Deseret News | FLDS mother wants jury to decide custody

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FLDS mother wants jury to decide custody

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KC | 4:42 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Common Sense you missed my point.

KC | 4:43 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

I'm not going to explain it to you Common b/c you like so many others DON'T get it.

Don't mess with Texas. They DID THEIR JOB!

Anonymous | 4:53 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Who cares what someone's religious beliefs are as long as they don't hurt anyone? Isn't that what America is all about? Every scenario Reality Check has to do with murder and the loss of life. Marriage creates life, and hurts no one, but only protects them and blesses them. Leave the FLDS and their peculiar religion alone. They are hurting no one, but could indeed teach the rest of us about how to live in peace with their neighbor, which is what Jesus taught.

Comments continue below

JWW | 5:03 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

How is the girl in danger of entering another marriage if she is already married "eternally" to Warren? If CPS doesn't think she is married to Warren, then why would they think she would marry someone else while under age? This is completely contradictory and proof that CPS has nothing with which to hold this girl.

Warren can no longer be considered a threat because he is in prison. There is also NO evidence that the girl was involved in anything more than a religious ceremony, but then again religion is what's it's really been about all along. Better join a State approved religion or they'll take your kids! That's unconstitutional and Un-American.

Shame, shame, shame on Texas CPS and all that support them!

KC | 5:10 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

"Not hurting any1" my foot. They are hurting everyone! Their wives, children & US taxpayers! YOU sound like a pedophile sympathizer.

Re: Common, Joey, etc. | 5:37 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

How can you still revere a "prophet" that, in addition to being involved in a multi-generational reign of terror, has also admitted he's not a prophet, admitted that he violated his sister, and is caught on film kissing a 12-year-old in a way no 12-year-old should ever be kissed by an adult?

If that's not enough of an indication this evil man has departed from God, what more could he possibly do to merit your disgust?

It's no wonder the "church" he leads merits the disgust of God and the entire civilized world.

yourkiddin | 6:17 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Whoever it was that said, if it came between the law of GOD or law of the land, they would chose God's law?
Where do you think our laws came from? Most were derived from Judeo Christian laws. God established all laws and all segments of law.
Some religions make up their own doctrines as they go along, like Joseph Smith did.
However, Ive got good news!! You can chose to follow your religious tenets, but if you break the law of the land, your going to prison anyway! lol

Joey | 6:38 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

realitycheck, everyone is under a form of mind control. Everyone firmly believes in his own belief system. You have yours obviously. Maybe you believe there are still WMDs in Iraq. Personally, I've always been skeptical. But then again I don't believe we ever went to the moon, and I look at those who do as brainwashed. Perhaps you belong to the 911 cult, or the Global Warming cult. Everyone belongs to some cult or another, including you, so try to start respecting people's civil rights for a change. We have freedom of speech, thought, and religion in this country, as well as a right to privacy, including the Fourth Amendment, which the Texas Baptist cult violated when they intruded on a peaceful religious community that wasn't causing any body any harm.

K | 11:32 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Both sides can talk to the press. I remember seeing the rooms that were on the ranch where one adult was in every room with a number of children some her's some not to supervise... amazing how the pregnancy rate is so high among teens there with all that extra supervision and the children being raised by the village.

JJ,
CPS and Texas law/DA are the authorities and they aren't furthering their agenda, they are fullfilling their purpose in keeping kids away from pedophiles and other abuses.

As to the "safe since she's spiritually married to a man behind bars until she's an adult" - women and children get reassigned all the time. And it's not the point. What's been done has been done and justice must be served.

American culture,
The problem with this religion is sex with minors, abandonment of minor boys and welfare fraud... "Religion" can't do whatever it wants. The US can't require it's citizens to belong to a specific faith. Islam allows 4 wives. Why don't the people on the ranch immigrate to a country that allows polygamy? There is nothing forcing you to stay in a country that doesn't allow polygamy.

Common Sense | 1:08 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

LOL,

I am a Babtist! Sounds like you people think the FLDS are the only ones who obey the law of God. Shame on you all. I am talking about the law of God written in the Bible, which every Christain professes to believe in as the law of God.

Re: KC | 4:45 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

"I agree Wymoming: I don't think Carloyn Jessop & Elissa Wall are lying."

