Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Another one of Bobs tall tales. Hes not credible, ignore him.

Ghosttown Bob said, I, for one do not spend all of my spare time on this comment board like some people apparently do. Since I have a life, I don't ever spend more that a half hour a day or so on this.

As Dbuck put it, hes an obscurant, troll, and discussant.


Does anyone know any kind of time frame on these DNA results? I know it says 4-8 weeks, but I've been (eagerly) following this discussion for about a month now and am excited to see the outcome. Not that I don't enjoy watching you fine folks bandy words about, of course, I just wondered if there was any update as to when they will be in.

P.S. Good Luck, Jerry, I can't help but be on your side...it's too exciting not to be.

Gaylen Robison

Hi TM. Now that you mention it, there was at least one bank robbery since 1909 that I know about that involved Harry Longabaugh, it was the crash of 1929. That was when the Duchesne Bank robbed Bill. It is said of him: "He robbed the bank, then the bank robbed him." That is a saying in the family. Thank you friend.


Dear G.B.

I did think to myself that if Cassidy and Sundance were indeed around during the crash of 29 that they must have thought to themselves "if onle we were younger"! We might well would have heard of them resuming old habits!


I met and heard JN last night and saw his passion for the issues. He seemed to me very sincere, and his interest in HL is to find out the truth. Sorry to see all of you "self-interested" folks trying to discredit him. Are not we all looking at history here, where none of us really have all of the facts, and probably never will? The preponderance of evidence I am getting from "folklore" in Duchesne, Wayne, and Emery Counties is pointing to the fact that both Sundance and Butch lived long lives in the US after they supposedly were killed in Bolivia. Why don't we all just wait for the DNA which will end the bickering. Fascinating to think about the books and movies forthcoming if JN is right!


G.R. Please excuse my rush and typo of G.B. above. Typing to fast.

Ghosttown Bob

Fencepost: I also think that Jerry is very sincere and is generally interested in finding the truth. I also think that he is being "fleeced" by a few people that are only interested in using him to make themselves rich and famous. Because of their "encouragement" it has made him blind to some other, just as interesting, possibilities concerning William Long. William Long's story is just as interesting without him being the Sundance Kid. I have no doubt that he was connected in some ways with the "Wild Bunch," and when his real story comes out, it may make for better reading than if he were Harry Longabaugh. Please don't put on blinders and ignore other fascinating possibilities.


G.R. and JN.
Did I read correctly that HWL bore two daughters with Luzernia? Did they survive and are any of their children alive that DNA can be compared to Longabaugh's family in PA if their is difficulty with HWL DNA?

Gaylen Robison

TM. Yes, there is my Mother who is in an assisted living home. She is Viola's daughter (Viola is the first born of Bill Long and Luzernia). There are others. But do to my respect for my cousins privacy and opinions I won't go any further with this, but instead leave it up to Jerry Nickle and his assistants to decide what to do about it. They have spent a fortune and a lot of time searching for the answers and don't plan on giving up until the job is finished. As far as I'm concerned, the photo transparencies are more convincing than a DNA result read to me. Glad you brought it up friend.


I must admit what a pleasure it has been of late to read real comments made by real people. And by those that demonstrate a rather rare quality today, respect shown for others.

Thank you.


The wise one

Has anyone actually seen a sample of Sundance's handwriting?


To Gaylen Robinson:

On February 17, you stated:

"Here's a puzzle for you skeptics and doubters. Fact #1. William Henry Long married Luzernia Allred Morrell. Their first born was a daughter named Viola. Viola grows up and gets married.
"Viola's first born is Elva. Elva is my mother. She is still alive."

According to the gravemarker, Luzernia would have been 40 when she married Long. I would assume that Viola was born between 1894 and 1904, because I doubt that she bore children after she turned 50. So, Sundance left not only his wife and her children, but also his own children when he took off with Etta place to South America. I'm I correct in that?

