Deseret News | Reader comments: Probe finds charter school didn't break law with firings

Reader comments
Probe finds charter school didn't break law with firings

Now you know | 6:15 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

why charter schools are a disaster. Teachers don't have to be certified and board members don't have to have any brains. It might have been legal but it was certainoy dishonest This is better than public schools. I don't think so.
Get your kids out and let the academy fold. Serves them right. Sixth graders in high schools with senior boys. Oh my goodness.

disillusioned | 7:57 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Just another example of how charter schools only benefit a few....and discriminate and mistreat everyone else. Obviously they don't need training in the Open Meeting act. They purposefully and knowingly held smaller meetings just so they wouldn't have to be transparent (of course, now they're supposedly being that way). They knew exactly what they were doing, and did not care about students or parents. Just shows that charters are not really happening to benefit students and parents....but to benefit themselves. What a bunch of bunk!!!!!!!

Anonymous | 8:23 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

It wasn't illegal, it just killed all future hope for the school ever getting decent teachers (current teachers not included). Who would ever apply there?

Seriously.

Comments continue below

Steven Jarvis | 8:44 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

To the previous three poster(s):

MVA goes up to 9th grade. Your point is therefore flawed and shows you have not been reading the articles on the situation.

All teachers at public schools are certified by the state. Charter schools are public schools and therefore use state certified teachers.

Is holding closed meetings any different from the way our legislature handles things? That is the standard policy for government and allows things to get done. While I personally don't like what happened at MVA, the school did get back in compliance with their charter and hopefully avoided budgetary woes. I also noted no support of why Charters only benefit a few in your statement. The fact that students are staying proves the opposite of your point. Those families understand what opportunities they have at MVA compared to the local school and have chosen MVA.

Many teachers will apply at MVA next year. They have a solid reputation despite the mid-year changes. Furthermore, the State is intending to cut budgets to all schools by up to 15% next year meaning more teachers will be out looking for work than ever before.

Hatuletoh | 8:53 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

It's both disturbing and hiliarious that this Mr. Mac Sims took a course in "open meetings", and used the legal knowledge gained to conduct meetings especially designed skirt disclosure laws. Decidedly sinister, but respectably Machiavellian.

After reading this story I myself had a great idea. I propose we create a program whereby we divert state tax dollars for education away from school districts, and allow them to be pumped willy-nilly into any old charter schools of dubious regulation. And naturally, we won't want to follow up with that money in any way to ensure it's not being spent on--for example--some sweet football uniforms and light-up scoreboard.

I don't see how anything could possibly go wrong. Now . . . how can I bring this stellar plan to fruition?

Educrat | 9:16 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Hatuletoh,

Considering how many times the past three years Charter schools have been audited, I think your inane suggestion of money without accountability would be a welcome change. Charter schools are more regulated and closely scrutinized by the state than district schools are.

Jeff L. | 9:24 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

To the conspiracy theorists above, let's imagine for a moment that Mr. Sims had announced to the school, parents, and teachers that budget problems (which he inherited from the previous administrator) would cause them to make drastic changes and fire some teachers in the coming months.

So now for weeks & weeks you have teachers (understandably) worried about losing their jobs, students worried about losing their teacher, and parents wanting to have a say in the minutiae of every decision the board makes.

Mr. Sims readily acknowledges that things could have been communicated better, but there was absolutely nothing sinister about discussing MVA's options in (perfectly legal) small groups to avoid disrupting students, teachers, and parents with difficult news. The board felt they were acting in the best interests of everyone involved, and made a painful decision after exploring all of their options.

So glad | 9:25 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

By all means, play it safe and stick with the district. They'll take care of you. You can trust them. They would never make personnel changes to keep their budgets in check. (The teacher UNION would never allow for that!) They'll just raise your property taxes! Oh, wait, they call it bonding now (just a fancy name for taxing.)

I'm so glad to see that the UEA propaganda machine is alive and well.

School Choice Propaganda | 9:51 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

To: So glad

Yes, and the Charters get to "hide behind" the Districts when they raise property taxes! Charters now receive a portion of that property tax--yet they don't have their names listed on the individual tax notices like the Districts do. The Districts take the heat and the Charters get some of the money without doing any of the work. This must change.

I'm glad to see by your post that the "school choice" propaganda machine is alive and well.

No apology for charters | 10:04 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Steven, as usual, you are an apologist for charter schools. MVA is a textbook example of a charter school run amuck and operates contrary to the founding principles of charter schools. It is a taxpayer funded school, but operates if it is a private school. All is not perfect in charter school land as you and other charter apologists try to make people believe. How can you say that MVA has a "solid reputation" despite your kind euphemistic term "mid-year changes?" The management of this school (the brains and heart and soul) has a terrible reputation if you ask me. I have always held the firm conviction that charter schools in Utah were born from legislative corruption (conflict of interest). It is no wonder that many behave the way they do--unaccountable to the people.

TO: Steven and Jeff L. | 11:13 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Sorry Steven, MVA is a K-8 school, they have applied for 9th grade but were not approved.

Jeff L., you are wrong about Mr. Mac Simms, he has been on the board of MVA since the start. ANY problems with finances he helped create. No matter how you sugar coat it, the board has the final say and they are not open and honest.

Why is it that the District Schools have to follow the Open Meeting laws to the letter and the Charter Schools can get away with the "we didn't have a majority" excuse. When our District Schools hold a Community Council meeting we need to give at least one week notice, have the agenda and post it in at least two places, usually the school and the website. If we hold a committee meeting, which does not have a majority of members, we still have to post the meeting at least one week in advance, have the agenda and post it in two places. Tell me again that Charter Schools are more regulated then District Schools.