Yep, just like all the others who love the lie. They will believe the words of 2 disgruntled women who left the FLDS and saw their chance to get rich by writing a salacious story, when there are hundreds, maybe 1000's of women within the FLDS who are perfectly happy with their lifestyle and their religion, and are content to live in peace, if the government will leave them alone.

R | 5:02 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Liars, the lot of them. If you really wanted reunification you would have her home today. If you really wanted to place her with relatives you would not come up with criteria that disqualifies all other FLDS. (Who somehow are not disqualified from looking after their own sons and daughters thereby, as only Merianne has been taken back into foster care.)

Joey | 5:07 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

"why don't people on the ranch immigrate to a country that allows polygamy" -- ...it's not that easy...ask Michael Jackson. Besides, burkha's are not in the FLDS dress code.

BTW, everyone's saying the girls was married. First of all she wasn't. She was *spiritually* married, meaning betrothed or sealed; that's not the same thing. The "marriage" was never consummated. Why should the mother admit guilt, when there is none. It's not against the law, however distasteful to betroth your daughter to an older man.

To Common Sense | 7:22 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

So . . . you're a "Babtist," huh?

Is that something like a Baptist?

Is that how they taught you to spell it in the FLDS schools?

Susan W | 7:47 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I am not FLDS, however the Texas CPS is using this girl to vindicate their unlawful actions. The girl was spiritually married at 12, but is now 14, is still a virgin, and obviously does not have a child, as some comments have reported. The "husband" is in jail, and will probably be there for a long time. There was no threat to this girl by staying with her mom. Why does she have to stay in State custody? It seems they need more time to re-program her. The State has a big problem with not only their facts, but also the evidence they obtained with such a wide sweeping search warrant which was probably illegal and nothing more than a fishing expedition

re: Joey | 8:28 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

There is no proof that the marriage was not consummated. In fact, we already have proof that Warren, at the very least, was kissing her with tongue. What else do you think he got up to? Do you think that, as long as he stopped short of actual sex, it is appropriate?

Besides which, FLDS wives get reassigned all the time. Following the death of the previous FLDS leader (Warren's father Rulon), Warren told all the FLDS men "Hands off my father's wives." Then he proceeded to 'claim' many of the wives for himself.

So if CPS had left the girl in the care of her parents or others who continue to believe in underage marriage, then as soon as a new head honcho was picked for performing marriages, the girl could find herself with a new middle-aged husband. One who isn't safely behind bars.

re susan w | 8:48 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

the girl has to stay in foster care because the mother won't protect her from old perverts and her relatives believe the same things she does.

find a normal relative that doesn't believe in breaking the law (underage marriage, plural marriage) and that believes in free will, and the state will put her there in an instant.

what don't you get?

realitycheck | 8:54 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Joey -

you don't believe we went to the moon? I bet you don't believe in dinosaurs either...

but you believe in seer stones and having conversations with God...

I have pictures of the moon landing and fossils of dinosaurs... you got any pictures or recordings of these supposed conversations with God? or of someone actually having a vision or revelation? didn't think so...

talk about mind control... you have my deepest sympathy... good luck with that...

Andrea | 9:04 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I have not found any statement on the web from a doctor claiming that she is or is not a virgin. Besides, there are other ways to molest a girl besides penetration.

That aside, this case deals with her mothers ability to protect her child. She has not worked with CPS to keep her child safe from being married again. She has not proven that she will keep her child safe. She has thumbed her nose at authorities, she has broken the rules and has had unauthorized conversations with her daughter. She has asked to have some of her other children take her daughters place in foster care. She has shown no sign of cooperation. Her actions say volumes about how she regards her children. If she cared for her daughter then she would cooperate with CPS and show that she can keep her safe.

Anonymous | 12:03 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Realitycheck - Joey is neither FLDS nor LDS; I'm fairly sure he's an atheist. You'll have to come up with some other nonsense if you want to smear him.

realitycheck | 12:40 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

re Anonymous 12:03pm

not trying to smear anyone. simply pointing out that his comments about cults apply much more to the FLDS than to some strange sidetrack on moon landings.... and that anyone can be convinced of anything if they're held in isolation and told the same thing their whole life (obviously).

at least in the real world, we get to form our own opinions rather than just take the word of an isolated group of inbreds.

