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Published: Wednesday, Feb. 4 2009 2:07 a.m. MST

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An observation

Just a thought. If we keep encouraging men with men, women with women, and abortion...after three decades there won't be many democrats left.
Why, they'll have to import more democrats from other countries.
Wait...never mind.

Disappointed

I am so disappointed with so many of you who claim to be of my faith. Where are the attempts to mend wounds? Where are the attempts to treat all people with the dignity they deserve? Let's stop the childish "I'll stop when they stop" attitude I am seeing here.

Honestly, have you ever been in a situation similar to what a homosexual goes through? While I am not gay, I was labeled one in jr. high school, and it stuck with me through high school. I was harrassed and mistreated for so long. I know what it is like, and I would take the mistreatment I got for being a mormon over the way homosexuals are treated any day.

Back up

I think before Gay Rights organizations start asking for the support of the LDS church here in Utah, they should consider an apology for their behavior first and foremost. To demand, and unabashadely expect the church to support them after the way they were treated is beyond reasonable. The Gay Rights organizations, NOT the LDS church, has quite a bit of PR work to do.

alex

It bothers me when gays compare their movement to the actions of Martin Luther King. Being gay is an action not a skin color.

I guess it stems from their belief that they are born that way. I think that if the gay movement it to be crushed, we have to crush the idea that they have no control over their actions. Its a choice.

Anonymous

Dear "Democracy in Action":

Actually, something additional I wish the Des News had included is the information that, yes, the "Common Ground" campaign DOES intend to phase out Amendment three, which protects marriage. One of the bills in the package clearly states that it nullifies "the second part of Amendment 3" -- which says homosexuals cannot be granted the legal equivalent of marriage -- because that part of it happens to be inconvenient to them. Utahans need to know this isn't about health care -- it's about slowly getting rid of the marriage amendment.

JD

Sadly, as the argument goes on from both sides, today hundreds of young gay teenagers will contemplate suicide -- and some will succeed. The petty comments from both sides of this argument deny the basic fact that due to the way our society treats gay individuals, many grow up with such a severe sense of self loathing that taking their own life seems the only acceptable solution. Until we begin to treat all people with respect, our society will continue to suffer the consequences of the lost potential, lost productivity and lost spirits that our ignorance and intolerance encourage. We are all one people. We live in one nation. We are all children of God. Can we please start acting like it?

tired

While I understand the hurt that has risen over these past months on both sides of the debate, it is important to note that in this state, it will be unlikely that any 'common ground' initiative will be supported. I do not believe that being 'gay' is only a choice. Having friends who struggle with same gender attraction, I see them work each day to overcome their specific trial, and while some may never marry they take peace that they are following what they know to be right. I am sure there are many in the GLBT community who would dissagree with this thinking. It is how it is. However, in todays economy, I think better time would be spent focusing on programs that will benefit all citizens, and not pouring money into something that is so obviously wrong. Civil liberties are enjoyed, and to compare this movement to historical ones in the past (African Americans, women) is simply insulting. You have the right to voice your opinion, isn't that evidence enough?

Religious can't help you...

Homosexuals don't understand that people who believe in the God of the Old or New Testaments can not support them. To do so would invite upon them the same condemnation and eventual destruction that awaits homosexuals. While some sudo-religious people may join your cause, such a stance can only be possible by a rejection of their most fundamental beliefs. The only references to homosexuality in scripture utterly condemn the practice to the very death of those who indulge in that abominable sin. Homosexuals have the free will to reject the commandments of God and persecute the people of God, but they will only find frustration in seeking the approval of God or His people. So, good luck with that.

Svoboda

To JD: How we treat gays? I don't treat them any differently than anyone else. Most of the people I associate with do the same. What is the basis for your assertion about suicides among gays? A study or report?

As far as respect, I can respect others in many ways. I work with a gay and our sexual preferences are not discussed. We are friends and I esteem his work ethic. However, if confronted with his sexual orientation, I will not say that everything is okey dokey, when it is not. I can not respect his decision to be gay. So, his private sexual life remains private, just as mine does. What more would you expect?

Also, I don't think he has angst because of what others think. He is a little tougher than that.

Secondly, if as you state and many gays have a low self-esteem, don't assume that it is always because of how others treat them. Consider an alternative suggestion that it is often due to their conflicted decision to accept that an unnatural life style.

Can't even discuss it

Have you noticed that gays will never debate the issue, but immediately move to ad hominem attacks, which consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject. Hence, accusing people of hatred, referencing the black movement or polygamy.

Re: JD

Sadly, homosexual teens, straight teens, and adults of any sexual orientation contemplate suicide - and some will succeed. It is horrifically sad and we should reach out to anyone who is a danger to themselves. I wish we could prevent every suicide.

