Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Zeke

...OK. One more thing since y'all are coming out of the woodwork all of the sudden. The insults have gotten very old. Mr. Buck may have angered some people but he clearly has a great deal of knowledge about the subject and has a place in this debate, whether his theories are right or not. Some people disagree with him and are discussing that in a civil manner. Others, mostly in the anti-Buck camp, are bombarding us with constant insults. We all know Zimmer wasn't BC. Enough already. I don't want to be on a "side" in this thing. This isn't politics or religion--this the history of outlaws. You all need to grow up and grow some thicker skin. I guess people think Mr. Buck insulted them or their great grandma or whatever... get over it and learn to be civil. Maybe you think Mr. Buck isn't... perhaps you can take the high road then.

Zeke

(...)What is the harm in debating the evidence for and against Mr. Nickle's theory while we wait for the DNA to come back? Mr. Buck's responses have sometimes been more harsh than I might hope but the don't approach the barrage of insults I'm complaining about.
You people take all the fun out of this. Sad.

Zeke

I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know. That doesn't mean you can't be civil and stop annoying and chasing away those who don't take your side--I don't want to take a side or defend anyone. But, your behavior--whatever Mr. Buck's out-of-public or in-public behavior may be--is less than adult. This is like talking to a child: "but he hit me first..."
With regards to the possible multiple "anonymous" folks. They bring whatever misinterpretation they get on themselves by not using a recognizable pseudonym.
I'm not trying to defend Mr. Buck, I'm trying to defend civil discourse (especially because this is a subject of no serious importance--though one we all enjoy enough to waste our time on a newspaper message board).

TM

Wow...Let me say I do enjoy reading everyone's comments. I also wish to say I can appreciate the comments made by the many people that have invested countless hours of their lives and for some enormous funds to study these interesting historical characters. In a perfect world we would have all the answers. I would like to suggest while we wait on the results of the DNA that we engage in discussing a "what if" senerio. I suppose I am in the camp that wants to believe they did escape Bolivia. That then leads me to ask where they may have gone and how they were successful in not beind captured. Could it be as simple as the HWL story? Can one simply go cold turkey from one career choice and assume another? I can certainly understand the upside to a making such a choice if it meant evading a hanging or a extended jail sentence! How do characters like these simply disappear into History? The Fort Worth Wanted poster seemed to be the poster of that decade..So I have to believe the ...continued

Zeke

I want to clarify that when I said this was a matter of "no serious importance," I meant that the fate of the human race doesn't rest on answers to these questions. I realize people have a lot of time and money invested in this which is important to them and that learning about one's family is certainly important to family members... I meant no serious importance for the rest of us.
I am also grateful for the opertunity to read the posts from Jerry Nickle, Gaylen Robison, Dan Buck, and Ghosttown Bob who have all shared valuable information and theories with us.
I am wishing Mr. Nickle the best and hoping he's correct even though I'm a skeptic.

another anon

Zeke | 6:41 p.m. April 2, 2009
"I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know."

Have you considered that "not knowing", may be your problem? Some feel the comments you don't approve of, is simply someone standing up for what is right, and not wrong.

Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?

AA

Zeke

"Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?"

Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum.
I didn't appreciate Mr. Buck demeaning Dr. McCullough's competence as a forensic anthropolgist--he is a personal aquaintance--but I don't respond with a barrage of insults.
There are ways to disagree and even to address your beef with Mr. Buck in a civil manner.

Anonymous

"Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum". Zeke, I think we have beaten this horse enough. We don't agree. I am always willing to learn from you. Help me here.

I know a man that when he asked the Buck's a question, ("in a public forum"), where they were speaking, they both denied ever doing, what the question implied. (They had in fact done what was asked and would later admit it)

What ever happened to, "it is not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game"? Are you old enough to remember that? I believe we would all be better off, if we "played" the game, in a manner that we could be proud of. We still have umpires.

I have to believe, you do not think that results always justify the means. Is so, then Mr. Madoff is to be admired by all. Although I have not seen where he made a habit out of running down everyone that did not agree with him.

Good luck to you Zeke.

Sheri

To Dan Buck:

Have you provided the mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh for comparison to the bones from Duchesne?

Sheri

To "New"

Daniel Buck and his wife are the ones who exhumed a body in South America, believing it was the Sundance Kid. They ultimately did a mitochondrial (mt)DNA comparison of the bones with Sundance's brother, Harvey Langabaugh, and determined they probably belonged to a man from Europe by name of Zimmer. This was all documented in a PBS Nova episode 15-20 years ago, and documented in a book written by Anne Meadows "Digging up Butch and Sundance"

The same mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh could be compared to that of the body exhumed in Duschene, and settle this once and for all.

