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Schools worry about budget cuts

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Mark | 7:15 p.m. Jan. 20, 2009
If we are going to cut teacher pay (shich is what cutting the school year REALLY is), I have a suggestion. We could cut days from the school year without cutting class instruction and teacher prep time. How?

Cut parent-teacher conferences. In most districts, four are scheduled throughout the year, for which teachers receive two days of pay. This does trim teacher salaries, which is not a good thing, but it ends a largely ineffective program that was developed when many parents and teachers didn't have access to a phone, much less e-mail or text messages. Some districts around the country have stopped the practice, with no appreciable ill effects. And most teachers despise the PT conferences for being such an unproductive use of time and tax dollars.

Cutting off the last few days of school, because they are not as educationally productive, is like cutting off the end of a rope, you will just create a new unproductive end.
85 % | 8:30 p.m. Jan. 20, 2009
Of the supposed 85% spent on teachers, how much is actually for bloated administrations that don't contribute to the classroom experience.
Paula | 9:22 p.m. Jan. 20, 2009
Good thought Mark. However in my school parent teacher conferences are held after school hours so as not to disrupt learning. Maybe some schools are different-I don't know. And email and text messages are great if the community in which you teach has access to computers (many of the parents where I teach don't) as well as working phone numbers (again, a challenge in a very low income area). Thanks for your input, though!
Comments continue below
NOT ALONE | 9:23 p.m. Jan. 20, 2009
I am thankful I am an educator in Utah.

There are many citizens who have lost their jobs who make sacrifices everyday.

I am ready to sacrifice whatever the elected representatives of this state deem necessary in order to balance our budget.

I KNOW I AM NOT ALONE.

Administrators.... | 9:38 p.m. Jan. 20, 2009
their salaries should get a trimming down too. I think that would be more than fair...
Struggling | 10:35 p.m. Jan. 20, 2009
in the case of NOT ALONE, it's easy to forget about the littler guys. My mother is a music teacher in a Utah County elementary school. If the budgets are cut any higher than that 7.5 percent, she will lose her jobs. When money gets tight, schools are forced to get rid of their specialty teachers which make school worth while. It will be especially hard on our family if the budget is cut because my mom's "secure" teaching job after 15 years at the same school will have nothing.
Midwest Member | 5:52 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
To Not Alone: Before you give away what little you have, remember that Utah is at the bottom of the nation in per-pupil spending. That didn't improve when Utah was flush with cash a few years back, but now, when money is tight, it's one of the first places they look to cut. I find it strange that Utah places such a low value on it's schools. The LDS Church promotes education, but it frequently seems, in practice, that the GOP ideology is more important than religion to the citizens of the Beehive state.
Lean already | 6:26 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
The Utah education system is already the leanest in the nation. We spend less per child than any other state, with large class sizes, few teachers, few administrators, few support staff, etc. Obviously it will get leaner by cutting bone and muscle (no fat to cut). Service to students will be reduced with any cut. For the sake of the children, I hope that cuts will be shallow and short, not deep and long.
Not Good | 7:54 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
I am a teacher and I currently have a classroom with 28 desks yet my smallest class is 31 students. I have one class that is 35. Utah already treats our teachers poorly and now they are going to make it worse. I love Utah but I am already sending application to Wyoming and Nevada.
Legislators give Utah the shaft | 8:23 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Why isn't anyone talking about why this shortfall in revenues is as large as it is?
Our economy has not gone done 15% in the last year. Unemployment is not up more than even 1 point in the last year.
The only thing that has changed dramatically since last year is tax cuts.
Our state Legislators in their desire to give tax cuts at all costs have screwed us.

Now they are concerned about balancing a budget that they have slashed to pieces.
My local representative told me they vote on the dollar amount first and then figure out what to fund. Doesn't that sound backwards in times like these? Why not figure out how much we need to spend to save basic services and not slash and burn every agency and dept. and then set a dollar amount and adjust taxes according to our basic needs?
Utah's Health care and education are already given sub par spending and now it will be worse.
I hope Huntsman stands up to the Crooks on the Hill.
Get it right | 8:29 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
The 85 percent salary issue is correct. In Grantie District administrative costs are less than 5 percent of the total salary budget, and district office administraters about .5 percent of that. Utah is last in the nation in expenditures per student -- the national national average is $174; Utah $60. So stop bleating about high administrative costs -- and no, I am not a school administrator.
in a sorry State | 9:04 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
What is that the Lousyslature has against providing a high quality education to our Children?

