Comments about ‘Battle brews over neighborhood bars’

When has bars been a threat to children? In my many years I have never seen a bar injure or harm a child or in instences has a child been harmed by any of it partrons. So the child issues are no more than dribble without reason. Children are more likely to harmed in their own homes than the location of a tavern or social establishment. The primary religion of Utah, mormons, are in denial about socializing and drinking, and it is not harmful to children or families. As always though there is the exception, even in religious homes and their church houses where more children are harmed and injured than by drinking members of society. And public intoxication is not harmful to children, infact they probably find it amusing, seeing adults in their primal state. Then as most public taverns are evening time socializing and the children are out wandering the streets makes you wonder about the parents letting their children roam the city at night. It would please me to see more neighborhood taverns, even in residential subdivisions where family and neighbors could gather without the need to drive to one. Even have your block party there.

Why doesn't this article give context to the statement "there are 40 children with 50 yards of Club Jam"? The side street behind the Club is a polygamist enclave so there is a disproportionate number of polygamist children, while the Club's frontage is on 300 West (a wide commercial corridor only a few blocks from the more industrial portions of Beck Street). This article makes it sound like the bar is being forcibly located in a daycare center, like a Starbucks in a hotel lobby.

Bars increase blood alcohol. That's why they are there and why patrons use them. If neighbors don't want people with higher BA around their children, it's a fair argument.

I love the first comment about Mormons being in denial. How many alcohol addicts are there already? I am sure this denial has contributed to all the drunk driving arrests and addiction. Whoever wrote that comment has his/her head in the sand or elsewhere.

Here's the crux of this whole thing: "Though Brown and others have said allowing a bar to sell hard alcohol would increase drunken driving, local law enforcement officials said there aren't numbers to back up those claims."

And the expert officer goes on to say: "The retail outlet responsible for most of those [drunk drivers] is the state liquor store."

And there you have it. If we look at the issue from a dispassionate, logical perspective we see that we could potentially increase local commerence without detriment to public safety. I don't trust groups that yell (Helen Lovejoy style) "THINK OF THE CHILDREN", because it usually means they don't have empirical evidence to support their arguments. MADD does a lot of good in educating the public about the dangers of drunken driving, but they are ultimately dogmatists who appeal to emotion rather than reason. And that's bad for public policy.

I wonder why alcohol isn't illegal. I know they tried to prohibit it once and were unsuccessful. But with all of the data we have now regarding drunk driving and the health detriments it causes it seems like a no brainer.

Why would anyone want to drink or want anyone else to drink?

Can anyone pursuade me differently of how consumption of alcohol benefits an individual, a community or society in general? I'd be interested to hear that argument.

I don't see anything wrong with neighborhood bars. When I was a kid growing up in the inner city, there were neighborhood bars on just about every corner. There were also mom and pop grocery stores as well. Let's go for it! I am tired of driving far away to have a beer or 2.

"When it begins to look to a young person like it's OK to have alcohol it's right in my neighborhood they form more positive attitudes about drinking." And with that statement the ignorance comes out. Education is the point! Just like with anything else children need to be educated on what alcohol really is and what the consequences are when abused. In countries and communities where bars are really a part of the neighborhood and not just placed in seedy areas, they become a place where friends and neighbors get together to socialize, have fun and get to know each other, no matter what the non-drinkers in this state think. I cherish the times when I get together with my friends over a nice glass of wine or spirit, just as our non-drinking friends do over grape juice or punch.

I wonder:
You don't sound like a person who is willing to be persuaded, but here's one reason.

There's the fact that they weren't just "unsuccessful" with banning alcohol - the ban spectactularly backfired. Prohibition caused more violent crime and fed the Mob with work and cash during Prohibition, so there's at least one reason alcohol isn't illegal. But the tone of your post leads me to believe you don't care about pesky little things like history, you just sound like a lot of other really conservative Utahns who want to legislate your morality on everyone else.

I Wonder:

People have been fermenting grain into beer, and grapes into wine, for at least 5,000 years. Civilizations and empires have risen and fallen during that time, but humans around the world have found the consumption of beverages containing alcohol to be enjoyable. It's likely that will continue for another 5,000 years.

You want to know why anyone would want to drink or want anyone else to drink? I would recommend stopping by the new wine store on 300 West and asking for a recommendation.

This is an example of modern society's emphasis on self-gratification. Children must be protected, and putting bars in residential neighborhoods is not the way to do it. If this Country does not return to the values that made it great (temperance, honesty, respect for others) our society will continue to deteriorate.

I own a place and live within a block from the new Club Jam. I think it is great for the neighborhood. I realize Utah is known for it's large families, but times are changing. Not everyone has children!!! Why should our lives be dictated by those who do?? This is a non-issue in practically every state but here. I am a transplant from the east coast, and have happily lived here for ten. I am so tired of the debate over private clubs. The bottom line: our economy sucks and we need to do anything to stimulate it. People going to these supposed immoral establishments are honest, hardworking, taxpaying citizens. Please stop wasting tax payer dollars with this infantile debate and let adults be adults. It is the job of the parents to protect their children from the ills of society. Children should not be running around in the streets unsupervised anyway. If I want to walk to Jam and enjoy a Martinti then I should be able to.

I live in the neighborhood where the Jam bar is located, and so far there have not been any problems with it as it is. However, if they are granted a hard liquor license, things could change. My husband is in the Salt Lake City Mobile Watch, and he goes out on DUI sweeps almost every weekend. He will be watching this place with great interest, and I am sure that if any patrons of this bar step out of line, the police will be there immediately. I don't drink, so this doesn't really impact me until there are noise problems or drunken and disorderly conduct, but as long as the management of the bar is making sure that these do not create problems for me, I am perfectly fine with them being there.

What makes you all think that you know what is best for children. If I were you, I would worry about your own children and let the others raise their children the way they want. Maybe, you can place your children in a bubble so that reality won't harm them.

WHat about the husband that shot his mormon wife in the parking lot of the ward house? What about the Children that witnessed that atrocity!Talk about detrimental to a child's well-being!

Using ABC's logic, the existence of ward houses damages a child's psychological health.

Gary, did the wardhouse serve up a few guns with the ammo and teach the guy to shoot his wife or do you just enjoy taking cheapshots?

Or are you saying the bars don't (or won't if the zoning is changed) serve up the alcohol that gets people drunk so they beat their wife and kids and spend the rent money on their addiction?

Mormons, you can't bag on those that love their alcohol. Alcohol lovers, don't take it out on a religion.
Even in NYC we came to the understand that bars are not good. Yes, we must allow bars, but to have them placed near any school is ridiculous.
Mayor Guliani made laws and it significantly decreased crime in Manhattan.
Nobody should tell you what to do, but you should consider others when deciding where to place your bar. You don't have a religious obligation, but you do have a moral obligation to place the bar in a place that will not cause harm to those who did not choose to go there.

Cbird, we must all worry about how all children in this community are being raised. Those children will grow up to have impact on all of our lives, so we better care about them.

What I find most interesting about all of this is the "concept" that a bar is being introduced into a neighborhood. The location of Club Jam has been a bar in that neighborhood for decades! It was a bar long before most of the current residents were ever there. If one didn't want their children exposed to the business of a bar..they probably should have not moved in next to a bar.

Why is this even an issue? I'm not familiar with the area this establishment is in but that's not important. Has the owner been negligent? When was the last time he served a minor in his bar? It seems like the local gentry is in a snit because the bar might need remodeling.

It's always better to explain to your children that not all people share the same values but that doesn't make them bad people. Usually, the kids are smarter than the parents anyway. They'll grow up just fine.