Charters Are NOT Businesses | 11:24 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

The circus at MVA is typical of how charter schools are run. The big sales pitch was...they are like a business....they can succeed or fail at their own doing. This is a fallacy. Charter schools are not run like a business. No business would take actions that violate the trust of their shareholders or investors. Businesses work for their investors. MVA works for their own board. They didn't care about their shareholders because the charter parents have NO vote. The state money arrives in October and then the board and their so-called "consultant" do whatever they please. At Liberty Academy the "consultant" and board so badly managed things that Liberty had to be saved by another charter school. It should have been allowed to fail. The problem...you have investors shacking up with legislators..and then follow the money trail. Hence, these charters are heavily subsidized. Why should I as a taxpayer fund a system that is just like the regular public school..actually worse. The public school has an ELECTED board and the employees have real cause contracts. The charter school gig was rigged from inception..a few legislators, builders, and investors are happy and protected.

Are you making it up as you go.. | 12:57 p.m. Jan. 19, 2009

...or do you really believe what you say? Gossip supported by news boards like this is how misinformation magically transforms into "fact". The real fact is, Mountainville has NEVER applied for 9th grade (although lots of us have wanted them to).

What a mess | 1:26 p.m. Jan. 19, 2009

MVAs Board continues to lie to its parents. In the Board meeting last week the board was asked why they didn't offer the two vacant positions to two of the outgoing teachers. They lied and said they didn't come available at the same time. Actually the fourth grade teacher who was fired over Christmas break didn't meet her state requirements at the BEGINNING of December BEFORE the sixth grade teachers were fired. More lies from the Board. One more thing, all of the "off the record" comments that keep being made by the board that this was a mismanagement problem from the former Director are FALSE FALSE FALSE. In their own bylaws the board is 100% in charge of every penny spent at MVA. Scapegoating the former director just shows what a bunch snakes these people on the board are. Mismanagement at its finest. They are actually bragging enrollment forms are rolling in at amazing rates for next year. That is hilarious given that parents are in close communication with each other and it is going to be quite the opposite. Mass exodus is more like it. With teachers and with students.

Re: Steven J. | 1:29 p.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Are you looking for employment right now? You seem to never have your facts checked. MVA is K-8. Most people know that. Especially those who have had any ACTUAL interest in this story besides just yakking to see their own comments posted.

evans | 6:51 p.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Actually Mr. Mac Sims was elected by the parents of MVA when the school first opened. He was not on the board at the beginning. He was elected in September of 2006.

Steven Jarvis | 7:27 p.m. Jan. 19, 2009

No apology for charters | 10:04 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Charter schools originated in the Salt Lake City School District in the 70's, so the concept is not new to Utah. The State Office of Education tends to offer more support than a District does, so we are seeing very few Charters being formed through a District than they used to. Parents flock to them because they offer things that aren't available at the local school and despite mistakes being made that is not going to change.

TO: Steven and Jeff L. | 11:13 a.m. Jan. 19, 2009

My bad. MVA is a K-8 school. The poster I was responding to claimed Seniors would be at the school and that simply is not the case as you are aware.

Anonymous | 8:41 p.m. Jan. 19, 2009

Steve is always on here touting charters. I keep wondering how many he has worked at and why the changes?

Not trying to put him down just wondering what the background is so people will know where he is coming from...

Steven Jarvis | 6:13 a.m. Jan. 20, 2009

I am wondering whatever happened to Alexandria myself? She was a major protagonist of Charter schools and relished spreading falsehoods, so it seems to me a major shock to not have her around.

I have worked at a couple of Charters. I am making almost 20K more now than I was at my first charter when benefits are added to the mix. I moved from what was the lowest paying school up the latter to perhaps the highest with more than 1,000 students on its wait list and growing everyday. I could never get paid that well at JSD so it was pretty obvious that the Charter system would be a better fit. I still do my best to protect public education, fighting bad policies such as splitting districts and vouchers while touting Charter schools.

Anonymous | 6:18 a.m. Jan. 20, 2009

The main reason I hear for parents enrolling their children in charter schools is because they are allowed to limit their class sizes. That is quite an advantage they have over traditional public schools.

re:Anon. 6:18am Jan. 20 | 7:06 a.m. Jan. 21, 2009

My children are in a public district school with class sizes under 25 students. Twenty-five is what the charter schools' classes are capped at. Your assertion about class sizes is not entirely true. I believe some of the reasons include the charter schools have the look and feel of a private school without the costs, the elitism of some of the parents, and the parents wanting to try everything that is "new".

CHOICE, NOT CHARTERS | 12:03 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009

Seems like these charter boards hire their buddies, spouses, etc..do whatever and whenever. So..the taxpayer ends up supporting a monarchy, investors, gov't subsidies...what a mess.
I can't think of a better reason than to have a voucher. Nice experiment, but it has succeeded in creating yet another level of government. Charters should just become district schools. Maybe then we'll get a voucher to have a TRUE Market economy in education. If we had this, then we would not have issues like Mountainville and all the rest. Europe is way ahead of the United States..better test scores, etc..and they have a true voucher..not the one they tried last year.

re: CHOICE, NOT CHARTERS | 5:51 p.m. Jan. 21, 2009

Nice, so we eliminate Charter Schools and replace it with another layer of government, the voucher level. Charter Schools need to decide if they want to be a public school or if they really want to be a private school and then act appropriately. This pseudo-private school mentality must end. If the schools are having a problem following the laws then they need to get rid of their entire board and start over, switch to private schools or close.

Anonymous | 9:11 a.m. Jan. 24, 2009

District schools should just become Charters, not the other way around. Just you wait till Canyons gets rolling and the changes happen. We'd save money and have local control over the schools.

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