If they need to reduce spending they can suspend giving sweetheart deals to lobbyist, friends, special interests and campaign contributors. Spread the cuts throughout all departments. Even the legislature!

Insider | 9:15 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
I don't think people are railing on administrative costs. What they are saying is that there are some ineffective administrators in education, why not get rid of them. Additionally, many of them that perform poorly are simply moved to another school or district position and are allowed to coast at a very large salary until retirement.

Most want to get rid of the "bad teachers" well it should go both ways but never does. It is a definite double standard.

Furthermore, teachers are leaving the profession in Utah because of continual loss of funding year in and year out.
Jess | 9:36 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
It is interesting that so far none of the comments so far mention cutting the most wasteful "educational" expense: Interschool Sports. Thousands of dollars could be saved if money spent on these activities which have absoultely nothing to do with education was put into reducing classroom size, purchasing new textbooks or supplies, etc. If interschool sports were eliminated state wide it would send a message that Utah is really interested in improving education even in tight budget times. Now is the time to send that message.
The Weight | 10:25 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
RE: Jess | 9:36 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009

High school is a time to make friends, get good grades, participate in activities and prepare for the future. Unfortunately, due to budget cuts, some schools have opted out of high school sports, believing that money would be better spent on academics. I understand that academics come first, but sacrificing high school sports lessens every child's high school experience, their ability to perform at optimum academic levels and develop into a well-rounded adult.

What many administrators, teachers and parents fail to realize is that high school sports offer teenagers an outlet. Participating in high school sports is important for motor skill development, maintaining a healthy exercise program and provides for a release of anger when the academic stressors become overwhelming. When youth participate in high school sports they release endorphins which helps decrease depression and increases energy. Most high schools, if not all, require at least a C average to participate in these sports, which provides the child with accountability.

Let's get rid of all P.E while were at it.

Honestly, people should think before they post such ridiculous points of view.



DMH | 10:30 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
I think that the legislature needs to take a real good look at the programs that need to be paid for with education being at the top of the list. Then charge the citizens of Utah the appropriate amount of taxes to cover these expenses. I do not have a problem paying my taxes as long as they are being spent wisely and I can think of nothing that is more important than educating our children.
Jonas Sister | 10:47 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Please, please, please use some of the rainy day fund and some bonding on roads, etc. to lessen the impact of the cuts on schools! 7.5% and 15% are way too high. These types of cuts will hurt for years to come. Realistically, we should be looking at 4.5% and 9% max.
Doug S | 10:53 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Midwest Member writes:

"I find it strange that Utah places such a low value on it's schools"

To which I reply:

What on earth are you talking about? Fully 40% of Utah's budget goes to K-12 education. That's a higher percentage than any other state in the Mountain West, and also significantly higher than California. Combine taxes and fees, and Utahns wind up contributing more of their income to the State than residents of virtually any other state in the Union.

The simple truth is, the money isn't there to give these kids the education they deserve.
Re: Get it Right | 11:09 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Thanks for letting everyone know that administrative salaries in Utah are the lowest in the nation. They may seem high to teachers because administrators work 12-month And yes, I am administrator.
Roll back the tax cuts | 11:09 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Roll back tax cuts for the rich and cut the number of total deductions to 5 max. end of budget shortfall and you will have money left over to keep public safty staff and education staff and pay for their insurance. Why does the Legislature only look at one way, cut, cut, cut? They say how well run and bare bones we already run things in utah. If that is the case, you can't cut anymore and provide for the children and citizens of the state.
Cyberian | 11:12 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Doug S:
The REAL fact of the matter is that we spend a higher percentage of our budget on education, but we spend less per pupil. The disconnect here is the MUCH higher than average size of Utah families, and the resultant large school-age population. As long as Utahns continue to have families with 4, 5, 6, 8 or more kids, the number of students per taxpayer will be larger than other states. As long as we allow the business-dominated legislature to do business as usual, wages will stay low. Low wages + large families = inadequate funding for schools (and everything else).
Jumper | 11:13 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
I have yet to hear of any district that has successfully controlled costs by hiring fewer teachers and allowing class sizes to increase. Shopping by mail may eliminate salespeople, but a classroom without a teacher is not a sound idea. It's similar to an airplane without a pilot.