Daniel Buck


In reference to three of your posts:

(1) 12:48 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re p. 37, Meadows (1994), that SK&EP were in Buffalo in February 1901: we relied on two Pinkerton memos. A July 29, 1902, New York memo discussing their activities in February 1901, says that they were treated for medical reasons in Buffalo and New York. Second, an April 3, 1902, Philadelphia memo says that "It is believed that [Sundance] was in hospital last summer 1901 in Buffalo, New York." The Pinkerton writer, qualifying his statement with "It is believed," was off in his surmise about when in 1901 the visit happened. Yet another note, undated, indicates that SK was also treated in Buffalo in May 1902. A reasonable conclusion: SK was treated in Buffalo twice, February 1901 and May 1902.

(2) 1:06 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re the Buenos Aires Standard story: The clipping was discovered by Mike Bell, not me. Bell has published two articles about it in the WOLA Journal (vol. IV, no. 4, Summer 1995, and vol. IX, no. 1, Spring 2000).


Daniel Buck

(3) 10:38 a.m. March 1, 2009, re the watch purchase: In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.

The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements. Context is everything.


Gaylen Robison

Sheri. Viola was born June 1895. Her Sister within a couple of years later. You have summed it up real close. He was gone for about a decade. In the mean time he provided for his Utah family. They were not abandoned. When he did come back he was a very kind father and husband and later a very kind uncle and grandfather. I will repeat what I have said before: My Mother who is still alive remembers him as "the kindest man I have ever known".
Thank you kindly Sheri.

Jerry Nickle

The July 29, 1902 Pinkerton memo you refer does not cover the period before Feb 20, 1901. It does not say they were in New York City before that date. You and all the other writers to date have assumed it included the period before Feb 20, 1901, but it does not. It does not say Butch was in New York City at all in 1901. The memo says BS&E stayed at Mrs Taylors boarding house but that would have been the first part of 1902. The April 3. 1902 memo states it is believed they visited the Buffalo hospital in the summer of 1901 not Jan or Feb of 1901.

Jerry Nickle

After the Aug 29, 1900 Tipton train robbery The Pinkertons detective agency assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. A few weeks after the robbery he was ordered to go to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry. At the Carlisle ranch near Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths.
The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342) This would mean it was not quite winter yet so probably it was November. Following the outlaws trail to Bluff City Utah Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City. (Siringo 346) This had to have been Nov or Dec 1900.

Jerry Nickle

Siringo then went back north to Hanksville where he received orders to go to Circleville Utah Where Butchs family lived to see what he could discover there. On his way to Circleville he had to take a detour because of snow. Siringo 348. This was probably Dec 1900 or Jan 1901. From Circleville he was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico. In Alma Siringo discovered Butch was not in there so he left Alma and was soon in Frisco New Mexico. In Frisco Siringo discovered Butch and eight other outlaws were then camped forty miles southwest of Frisco where Butch had established a Robbers Roost or rendezvous of outlaws (Siringo 355) Butch was here in Jan and Feb 1901. Not in New York City buying a beautiful gold watch for Etta.
When Spring arrived Butch was seen in Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe in May 1901. (Pinkerton criminal history No. 1497).

Jerry Nickle

In a speech before the chiefs of police William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were among the robbers of the Wagner Montana train on July 3 1901. This means Butch never went to Argintina at all in 1901. In July 1901 Sundance was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming. (Pinkerton Memo Mar 1, 1902) This means Sundance returned to the USA after he deposited his Winnemucca loot in the bank in Buenos Aires in March 1901.
Because the Pinkerton files clearly show Butch and Sundance were in the USA in 1901 I will consider all South American documents showing they were there in 1901 as fake.
If you can show me differently, by using the Pinkerton Files or primary sources such as Charlie Seringo, I will then take that into consideration.

Jerry Nickle

Do you consider Mike Bells Feb 27, 2009 Buenos Aires Standard story credible?

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