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McLellin journal finally is located
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just thinking II | 5:53 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
very good article thank you. I was impressed with Oliver and David's
testimoney
Crathes | 6:20 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
If the Mormon church actually has prophets (15 as they claim), why were none
able to see through Hoffman's claims, lies, etc? It appears not a one of
them was inspired even a little on this issue. Hmmm... There's a
confidence builder!
C.Terry | 6:38 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
What a great service Brent Ashworth has performed for all of us in locating this
journal. Despite all the disagreements with the church by William McLellin, the
important point is that he could not refute the account of the witnesses to the
truth of the Book of Mormon. Thank you, Brent. I'll buy a copy as soon as
it is available.
Comments continue below
Interested | 6:53 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I wish that the article would have mentioned where the notebook was found.
Where has it been all these years, and how did Ashworth uncover it? What is the
provenance of the notebook?
To Crathes | 7:04 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Why were the original 12 Apostles of Christ not able to see through the betrayal
of Judas? It appears not a one of them was inspired even a little on this
issue. Hmmm... There's a confidence builder!
PaulW | 7:15 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Crathes,
"Prophets" are yet just human. They make mistakes. This is part of the problem a man like McLellin ended up having with Joseph Smith and the Church. Our claim of living prophets isn't a claim of infallibility.
"Prophets" are yet just human. They make mistakes. This is part of the problem a man like McLellin ended up having with Joseph Smith and the Church. Our claim of living prophets isn't a claim of infallibility.
Tracy Y. Andersen | 7:26 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Ah, the "if...then" argument.
"If" the Brethren had been "directed" by the Father to "do something" about Mark Hofmann, "then" they would have been interfering with his agency to do what he had set out to do.
Our agency is one of the, if not the greatest, things that Father allows us, and He will not interfere with that, do what we may, willy-nilly. That's our responsibility. Not Father's, to "interfere."
"If" the Brethren had been "directed" by the Father to "do something" about Mark Hofmann, "then" they would have been interfering with his agency to do what he had set out to do.
Our agency is one of the, if not the greatest, things that Father allows us, and He will not interfere with that, do what we may, willy-nilly. That's our responsibility. Not Father's, to "interfere."
Good Point | 7:44 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Just wanted to weigh in on the "Prophets vs. Hoffman" issue.
Even if the President of the Church announced that he had receieved divine communication that Mark Hoffman was a forger, it would not have made any difference. The Hoffman documents would still be around somewhere, and he may have even committed greater frauds. (I've heard that some of his forged documents are still circulating).
The bottom line is, an official Church pronouncement would not make any bit of difference to people like you, Crathes.
Even if the President of the Church announced that he had receieved divine communication that Mark Hoffman was a forger, it would not have made any difference. The Hoffman documents would still be around somewhere, and he may have even committed greater frauds. (I've heard that some of his forged documents are still circulating).
The bottom line is, an official Church pronouncement would not make any bit of difference to people like you, Crathes.
DONT think about it | 7:48 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
If you want to know all the answers ask a MORMON BISHOP!!!!!! thank you for
reading this LOL
BobP | 8:15 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Hoffman's schemes went down when he became too greedy. Some here asked why
the Prophet didn't see through his scheme. When one of his bombs webt of
and injured him, I rather feel that God took care of that detail himself.
Observer from afar | 8:26 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Well, Crathes, you continue to perpetuate the unlearned and uninformed type of
queery often cited. So, how come the prophets didn't see the coming forth
of things like the Internet and cell phones, etc., and do something about
preventing them from ever happening? It doesn't work that way, does it?
Agency is the key factor.
Seems to me Brent Ashworth has shown his dedication to finding the missing pieces of a puzzle. Good on ya, Brent!
Seems to me Brent Ashworth has shown his dedication to finding the missing pieces of a puzzle. Good on ya, Brent!
Interventionist God | 8:50 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
BobP says:
"Hoffman's schemes went down when he became too greedy. Some here asked why the Prophet didn't see through his scheme. When one of his bombs webt of and injured him, I rather feel that God took care of that detail himself."
Be careful with your logic, BobP. If God were to intervene in this matter, wouldn't it have made more sense to let one of those bombs go off on Mr. Hoffman before a mother and father lost their lives?
Tracy Anderson:
If God doesn't want us to interfere with events as they unfold, then why did he give us free agency?
