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Readers' forum: Scrooge a conservative
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Anon | 12:28 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
I never read of Scrooge calling for coerced "charity" - which is the
hallmark of a modern "liberal."
Anonymous | 12:39 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
"A Christmas Carol" is a amazing allegory of English capitalism in
Dickens time. The story is so well written most people miss the context the
characters occupy.
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only"
A writer can't hone his craft to greater perfection.
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only"
A writer can't hone his craft to greater perfection.
Ha!! | 12:50 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Breck!! Awesome letter. It is so true, particularly when it comes to issues of
immigration. "It's their own fault, I'm not responsible for
them, they're criminals, they belong in jail, send them away," etc
etc. etc.
Obviously they'll all throw their heads back and howl at this comparison. But that's only because it's so accurate. The wicked taketh the truth to be hard.
Obviously they'll all throw their heads back and howl at this comparison. But that's only because it's so accurate. The wicked taketh the truth to be hard.
Comments continue below
mark | 1:04 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Eh, that is cool Anonymous 12:39, but of course the quote you provide is not
from A Christmas Carol.
Roland Kayser | 1:27 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Scrooge was a selfish jerk. Today, you can find selfish jerks among
conservatives, moderates, and liberals. You can also find kind, generous people
among all political persuasions.
Call Me Scrooge | 4:50 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Scrooge did not contribute his charity through an extremely inefficient
organization, but directly to those in need.
Why would anyone want an organization that returns only a fraction of the money if ever receives to those it was "targeted" for in the first place?
Perhaps Scrooge had a change of heart but at least he didn't waste the vast majority of his money by handing it over to the Government to completely screw it up.
Why would anyone want an organization that returns only a fraction of the money if ever receives to those it was "targeted" for in the first place?
Perhaps Scrooge had a change of heart but at least he didn't waste the vast majority of his money by handing it over to the Government to completely screw it up.
Johnny Bravo | 5:49 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Actually if Scrooge had become a liberal he would've ran around London the
next morning stealing from every working stiff in town in order to indulge his
newfound charitable urges. Then he would've handed out the money only to
people who belonged to the "right" religious, ethnic, racial and
gender identification groups - which, at the time, would've excluded most
of London. He would've then pocketed 30% of the money to compensate himself
for his noble efforts.
Euradud | 6:00 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
A tiny little bit of research will prove to you that Liberals are charitable
with everybody else's money but tend to be Scrooge-like when it comes to
donating their own money. Charities would certainly vanish if not for religious
conservatives.
CC essay prt 1 | 6:36 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Someone needs to study up on their Christmas Carol!
Scrooge was neither liberal or conservative. In fact he is closest to what a moderate is. In Richard Wilkins' "Carol of Redemption," it reads:
"The "Carol" taught that pursuit of lierty, without more, makes money--but not a decent society.
"Some may suppose that this economic message is all there is to the "Carol". There is more. The essential flaw of Ebenezer Scrooge--and in English society--was not that he (or it) valued economic liverty too much. Economic liberty is a good thing. But it is not the only thing. Scrooge's focus on economic liberty as the only legitimate social value resulted in his bitter isolation rather than Bob Cratchit's friendly hearth.
"America is replicating an analogous evil. We are, I fear, walking the same path as Ebenezer Scrooge. We no longer lay our offerings on the altar of economic liberty worshiped by old Ebenezer. No, our current infatuation with self-centeredness is more sophisticated: we idolize not economic efficiency, but rather autonomy and individual "rights." This modern focus on isolation and unfettered liberty, however, does little to distance us from Mr. Scrooge."
Scrooge was neither liberal or conservative. In fact he is closest to what a moderate is. In Richard Wilkins' "Carol of Redemption," it reads:
"The "Carol" taught that pursuit of lierty, without more, makes money--but not a decent society.
"Some may suppose that this economic message is all there is to the "Carol". There is more. The essential flaw of Ebenezer Scrooge--and in English society--was not that he (or it) valued economic liverty too much. Economic liberty is a good thing. But it is not the only thing. Scrooge's focus on economic liberty as the only legitimate social value resulted in his bitter isolation rather than Bob Cratchit's friendly hearth.
