Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Sheri

People...

All the pictures can do is provide enough positive evidence to make it worthwhile to exhume the body and conduct the DNA testing. If the comparison had shown anything that would definitively exclude the possibility that William Long was Sundance, then that would probably have been the end of it. That doesn't appear to be the case. The pictures indicate a distinct possibility, now the definitive proof lies in the DNA. There's no sense arguing at this point about whether or not the overlays represent a true similarity, the body's been exhumed and the DNA testing is being done.

Dan, you seem to be distancing yourself from the previous DNA testing of Sundance's family. You were there when Harvey Longabaugh was exhumed. If it were me, I would know exactly what information had been provided to the lab doing the work on the bones from Duchesne. The fact that you're more interested in making pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book.

Zeke

Mr. Buck,
I agree KSL's overlays of SK and WHL were not convincing or scientific. Dr. McCullough's analyses were more rigorous than this and since he's an expert, I trust they were close enough in appearance to warrant the DNA investigation. I feel like it's probably difficult to establish similarities in features like eyebrows and earlobes from these grainy old photos. Despite that, I will be very surprised if the DNA matches. (Pleasantly surprised, though... it would make for a good story). There's just too much historical evidence distinguishing WHL and SK (and I find it pretty hard to believe it was all forged, as some have suggested).

A A

Sheri states: "The fact that you're more interested in making pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book." (This was directed to Mr. Buck.)

A well thought out comment Sheri, from what others have said, you are not alone in your evaluation. What say you, Zeke?

Another anon

Dan's #1 anon



Let's assume Mr. Buck does prove everyone else is not telling the truth, does that then make all his claims correct? That doesn't seem to make any sense. Doea a lady gain beauty by saying another is ugly?

Daniel Buck

Sheri, I'm not distancing myself from the previous testing. I didn't mean the impression. The NOVA scientific team extracted samples from a distant Longabaugh descendant and, in order to double-check, from Sundances brother Harvey, and they matched. That's about as good as it gets. They checked that DNA against the remains that we learned later were those of Zimmer. No match.

Some think, by the way, that if the result is no match, the exercise is a failure. Positive or negative, you learn something. We learned that Froilan Risso's story was, shall we say, folkloric.

Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. A have a file full of such "matches."

Best, Dan

Zeke

A A etc.,
I have no problem with that. She's discussing things with Mr Buck and she disagrees with him about the pertinence of his complaints about the facial analyses (as do I, if you've been paying attention). You (plural apparently) are just insulting him and that's what I take issue with. You don't seem to grasp the concept that there is a difference between having a discussion, even a heated discussion, and just hurling random insults at people because "they deserve it 'cause they insulted my mom in the past" (my paraphrase). That's solved with a fight by the flag pole, not by anonymous newspaper comment board comments.
And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing.

Daniel Buck

Zeke, my last message got mashed up. Again:

Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. I have a file full of such "matches."

Best, Dan

Zeke

Dan,
Healthy skepticism is always a must. I don't want to speak for Dr. McCullough but I know him to be a good scientist and I'm sure he sees the facial analysis to be merely a first step. DNA analysis is the important thing. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as I was taught.

Anonymous

So, was it Clyde Snow that narrated the Nova episode? One of the things I remember most about it was when the DNA comparisons were made, and the narrator said a word (similar to Shiite) that I had never heard on TV before. I was watching KUED, the University of Utah PBS station. I watched the episode a few weeks later, on the BYU PBS station, and it had been edited out! Funny.

Anyway, if you Wiki Clyde Snow, it does mention the exhumation of Gustav Zimmer.

Observer

"And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing." "Every" Not sure as to the accuracy of that.

Zeke is correct here. Whenever Mr Zimmer is brought up, it is not "discussing". It is pointing out a result.

O

Sheri

Awww...I did it again. I was the "anonymous" asking about Clyde Snow.

Anonymous

Dan Buck and Donna Ernst own the Longabaugh DNA, and, according to sources, they refused to surrender it, for a DNA comparison.

Anonymous

"Dan Buck and Donna Ernst own the Longabaugh DNA, and, according to sources, they refused to surrender it, for a DNA comparison."

Oh Mr. Buck, is this a true statement? (I can't believe any historian would block another's attempt at learning a fact) Or is it something that was just "reportedly" said?

Jusr a noun

Daniel Buck

Sheri,
Not a problem. I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary.

Samuel Johnson excluded the word in his dictionary, but Jonathan Swift worked it in on more than one occasion.

By the by, the NOVA documentary was designed to show how a forensic anthropologist operates. Butch and Sundance were nothing more than the MacGuffin.

Cheers,
Dan

Dan

gordon

I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER----I DONATED MY DNA TO SHOW THAT BILL LONG WAS NOT SUNDANCE----BILL LONG WAS PROBABLY SOME OTHER OUTLAW

Sheri

Dan:

"I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary."

Yes, near the end, when the DNA results showed that the body exhumed was NOT Sundnace. And, if you say it was Clyde Snow that uttered it, then he was also the narrator of the show.

So, it was PBS that produced the documentary and presumably paid for all the DNA testing. In my knowledge of such matters, they own the test results. I can't imagine PBS or someone like Clyde Snow holding back the results for comparison to another legitimate possibility. On the other hand, I can see them being protective of those results, and unwilling to just hand them over without some measures in place to ensure that they weren't made public knowledge, leading to all kinds of claims of matches by various scam artists. Something to the effect of: "you send us the results of William Long, and we'll tell you if they match."

Ghosttown Bob

Gordon, this is good news, now hopefully the testing results can proceed. A couple of questions however. When did you donate your DNA?, just recently or a while back? Was the DNA for Y-Chromosome testing? because Mt testing has to go through a female line.

Ghosttown Bob

I realize that members of the Parker/Betensen families want everyone to think highly of Lula and others in the family that contributed stories of Butch and the Wild Bunch. Experience has shown however that everyone is capable of having a little "fun" with greenhorns or outsiders. Some of you have taken great umbrage at the that Lula or others spreading family lore may have exaggerated etc. a few things. On the other hand, I suspect that any of you would not have a problem passing on the Jackalope story to an unsuspecting Easterner, and would probably laugh around the campfire about how gullible some people were.

My Grandfather was a very respected and honest man in North Cache Valley. He was honest in all of his dealings and everyone knew it. But he also belonged to what he called a "Liars Club" - a bunch of old guys hat sat around and made up stories, trying to out do each other. When it came to story time we all knew he could tell some whoppers and we always had a good laugh about it.

Sheri

"Gordon, this is good news, now hopefully the testing results can proceed. A couple of questions however. When did you donate your DNA?, just recently or a while back? Was the DNA for Y-Chromosome testing? because Mt testing has to go through a female line."

Gordon shouted that: "I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER"

According to "Digging up Butch and Sundance", mtDNA was taken from O. Frazelle Edwards, who would have been the great-great-great-grandson of Sundance's great-grandfather through his mother's mother. His wife had at least two daughters; Sundance's grandmother and a sister. It was the sister whose descendant was able to provide the sample used to compare to Harvey Longabaugh's.

I would assume that Gordon is a brother or maternal cousin of Mr. Edwards.

Ghosttown Bob

Sheri: Thank you for that clarification. It was not clear in Gordon's shout out.

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