Also, the author of this article clearly cherry picked excerpts of the notebook in favor of the BofM and Joseph Smith's veracity. What is glaringly missing are McLellin's reasons for leaving Joseph and the church. Like any seeker of truth, I want all the information. When a 'news' source carefully picks and chooses information to share, then it ceases to be news and morphs into propoganda, and no longer can be trusted for news.
"Hoffman's schemes went down when he became too greedy. Some here asked why the Prophet didn't see through his scheme. When one of his bombs webt of and injured him, I rather feel that God took care of that detail himself."
Be careful with your logic, BobP. If God were to intervene in this matter, wouldn't it have made more sense to let one of those bombs go off on Mr. Hoffman before a mother and father lost their lives?
Tracy Anderson:
If God doesn't want us to interfere with events as they unfold, then why did he give us free agency?
Also, the author of this article clearly cherry picked excerpts of the notebook in favor of the BofM and Joseph Smith's veracity. What is glaringly missing are McLellin's reasons for leaving Joseph and the church. Like any seeker of truth, I want all the information. When a 'news' source carefully picks and chooses information to share, then it ceases to be news and morphs into propoganda, and no longer can be trusted for news.
Svoboda | 8:56 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
How nice that this was found. Interesting that McLellin had a testimony of the
Book of Mormon, but yet, couldn't hold it together and left the Church. He
couldn't see the bigger picture and only accepted parts.
Carbon Date It | 9:00 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Carbon date it. It's just takes a small piece. Have an expert confirm the
binding process is reflective of the times in which it was written.
essay | 9:06 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Wow - how many times in the scriptures are prophets fooled/deceived by other
men? No where in the scriptures is there a definition of a prophet that
includes "shall not be deceived by men".
What a Crock | 9:19 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
It is all nonsense.
kathyn | 9:20 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Prophets are not people who see all and know all. In fact, most of the time
when they receive revelation on something, it's after long sessions of
prayer on a certain question they have that pertains to the whole church. They
receive line upon line and precept upon precept. That's how it's
always been with the prophets.
Think | 9:28 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I've read Lyndon Cook's book on Book of Mormon witness David Whitmer.
That's a good read. He (Whitmer) was adamant in his "testimony"
of the Book of Mormon even though he thought Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet.
Whitmer, like McLellin, had problems with some of the later doctrinal
developments such as polygamy. Both of these men were attracted to
Mormonism's simple restorationist message in 1830 but were turned off by
things like Polygamy. Same for many other early influential Mormon leaders like
Oliver Cowdery and others (William Law, William Marks, etc.).
So the question that should be asked is this: Why were so many of the leading elders (3 witnesses, many of the original apostles, etc.) turned away?
Could there have been some good reasons for the large number of disaffections? Have you read what they had to say?
Oliver Cowdery, for instance, was excommunicated in 1838 and the minutes of his "trial" are available on line. He was accused of charging Joseph Smith with adultery in the Fanny Alger affair. But here's the rub, there really was a Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith either had an affair with her or married her. True.
So the question that should be asked is this: Why were so many of the leading elders (3 witnesses, many of the original apostles, etc.) turned away?
Could there have been some good reasons for the large number of disaffections? Have you read what they had to say?
Oliver Cowdery, for instance, was excommunicated in 1838 and the minutes of his "trial" are available on line. He was accused of charging Joseph Smith with adultery in the Fanny Alger affair. But here's the rub, there really was a Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith either had an affair with her or married her. True.
BobP | 9:40 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Interventionist:
If Hoffman had been killed by the bomb the LDS church would be suspect for having done it. This way was perfect. It got the murderer put away. His victims will not lose their reward.
If Hoffman had been killed by the bomb the LDS church would be suspect for having done it. This way was perfect. It got the murderer put away. His victims will not lose their reward.
Great find! | 10:00 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
This is a great find. I'm always excited to hear about new discoveries
about this period of time. My ancestors were friends of the Smiths in Vermont
and in New York and my 4th great grandfather and his seven surviving adult
children with families joined the church in 1830 in Kirtland. They knew all of
these people very well. None of mine left the church in those turbulent days. I
remember my 4th greatgrandfather being asked about Joseph, and he replied that
he is a prophet. I suspect that Brother McLellin felt like many that Joseph had
fallen as a prophet. But God helped people discover the scope of their strength
and breadth of the testimonies. So much good was accomplished. And I'm sure
that all of them know much more today than they did at that time and are all
engaged in the great work on the other side. I hope and trust this is so.
