Deseret News | FLDS report says 12 girls married underage

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FLDS report says 12 girls married underage

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sarah | 9:37 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Big deal .. why can't the authorities just leave us alone to live our lives in the way that the Heavenly Father through the prophets instructed us to

Amy | 10:16 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

It's a shame that the FLDS are participating in this kind of abuse. It's also a shame that Texas has handled this whole thing so poorly adding to the abuse. All of the abusers, including Texas CPS, absolutely disgust me.

K | 10:15 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

It is a crime. That's why.

That attitude is exactly why the children weren't safe in the care of the communial environment in which they were being raised.

Comments continue below

Sarah | 10:21 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Itis a big deal, Matthew 19:5 Jesus says a man sould be married to one woman not many,show your prophet.

JWW | 10:21 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

These statistics put out by Texas CPS are worthless without knowing the circumstance, dates and places where the young women were married. For example, prior to September 2005 it was legal to be married at the age of 14 in Texas. If the young women were married at 14 prior to that time, then the marriage is legal. It is only after the FLDS moved in to Texas that the age of consent to marry was raised in order to target the FLDS specifically. Also, if they were married in a State where a young marriage is legal and then moved to Texas, then the marriage is still legal. For CPS to claim that they were all abused is laughable considering the lack of this important information.

Hammer them | 10:25 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

I'm glad someone is standing up for these kids. I can't imagine my daughter being raised to be one of many wives or marry an old man. Texas CPS has my respect!

dave4197 | 10:28 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

The flds are the abusers and the problem here, not "the authorities", not even Texas. In this day and age, we expect parents to protect their minor children, not treat them as property like the flds have done. In this case duly elected governments needed to act act, and did act, and will act. The flds need to recognize the abyss they've fallen into, begin to pull themselves out of it, and stop looking for dirt in the eyes of the rest of us.

This must be true | 10:33 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Because the State of Texas has such a good track record when it comes to providing accurate information about the FLDS to the media and courts.

Hello? Isn't this the same Texas CPS that exaggerated and falsified information so badly last spring that even the Texas Supreme Court refused to believe it?

Why on earth is anyone giving any credibility to this report?

JrzWrld | 10:40 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Really, sarah? Big Deal? Why can't you be left alone to practice your religion? Ummm, ok. Say my heavenly father demands child sacrifice or randomly punching people wearing plaid. Why can't I be left alone to practice my religion as my god wishes?

I support the right of the FLDS to practice their religion up until the point it injures someone else. And I do believe that a 13-year-old being married off is being injured.

Polygamy has gone large unprosecuted except when child marriage is involved. If the FLDS had kept it all between adults, the raid never would have happened.

K | 10:47 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

In every state the age of consent and marriage should be 18.

CPS exaggerated and falsified information? If it weren't for the children not knowing their own names and ages and birthdates, done to confuse so the grown ups would have an easier time should authorities step in, this would have been much simpler to work out.

One adult in each bedroom with several child of various ages who may or may not be the adult's children? These children were way too controlled by the adults in the community and CPS was right to step in.

The authorities should get financially reimbursed by the FLDS for all the time and effort they had to put into the case.

Sarah | 10:53 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

If someone would read what Jesus said about polygamy,none of this would have happend.

Joey | 10:58 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Assuming these stats are true, and that a few 15 year olds got married, I think it's highly disingenuous that CPS predicated their raid on these few 15 year old marriages (there's no evidence the 12-14 year olds had ever had sex) that occurred several years ago, around the time the laws changed, raising the minimum marriage age from 14 to 16. Calling something "child abuse" that just 3 years ago was legal is disingenuous. Further no marriages had occurred in the sect in the past 3 years, so saying 300 children were neglected and in imminent risk of abuse, is just plain dishonest on CPS' part.

re sarah | 11:02 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

so, sarah, how old are you? either you're an adult that cares not for the welfare of children, or you're a child that has been brainwashed to believe you are "destined" to be married to someone chosen for you by a group of old men.

Either way, you are so misguided it boggles the imagination.

Don't you want to fall in love and marry someone you will be happy with? Do you really want to be stuck with someone that may not love you and simply wants you to pump out children for him?

you have a choice. That's God's will - that you have free will. That's His gift to you. And for you to throw it all away based on the direction of some guy that got his "prophet"-ness simply because his dad died is totally wrong.

You want to honor God? Use your free will to find true happiness rather than be stuck with someone picked by others. And do the same for your children. Give them the gift that God gave them - free will to find happiness.

You can be a good FLDS and still not bow to the will of the men.

Blaming the victims, eh K? | 11:11 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

So the next time a mentally-deranged woman calls the DCFS and tells them you're abusing your kids, the government should be allowed to bust down your door and stick an MP-5 in your face?

