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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Daniel Buck

Sheri,

Your observation about tampering with or switching DNA is on point. Theres also the question of mishandling, contamination, or misreading. A whole slew of evidentiary and scientific protocol issues present themselves, especially when somebody thinks that a match will lead to a payoff worth millions.

Second, your question about who owns the DNA from the 1993 NOVA documentary. It was broadcast in the United States on PBS, but as I understand it financed by other entities. A British production company produced the documentary. Who owns the evidence and other atifacts. Havent a clue. The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.

Cheers,

Dan

Anonymous

Bingo!!
Dans preparing to challenge a possible positive DNA result. First Dr. John McCullough. Next Sorenson Genomics.

A new anon

All you negative people need to remember something Dan Buck said. Results have nothing to do with being successful. We need to all give Mr. Nickle his dues.

ANA

Humor

The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.

Cheers,

Dan

For all the cowboys that don't carry a dictionary in their saddlebags: "ZIGGURAT", means "An ancient Assyrian or Babylonian temple tower in the form of a terraced pyramid". Dan, some of us would have been real impressed if you would have just said, pile or stack.

Laughter.

Real Old Timer

"the moment is lost in a ziggurat"

That is not all that is lost! I'm sorry. I have two dictionaries, neither one has a ziggurat. What in the world is Buck trying to prove? He apparently has a very big ziggurar or a bigger dictionary. We understand your desire to be looked too, but for crying out loud, get real, cut us dumb people a little slack. My wife is on her way to the bookstore. I told her to not come back unless you find some a book with a ziggurat in it.

ROT

Anonymous

Cheers,
Dan

Dan

I admit Dan, your ziggurat did give me a cheer. Made me laugh too. Thank you, we all need to laugh once in a while.

Anonymous

Thank you Humor, I was going crazy trying to find "the word". History can have it's high points after all.

Real Old Timer

If we are going to give (as we should) proper credit to our friend, Jerry Nickle, then let us be fair. Credit is also due our other friend, Mr. Buck.

He may not know where Butch and Sundance are, but he certainly knows where to find fancy words. Right?

He is: "supercalafragelisticexpialadocious!"

Three "cheers" for Dan.

ROT

Anonymous

Since Mr. Buck has chosen to lead us a bit astray, with his (knowledge?) of words, perhaps he would honor us with his understanding of the word-----pompous.

gordon

I did not mean to shout----do not know an Edwards---my great-great grandfather was Samuel---brother to Jonas---my son who has studied genetics said I would be 1/16th to Sundance on DNA----I do not understand all this hassle---why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?

Sheri

"why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?"

Well, that's kind've been my question.

You don't have to do a direct comparison of the DNA...you just have to have the RESULTS of the previous DNA test. I think, anyway. My understanding of how mtDNA is tested is that a specific section of it is "cut" out, then sequenced. The result is a string of the letters "A" "T" "G" and "C". Once you have that, you can easily compare results to any other sample. If all the letters match, it's a positive result. It's just a matter of the parties that have documentation of Harvey's DNA sequence agreeing to compare them to the results of William Long's sample.

I could be wrong though. Maybe back in the early '90's they did the testing differently than they do now. Maybe they do need a new sample from a known Longabaugh relative. This blog doesn't seem to be the place to get that kind of information. Everyone appears to be speculating and passing on rumors.

Horse Creek Cowboy

It is still below freezing, probably like the chill felt by Dan when he visits this blog. Tomorrow it is supposed to get up into the forties and will turn the corral into mud similar to that tossed about with so much glee on this site.
Some comments:
Family legends when told by our own ancestors are the gospel truth. When told by someone else's ancestors, such as Frank J. Dunleavy' report that Butch and Sundance were killed when Dunleavy was in Bolivia, or the reports from residents of Cholila, they have no credibility at all. In my own family, there is a legend about the origin of my great-grandfather's gold watch and chain. My brother put it in his account of our family history. My mother made me promise not to tell my brother that it was fiction. After my mother's death, my brother revealed he knew it all along. Family legnds make for great reading.
The idea that Sundance participated in the Wagner robbery probably results from the confusion in newspaper accounts of the arrest in St. Louis in November 1901 of an indiidual at first believed to be Sundance but was Ben Kilpatrick.

Horse Creek Cowboy

More comments:
Someone asked about later sightings:
New York Times, 11-14-01 Harry Longbaugh arrested in St. Louis.
Salt Lake Herald-Republican, April 19, 1910, Butch robs S.P. Train.
Salt Lake Herald, June 27, 1905, Butch in Thistle Mountains.
Salt Lake Herald, August 14, 1907, Eugene Schmitz and Harry Orchard with Butch southeast of Bluff City.
New York Tribune, July 6, 1902, Butch and Harry Longbaugh rob Rock Island Railraod at Dupont.See also similar account Deseret Evening News, July 7, 1902.
Eastern Utah Advocate May 30, 1912. Whitney Brothers joining Harvey Logan, Butch Cassidy and Jim McCoud in South America.
San Francisco Call, Dec. 16, 1901. Man going by name of "Drees" arrested as Longbaugh.
Ogden Standard, Feb. 21, 1910. Butch, Harry Longbaugh, and Harvey Logan terrorizing Argentina.
New York Tribune, Butch Harry Longbaugh, Etta Place in Chile. Have been joined by Marvy Logan.
The most intriguing report, however, is one which suggests that two unidentified "Anglo-Saxon" bandits met with Dr. Hiram Bingham at La Quiaca, Argentina, at 9:00 p.m., November 15, 1908. La Quiaca is on the road from Topiza.
And the list can go on and on.

