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Comments about ‘McLellin journal finally is located’

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Published: Thursday, Jan. 22 2009 1:09 a.m. MST

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just thinking II

very good article thank you. I was impressed with Oliver and David's testimoney

Crathes

If the Mormon church actually has prophets (15 as they claim), why were none able to see through Hoffman's claims, lies, etc? It appears not a one of them was inspired even a little on this issue. Hmmm... There's a confidence builder!

C.Terry

What a great service Brent Ashworth has performed for all of us in locating this journal. Despite all the disagreements with the church by William McLellin, the important point is that he could not refute the account of the witnesses to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Thank you, Brent. I'll buy a copy as soon as it is available.

Interested

I wish that the article would have mentioned where the notebook was found. Where has it been all these years, and how did Ashworth uncover it? What is the provenance of the notebook?

To Crathes

Why were the original 12 Apostles of Christ not able to see through the betrayal of Judas? It appears not a one of them was inspired even a little on this issue. Hmmm... There's a confidence builder!

PaulW

Crathes,

"Prophets" are yet just human. They make mistakes. This is part of the problem a man like McLellin ended up having with Joseph Smith and the Church. Our claim of living prophets isn't a claim of infallibility.

Tracy Y. Andersen

Ah, the "if...then" argument.
"If" the Brethren had been "directed" by the Father to "do something" about Mark Hofmann, "then" they would have been interfering with his agency to do what he had set out to do.
Our agency is one of the, if not the greatest, things that Father allows us, and He will not interfere with that, do what we may, willy-nilly. That's our responsibility. Not Father's, to "interfere."

Good Point

Just wanted to weigh in on the "Prophets vs. Hoffman" issue.

Even if the President of the Church announced that he had receieved divine communication that Mark Hoffman was a forger, it would not have made any difference. The Hoffman documents would still be around somewhere, and he may have even committed greater frauds. (I've heard that some of his forged documents are still circulating).

The bottom line is, an official Church pronouncement would not make any bit of difference to people like you, Crathes.

DONT think about it

If you want to know all the answers ask a MORMON BISHOP!!!!!! thank you for reading this LOL

BobP

Hoffman's schemes went down when he became too greedy. Some here asked why the Prophet didn't see through his scheme. When one of his bombs webt of and injured him, I rather feel that God took care of that detail himself.

Observer from afar

Well, Crathes, you continue to perpetuate the unlearned and uninformed type of queery often cited. So, how come the prophets didn't see the coming forth of things like the Internet and cell phones, etc., and do something about preventing them from ever happening? It doesn't work that way, does it? Agency is the key factor.

Seems to me Brent Ashworth has shown his dedication to finding the missing pieces of a puzzle. Good on ya, Brent!

Interventionist God

BobP says:
"Hoffman's schemes went down when he became too greedy. Some here asked why the Prophet didn't see through his scheme. When one of his bombs webt of and injured him, I rather feel that God took care of that detail himself."

Be careful with your logic, BobP. If God were to intervene in this matter, wouldn't it have made more sense to let one of those bombs go off on Mr. Hoffman before a mother and father lost their lives?

Tracy Anderson:
If God doesn't want us to interfere with events as they unfold, then why did he give us free agency?

Also, the author of this article clearly cherry picked excerpts of the notebook in favor of the BofM and Joseph Smith's veracity. What is glaringly missing are McLellin's reasons for leaving Joseph and the church. Like any seeker of truth, I want all the information. When a 'news' source carefully picks and chooses information to share, then it ceases to be news and morphs into propoganda, and no longer can be trusted for news.

Svoboda

How nice that this was found. Interesting that McLellin had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but yet, couldn't hold it together and left the Church. He couldn't see the bigger picture and only accepted parts.

Carbon Date It

Carbon date it. It's just takes a small piece. Have an expert confirm the binding process is reflective of the times in which it was written.

essay

Wow - how many times in the scriptures are prophets fooled/deceived by other men? No where in the scriptures is there a definition of a prophet that includes "shall not be deceived by men".

What a Crock

It is all nonsense.

kathyn

Prophets are not people who see all and know all. In fact, most of the time when they receive revelation on something, it's after long sessions of prayer on a certain question they have that pertains to the whole church. They receive line upon line and precept upon precept. That's how it's always been with the prophets.

Think

I've read Lyndon Cook's book on Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer. That's a good read. He (Whitmer) was adamant in his "testimony" of the Book of Mormon even though he thought Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet. Whitmer, like McLellin, had problems with some of the later doctrinal developments such as polygamy. Both of these men were attracted to Mormonism's simple restorationist message in 1830 but were turned off by things like Polygamy. Same for many other early influential Mormon leaders like Oliver Cowdery and others (William Law, William Marks, etc.).

So the question that should be asked is this: Why were so many of the leading elders (3 witnesses, many of the original apostles, etc.) turned away?

Could there have been some good reasons for the large number of disaffections? Have you read what they had to say?

Oliver Cowdery, for instance, was excommunicated in 1838 and the minutes of his "trial" are available on line. He was accused of charging Joseph Smith with adultery in the Fanny Alger affair. But here's the rub, there really was a Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith either had an affair with her or married her. True.

BobP

Interventionist:

If Hoffman had been killed by the bomb the LDS church would be suspect for having done it. This way was perfect. It got the murderer put away. His victims will not lose their reward.

Great find!

This is a great find. I'm always excited to hear about new discoveries about this period of time. My ancestors were friends of the Smiths in Vermont and in New York and my 4th great grandfather and his seven surviving adult children with families joined the church in 1830 in Kirtland. They knew all of these people very well. None of mine left the church in those turbulent days. I remember my 4th greatgrandfather being asked about Joseph, and he replied that he is a prophet. I suspect that Brother McLellin felt like many that Joseph had fallen as a prophet. But God helped people discover the scope of their strength and breadth of the testimonies. So much good was accomplished. And I'm sure that all of them know much more today than they did at that time and are all engaged in the great work on the other side. I hope and trust this is so.

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