How was it discovered? | 10:04 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I agree with an earlier comment...how was it discovered? I would think with the
nature of the Hoffman events, it would be more interesting to hear about how it
was found, where it was, and why no one else found it (like Hoffman). Was it
stuck in some attic? Passed down through family? Behind a false door? To me
the discovery of something lost is a more interesting story... (don't we
all love a good Indiana Jones story?)
LDS Prophets | 10:11 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I have seen so many struggle with their testimony because of the long standing
belief that if the prophet or other leader says it then it inevitably must be
from the Lord. And yet much that has been said tends to be hard to understand or
accept. The reality is that MUCH of what has been said and written over time was
simply a matter of good men doing the best they could in the time and situation
they found themselves in. I have personally felt the spirit confirm in my heart
that it is okay and accepted if I find a leader's opinion does not fit for
me or my family.
There is a huge tension between two competing ideas (paraphrased) -
1. "When the leaders speak the thinking has been done."
2. "We teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."
I think that where particular members come out on this depends on their own personality and make-up. Some truly NEED church direction in most of their daily decisions. Some do not and having to rely on leader's opinion or direction in such a way would actually hurt their testimony and ability to be strong members.
There is a huge tension between two competing ideas (paraphrased) -
1. "When the leaders speak the thinking has been done."
2. "We teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."
I think that where particular members come out on this depends on their own personality and make-up. Some truly NEED church direction in most of their daily decisions. Some do not and having to rely on leader's opinion or direction in such a way would actually hurt their testimony and ability to be strong members.
Provenance | 10:12 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I second the call for provenance. Ashworth is clearly convinced of the
notebook's authenticity. Given his connection to the Hofmann murders (many
think Ashworth may have been the target of Hofmann's third bomb) and the
automatic suspicion of any document related to the forgeries, he must have a
strong reason to think this is the real deal - perhaps the D-News could flesh
out the details of its discovery?
It's ironic and interesting that this thing would come full circle after 25 years.
It's ironic and interesting that this thing would come full circle after 25 years.
Interesting? | 10:29 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
All anyone of us want is the solid truth.
Polygamy | 10:39 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Examining the Witness
McLellin insisted that Emma Smith confirmed these tales in 1847. Yet this is a strange occurrence�there is virtually no other record of Emma admitting, following Joseph�s death, that he even taught plural marriage. Emma and Joseph Smith III would go to their graves denying that Joseph had anything to do with the practice.
McLellin insisted that Emma Smith confirmed these tales in 1847. Yet this is a strange occurrence�there is virtually no other record of Emma admitting, following Joseph�s death, that he even taught plural marriage. Emma and Joseph Smith III would go to their graves denying that Joseph had anything to do with the practice.
Anonymous | 10:41 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
The "faith promoting" message of this story seems to be that McLellin
retained his testimony of the truth of the Book of Mormon even though he lost
his testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet.
On further consideration, that is really not faith promoting at all. FLDS members have testimonies of the Book of Mormon, too. There are a lot of people who have testimonies of the BOM but who don't believe the current Salt Lake City LDS Church is true, right, or authoritative, let alone infallible!
The fact that McLellin (and many other early apostles and Church leaders) left the Church even while Joseph Smith was alive, shows that many very intelligent men "testified" that Joseph was an adulterer and a "fallen" prophet, at best.
On further consideration, that is really not faith promoting at all. FLDS members have testimonies of the Book of Mormon, too. There are a lot of people who have testimonies of the BOM but who don't believe the current Salt Lake City LDS Church is true, right, or authoritative, let alone infallible!
The fact that McLellin (and many other early apostles and Church leaders) left the Church even while Joseph Smith was alive, shows that many very intelligent men "testified" that Joseph was an adulterer and a "fallen" prophet, at best.
Waiting | 11:03 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
THIS IS TOO INTERESTING...MORE DETAILS PLEASE!
What about | 11:27 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
the early Church Leaders who, after becoming disaffected, CAME BACK? Isn't
that something to be considered also? Putting the emphasis on their
disaffection and disregarding their return would suggest an agenda on the part
of the writer....
Things that make ya go HMMMMMMMMMM......
Things that make ya go HMMMMMMMMMM......
Re: Anonymous | 10:41 | 12:01 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
The testimonies of those who left like McLellin mean no more or less than the
testimonies of those who remained in the Church or who left and later returned.
What the McLellin journal offers is some fascinating insight into McLellin
himself and his relationship with the Church and other Saints. If authentic,
it's a wonderful addition to our knowledge and understanding of early LDS
history.