Daniel Buck

HCC,

Indeed. The number of separate stories of their deaths between 1890s and the 1970s on three continents now exceeds 70.

Consider only the stories of their sightings and deaths posted the past several months on the DesertNews.com and KSL.com comment boards. The storytellers even confuse Butch with Sundance and vice versa. They have them dead in Utah, Nevada, and Washington. Butch is buried in Johnnie, Nevada; no, he's buried in Washington; no, he's buried near Circleville; no, he's buried in Circleville. His sister told me; the family told me; his neighbors told me. They escaped from the shootout in Bolivia; they never went to South America at all.

Butch died in 1937; no, Butch attended Matt Warner's funeral in 1938 and got a warning ticket in 1941; Sundance died in 1937; no, Sundance died in 1955. All these stories are true, in a manner of speaking, that is, they are believed to be true.

Dan

TM

Horese Creek Cowboy. Enjoyed your latest posting and I am amazed at the info you provided. I would like to know the sources; the last one is the very interesting. Can you name the source for the visit to Dr. Bingham?

Mr. Buck my question for you is this. You state that that Santiago Lowe was registered approx. 10 days before their last robbery. By chance did you search for Mr. Lowe after November 6 or 7th staying at any other hotels in the area? This is not a challenge, just asking if you looked for Mr. Lowe after the date you believe they died.

Horse Creek Cowboy

TM:

Source for visit to Dr. Bingham:
Bingham, Hiram: Across South America, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston and New York, 1911, Chapter VII, pp 81 and 82. Dr. Bingham was rather precise on his date and time.

In Chapter VIII at pp 91 and 92 he describes the death of two bandits two weeks before his arrival in Tupiza who had robbed a payroll. The description reminds one to some extent of the description in Elks Magazine. The conclusion that one must draw is that Dr. Bingham was either forgetful as to dates or that there were four bandits wandering about the area of Tupiza robbing payrolls.

The newspaper accounts were taken from the papers themselves.

I have not listed all of the accounts that I have found as to Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis. The point is that Ben was positively identified by at least three witnesses as Sundance, two from the train at Wagner and the other the County prosecuting attorney from Sundance. And that constitutes the main problem. People make mistakes on identification. And that was Mr. Pinkerton's problem also, witness the dispute as to the identification of the body at Parachute. Still looking for Harvey.

Anonymous

Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones

Machu Picchu
Not that it really matters, but there is no evidence that A.R. Berns, the subject of a spate of hyper-ventilating media stores in June last, ever visited Machu Picchu in the 1880s. Dan Buck.

Dan Buck "quite clearly" heard me say something that I did not say, it is no wonder that he thinks my historical evidence is "ludicrous". Paolo Greer.

What Greer has "put together" is the notion that when Berns named his company Huacas del Inca he must have meant Machu Picchu, But that is speculation, not evidence. Dan Buck.

Best Hobby of a Local Politician's Aide:
Chasing Butch Cassidy, Dan Buck, of Pat Schroeder's office.

Anonymous

Jerry Nickle, and Paolo Greer have a great deal in common, Mr. Daniel Buck.
Nickle, Sundance and Greer, Hiram Bingham's Machu Picchu.
Take a peek at the Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones blog.

TM

Horse Creek Cowboy. Thank you for the comfirmation. I googled: "Dr. Hiram Bingham, Argentina" and was able to read a great deal of his "Across South America". I did also read Chapter VII and his encounter with two American Highwaymen. From this account dated November 15, 1908. It does come across as a possible conversation with Cassidy in tone and by what he Bingham says he was told in this encounter. Taking this into acount with the later discription of the highwaymen later reported killed..they being part of several American bandits.."a score or more" in the area. That actually to me sounds like a smaller working Wild Bunch led by a planner and lead bandit such as Cassidy. Granted the presence of Sundance is not at all known for sure from either of these reports...unless Sundance was pulling his own jobs and possibly envolved in the shootout that was discribed. Again without clear identifications and variations of the story it is very hard to know the truth. But Bingham's first encounter to me sounds like he could have spoken to Cassidy.

TM

Horse Creek Cowboy, Thank you for the confirmation. After reading your post I googled "Dr. Hiram Bingham. Argentina" and found his "Across South America". I was able to read a great deal and found his Chapter VII encounter with two Americans on Nov. 15, 1908 very interesting. The "tone" and details of their conversation gave me the impression that he indeed was speaking with Cassidy. Your reference to the later story he was told about two bandits killed and the promise to avenge by a "score or more" of other bandits sounds like they may have been part of a smaller Wild Bunch if you will. This to me caused me to wonder if Cassidy was not in charge of a group of bandits hitting various mine payrolls in Bolivia. Since Sundance is not identified..it could be that this smaller wild bunch was like the old and that various groups would take on independent robberies. Until Sundance's bones are found in Bolivia or the US we won't know for sure where he died. But I do like this report as to the possibility that Cassidy was not one of the bandits killed earlier that month.

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