"America is replicating an analogous evil. We are, I fear, walking the same path as Ebenezer Scrooge. We no longer lay our offerings on the altar of economic liberty worshiped by old Ebenezer. No, our current infatuation with self-centeredness is more sophisticated: we idolize not economic efficiency, but rather autonomy and individual "rights." This modern focus on isolation and unfettered liberty, however, does little to distance us from Mr. Scrooge."
Jim III | 6:52 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Having been associated with a lot of liberals and conservatives over the years,
I have to disagree with the writer of the letter.
Scrooge was just a plain mean miser.
He was neither conservative or liberal.
A liberal will take the coat off someone else's back and give it to a needy person. All the while claiming his "love" for the both persons.
A conservative will buy a coat for the needy person, while complaining that the needy was not doing enough to help themselves.
Scrooge was just a plain mean miser.
He was neither conservative or liberal.
A liberal will take the coat off someone else's back and give it to a needy person. All the while claiming his "love" for the both persons.
A conservative will buy a coat for the needy person, while complaining that the needy was not doing enough to help themselves.
Anonymous | 7:24 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Roland, I believe I agree with you for the first time.
Ban the book! | 7:36 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
I'm concerned that Dickens talks about snow in London when it doesn't
snow in London anymore. Liberals will say it is global warming! But we know it
is really that since the Industrial Revolution, the weather has changed
naturally on its own!
Johnny Bravo | 8:08 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Politics and charity do not mix. I have always been conservative; I used to be
more charitable. I have gotten stingier not as my politics has changed but as
I've discovered and become disgusted by the politicization of so many
"charities," including the local United Way, the Catholic Church, and
my alma mater, the U.
Study after study has revealed that conservatives are more charitable than liberals.
Study after study has revealed that conservatives are more charitable than liberals.
Johnny Bravo | 8:39 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
It snows in London. I've been there when it was. My visit, I should note,
was well after the onset of the Industrial Revolution.
Ernest T. Bass | 9:52 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Great observation Breck. Know who else was a liberal, who put the old
conservatives on edge? Jesus Christ.
He brought new thought and perspective on everything the conservatives believed in.
I find it ironic that most conservatives are unable to see who the ultimate liberal was:
Love your fellow men.
Take care of the poor.
Don't be greedy (its harder for a rich man to enter heaven than to pass a camel through the eye of a needle).
Don't judge others for their lifestyle (one without sin cast the first stone).
As I read scripture I realize that current conservative politics is as far from Jesus Christ as possible.
He brought new thought and perspective on everything the conservatives believed in.
I find it ironic that most conservatives are unable to see who the ultimate liberal was:
Love your fellow men.
Take care of the poor.
Don't be greedy (its harder for a rich man to enter heaven than to pass a camel through the eye of a needle).
Don't judge others for their lifestyle (one without sin cast the first stone).
As I read scripture I realize that current conservative politics is as far from Jesus Christ as possible.
Isaac | 10:21 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Being compassionate or giving and a conservative are not mutually exclusive.
Scrooge's giving was done of his own free will and choice-done directly to
those who truly needed assistance. If this story were repeated under the
current political ideals of our day, Bob Cratchet and the other
"have-nots" would surround Scrooge and strip him of all his wealth-and
then hate him for the very reason that he left them no choice but to take it
from him. Would Scrooge still be the noble "liberal" that some of you
have surmised he was if that happened? I think not. He would have resented the
folks like you who want something for nothing. Helping people is not the issue
here...the issue is how you seek the help.
Anonymous | 10:44 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
mark | 1:04 a.m We both know I quoted from "A tale of Two Cities." My
point was that few writers have ever equaled Dickens in the art of crafting
English. Reading "A Tale of Two Cities" so young,, we missed the
obvious beauty of the opening paragraph, like most of us miss that "A
Christmas Carol" was a damning commentary indeed. Great writing don't
elude to it's perfection in execution like great sculpture does. Great
writing is very concise and exacting. There's not a word too many and not
one world too few. Great stories have rhythm in word and length. Dickens was
very much a conductor, painter and choreographer.