Daniel Buck

colleague added two more anomalies in the WHL and SK photographs. WHLs ear is nearly lobe-less, while SKs lobe is obvious. Also, SK had small, dainty feet. WHL has big feet.

No need to look at the long list of anomalies cited. Just look at the ears. The bottom of WHLs ear is almost on level with his mouth. SKs is much higher, almost on level with his nose.

I looked again at the photo overlay part of the KSL-TV segment. The two photos being compared were not clear and sharp, but muzzy and washed out. Worse, WHLs photo had been flopped and retouched. Sorry, this is not a valid comparison.

Sheri, re the DNA, I understand something was provided, but I wasnt involved at either end. Also, although Anne Meadows and I were consultants to the NOVA documentary, the DNA aspect was done by the teams scientists and their lab. As I recall, they harvested DNA from two Longabaugh descendants and at least one Parker.

The DNA did not match the complete skeleton we exhumed, who presumably was Gustav Zimmer.

Dan

Daniel Buck

The methodology of the anonymous: I know a man (the man is anonymous), who asked the Bucks a question (the question is anonymous), and later it (the anonymous thing referred to in the anonymous question by the anonymous man) turned out to be a fact. What is the fact? Its anonymous.

Dan

A comment

To Mr. Zeke's attention.

Sir, may I politely say to you, that if Mr. Buck, or anyone else, said things like Buck has to so many, about a member of my family, I very clearly, would deal with him, in a most "adult" manner. He would not have to describe what took place as reported either.

Thank you.

AC (a different one)

Dan

I still have the book. Looking through it, this is what happened:

A geneaologist tracked down a living relative from Sundance's female line, whose mtDNA was compared to those from the bones you exhumed in South America. The two profiles did not match. In order to rule out the possibility that this was not due to an unrecorded adoption in the family, Harvey's bones were exhumed, and a comparison was made. Harvey's mDNA profile matched that of the living relative(who was described as "elderly" at the time, but now is presumably deceased), but not of the bones from South America.

I'm assuming that the comparisons were of base sequences, which is a very easy procedure with today's technology, provided a suitable sample can extracted from the bones. The book says the geneticist had some difficulty getting a suitable sample from Harvey's bones since he had been embalmed, which I assume is also the case with the body in Duchesne.

Sheri

Ooops, that last comment from "Dan" was from me. I meant to address it to Dan.

RC B

As a distent friend of yours Dan, why cant we all get along. I have enjoyd your work foe a long time, you seem to have a lot of information, I appreceate most of yur efforts. After wathcing this for quite a long time, I do wonder what if. You would spend more of your valuable time in proofing your side of this adventue, than in what appears to be only trying to disproof others. I do not understand what you gane from that. You might have told me that once.

Rock Springs Bob

Ghosttown Bob

About this photo of William Henry Long.
Jerry, most cabinet photo like these have the name of the studio, either embossed on the front, or on the back of the card stock to which the photo is mounted. If they are not embossed, then they usually have a sticker/stamp with the name of the studio placed on the back. Is their any indication of such with this photo? The name and place of a photographer can be traced.

Also I notice that there are some places on the either the photo or the card stock where there has been some writing, that is either faded, or has been erased beyond recognition. Do you know what was written on the card, either on the front or the back?

Danel Buck

Lets move on to the lie business. Is the jackalope a lie? How about Paul Bunyan, Santa Claus, and Robin Hood? The return of the bandit, Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid, they all survived. A lie? No, but folklore, yes.

Helpful to this endeavor is AMERICAN FOLKLORE: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA (1996), edited by Jan Harold Brunvand.

Lets move closer to home.

We Parkers always loved a good story, wrote Lula Parker Betenson, in BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER (1975), in reference to a tall tale supposedly told by Butch. Elsewhere she refers to Butch as Robin Hood and Santa Claus.

Another clue, told in TRUE WEST, August 1997, by another Parker descendant, Bill Betenson: Butchs brother Dan, like others in his family, enjoyed a good practical joke. Among his pranks, a string of aliases he used, including Billy the Kid and Kid Parker.

Dan

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry, also concerning the photo. . . any family stories associated with it? I would be interested in hearing them.

1 of the anon's

Please allow me to aplogize. Among the many bells I hear, one this morning kept ringing. I looked back thru my meager files and found an old blog, that I swear is a copy of this one.

Mr. Buck feels there is nothing wrong in how he conducts business. There are those that disagree. One side is wrong, the other is right. So I say goodbye, as I don't think (right or wrong) that either one will change. I can't help but notice, one side buys the books, the other side writes. Explain that.

Best of luck to Mr. Nickle and may you all enjoy the blog days ahead.

1 OTA

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