That being said, I disagree that society is to blame for a "severe self-loathing" of gays and that, if this problem exists, it leads to suicide.

Homosexuals frequently play the "civil rights" card and try to hijack the African-American civil rights movement. If being homosexual is as inherent as being black, why were there not higher suicide rates among those who were treated far, far worse than anything the homosexual community has ever experienced?

Stalwart Sentinel

@Re: Stalwart Sentinel | 7:19 a.m. Feb. 4, 2009

You say "(y)es domestic terrorism is the epitome of tolerance, isn't it?"

Only to the point that labeling an entire group based on the actions of the lowest common denominator (who most likely aren't gay) is accurate. nice try though.

@ can't even discuss it

let's discuss. En arguendo, I'll stay away from 'appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument' so long as you don't base your argument off those beliefs. facts only. sound fair?

we'll start with the indisputable fact that the SCOTUS recognizes marriage as a fundamental right, a guarantee to all citizens of the US, combined with Due Process for states under the 14th Amendment.

To Stalwart Sentinel

Unfortunately, there are those LDS (among others) who are hatful to gays and lesbians... something that had NEVER been approved of, or supported, by our leaders. HOWEVER, there are also those, like yourself, who claim to sustain the leaders of the church yet turn against the very words that come out of their mouths. A prophet of God has said that gay marriage is something that we MUST fight and that it WILL hurt our nation and has the potential to take away our rights to practice our religion as we see fit in the future. I think it is sad that you can not see this and that you profess to follow the prophet when you openly go against his counsel.

The parable of the 10 virgins comes to mind here.

Re: Stalwart Sentinel

You've got to be kidding me...Did you miss Baker v. Nelson, the case where the SCOTUS upheld the constitutionality of gay marriage bans? Nice try, though.

You really think those that feel passionately enough about the issue to send white powder in envelopes, vandalize private property, along with beating, threatening, and harassing Yes on 8 contributors and supporters aren't gay? Just a bunch of straight folks that are so outraged that they've turned to domestic terrorism. Give me a break. I'll glady label the entire group as domestic terrorists until one of them stands up to condemn the actions of the "lowest common denominator." Until they do, they lowest common denominator is, in fact, the common denominator.

mark

Domestic Terrorism, that's RICH coming from Mormons.
You run boy's ranches and West Jordon Academies which Kidnap gay teens in the night, torture them tying wool blankets around their bodies, force them to run laps in the freezing night temperatures in their underwear or nude.
mormon gulag is what these hideous CAMPS are called by gay survivors who spent 3 months to 2 years against their will housed with JUNKIES, and no outside observers, no medical personel, kept from contacting their parents for 4 weeks, and the websites of these HOLES instruct parents to IGNORE any complaints of abuse.

Anonymous

Why don't you publish your GAY-BASHING pamphlet here, that you PROUDLY printed for DECADES, to Young Men?

mark

Buttars is the SADISTIC MONSTER who ran your gulags.

bb

radicalism in any sub culture, religion, or organization makes me sick. grouping all gays into that catagory isn't a fair assumption.

also, marriage is more than a "christian" ideal, it's also a legal matter, a legal standing. and it's not like there trying to take away your birthday, they just want equal-marriage rights.

Stalwart Sentinel

@ To Stalwart Sentinel | 12:37

your dilemma is resolved: the Prophet has told us we must support Prop 8 spiritually (which I do) but can oppose it civilly (which I also do). Regarding your statement that "(a) prophet of God has said that gay marriage is something that we MUST fight and that it WILL hurt our nation" is taken as true but for some of us, the greater danger manifests itself when individuals propose to usurp civil liberties from others in order to pursue their religious agenda. Allowing others to live as they see fit while you live a life filled with the Gospel will engender understanding, compassion, and soften hearts, rather than harden them.

@ Re: Stalwart Sentinel | 12:49

please read the post carefully. I said marriage was a fundamental right. then I juxtaposed it with the 14th amendment.

Let me quote the entire SCOTUS opinion of Baker v Nelson: "The appeal is dismissed for want of a substantial federal question."

It is a state issue but marriage is a fundamental right. Hence, the 14th amendment secures the right equaling gay marriage. pick your poison: due process, privileges or immunities, or equal protection

Stalwart Sentinel

@Re: Stalwart Sentinel | 12:49 p.m

follow up...

I think it very plausible that those sending the white powder could be kids pulling a prank, albeit a very offensive and illegitimate one. kids call in bomb threats, etc... all the time. you think disinterested fence-sitters aren't going to try to get their money's worth out of us who are involved in the fray?

To be sure, some are gay rights activists and most would be best advised to stop; however, there is a clear danger in sweeping all the peaceful rallies and protests into one lump sum with the few extreme outliers. Sorry but that last paragraph demonstrates your penchant to illicitly skew the scenario.

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