Perhaps we should re-examine the key mechanisms for hiring, releasing and holding school administrators accountable?
priorities | 11:29 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009
If we make any cuts, we should make cuts to education first. But please, hold Utah roads blameless, we need to increase our spending on roads so that I can drive the four blocks to my local Albertson's on smooth pavement. That's the American way and my God-given right.
Doug S | 12:00 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Cyberian, I concur with you about family size though I don't agree with your comments about wages. A higher minimum wage translates into fewer jobs, so it's debatable as to whether you're really increasing tax revenues. And even if you are, you've also got to worry about localized inflation which means that the education budget may not buy as much in goods and services).

Bottom line is, to get spending-per-pupil up to where it really should be you'll have to increase the average Utahn's state tax burden by (at minimum) somewhere around sixty percent.
The "Elephant in the Room" | 12:03 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Okay, here's the deal: Unless Utahns with large families are willing to pay their full share of the education bill when they have two and half times the national average of children per-tax payer, we are going to stay dead last in per-pupil spending. The only way to increase the funding for schools is to limit deductions to 5 or fewer on State Income Tax. If you can't pay your fair share of your children's education costs (and if you have 5 or more children,I guarantee you are not paying your fair share of Utah State Income Tax.), you need to re-think the size of your family. There; the "elephant" is revealed.

Second, we need to look at those costs which most directly affect students in the classroom before we begin to "cut with a hatchet" rather than a scalpel. Everyone is willing to sacrifice; let's just do some priortizing and not allow those legislators (Howard Stephenson et.al) who are still fuming at getting the "Voucher Bill" stuffed up their noses to use the budget shortfalls as an excuse to wage a "wholesale vendetta" on public education.
Re: priorities | 12:09 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Roads and bridges are Obama's/Huntsman's way to get some serious infrastructure going on out there.
Don't blame ObamaHuntsman's for protecting our God given rights to infrastructure projects. Jerk.
Dave from Midvale again | 1:16 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Folks. . . I believe the last place we should cut is our schools. The art especially.

But for you folks that rely so much on the "Dollar per Pupil" formula for educational quality; compare that to our students test scores. Our kids excel over most of the nation in spite of the fewer dollars spent. This is due to the quality of teachers we have and the students parents (as well as their overall environment).

Wise placement of funds is more of what our schools need. But I propose we DON'T cut a red cent from the schools.
They should worry | 1:50 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
They've become bloated, ineffective bureaucracies that engage more in babysitting than in education and have higher administrator/teacher ratios than teacher/student ratios.

The greatest generations of American history were educated at home or in one-room schoolhouses. If students weren't interested in education, they were free to go to work.

Educators changed all that. They were the prime movers in passing laws that block meaningful contribution to society by anyone under 18. And now they whine that there are too many uninterested kids in school, suggesting that spending more on nurses, psychologists and security personnel is the solution, whether kids learn or not.

Cut the budget. Make administrators teach or find other employment. Shutter non-performing schools. Stop forcing uninterested kids into troubled classrooms. Acknowledge learning occurs outside classrooms. Let kids work if they want to. That'll do more to solve the illegal alien problem than 10 divisions of infantry on our borders.

If a kid's old enough to join a gang and commit murder when he's 12, he's old enough to hold a job and contribute to society.
Tre | 1:58 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
We should NOT be considering where the cuts in education should take place; we should be thinking about our priorities. We should be thinking about the long-term effects of today's decisions. It is much more expensive to incarcerate an individual, than it is to educate that same person. Why are we so short-sighted? Do you really want illiterate, uneducated, ignorant people to be our future engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, firefighters, police officers, nurses, politicians? Come on folks -- common sense!

Re: worry | 2:08 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
I wish, as an educator, I was paid babysitting wages. I would make $3 per hour for 7 hours with 30 kids in my room for 185 days. That's $116,550 a year salary...three times what I make now. You know what...I will throw in teaching them math, reading, history, interpersonal skills, manners, love, science, respect, and cooperation for free. Pony up worry, you have a deal!
Can You Say "Dark Ages?" | 2:24 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Thanks, "They Should Worry." You are absolutely right: It was educators who did all that. And I suppose if you want to return to the days of the wild west, we could have it all undone. Remember that if you choose part of the dog, by nature, you end up with the whole dog.
Re: Weight | 2:30 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Your point of view, in reality, is the ridiculous one. To defend high school sports on arguments about endorphins, motor skills, etc. that improve learning and augment the high school experience is naive. In a high school of 2,000 kids, perhaps 15-20 percent of them will play high school sports, and that might be a very generous estimate. For example, a total of 25-30 will play JV and Varsity basket ball for 3 months. 100-120 will play football, and most boys on the basketball team will be on the football team.