Joey | 12:44 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Dinosaurs I believe in. Unsubstantiated propaganda, I'm skeptical of. I'll get a second opinion when another country puts their man on the moon.

As for this girl, until they have proof that she has been sexually molested per the definition of it in the Family Code, the state has nothing on her or her mother, and are just bluffing. Think about it; if they had solid evidence of sexual assault, don't you think they would have charged the mother or father by now with a crime? Denying something that didn't happen doesn't not equal noncooperation, unless it's in the warped mind of the egotistical CPS bureaucrats.

Re: Joey | 1:04 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

How do you know that they dont have proof? The state can not release any information regarding sexual abuse of a minor. I have yet to see a doctor report that suggests that the child was or was not abused. As for charges, her father has been indicted for conducting an unlawful marriage ceremony involving a minor. This is a felony! The mother is probably viewed as a victim so I doubt that she will be charged.

re: Joey | 1:23 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

FLDS girls are trained to accept whichever man they're told is their husband; however, as Elissa Wall's case demonstrates, not all of them are willing. In this case, from the sounds of it, it was actually more her father who consented, not the girl: "Then I looked at Merril Jessop and he looked at me and he said, ï¿½I am willing,ï¿½ and smiled. I said, ï¿½I am willing.ï¿½ I explained that the Lord wanted this young lady to be sealed to me to carry on in her trainingï¿½ Jeffs said in a July 27, 2006 dictation in which he said Jessop married a daughter to Jeffs.

In any case, what real choice do they have? At a young age, they have no ability to support themselves independently. They also face pressure from their own parents, the man they consider to have a direct line with God, and the community. They have been told since birth to expect and accept this situation. And pretty soon they'll have young dependent children, while still lacking any the skills to support themselves.

Forcing a 12-year-old into marriage, even if the actual consummation has not yet taken place, is still abuse.

R | 1:31 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Anon@1:04

Warren Jeffs has not been indicted for sexually abusing MJ. The only "proof" of abuse they seem to have is the documentation of the marriage ceremony.

I don't think they would hesitate to charge Barbara if they have any evidence MJ was in fact sexually abused.

Re:R | 1:42 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Warren Jeffs has been indicted for aggravated sexual assault and sexually assaulting a child. There are no details about who he sexually assaulted. There will be no details because it involves a minor and the state can not release information involving a minor.

crazy | 2:35 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

wow - you FLDs will grasp at any straws to further your bizarre beliefs... grow up and realize little girls are supposed to be PROTECTED by their parents, not pimped out by them.

the mother needs to go to jail just for being an idiot...

John Pack Lambert | 1:44 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009

To the 10:59 commentator,
The fact that CPS used belief that polygamy is acceptable as grounds to not place the girl with one of her relatives shows that CPS has began judging people on their beliefs instead of on thier actions.
Beliefs are religion and to judge and penalize people for their belief is to judge and penalize them for their religion.
It is CPS that from the beganing has used religion as the center of its case. It argued that it should be able to take all the children at YFZ because they were all part of the same religion.
It is CPS and not its opponants that have injected belief and religion into the debate.
Freedom of Religion means that a person has the right to believe whatever they want, even when you find it a false or objectionable belief.

John Pack Lambert | 1:47 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009

To K,
You can not punish someone for breaking cultural norms, only for breaking the law.
Arranged marriages are not illegal and therefore performing them can not alone be the ground for punishing someone.
I also advise that you read the Bill of Rights and get a grip on principals like "innocent until proven guilty". The bill of rights is designed to make it so you can not convict someone merely on dislike or suspicion, you have to have real accusers who real appear and delineate real crimes that are in violation of laws that existed when the acts occured.
No ex post facto laws.

John Pack Lambert | 1:54 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009

Have some of you people never heard of in school medical exams. At least when I was in 6th grade (12-years-old) in our sex ed class they told us about how girls could go to the doctor and talk to him about having had sex and get him to agree to not tell their mother. And that was in 1993.

amazing | 2:02 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009

i find it hard to believe that the FLDS are smart enough to commit welfare fraud, but too stupid to see that pedophilia is wrong.

all the FLDS defenders crack me up....keep up the good work!

nochoice | 4:33 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009

If you never knew anything but this life the flds teaches you from birth, you will most likely never believe anyone in the outside world.Flds makes sex with little children a good and wonderful thing god wants you to do .Now the old men make the rules so they can keep having little children for sex on and on and on . Religion is the excuse for this behavior.HUMMMMMMMM

R | 4:07 a.m. Jan. 9, 2009

"Amazing" thinks there's "welfare fraud" among the FLDS. I wonder what propaganda s/he'll be regurgitating next.