I my humble view, is this weather, read "To Build a Fire" by Jack London. It's free on the Net. Utah is enjoying the perfect weather for this saga. Snow will never look the same to you.
I my humble view, is this weather, read "To Build a Fire" by Jack London. It's free on the Net. Utah is enjoying the perfect weather for this saga. Snow will never look the same to you.
jim bob joe | 10:47 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Jesus NEVER taught a robin hood mentality which is STEAL from the rich and give
to the poor. Conservatives as a whole GIVE more to charities than to liberals,
period! Liberals take from others, give it away, and call it charity rather than
theft.
Besides if Scrooge was a liberal, he would have been running around yelling "happy Holidays" at the end imstead of "Merry Christmas" because it is not PC. Stupid letter with no basis at all.
Besides if Scrooge was a liberal, he would have been running around yelling "happy Holidays" at the end imstead of "Merry Christmas" because it is not PC. Stupid letter with no basis at all.
evensteven | 10:44 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
The great flaw in most of the posts here is to equate humanitarian with liberal,
believing that liberals have a corner on concern for their fellow man. Such is
not the case.
Christ taught that our compassion must be honest and from the heart. It must be personal. Liberals, generally, believe and enforce coerced compassion, using other people's money to further their own vision of what compassion looks like. Rarely do they open their own wallets or schedules to any degree approaching that of conservatives. They also tend to ignore the role of personal responsibility of those receiving charity in contributing to their own betterment.
I would submit that Scrooge started out as a liberal, relying on the government (debtors prisons) to solve the indigent problem. The change made him conservative and personalized his compassion. He gave of his own substance. He did not advocate higher taxes as the remedy.
Those who claim Christ was liberal miss the (conservative) personal action aspects of His teachings. He didn't say 'go avail yourselves of Caesar's wealth'. He said give of your own substance to the poor. He also required the petitioners to do something before granting them compassion and healing.
Christ taught that our compassion must be honest and from the heart. It must be personal. Liberals, generally, believe and enforce coerced compassion, using other people's money to further their own vision of what compassion looks like. Rarely do they open their own wallets or schedules to any degree approaching that of conservatives. They also tend to ignore the role of personal responsibility of those receiving charity in contributing to their own betterment.
I would submit that Scrooge started out as a liberal, relying on the government (debtors prisons) to solve the indigent problem. The change made him conservative and personalized his compassion. He gave of his own substance. He did not advocate higher taxes as the remedy.
Those who claim Christ was liberal miss the (conservative) personal action aspects of His teachings. He didn't say 'go avail yourselves of Caesar's wealth'. He said give of your own substance to the poor. He also required the petitioners to do something before granting them compassion and healing.
Anonymous | 10:52 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Euradud | 6:00 a.m There was a study the conservative propagandist quoted saying
conservatives gave more to charities.
When you looked into the study, you found out that IRS charitable deductions were used as data. The results of the study could have reflected that conservatives were more likely to claim a deduction or to fluff their deductions.
When you looked into the study, you found out that IRS charitable deductions were used as data. The results of the study could have reflected that conservatives were more likely to claim a deduction or to fluff their deductions.
KVC | 1:10 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
@10:52- Is there something wrong with claiming charitable giving on your taxes?
Liberals don't claim as much because they don't give as much.
Don't try and make it sound like liberals give more, but don't claim
it because that is dishonest unless you have actual evidence to back it up. The
truth is, and everyone knows it, liberals believe government should be the ones
to decide who gets the help. Individuals are not capable of making that decision
on their own by their belief.
Seeing how the govt gives to organizations that I disagree with in so many ways, charity should be left to individuals. If you believe in many of the liberal causes, then you are free to give to them, if you disagree, then you can withhold your funds. Nobody should be required to give to organizations they have fundamental disagreements with.
As for Scrooge, isn't it liberals who lack an understanding of the true meaning of Christmas and think Christmas should not be celebrated in any public place. Did Dickens advocate for "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas"? Did he advocate against Nativity Scenes in public? Did he wish to end Christmas parties in schools? All liberal ideas.
