome test was done and found inconclusive (negative). The official family stance was that there was not enough DNA for a proper test (Bambi Nickle Reed). So they have since been trying to track down Harry Longabaugh mother's female relatives for a mitochondrial DNA test. That proved futile, so they dug him up again in December for more Y or Mt-DNA. Now as the article states, they are back to the mitochondrial DNA route.

Ghosttown Bob

HCC: This leads us back to Sheri's question "why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?" If the family is going the Mt route and have Bill Longs Mt it should be simple enough to get the results. They should all be on one the FT-DNA database. Any submission to the FT-DNA database should come back with relatives/matches.

If they are trying for Y-Chromosome matches and got Y-Chromosome DNA from Bill then there is already a Longabaugh sample in the FT-DNA database and it should match if they are related even if it isn't Harvey's DNA.

So why the long wait?????

Anonymous

Where did the Dan Buck groupie go?

Horse Creek Cowboy

In answer to the question of why the long wait. I hate to be cynical but it would appear that the newspaper articles, tv spots, etc. are a run-up to the release of a book or TV "documentary" in which all will be revealed, similar to the run-up to the release of the movie Hildago and the stories of Frank T. Hopkins, or the run-up to Berns' "alleged" discovery of Machu Picchu. To sum up:
We have learned:
It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
There is still virulent "anti-Mormonism" in the world. (I am not Mormon)
Dan has horns, tail, and cloven hooves.

Ghosttown Bob

HCC: Dan's not a Mormon either, it must be an "anti-non Mormon," us versus them thing.

Jerry Nickle

The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has written on his page 37.
Why did Buck only mention Siringo once and this one time he misstated what is written. On page 34 Buck states Siringo discovered the Wilcox burnt loot was passed in Colorado, Montana and New Mexico. Siringo never discovered any of the burnt loot was passed in Colorado. Siringo discovered the loot was passed in Utah, Montanna, New Mexico.

Jerry Nickle

Buck also states S&E visited the hospital in Buffalo New York probably Jan or Feb 1901. As his source he uses the Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. This Pinkerton memo does not say they visited the hospital in Jan or Feb 1901. A person would not know that if he depended on Dan Buck. Using all of the sources a person can determine that visit happened in May 1901 as the Pinkerton memo indicates. (Summer 1901). This shows Sundance was not in Argentina when Buck says he was. If Buck is going to use a certain Pinkerton memo as a source he should quote that memo accurately.

Jerry Nickle

Buck does the same thing with the memo that mentions S&E leaving New York City for Buenos Aires on Feb 20, 1901. He states BS&E were in New York City on Feb 1, 1901 where the three of them checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding house. That memo does not say that. Butch could not have been there because he was in New Mexico. The memo says BS&E checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding house but that would have been Feb 1902. Using this memo Buck also says the three of them left New York for Buenos Aires Feb 20, 1901. The memo does not say that either. If Buck is going to quote a certain Pinkerton memo, is it too much to ask he quote it as written?

Jerry Nickle

Are we to take Bucks word that a receipt exists showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901? I will produce the documents I refer to, why cant Buck?

Jerry Nickle

Here is a perfect example of you and Dan Buck do.

Ghost Town Bob writes:
It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.

The primary source for the River Platt Bank account is the Dimio report, which you use to find this information. You just wrote Butch and Sundance opened an account in the River Platt Bank. Read that report again. Butch was not there when Sundance opened the account and you said he was.
This is what Buck has done with the other reports as well.
If you or Buck are going to quote the Pinkerton files quote them accurately.

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry Wrote: "The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has written on his page 37."

1. The book Digging Up Butch and Sundance was written by Anne Meadows. I don't think Dan Buck has ever said he was a ghost writer for the book.
2. Siringo's account conflicts with William French's account and memoirs. French never claimed that Jim Lowe (Butch) owned, ran, or bartended a Saloon in Alma. He never mentioned the alleged saloon and near hanging of Murray after the Wilcox robbery. Only that when shown a picture of Cassidy, he identified him, and that Jim Lowe left the area shortly after.
3. Charles A. Gianni May 1933 True West mag. claims Cassidy never ran a saloon in Alma and uses M. E. Coates, Bob Lewis, and Calrence E. Tipton as sources.

Ghosttown Bob

Gianni also says of the near hanging of the Pinkerton opperative that Siringo claims Jim Lowe through the goodness of his heart prevented: "It originated in the brain of some one far from the scene where it was supposed to have occurred. This story is laughed at in the Frisco Valley."

Ghosttown Bob

No, Siringo cannot be considered a reliable source. Most of what he relates about Alma seems to have come from Blake Graham, whom Siringo claims to have shared a stagecoach with for a time. He heard only rumors (Graham and an old cowboy) that Lowe was still around the area in 1901, but he then did not follow up on them and confirm whether they were true or not. He then blamed Murray for sending him north rather than staying around Alma longer.

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