The reality is, most high school kids participate in high school sports from the bleachers. If endorphins and getting energy and healthy lifestyle are your arguments for keeping high school sports, then we already have P.E. classes, which Jess wasn't arguing that we cut. Everything you're arguing about is available in PE. The reality is, high school sports is a huge waste of money. They can boost morale and school spirit, but that's not your argument. So, before you offer an rude post, think clearly about your arguments. Kids can get everything you've claimed is important in PE.
Re: WoRRy | 3:21 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
You should put a name and address so we can dump off a few of those gang members in front of your house. Your a bright one Mr. Grinch (I think those are the words. but most of these bloggers are...
Science Teacher | 3:39 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
What's that sound?!?!


Oh, that's the sound of applications being filed in other states.

What's THAT sound?!?

Hmm... sounds like footsteps of recent graduates getting cheap educations in Utah and hitting the road in search of a good job elsewhere.

People. A sad fact of life is you get what you pay for. NOT paying for education means you won't get any. You can try to squeeze blood from a turnip all you want.....


I also agree wholeheartedly with a head tax. If you can't afford them, stop having them!!! Exemptions should be phased out over the next generation and should be immediately cut after X number of rugrats.
To Re: worry | 2:08 | 4:28 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
You're on pal!

$116,550 is about half the $7,500 per pupil (X 30=$225,000) we're now paying!

You've eloquently made my point. A bloated bureaucracy that collects $225,000 from us, then pays the guy at the pointy end of the spear only $30,000 of it is seriously flawed.

Particularly when there are guys like Re: worry out there that are more than willing to care for and educate our kids better and cheaper.
JT | 4:58 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
To "Not Good" and "Science Teacher":
You two threatening to file applications in other states ought to read the Las Vegas Sun newspaper. Nevada is axing it's teacher salaries by 6%! The incremental pay steps? They are on hold. I'm sick of hearing teachers threaten to pack up and go to Nevada. If you think that is bad, try California, their educators fear layoffs! Look up the Utah teacher and administrator wages on the web. Amazing how many administrators make over the $90,000-$100,000 a year mark! Check out how many teachers make over $50,000 a year! Put administrators in the classrooms with 34 students part of the day until the economy improves! It makes me sick that the first people they cut are the Aides (down to 3.5 hours a day). I say give every administrator a 15% pay cut! Keep the teachers, aides and lunch ladies. Don't forget educators, the entire state is facing %15 cuts, not just you sacred cows.
JO JO | 5:00 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Re: Get it Right | 11:09 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009

First off administrators are NOT on a twelve month contract so there goes that theory.

Second the gap between administrative pay and teacher pay in Utah is indeed one of the largest in the nation.

Finally, please show documented proof that Utah school administrators are the lowest paid in the nation. That simply is not true.

Get it right, now that's laughable!!
Anonymous | 5:11 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
If they cut teacher pay down to fair market value (20K+ full time benefits) the jobs will still be filled. Teaching has been a pastime, not a career for most in Utah as women teach till they start a family. We have plenty of would-be teachers that would jump into the profession if many of the hoops were removed.
Anonymous | 5:13 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
JT,

California laid off 10K teachers last summer.
Jess | 5:27 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
I attended a large high school where a few conceited kids participated in high school sports. I wanted to but my 98 pounds didn't qualify me for the football team. At one time the basketball coach promised me that if I reached a certain goal, he would put me on the basketball team. After I met the goal, the coach reneged. I learned a lot about honesty from that coach. The actual fact is that most boys in high school who don't make the team envy those who do. It's a lot of money spent on a few athletically gifted or large guys who get their already inflated egos boosted while the rest of the students feel jealous and daydream of being Mr. Touchdown.

As a former school teacher and principal, I saw this in action. It just cost a lot of money that could be better used elsewhere and often interfered with other more important educational experiences. Intamurals, on the other hand had a lot of participants, were a lot of fun and cost almost nothing.

Lets replace interschool sports with a good P.E. program and intramurals. It's a win/win.
The Weight | 5:35 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Re: Weight | 2:30 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009

You miss the point. The objective of school sports is the enrichment of the high school experiences of students within the context of the educational mission of schools. As such, school sports should be educational and contribute to the overall education of ALL students, NOT athletes only. Therefore, it is important to the overall moral of each school. It would benefit all involved to look at making cuts in other areas.

Other objectives of school sports logically follow from the educational mission: citizenship, sportsmanship, fair play, teamwork, respect, and health and welfare of ALL students not only during the school years but continuing into adulthood. YES, adulthood!!!