Seeing how the govt gives to organizations that I disagree with in so many ways, charity should be left to individuals. If you believe in many of the liberal causes, then you are free to give to them, if you disagree, then you can withhold your funds. Nobody should be required to give to organizations they have fundamental disagreements with.
As for Scrooge, isn't it liberals who lack an understanding of the true meaning of Christmas and think Christmas should not be celebrated in any public place. Did Dickens advocate for "Happy Holidays" over "Merry Christmas"? Did he advocate against Nativity Scenes in public? Did he wish to end Christmas parties in schools? All liberal ideas.
mark | 1:38 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
I was wondering if anyone could direct me to one of these "many
studies" that state that conservatives give more to charity then liberals.
Johnny Bravo | 2:15 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Mark, we're not allowed to post links here, but Google "charitable
giving by political party," then look at the 2006 article in The Chronicle
of Philanthropy (3rd link down on my search). There's a map at the bottom
that's pretty enlightening. The states that donated above the national
average in 2001 match up almost exactly with the states Bush won in 2000 &
2004, with relatively secular Colorado, Nevada and Montana being exceptions.
Incidentally, 2 of those 3 states (CO and NV) Obama won in 2008.
As I said above, I don't necessarily regard this as a positive. Too many established charities, including universities and churches, are veering into leftist politics for my tastes, and many of the conservatives who give to them are suckers.
As I said above, I don't necessarily regard this as a positive. Too many established charities, including universities and churches, are veering into leftist politics for my tastes, and many of the conservatives who give to them are suckers.
Anonymous | 2:31 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
*** "The results of the study could have reflected that conservatives were
more likely to claim a deduction or to fluff their deductions." ***
What evidence do you have that indicates conservatives "fluff their dedcutions"?
Look, when people advocate a behavior, it doesn't mean they're all stinking hypocrites. Mostly it means they actually believe in it, even if they don't always live up to their own standrads. Liberals ARE more likely to recycle. Liberals ARE more likely to drive hybrids. And conservatives ARE more likely to marry rather than live together, not have abortions, and give to charities rather than expect the governmment to step in.
Looking at deductions is a perfectly valid source of data. In spite of common misperception, incomes of both groups are roughly similar.
What evidence do you have that indicates conservatives "fluff their dedcutions"?
Look, when people advocate a behavior, it doesn't mean they're all stinking hypocrites. Mostly it means they actually believe in it, even if they don't always live up to their own standrads. Liberals ARE more likely to recycle. Liberals ARE more likely to drive hybrids. And conservatives ARE more likely to marry rather than live together, not have abortions, and give to charities rather than expect the governmment to step in.
Looking at deductions is a perfectly valid source of data. In spite of common misperception, incomes of both groups are roughly similar.
Randy Ford | 2:44 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Churchill said "If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart,
if you're not a conservative at forty you have no
brain.� How old are you Mr. England?
Conservatives are neither "covetous" nor "grasping". Quite the contrary. True conservatives realize that when humanity is fully accountable for their actions, they are FREE to succeed or fail. With accountability we are FREE to be our best, for the benefit of all mankind.
True liberalism, the 20th century model, seeks a certainty of outcome with no virtually no accountability, to the detriment of all mankind.
So, just how old are you again Mr. England?
Randy
Draper
Conservatives are neither "covetous" nor "grasping". Quite the contrary. True conservatives realize that when humanity is fully accountable for their actions, they are FREE to succeed or fail. With accountability we are FREE to be our best, for the benefit of all mankind.
True liberalism, the 20th century model, seeks a certainty of outcome with no virtually no accountability, to the detriment of all mankind.
So, just how old are you again Mr. England?
Randy
Draper
umm | 3:43 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
All of George Orwell's villans were liberal - so what's your point?
Utah Rose | 3:57 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Scrooge was a man of his own time. Many of the business men were like that both
here and in England.
But for your information, in this country conservatives give more to charities then liberals.
But for your information, in this country conservatives give more to charities then liberals.
wrz | 4:23 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Isaac | 10:21 a.m. >>>Scrooge's giving was done of his own free
will and choice...<<<
No, no. Scrooge was coerced into giving, with the threat of dire happenings.