For an answer | 12:32 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
to interesting - get on your knees
I know people who absolutely know the truthfulness of the church but were not strong in their faithfulness and have dropped out of activity because they knew they were not worthy
I know people who absolutely know the truthfulness of the church but were not strong in their faithfulness and have dropped out of activity because they knew they were not worthy
Pumpy | 12:47 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Re: 10:41
It seems to me that half the members in the early part of LDS church were excommunicated, and then re- baptized later. In the early days you could be excommunicated for voicing your personal and views on any score if they were in the least bit negative.
It seems to me that half the members in the early part of LDS church were excommunicated, and then re- baptized later. In the early days you could be excommunicated for voicing your personal and views on any score if they were in the least bit negative.
Anonymous | 12:49 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
To For an answer,
I have gotten on my knees. The resulting testimony to me is that the LDS Church is not true. I have also known very many people who claimed to know the Church is true and were in positions of authority, but who lied, cheated, and defrauded others in business. Most of them are still active in the Church and holding positions of authority. At the same time, I have known a number of people who dropped out of the Church because they learned it was not true. They were "worthy" in every way when this happened. They were just being honest in their pursuit of knowledge. Many of these friends of mine are no longer members of the Church, or are no longer active, but are as "worthy" as ever. They are good people. Hate to burst your delusional bubble as you try to demonize all those who go inactive or leave the Church, but your delusion is not true.
I have gotten on my knees. The resulting testimony to me is that the LDS Church is not true. I have also known very many people who claimed to know the Church is true and were in positions of authority, but who lied, cheated, and defrauded others in business. Most of them are still active in the Church and holding positions of authority. At the same time, I have known a number of people who dropped out of the Church because they learned it was not true. They were "worthy" in every way when this happened. They were just being honest in their pursuit of knowledge. Many of these friends of mine are no longer members of the Church, or are no longer active, but are as "worthy" as ever. They are good people. Hate to burst your delusional bubble as you try to demonize all those who go inactive or leave the Church, but your delusion is not true.
Truthful | 1:14 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I certainly agree with poster 12:49pm.
I have have had similar experiences nd with those who are in high church called positions, who were the most bigoted, hateful people that I have ever known in my life. It was more than I could handle. I cannot support a liars.
I do not smoke, drink, commit adultery, tell lies about my neighbors, nor pretend to be something I am not. If this is what some of you claim is religion, then I want no part of it.
I really don't care if the McLellin journals are true or not.
I have have had similar experiences nd with those who are in high church called positions, who were the most bigoted, hateful people that I have ever known in my life. It was more than I could handle. I cannot support a liars.
I do not smoke, drink, commit adultery, tell lies about my neighbors, nor pretend to be something I am not. If this is what some of you claim is religion, then I want no part of it.
I really don't care if the McLellin journals are true or not.
To Anonymous | 1:45 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I hear you anonymous. It get's really tiring when, if you don't
believe or agree with someone else on any topic (religion, politics, etc.) then
you are branded as unpatriotic, wicked, etc. All because you have an honest
difference of opinion. That, more than anything, has led me to the same
conclusion that you have reached. No thanks.
Henry Drummond | 1:52 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
I would have liked to have heard about the provenance of this notebook. Do we
know how Ashworth got it?
Hummmmmm???? | 2:36 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Mighty strange that the McLillin journal would suddenly reappear???? Like no one
on earth new where they were? OOOOOHHHH PLEEEEASSSSSEEEEE!!!!!!
Honesty | 2:50 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
TO Anonymous 12:49 and Truthful:
Your testimony should not be based on people.
Because people are imperfect not matter what position they held or hold,
As the scriptures say it is God's Word you should be testing.
Religious History is replete with imperfect people:
Cain
noah, lot (they got drunk)
Abraham wrestling with angels,
joseph's Brothers,
moses (was not allowed to go to proimse land because the things he did)
saul (disobedience),
david (sent someone to his death, to get his wife), solomon (marriages without permission fom god),
Jonah (disobedience)
peter( pride, denial of christ),
Judas,
paul (attacked the saints before conversion),
and there are many, many more.
IT should be no surprise that the prophets Like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and really, all the leaders in the church today are imperfect as well.
But God is not going throw them out but give them every opportunity to repent and work on perfecting their lives.
God must allow us do our works because it our works we will be judged on.
It is truly is a marvelous work and wonder, considering who God has to work with.
Your testimony should not be based on people.
Because people are imperfect not matter what position they held or hold,
As the scriptures say it is God's Word you should be testing.
