Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Daniel Buck

Jerry,

Butch and Sundance were well known in Argentina. In the aftermath of the 1905 Villa Mercedes bank holdup, their names and photographs were emblazoned in the Argentine press.

Not sure why the 1912 Standard article is stuck in your craw. Its perhaps most useful on the question of who was involved in the Winnemucca bank holdup. Not something thats ever kept me up night.

Worldcat.com lists about a dozen libraries around the globe that hold Buenos Aires Standard collections. As for James Ryans 1901 watch purchase, youll have to contact Tiffany & Co.

Dan

P.S. Ruminate is a word every cowboy should know. Cows are ruminants.

Ghosttown Bob

HCC: An overlay has been done on a picture of Sundance and William Long, do a search on the KSL website for "Producer Scientist say body unearthed in Duchesne is the Sundance Kid." The video shows the overlay. Be careful though, the picture of William Long has been transposed (reversed) and what is compared is the right side of Sundance with the left side of Long.

TM

And the beat goes on....and the beat goes on. -Sonny

:-)

Jerry Nickle

"The Standard's issues from 1870 to 1952 can be consulted on microfilm in The British Library, Newspapers Division."

Looks like I have to go England to see the 1912 issue?

Gaylen Robison

Shari, Thank you!

G. Grandpa's bones are at this time at a lab undergoing DNA testing. We are all waiting. For even more convincing evidence, you must see the photo overlay transparencies produced by the famous forensic scientist Dr. McCullough that was demonstrated Wednesday, march 25 on Channel 5 News.
Better yet, the photo's of Harry Longabaugh's sisters. Those pictures are in the book "Sundance my Uncle" by Earnst. One of those same pictures hung on the wall in the Duchesne home of William Henry and Luzernia Long. Every relative I have including my mother, who can remember back that far, were told by their Grandpa (or Uncle) Long that those two women in the picture were his sisters. Dr. McCullough applied the same science on the Sisters pictures. He said: "They are to close". In due course of time this and other irrefutable evidences will be available to the public.
Thank you very kindly friend.

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry, I am still on the chase for the article. No luck with Ernst, have yet to hear back from Bell, I tried the inter-library loan route with no luck.

wondering

Mr. Buck further educates us with the following: "P.S. Ruminate is a word every cowboy should know. Cows are ruminants."

Cows are in this rather exclusive club, because they chew their cud, which of course is food they have already swallowed. Right, Mr Buck?

Do we get a diploma after Buck's class is over?

I kind of believe, anyone who tunes in for the Buck hour, is almost like the cow. We get to chew the same stuff over and over.

But that is what us cowboys do.

W

TM

Ghostown Bob, I have tried to research successful bank and or train robberies in the Southwest and West Coast after 1909 that might match the MO of BC and SK and have had little success from a premliminary search on the internet. You appear very knowledgable of the events of this era. Just wondering if you have heard or read and accounts of robberies after the reported deaths of BC and SK that you thought look liked their past work? I would think Pinkerton Agency would have these kinds of records...Which leads me to ask if Pinkerton ever suspected BC and or SK in any robberies in the US after 1909?

TM

To Jerry and or Buck: Who would I contact to review Pinkerton Files that covered the 1909 through say 1925 era?

Jerry Nickle

Ghost Town Bob sent me the April 17, 1912 Standard article and I thank him.
I would very much like to read Michael Bells analysis of this article. Maybe Ghost Town Bob, Dan Buck or Michael Bell will send me the analysis.

Daniel Buck

TM,

The Pinkerton archives are at the Library of Congress. They are raw information files, pertaining to whatever came to the Pinkertons' attention. That is, to be read with care.

Another option is two books by Richard Patterson, THE TRAIN ROBBERY ERA: AN ENCYCLOPEDIC HISTORY (1991) and HISTORICAL ATLAS OF THE OUTLAW WEST (1985).

Two things to consider. First, the authorities sometimes attribute unsolved crimes to famous outlaws. (Jesse James used to complain about it.) Second, the basic operational aspects of bank and train robberies are pretty much the same, no matter who is the bandit -- horses, guns, element of surprise, getaway plan, etc.