No, no. Scrooge was coerced into giving, with the threat of dire happenings.
Anonymous | 4:52 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Of course Scrooge was a conservative. And like the conservatives of our day, it
took an outside force (3 Spirits showing him what's what) to get Scrooge to
see the error of his ways.
Booting neocons out of the House and Senate was the first Spirit; The General Election of a left leaning black guy named Obama to the presidency was the next.
The coming together instead of polarization by calling people "liberals" and "socialists" will be the third ghost of today's story.
But people are liberal by nature, so there is great reason to hope for the best.
Booting neocons out of the House and Senate was the first Spirit; The General Election of a left leaning black guy named Obama to the presidency was the next.
The coming together instead of polarization by calling people "liberals" and "socialists" will be the third ghost of today's story.
But people are liberal by nature, so there is great reason to hope for the best.
Anonymous | 5:00 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Anonymous | 10:52 You missed my point. You're gleaning again.
If you use IRS data you make an assumption. Does greed increase the propensity to claim charitable giving you never gave or to rise its values?
Is the use of deductions the best source to compare giving?
IRS claims there a tax gap because people fill out their tax forms to minimize taxes. If you earn 50,000,000, you could claim that you have $1000 in charity and never risk an audit. You hire a good account, they know were the flags are at?
My point is data must be normalized. The study was a bad study. Conservatives never check the source material.
Randy why isn't Bush accountable? Honestly, I have never heard an accountable conservative. Are you accountable for Obama being elected for voting for Bush? Does Reagan have any accountability for cutting and running from Beirut, training Islamic extremist or for selling arms to Iran?
You got your talking point without a flaw.
If you use IRS data you make an assumption. Does greed increase the propensity to claim charitable giving you never gave or to rise its values?
Is the use of deductions the best source to compare giving?
IRS claims there a tax gap because people fill out their tax forms to minimize taxes. If you earn 50,000,000, you could claim that you have $1000 in charity and never risk an audit. You hire a good account, they know were the flags are at?
My point is data must be normalized. The study was a bad study. Conservatives never check the source material.
Randy why isn't Bush accountable? Honestly, I have never heard an accountable conservative. Are you accountable for Obama being elected for voting for Bush? Does Reagan have any accountability for cutting and running from Beirut, training Islamic extremist or for selling arms to Iran?
You got your talking point without a flaw.
Johnny Bravo | 5:01 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
If we're bringing Dickensian villains into it then we can't forget
Mrs. Jellyby of "Bleak House." She was a villian in the sense that she
let her own children rot whilst obsessing about children 5,000 miles away -
kinda like liberals today, who worry more about kids in Africa than about the
family down the street; who advocate bringing tens of millions of immigrants
here in spite of the harm done to American workers. It's a funny kind of
charity that benefits the rich, harms the native poor, and advocates a policy
that businesses just happen to really, really like.
KVC | 5:43 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
I would like to clear up a common mis-conception stated above. There is a belief
that Robin hood was liberal. Actual he was conservative if you understand the
story. He did not "take from the rich and give to the poor". In the
story, the govt was taxing people heavily and taking control of their land, what
liberals advocate. Robin Hood took the taxes back from the govt and returned
them to the people. This was a corrupt govt that attempted to overthrow the king
while at war. Much like the liberals who wanted to overthrow Bush on spurious
charges.
So if you look at it, Robin Hood was a conservative who opposed high taxes.
So if you look at it, Robin Hood was a conservative who opposed high taxes.
Mark B | 6:09 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
As we meet Scrooge, he's the embodiment of everything written by Walter
Williams. He's then redeemed through the efforts of others, though
it's hard to see why he deserves it. The real hero is Bob Cratchit.
Anonymous | 6:22 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
I had no idea that Scrooge was a limited-government fan.
Hey Mark: Why don't you check out Dick Cheney's charitable giving compared to Al Gore or pre-campaign Obama.