Furthermore, the cost of sports is actually minimal when compared to administrative salaries. In fact, coaches pay in Utah is pathetic at best.

Finally, nearly half of all students and 75% of high school students do not attend any physical education classes after they have completed their requirements for graduation. MMMMMMMMMMM!!!

So you see they cannot get everything you claim in P.E.

Speculation on your part...talk about rude!!!
Suzi | 6:01 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
RE:JT | 4:58 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009

I like your idea of putting administrators in the class room.

Please remember teachers making over 50K have taught for over ten years and have Masters degree.

My point is this...it is alot of hard work and schooling to get to 50K.

Other points well taken.
To: JO JO | 5:00 p.m | 6:02 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
First off, every administrator I know and have worked in my 13 years of teaching has had a 12 month contract. I have lived and taught in 3 different states (NV, UT, and AZ)and that is the case in every school I have worked in. Get a clue before commenting
Anonymous | 7:10 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
So it came down in Davis. They said to expect teacher layoffs and 40+ students in class. Can't wait... if I'm still there.
Anonymous | 8:12 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Cutting sports has the least impact on education because athletes in the major three sports of football, baseball and soccer can go join a rec league to have those needs met. Girls and other types of athletes would be mostly out of luck though. However, I don't think that axing cheer and sports will actually get districts all that close to the eventual 15% cutting threshold for next school year, or the 4.5-7.5% needed this school year.

Cutting days of school seems like a good idea as well. So does ending bus service. These ideas also have costs associated with them. More kids die walking to school, and cutting school leaves the child further behind (ask any teacher how bad it is when a child takes a two week vacation in the middle of the school year).

The obvious answer is so simple it would never work. Change the law to allow kids to opt out of public education sooner, say 14 or even 12 with parental consent. If school were optional it would be more effective.

RE:Hoops | 9:44 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009
Yeah let's get rid of the hoops. Start with College degrees, this is education who needs degrees!!! Second anyone can do it and everyone wants these jobs...that's why we had zero qualified applicants in our district for a math teacher and hired a Shop teacher with a level 2 math endorsement to teach High School math!! Third, Macdonalds pays more shall I go on.
JO JO | 10:37 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
To: JO JO | 5:00 p.m | 6:02 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009

First off...WRONG!!!.

School principals work 260 days. Meaning they are on a ten and a half month contract. Vice principals roughly 206 days and teachers 188.

Additionally, the perks of the job are outstanding. I won't go into that here because you'll just twist that information as well.

You say you have been teaching for thirteen years and yet you do not even know about administrative contracts in your respective school district...so sad that you tell others to get a clue when you haven't one yourself.

I can tell your special and misinformed.

I am glad I'm not in your class!!
Science Teacher | 11:23 a.m. Jan. 22, 2009
A 6% chop off of another states' pay is still a lot more than Utah teacher pay.

When Wyoming can start a teacher at 10 grand more than any district around me, I question myself why I still hold on to hope that Utah will come around.
Tara | 8:53 p.m. Jan. 23, 2009
I THINK MANY SPECIAL-ED PROGRAMS ARE A JOKE. I KNOW i USE TO BE A TEACHER. i WATCHED THESE CHILDREN (THEY ARE SUFFICIENTLY TESTED) AND DETERMINED TO BE WAY BELOW GRADE LEVEL AND THEN THEY SEND THEM TO A CLASS FOR 30 MIN. WITH 8-15 OTHER CHILDREN ALL ON DIFFERENT LEVELS WITH 1 TEACHER...YEP 1 TEACHER AND THAT IS SUPPOSE TO HELP IMPROVE THEM...OH MY GOSH ITS A JOKE!!! I WATCHED PARENTS JUST GIVE AN EXTRA 30 MIN ONE ON ONE WITH THEIR CHILD IN THE EVENING AND GAVE THEM SUPPLEMENTS AND THESE CHILDREN IMPROVED GREATLY.. I THINK HOW THEY HAVE IT STRUCTURED IS NOT IMPROVING CHILDREN..I'M SURE THERE ARE SOME THAT DO BUT THE MAJORITY..NO WAY!!! THESE CHILDREN NEED ONE ON ONE....I KNOW ONE TEACHER WHO SAT ALL HER RESOURCE KIDS AT ONE TABLE...MIX THEM UP SO THE OTHER CHILDREN CAN HELP THEM, OR SO THEY CAN LEARN FROM THEM...JUST MY OPINION!!!!!
Anonymous | 1:54 p.m. July 5, 2009
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