Dan

Daniel Buck

Horse Creek Cowboy,

You zeroed in on the essence of doing facial comparisons, look for differences, not similarities.

One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK in the Fort Worth Five portrait.

Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed; WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine. SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is different. And so on.

Dan









Anonymous

Jerry:

It seems odd that Mr. Buck does not want to share (prove) his information about Etta's watch. If he (actually?) has written information from, was it Tiffany's, what in the world is the reason for not showing it. Does it contain military secrets, or information only Mr. Buck can understand, or is it a tale he made up to support something he wrote?

Or was the whole tale just "reportedly" said?

Why not ask him?

Anonymous

"One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK in the Fort Worth Five portrait."

And I thought that was only done to the photo of poor Mr. Zimmer. Shows how an old cowboy can be wrong.

Have the cows come home yet?

Anonymous

Hey Big D, if you think Jerry is (shall we say) cheating, why not write his wife, or (co-author?), and ask them. It appears you may have done this to Lula's co-author, maybe Jerry has one too. It is worth a shot.

And for "YOU" to accuse another historian of using false or unverified information! By the way, if this was an operation to make Zimmer look like Butch, you would of course had the same comments? But be careful, this may have only been reportedly done.

A C

"Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed; WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine. SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is different. And so on" From Dbuck, who else!

Clear something up here please. Is our "expert" who has a record of proven information, second to none, explaing the similarities between Long and Longabaugh or Zimmer and Cassidy?

I still think Captain Smith (captain of the Titanic) should, like Dbuck does, tell us what he knows about avoiding ice bergs.

Come on Daniel, give us a break. Give it up. Let Jerry show, one way or another, what he can do. You did.

AC

Zeke

Anonymous,

We get it. You don't like Mr. Buck. Enough already. You may have noticed everyone (as far as I can tell) is trying to ignore your comments. You bring nothing to the debate. Please stop.
I, for one, am enjoying the relatively civil debate here. Again, you bring nothing to it. Others, including critics of Mr. Buck, do.

I do not agree with Mr. Buck's characterization of the forensic analysis as I know Dr. McCullough personally and know him to be a qualified forensic anthropologist and professor of the subject. If he says the facial structures are very similar, then I believe him as he is the most qualified person I know of to make that assessment.
Despite that, I think it is highly unlikely that WHL is the SK for the various historical reasons mentioned. It would be a great story if true, and I hope somehow it is, but I really doubt it at this point. I will be quiet now because I have nothing else to add.

Anonymous

Disintrested Observer (AKA D.B) said; Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah. I am sure his credentials are impeccable, and that he is a good scientist.
Dr. John McCullough, who has long experience as a forensic anthropologist. At a glance, photos of Sundance and Long don't look strikingly alike, but when transparencies are matched up, the images seem to fuse into the face of one very wanted man. "It's a perfect match, almost a perfect match," McCullough said.
McCullough took it a step further, measuring all their features. He calculated a mathematical match .99. "Which is astounding," he said. "I had never expected to get even that close."

New

Being new to all this, could someone explain what this Dan Buck has done, that gives him the right to be so judgemental agaisnt Jerry Nickle. Especially before Nickle has completed his effort. Doesn't Nickle deserve a fair shake. Seems like Mr. Buck and others know a lot.

AC

Mr. Zeke says: You don't like Mr. Buck.

I commend you for defending Mr. Buck. Now may I point out a thing or two. I would hate to guess how many different folks use your "anonymous".

"Liking" Buck? Most have not met him. Have you considered, it is not "him" but what he "does" that is behind all this! If you would read some of the "factual" tactics done by "your" Buck, you might figure that out.

Are you aware of the Parker family members he has bad-mouthed, chased away by advising them that he knows more about their family,(by reported info) than they do. If he would conduct himself as the professional, he thinks he is, and indicate some respect for the information others have, comments might be different.

You have every right to defend the individual. But you are wrong and look foolish when you defend his methods. You should realize that being unable to prove his theory, all that is left for someone like him, is to try and make other's look wrong.

Zeke, please stop defending the behavior of one who has achived nothing. It is Jerry's turn.

A C

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