Hey Mark: Why don't you check out Dick Cheney's charitable giving compared to Al Gore or pre-campaign Obama.
digum | 6:41 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
wrz
Scrooge was not coerced into giving. He was simply shown the consequences of his current actions and then chose to change.
Scrooge was not coerced into giving. He was simply shown the consequences of his current actions and then chose to change.
RE: anonymous 4:52 | 6:56 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Scrooge was the quintessential LIBERAL.
HE expecected by taxes and government programs to take care of the poor and needy.
The spirits taught him that it is INDIVIDUAL charity that is more important.
True compassion, which only conservative posses, come from self,
IT not compassion when, like socialists want, when you FORCE others to pay for your compassion. vis-a-vis by taxes on your chosen "HATE" group or, in reality, taxes on everyone. especially everyone else.
Scrooge's heart was changes he became greatly concerned about what HE could do individually, and personally,
NOT what he could get governemnt to do,
NOT how he could force everyon else to do something by governmeny edict or tax.
THAT is Charity, the true love of Christ, that is real compassion and love for your neighbor.
Not the fraud perpetuated by socialist or communists or liberals, that you should expect governement, or others, to take care of ALL your needs.
HE expecected by taxes and government programs to take care of the poor and needy.
The spirits taught him that it is INDIVIDUAL charity that is more important.
True compassion, which only conservative posses, come from self,
IT not compassion when, like socialists want, when you FORCE others to pay for your compassion. vis-a-vis by taxes on your chosen "HATE" group or, in reality, taxes on everyone. especially everyone else.
Scrooge's heart was changes he became greatly concerned about what HE could do individually, and personally,
NOT what he could get governemnt to do,
NOT how he could force everyon else to do something by governmeny edict or tax.
THAT is Charity, the true love of Christ, that is real compassion and love for your neighbor.
Not the fraud perpetuated by socialist or communists or liberals, that you should expect governement, or others, to take care of ALL your needs.
Rance | 7:33 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Breck needs to do some research. Syracuse University professor Arthur Brooks
wrote a book on a study he did called Who Really Cares. Here are his findings:
"When you look at the data, it turns out the conservatives give about
thirty percent more per conservative-headed family than per liberal-headed
family. And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less
money."
Johnny Bravo | 9:11 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
*** "Why don't you check out Dick Cheney's charitable giving
compared to Al Gore or pre-campaign Obama." ***
Sure let's pick a specific, non-randomly selected individual instead of drawing from a random sample - like the email circulating a few years back that "proved" all Republicans were chickenhawks while all Democrats were highly decorated veterans. That email was nowhere to be found in 2008, though, was it?
By the way, when Al Gore released his tax returns several years back he had only given a few hundred dollars to charity. And, however much he has given away since leaing office, he has somehow managed to go from being a lifelong pol with no business experience to a guy worth $100 million - all of it earned without abusing his influence, I'm sure.
Sure let's pick a specific, non-randomly selected individual instead of drawing from a random sample - like the email circulating a few years back that "proved" all Republicans were chickenhawks while all Democrats were highly decorated veterans. That email was nowhere to be found in 2008, though, was it?
By the way, when Al Gore released his tax returns several years back he had only given a few hundred dollars to charity. And, however much he has given away since leaing office, he has somehow managed to go from being a lifelong pol with no business experience to a guy worth $100 million - all of it earned without abusing his influence, I'm sure.
Malthusian and Benthamite | 9:14 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Scrooge's ripostes to the collectors of charitable contributions show him
plainly to be both Malthusian and Benthamite in his views.
Both men's views were very much in vogue when "A Christmas Carol" was written and published.
Malthus held that it was pointless to help the poor; they just naturally died and decreased "surplus population". Malthus influenced British Socialist Robert Owen and, famously, Charles Darwin in his later theories of the "struggle for existence" and the "survival of the fittest".
The atheist Bentham's theories led to the passing of legislation that set up the work house system.
Bentham was a social reformer and leader of the philosophical radicals.
It is clear that Scrooge held to both Malthusian and Benthamite theory. There was no point in helping the poor; they just die, in the natural course of things. This would "decrease the surplus population".