Religious History is replete with imperfect people:
Cain
noah, lot (they got drunk)
Abraham wrestling with angels,
joseph's Brothers,
moses (was not allowed to go to proimse land because the things he did)
saul (disobedience),
david (sent someone to his death, to get his wife), solomon (marriages without permission fom god),
Jonah (disobedience)
peter( pride, denial of christ),
Judas,
paul (attacked the saints before conversion),
and there are many, many more.
IT should be no surprise that the prophets Like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and really, all the leaders in the church today are imperfect as well.
But God is not going throw them out but give them every opportunity to repent and work on perfecting their lives.
God must allow us do our works because it our works we will be judged on.
It is truly is a marvelous work and wonder, considering who God has to work with.
Clifton | 3:05 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Amazing the hatred towards the Church, but was wondering how many of you ever
read the the gobble-de Gook of the Trinitarians i.e. Protestants, Catholics ect.
Try reading their creeds such as the Nicean, especially the version
(Anathasian). After that, note their behavior and treatment towards Mormons,
especially the group that consider themselves Evangelicals. Top it off with a
historical research as to how these Churches treated minorities in their earlier
days. So, if some of you consider that vaunted members of the LDS Church are
hypocrites, then first look in the mirror, read some choice blogs in the Tribune
and and here in the News then if you are still convinced that only Mormons are
hypoctites, then come back and tell us. Oh, be the way,only cowards post under
the heading of anonymous.
Re: Clifton | 3:39 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
You are something else. Where do you come off thinking you have the right to
make judgments on everyone else's beliefs?? You need to find a life!
Also, who really knows if the McLellin letters are even real, or if they as well have been tampered with or not? None of us know the truth of the matter. Even you if you get down on your knees and pray-- I really doubt you are going to get an answer. The only answer you will get is whatever your mixed up brain wants you to accept.
Also, who really knows if the McLellin letters are even real, or if they as well have been tampered with or not? None of us know the truth of the matter. Even you if you get down on your knees and pray-- I really doubt you are going to get an answer. The only answer you will get is whatever your mixed up brain wants you to accept.
Bill | 3:40 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Yes, we'd all like to know how Ashcroft came into possession of this
journal. Obviously, Ashcroft is not revealing that yet, because the source may
lead to other valuable finds.
If an old miner finds a few gold nuggets in a stream, does he go and reveal this to everyone? Not unless there is a law in place for establishing rights to the mining claim, like the US Mining Law of 1878. There is no such law respecting finding historical documents of value, so Ashcroft is keeping mum. It's his right.
If an old miner finds a few gold nuggets in a stream, does he go and reveal this to everyone? Not unless there is a law in place for establishing rights to the mining claim, like the US Mining Law of 1878. There is no such law respecting finding historical documents of value, so Ashcroft is keeping mum. It's his right.
Where is the man? | 3:56 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Well, lucky for us all, Mr Lambert has found his way to this blog yet. I'm
however, waiting.
Anonymous | 4:19 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
To Honesty,
By your forgiving standards, we should recognize that all the Popes from Peter onward were also just imperfect men doing the best they could in the original, true, one and only Holy Catholic Church! There really was NO Great Apostasy and, therefore, no need for a Restoration!
Sounds accurate to me!
By your forgiving standards, we should recognize that all the Popes from Peter onward were also just imperfect men doing the best they could in the original, true, one and only Holy Catholic Church! There really was NO Great Apostasy and, therefore, no need for a Restoration!
Sounds accurate to me!
Tired of the Dribble | 4:20 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Why are any of us, including me, wasting our time talking to ourselves, instead
of waiting for Ashcrot's defense that the document is accurate, and
legitimate forensic scientists validate or deny his claim that the document is
authentic.
For: "Think" (1 of 2) | 4:35 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
�Think | 9:28 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009 -
��..(cut down for space)
�.I've read Lyndon Cook's book on Book of Mormon
witness David Whitmer. Whitmer, like McLellin, had problems with some of the
later doctrinal developments such as polygamy. Same for many other early
influential Mormon leaders like Oliver Cowdery and others (William Law, William
Marks, etc.). So the question that should be asked is this: Why were so many of
the leading elders (3 witnesses, many of the original apostles, etc.) turned
away?�
Fair enough question, "Think".
However, here's on for you.
Of the Three Witnesses, ALL 3 either left the Church (David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery) or failed to go with them to Utah (Martin Harris).