You obviously are too busy marinating in your prejudices to address the issue objectively. Let's try this again, more slowly:

The Texas Supreme Court, after hearing all the "evidence" gathered by the Texas CPS, ORDERED them to give the kids back because they held that -- based on the evidence that was presented to them -- THERE WAS NO LEGAL JUSTIFICATION TO TAKE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Just because some social worker "thinks" that kids are being abused doesn't mean they are.

And just because people don't like polygamy doesn't mean the government can ignore due process.

Cosmo | 11:21 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

FLDS; may I suggest, that all who enter into a plural marriage, be 21 or older, with a maximum age difference of 15 years. In addition, the women deserve to have a choice. They are not cattle.

Sad how it comes to this | 11:26 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Since when is protecting children a bad idea? It seems crazy to me that people truly question this whole idea of CPS trying to protect children. I will agree CPS is not always perfect, but it has to start somewhere. I work with survivors of sexual abuse and they too thought growing up it was acceptable. It is sad to see how it has effected the rest of their lives.

Sarah 11 | 11:29 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

This is what Smith had a shootout about and lost. Jesus says one man one woman.

Re: 9:37 a.m. | 11:31 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

The reason behind why Utah's population grew faster than any other state last year, is simple, they don't believe in same-sex marriage, and do it the right way.

Ace | 11:46 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Good job Texas!!!! Where has Utah been since 1890?

sarah | 11:54 a.m. Dec. 23, 2008

I am proud to be the 3rd wife of my wonderful husband and we have a well balanced family. I was married when I was 16 and am now 21 and am perfectly capable of not selling out the principle of the one true church for the sake of statehood and greedy dollars. Leave us alone and we will be just fine.

Anonymous | 12:06 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Actually, both sides of the coin are wrong. The underage marriages place the young women in severe risk of abuse. Check the state statute, the government doesn't need much suspicion of abuse to start poking around.

Texas on the other hand, completely botched the investigation and seizure of the kids from the ranch. Wish I was a civil rights lawyer representing some of the FLDS women and children. Money in the bank.

To JWW and Joey | 12:28 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

If you read the article carefully - it says the 12 marriages occurred between 2004 and 2006 (2 years). 2 girls were aged 12 - illegal in Texas then and now, 3 were aged 13, illegal in Texas then and now, 2 aged 14, illegal in Texas after 2005, and 5 aged 15, apparently legal in Texas. The article further states that 7 of the 'brides' have children. So, unless one or more of the 15 year olds had twins, or babies one after the other in two years, and assuming each of the 15 year olds were the ones who did get pregnant, at least two of the 12, 13 or 14 year olds had children. As becoming pregnant without sex is quite rare, then it would be incorrect to say that their 'husband' did not have sex with their new 'wife'.

Also you state that it was legal to marry in Texas at age 14 before 2005. Yes - apparently so. But these weren't 'legal' marriages, as the men already had at least one other wife who would be the 'legal' wife.

yo | 12:30 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

caution, the "sarah" that is talking on this comment board is not FLDS. The last "Sarah" was Flora Jessop or Rozita Swinton. no need to answer or reason with her

Sad how it comes to this | 12:39 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

The last individual made great points. Having sex with a minor is ILLEGAL. And at the age of 16 you are not able to decide for your the rest one's life. Even at age 21 a person is not able to fully understand the ramifications of such abuse. I grew up Catholic myself and only now am I am to grasp the idea of those religious authorities abusing their power to their followers. I am not able to understand how anyone under the age of 18 is able to understand a marriage or sex.

Cats | 1:05 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

To Sarah: This is what is referred to as "Stockholm Syndrome." It's really hard to help people when they are such willing victims. When someone is so brainwashed and has never had a chance to know any other way, it's really hard for them to see the truth.

I was in "Short Creek" last week. All those huge compounds have BIG, HUGE fences around them. Is this to keep all the women out that are dying to get in? Or is it possibly to keep desperate women from fleeing in the night?

Warren Jeffs has PUBLICLY proclaimed that he is NOT a prophet, he NEVER was a prophet and he is one of the most wicked men of this dispensation. It's time the FLDS get out of denial and face the truth.

This is so sad. I really applaud Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop, Elissa Wall and all the others who have had the courage to run and fight against this abuse.

JWW | 1:07 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Reply to 12:28 p.m.:

Where does the article state that the husbands are polygamists? At least half of the families on the ranch are not polygamists. Where does the article state where the couples were married? Maybe they weren't married in Texas. These are important facts that Texas CPS is leaving out.

If the young women with children are the ones married at 14 and 15 and if those marriages occurred before September 2005, then it is all legal regardless of other's sensibilities.