Anonymous thinks | 1:34 p.m. Jan. 9, 2009

that we can't stop religious beliefs unless they hurt others. Well, they have...over and over. This practice HURTS people and it is and will continue to be stopped.

Andrea | 4:48 p.m. Jan. 9, 2009

"Arranged marriages are not illegal and therefore performing them can not alone be the ground for punishing someone."

1) The marriage took place between a older man and a 12 year old child! Its illegal to marry a minor of that age in any state!

2) The marriage was not preformed legally. Any sort of touching could qualify as child abuse or child rape since the age of consent is 17 in Texas.

This is not an issue of arranged marriage, this is an issue of child abuse. If the girl has been 17 or had been legally married to Jeffs then there might be some legal ground to stand on.

re: common sense | 2:48 p.m. Jan. 10, 2009

To quote: "The law of God is our only protection. The law of the land should be appendage to that. When the law of the land conflicts with the law of God, that automatically creates law breakers, which must either defy the law of God or the law of the land. I choose the law of God, how about you?"

Ok. Then logically, you don't need to fight the system. God will fight it for you. Merrill, et al, can turn themselves in. You can stop lying to the heathen authorities and tell the truth about what you believe and practice and trust God to take care of you and sort it all out. You either believe God or you don't. If you believe "His Laws" (as you define them) are supreme, then you should exercise your faith to the limit by being completely open and honest about who married whom and when.

If your leaders truly believed what they taught, they would encourage you to own your beliefs. They aren't doing that, because they don't trust God to save them from the consequences of their actions.

R | 7:43 a.m. Jan. 11, 2009

//You can stop lying to the heathen authorities//

Which lies are you referring to?

re:R | 1:51 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009

"Which lies are you referring to?"

Specifically, the refusal to be upfront and honest with the authorities about who is married to whom (spiritually or otherwise) and who each child's parents are. That's pretty simple stuff and the refusal to be upfront caused a lot problems for everyone. I saw interviews in which women were asked how many wives their husbands had and they declined to answer. While not a lie, per se, it was a refusal to stand up and take ownership of lifestyle and beliefs. You either believe God or you don't. If you believe God, you should be unfailingly upfront and honest about your practices and beliefs and fear nothing.

Hiding who you are and what you do, only proves you fear what you consider to be the unsaved authorities more than you fear God. If your leadership possessed the faith they claim and expect of you, they would be upfront, honest and fearless as well. They are not -because they don't believe their own words. You never see Jesus lying to or being evasive with authorities or with Satan in scripture. Why should the FLDS leadership or community behave differently?

exiled | 11:23 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009

If it were only 2 disgruntled women exposing what life was like in those cults, maybe I'd not believe what I've read. But it is scores of them. I have to think there are hundreds more who just don't want to bother going public. Now that they are out of the brainwashing, they are ashamed of having been so clueless, and of allowing their kids to grow up in that sexually deviant atmosphere.
Religion? Give me a break. Horrible mental abuse of women shouldn't be part of anyone's religion. It's just randy old men wanting harems.

Moroni | 1:39 a.m. Jan. 16, 2009

I grew up knowing Warren Jeffs and his father Rulon. I can personally vouch for their characters. They have both stated that there will not be many marriages under the legal age. They also have made only but a few exceptions. The marriages are based upon the desires of the bride-to-be when she is ready. but it doesn't have everything to do with what she thinks. Her parents have to agree with her before she "turns herself in" to be married by their leader(match-maker). it hardly ever happens that she would be privileged to be 'his' bride. Marriages performed there are religious in nature. not based at all on attraction, nor on whim. Prayer and fasting are the norm in those meetings between the Prophet and his visitors when they meet with him. If you check, you will find CPS found no signs of abuse to her body or to her pleasantness or virginity.

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2 photos

Photo entered into court evidence shows FLDS leader Warren Jeffs and a girl whom authorities claim was 12 at the time they were married. The girl's face in the photo is blurred intentionally to protect her identity.

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