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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Zeke

Mr. Nickle,
On further investigation, Ms. Ernst (unfortunately) doesn't cite a particular Pinkerton document. It seems possible (likely even) that there may be more than one relevent document with contradictory information in the Pinkerton archives. So there's really not much to go on in terms of professional misconduct, at least given what I can see. It may not be totally convincing research but it is no worse than what you propose to do in ignoring contradictory documents in your forthcoming book.

Anonymous

Oh Mr. Zeke,

Does your need of "context" refer to having a lot of other prople's opinions? Probably, more inaccurate than not? Dillinger, Sundance, anyone you want, I would guess their is an abundance of "context" available. My guess is the HH was trying to illustrate the difference in what is probably close to the truth snd one that is not. Say a "historian" uses one of them in a future publication, do you now have context?

Some would still hope to read about what really happened. Try reading Harv Murdock's book about his Grandfather, Elzy Lay. His context .... he was there. Facts Sir not based on what someone has said or written.

Anonymous

For a 'disintrested Observer" you seem to be wasting a lot of ink.

Zeke

Anon.:
Mr. Murdock's book is in the mail.

Go ahead and pick and choose your accounts of what "really happened." Facts are not based on what you say or choose to believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter (not that I doubt his account, I haven't even read his book yet).
I'm done with this discussion. It has become completely asinine. Neither you nor I know for sure what the happened in 1901 or 1908 and we probably never will. You may choose to put your faith in one account over another while I do not. While that may clarify things in your own mind, it does nothing to convince me or anyone else that your purported critical thinking and intuitive skills have identified what "really happened." Your condescending, arrogant, and laughable belief that you have a monopoly on truth has become more than tiresome. The anonymity of the internet forum certainly seems to bring out the worst in people (perhaps myself included).

Jerry Nickle

There is only one Pinkerton memo that refers to the Buffalo hospital and that memo states they were there in the summer of 1901 not Jan 1901.

Zeke

"For a 'disintrested Observer" you seem to be wasting a lot of ink."

At the risk of speaking for someone else:
"Disinterested" in this Context means he isn't taking sides. Yes, it's called "context" and it's important in understanding the English language as well as history. Through context we may understand meaning (or not).
Now I'm really done.

Zeke

Jerry Nickle

Every author since Charles Kelly has Butch Sundance and Etta in New York City the first week of Feb 1901. They were not there. What these authors have done is just accept what had been written. The first week of Feb 1901 is the key to this whole mystery, including Etta Place, and I found it.

Anonymous

Disintrested Observer
So, do you consider Kerry Ross Boren an "Historian?"

Kerry Ross Boren has authored numerous books and published articles in many periodicals, including the Chicago Tribune, National Geographic, and Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, France. He is the founder of many associations, including the National Center and Association for Outlaw and Lawman History (NOLA) and Western Historical Research Associates. He was the recipient of the 1976 Bicentennial Award from Cambridge University for his contribution to research. As a motion picture consultant, he has worked on many films, including Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Against a Crooked Sky. He assisted Alex Haley with research on his books Roots and Queen.

Anonymous

What Zeke states. "Facts are not based on what you say or choose to believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter"

Anon says the following. "Facts Sir are not based on what someone has said or written."

Before you ride into the sunset Mr. Zeke, would you like to compare the above two statements?

I humbly offer a thought. The argument against Mrs. Ernst is not at her knowledge of "history". No one absolutely "knows". I believe the issues here are more in "accuracy of what is written" not knowledge. Like "heading west from St.Paul,MN., then nearing Duluth. The Malta robbers all standing around with empty rifles. Mrs. Ernst saying, the trail was lost at the Mississippi. (she did not say where one river met another) Her first book, saying Harv Logan's three brothers were his cousins. (corrected in her new book) Again giving a wrong publishing date for Lula Betenson's book. There are others.

Zeke, this isn't "putting faith" in anyone, it is pointing out stupid mistakes that should be caught before publishing.

Hopefully our school books are looked at more carefully. I wonder.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Jerry,

The basic rule is to approach any problem with an open mind. Ignoring those with whom you disagree without at least mentioning their theories in your forth coming book is less than objective. As I see your theory, it is that Sundance and Butch participated in the Malta Robbery. Ergo, every writer who contends otherwise is wrong and has "forged" the sources upon which they rely. For your theory to be correct, Sundance dashes back from Alberta to get married, stays around for several years, deserts his wife, children and step children to participate in various robberies and ride for the WS, proceeds to Texas, New York and Argentina, stays for several years and returned as a loving husband to his wife and children and lived happily ever after.

As has been pointed out, the Pinkertons, like J Edgar Hoover, lovingly collected every rumor. And indeed could not agree with themselves as to the duo's death. They could not even decide as to Harvey Logan's death. All of that needs to be dealt with and not ignored. It is obvious that you have a closed mind. Thus, this old cowboy rides off into the sunset.

Disintrested Observer

It seems that you place a lot of emphasis in proving that Butch Sundance and Etta were still in the U.S. in 1901. I assume that is so that you can place Sundance in Fremont beating up on George Morrell in October of 1901. So then, if it can be shown that they were in Argentina in 1901 then your whole argument falls apart. You know, even if you can "prove" that they didn't go to Argentina until 1902, proving that Sundance and Bill Long are one and the same will still be impossible unless you can provide a document from Bill claiming he was Sundance or visa verse.

Disintrested Observer

Horse Creek Cowboy: Well said, context, context, context.

Bye to all

Ghosttown Bob

Three months and counting.

Anonymous

Disintrested Observer
When the foremost authority on outlaw history doesn't agree with the outlaw historian/researcher, Kerry Ross Boren, he goes to extraordinary lengths to expose the flaws in his research, (excerpts form his web site.) Controversial outlaw researcher, Kerry Ross Boren embellished the version of the incident. (Embellished, liar?) Kerry Ross Boren, an outlaw historian, who confected documents, (Confected, forgery?) to support the tale in an effort to prove that Butch and Sundance had not died in Bolivia.
The main purpose is to discredit Boren, by pointing out flaws in his research. D.O., wouldnt you call this playing discredit the historian?
Of course, as you point out, this tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.

Another ANM

Isn't it astounding, how those that deal in the truth, have no problem with it.

Then there are those, that truth has no meaning for at all. They have no clue how to deal with it. Sadly for these folks, truth is something to be ignored and overlooked.

By now, we all know Mr. Buck "discredits" any and all, who question his opinions. Let's not "dig up" him up again. But ANM's comments are rather accurate.

AANM

Ghosttown Bob

Just like bullies on a playground, you seem to have chased off Zeke, Horse Creek Cowboy, and Disinterested Observer. You should be proud of yourselves for not being able to conduct a civil conversation.

As for your comments concerning Kerry Ross Boren - any credibility that he had disappeared once he murdered his wife. Have you seen his piece on Etta Place or on Butch Cassidy? An interesting weave of fact and fiction created to decieve.

TM

Late to the party...Has the DNA results been posted?

Mr. A Non M

"Ghosttown Bob | 8:04 a.m. Feb. 18, 2009"
"I wish the Deseret News would get their facts straight before they publish stories like this one."

Finally recalled where the boss agreed with me. His statement seems to be saying what has been said about the new Sundance book. It must depend on who says it, for it to be all right. Hope you (GTB) don't "chase" away anyone with your honest and correct statement.

Thanks for agreeing with what I have been saying all along.

Mr. A N M

Ghosttown Bob

TM: No, the DNA results have not been posted. Three months and counting.

Randall

Still Chasing Your "Tales"?
Butch & The Kid's Favorite Condiment.
Fry Sauce From The Oakley Polar King.


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