It has also been pointed out by the FLDS that a spiritual marriage does not mean sex was involved. No sex and no state approved marriage equals no crime.

I'd like you to find any high school in Texas with better statistics for teen pregnancy than the FLDS.

Timothy | 1:13 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

If you keep woman pregnant and starting as children, please tell me what choices do they have other than to stick around and take the abuse and play baby machine to some old pig, and because these twisted old men tell these young girls that it is revelation from God. This is down right disgusting!

I do however believe that the Sarah on this board is a fraud and a deceitful liar.

Joey | 1:17 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Well, even by this report, the very best case scenario for the CPS is 170+ law suits for taking children without probable cause, by their own admission.

nosugrof | 1:25 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Everybody should have learned by now that you cant trust figures put out by Texas CPS. Yet people stil everything that CPS has to say. Other evidence shows that these numbers are inflated.

Sound advice II | 1:24 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

The first post illustrated what our children are hearing. The moral crisis in 600 BC that almost destroyed ancient Greece was based on the sophist convincing by augment what was right. Socrates disagreed saying there was a divine right. Take the moral high ground in this flood of emotion. Stop calling for vengeance against Texas or the FDLS. The right thing in this case will make Texas a better place to live, and the FDLS a stronger community. Quite joining the sophistries of these lawyers in their adversarial system, it is destroying our social moral fiber. We need to stop bickering over cost and pushing private agendas. We need to restore these families, and help Texas provide them choices without forcing them to relinquish everything they believe in. We tried that with the Native Americans and we managed to damage much more than just their way of life. What marriage arrangement you feel is ideal doesnï¿½t matter ï¿½ nor does who ends up paying for this mess. Just try to make the benefits of this outweigh the cost. This is not a battle, we do not want a winner and loser ï¿½ we want a win win.

It's about time | 1:36 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

It's about time to bring out the "turkey baster defense".

Timothy | 1:41 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

I meant the SARAH of 11:54 a.m.

Carla | 1:51 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Obviously, sex was an issue, because these young girls had children by the time the raid took place. Any man who marries and has sex with minor girls, is a pedofile.

K. D. | 1:57 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Texas did the right thing. It's about time this horrible situation was halted in it's tracks. FLDS children finally have rights! And FLDS parents must give them those rights.

I say hooray for Texas!

Brother Chuck Schroeder | 2:00 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Remember the word Polygamy?, starts with the letter "P", and, should be changed to any man or w-oman who marries and has sex with minor child, is a pedofile. That's the truth. That's my view. What's yours?. This is very interesting that 12 girls from the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch are confirmed victims of sexual abuse and neglect because they were married at ages ranging from 12 to 15 and also 43 girls removed from the ranch from the ages of 12 to 17 which means that more than one out of every four pubescent girls on the ranch was in an underage marriage plus these other fact's that 262 other children were subjected to neglect because parents failed to remove their child from a situation in which the child would be exposed to sexual abuse committed against another child within their families or households. Question remains how could the Prophet determined when and who a girl should marry?.

This must be true also here to | 2:01 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

Did not Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, also have a underage wife to like this?.

To JWW | 2:06 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

The article says that the marriages were 'spiritual' marriages, not legal first marriages!

re sarah | 2:56 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

sarah cracks me up. she has absolutely no clue about how life is elsewhere. stuck in her own little world - God is simply astonished that she is wasting her life. Pray all you want, sarah - you've probably already blown it - and if you do to your children what you have allowed for yourself, then you will be getting what you deserve. And no - it won't be a spot by the Lord's side... it will be WAY downstream...

Call it like it is. ..Disgusting | 2:57 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

"What Texas did was barbaric and it's a terrible injustice," he said Tuesday. "It's un-American."

The above statement should have put the blame where it originally belonged. It is the FLDS that were barbaric in using a concept that was never intended to even be in the 21st century! That is all history now and does not belong in current day vocabulary much less society.

Nevertheless, crimes have been committed, and justice needs to be served to protect the underage girls and their babies. They need normalcy but that will never happen. The damage is done, yet those responsible are accountable!

Texas is only trying to correct the wrongs done already to the innocent young women and their children. It is not the state's fault someone called it in, they had to do something. The results are far reaching vs going undiscovered and unprotected by the law.

Society is the teacher here. If people do not abide by truth and the law, they have to answer to it, and be accountable regardless. No one is above the law. Period.

Repent you sinners | 3:03 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

All you FLDS men need to repent!

realitycheck | 3:12 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

re Joey 1:17pm

170+ lawsuits, eh? so - would that be a good thing or a bad thing? are you saying you want to take taxpayer money and give it to a group of people that stood by and let these underage marriage abuses occur? I mean, everyone there knew what was happening but did nothing.