HOWEVER.....ALL 3 NEVER denied their claim that they had heard a voice from heaven declare to them that the Book of Mormon was from God and that they had also seen an angel descend from the sky and they held the gold plates Joseph Smith testified of.
Why is that? They NEVER denied it even though they, for a time, did not like Joseph.
Why?
Fair enough question, "Think".
However, here's on for you.
Of the Three Witnesses, ALL 3 either left the Church (David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery) or failed to go with them to Utah (Martin Harris).
HOWEVER.....ALL 3 NEVER denied their claim that they had heard a voice from heaven declare to them that the Book of Mormon was from God and that they had also seen an angel descend from the sky and they held the gold plates Joseph Smith testified of.
Why is that? They NEVER denied it even though they, for a time, did not like Joseph.
Why?
redhat | 4:37 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
It is sad the article does not mention that the LDS church had in its files the
extant McLellin collection at the same time Hoffman was trying to get money for
a false version. Had LDS leaders known, the scam and murders would have never
occurred.
For: Think (2 of 2) | 4:40 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
And, not only did none of the Three Witnesses never deny their claim to their
confidence in the divinity of the Book of Mormon, 2 of the 3 later joined the
Church again; Oliver Cowdery was re-baptized of his own free will and Martin
Harris emigrated to Utah. He's actually buried near Smithfield, UT, just
north of Logan.
For every logical argument you have as to why the claims of the LDS church are false, I can show you another logical argument for why it is true.
So what lesson can we learn from this?
Simple.
The REAL source of truth is God. Why don't you go ask Him?
I already did.
Good luck.
For every logical argument you have as to why the claims of the LDS church are false, I can show you another logical argument for why it is true.
So what lesson can we learn from this?
Simple.
The REAL source of truth is God. Why don't you go ask Him?
I already did.
Good luck.
Anonymous | 4:50 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
to For:
Here is your answer: For the same reason all those thousands of FLDS and other cult polygamists still believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God! Because religious fanatics are easily fooled into believing many things, and they find it hard to keep it all straight in their supersitious minds.
Here is your answer: For the same reason all those thousands of FLDS and other cult polygamists still believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God! Because religious fanatics are easily fooled into believing many things, and they find it hard to keep it all straight in their supersitious minds.
Tattletails...... | 5:01 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
To# 4:19
I don't see anyone other religion on this blog pardoning their religions mishaps within the religious world. Why do you LDS people insist on whenever you are backed into a corner, with many discrepancy, all seem to start throwing dirt and rocks towards other religions. It sounds like a bunch crybaby tattle tails.
I don't see anyone other religion on this blog pardoning their religions mishaps within the religious world. Why do you LDS people insist on whenever you are backed into a corner, with many discrepancy, all seem to start throwing dirt and rocks towards other religions. It sounds like a bunch crybaby tattle tails.
Benjamin | 5:19 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
To For:
OK, here is my argument: I prayed and asked God. God told me the LDS Church is not true.
OK, here is my argument: I prayed and asked God. God told me the LDS Church is not true.
cavey | 5:31 p.m. Jan. 22, 2009
Re: Benjamin,
Ditto on that.
Ditto on that.
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- Utes prepare to go bowling 6:15 a.m.
- Unbeaten BYU takes trip to Logan 6:14 a.m.
- Wildcats dangerous foe for Utes 6:04 a.m.
- Flash get dramatic win over D-Fenders 6:01 a.m.
- All-MWC football awards 5:57 a.m.
- Deseret News Ms. Volleyball 2009 5:48 a.m.
- 5A All-State volleyball teams 5:14 a.m.
- 4A All-State volleyball teams 5:14 a.m.
- 3A volleyball All-State teams 5:14 a.m.
- 2A All-State teams 5:14 a.m.
- 2 citations issued at Y.-U. game
- BYU says Hall incident resolved
- Witness: Mitchell wanted attention
- Max Hall: a fixture in rivalry lore
- 'Grandfamilies' a growing trend
- MWC '09 season in review
- Find joy in life, Bishop Burton says
- Mitchell called intelligent, controlling
- Daughter: Mitchell fed me my pet
- Jazz ready to be without Harpring
- Hall mouths off about hate of Utah
906 - Cougars beat Utes in overtime483
- Hall reprimanded by MWC404
- Max Hall issues apology387
- Hall's pain reflects self-betrayal349
- Utes won't respond to Hall276
- BYU says Hall incident resolved238
- 2 citations issued at Y.-U. game163
- BYU is champion of the state143
- Religion in politics is tiresome130
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