Are you not concerned that future abused children won't be protected because the CPS had to give their budget to a group of people that stood by as their young girls were handed off like so much cattle?

Are you sure you want to be an advocate for the FLDS parents?

Brother Chuck - in answer to your question - the "prophet" determined whom was to marry whom anytime it was in his best interest and he would get something out of it. Just like banishing men and re-assigning families.

if the FLDS were smart, they would come to understand that God is the one they should be showing blind obedience to - everyone else is a poser. Maybe they will figure it out someday...

by the way - had I known we were related, "brother", I'd have sent you a Christmas card.

John Pack Lambert | 3:30 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

To JWW,
A marriage of a 14-year-old is only legal if it is condoned through proper processes and entered into in a way that is legal according to the state of Texas. Parents can not just tell a 45-year-old man "It is OK for you to have sex with my daughter".
You have to have followed all the legal procedures in procuring the marriage. Some states require notorized forms from the parents, other require the parent to formally give permission before a judge, but you have to go through the legal process to get a legal marriage and not be in violation of statutory rape laws.

JR | 4:01 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

To: John Pack Lambert...WHO CARES WHAT YOU WANT TO MAKE LEGAL-- GET A LIFE MAN! That is not what Texas is trying to do. you are something else!

Huff and Puff | 4:01 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

John Lambert is on here...end of story.

FooLeD uS | 4:15 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

I was in st george over thanksgiving. At walmart I saw several flds. Guess what they were buying... Blue ray dvds! It looks like they're starting to loosen up now that their leaders are in jail.

I'm not lds, but my grandfather was a bishop in Utah back in the 1960s. His grandparents were lds polygamists in the late 1800s. Unlike most of you, I am not ashamed of my family history and, although I don't necesarily agree with how it is practiced, I think its kinda cool that there are still people keepin' it real. They claim to have stopped the underage marriages and if true, they need to be left alone to freely practice their religion.

When the flds do it, its so horrible, but when Hugh Hef dates multiple girls way younger than himself, its "the girls next door". Apparently, you can love to sleep with more than one woman, but you cannot love more than one woman that you sleep with.

Good thing lds leaders never took fourteen year old girls as plural wives, cough, joseph smith, cough cough, brigham young. On a lighter note, Merry Christmas everybody (exept flds posters that don't celebrate). Later!

And population growth | 4:21 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

is always a good thing? Give us a break (tell that to China!

realitycheck | 4:23 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

wow, JR - you ok? need a paper bag cuz you're hyperventilating? calm down, man.

for once, I agree with John. Granted, he usually posts way more than mortal man should, but in this case he is right. None of the marriages were legal so it is in fact statuatory rape.

perhaps JR is one of the men accused of such, or related to one. Perhaps now you will understand how NOT to commit a crime.... I'm quite sure your daughters will appreciate it...

To; Sarahs | 4:30 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

I really feel bad for the FLDS because I can see how confused they must be. On one hand they want to follow the prophets council on practicing plural marriage , but on the other hand they are not obeying Joseph Smith's council which is to live by the LAWS of the land. We read even in the bible that there were many men even prophets that god granted permission to have more than one wife. The thing is the lord has a time table for everything. He gives when the time is right and he takes away..The time we live in now is not the time to be practicing plural marriage. He has commanded the church to stop practicing it, for what ever reason. The FlDS do not understand this. This is the Lord's time table not theirs. Take a look at the outcome of what they are doing.. not very prosperous.. As to take a look at the LDs church from which they have broken off from, it is prospering like a rose.

Alex | 4:32 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

sarah:

"I was married when I was 16 and am now 21 and am perfectly capable of not selling out the principle of the one true church for the sake of statehood and greedy dollars. Leave us alone and we will be just fine."

Actually, you should be thanking your lucky stars for the LDS doing what it did from 1890 through 1904. It is not likely that you would be in a position to even practice polygamy secretly today if the LDS had not stopped practicing it when it did.

Joey | 4:38 p.m. Dec. 23, 2008

realitycheck, again you assume people "stood by" while young girls were raped. You know nothing about the situations of the individual families that were nonsuited by CPS. Even CPS admits they have no evidence that many of these families condoned or practiced underage marriage. What they do admit to is taking their children and putting them through a battery of physical tests, vaccinations, interrogations, and above all, forcible separation from their parents for months, which can be difficult for a two year old or five year old to understand. Now that CPS essentially admits these removals were done in error, I believe the just thing to do would be to apologize and compensate the innocent families for the pain and suffering they went through this year at the hands of CPS unnecessarily.

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