Dickens was a Christian and humanitarian who clearly cared little for both cold-blooded theories.
One thing that could be said even for the unreformed Scrooge, though, was that, however grudgingly, he let Cratchitt have a paid day off on Christmas. This is better than some today who would have us work 24/7, and permit no exception.
Both men's views were very much in vogue when "A Christmas Carol" was written and published.
Malthus held that it was pointless to help the poor; they just naturally died and decreased "surplus population". Malthus influenced British Socialist Robert Owen and, famously, Charles Darwin in his later theories of the "struggle for existence" and the "survival of the fittest".
The atheist Bentham's theories led to the passing of legislation that set up the work house system.
Bentham was a social reformer and leader of the philosophical radicals.
It is clear that Scrooge held to both Malthusian and Benthamite theory. There was no point in helping the poor; they just die, in the natural course of things. This would "decrease the surplus population".
Dickens was a Christian and humanitarian who clearly cared little for both cold-blooded theories.
One thing that could be said even for the unreformed Scrooge, though, was that, however grudgingly, he let Cratchitt have a paid day off on Christmas. This is better than some today who would have us work 24/7, and permit no exception.
Johnny Bravo | 9:15 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
*** "Is the use of deductions the best source to compare giving?"
***
OK, let's not use deductions. Let's use personal statements. I gave $50 million to charity last year. Prove me wrong.
IRS forms are a great source of reliable information, because if you lie in one direction it's legally actionable and if you lie in the other direction you only short yourself.
OK, let's not use deductions. Let's use personal statements. I gave $50 million to charity last year. Prove me wrong.
IRS forms are a great source of reliable information, because if you lie in one direction it's legally actionable and if you lie in the other direction you only short yourself.
Dickens teaches Freud | 9:41 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Dickens appears to me as the original psycho-analyst, who went into
Scrooges's past to find the reasons for his miserliness.
Long before Freud he sees in Ebenezer's lonely childhood and lack of a loving home, the real reason for his own hard-heartedness, and obsession with hoarding wealth.
He did not benefit even himself by this way of living. He ate gruel and live a Spartan, frugal existence. Why else did Dickens examine Scrooge's childhood.
While Scrooge later warmed under the benign influence of a kind employer (Mr Fezziwig) and his sister Fanny, and his young romance, he ultimately inhabited an emotional desert of his own making, one that returned him to the situation of his youth.
Yet Dickens did not excuse Ebenezer, as some modern liberals might, by citing this 'deprived childhood'. He was still responsible for his own actions. While we are given some understanding of Scrooge's retarded emotional development it is ultimately no excuse for him, merely a somewhat 'extenuating circumstance'.
It all comes right in the end and, like many a reformed man, he finally excels all in his observation of Christmas.
Long before Freud he sees in Ebenezer's lonely childhood and lack of a loving home, the real reason for his own hard-heartedness, and obsession with hoarding wealth.
He did not benefit even himself by this way of living. He ate gruel and live a Spartan, frugal existence. Why else did Dickens examine Scrooge's childhood.
While Scrooge later warmed under the benign influence of a kind employer (Mr Fezziwig) and his sister Fanny, and his young romance, he ultimately inhabited an emotional desert of his own making, one that returned him to the situation of his youth.
Yet Dickens did not excuse Ebenezer, as some modern liberals might, by citing this 'deprived childhood'. He was still responsible for his own actions. While we are given some understanding of Scrooge's retarded emotional development it is ultimately no excuse for him, merely a somewhat 'extenuating circumstance'.
It all comes right in the end and, like many a reformed man, he finally excels all in his observation of Christmas.
Humbled by ES | 9:49 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Dickens� �ACHRISTMAS
CHAROL� is a tale (parable if you will) of Christian
repentance; in which, the focus is placed upon Ebenezer Scrooge (ES). He is the
�successful� man of the world. He is
not average by any means. He is wealthy and famous. He is the epitome of the
�man of business�.
He�s educated/book learned, serves his community -providing
goods and services-; pays taxes, & is aware of tax supported community
services.
He�s no hypocrite. His life is as austere, lacking in luxuries, comforts and diversions as he expects the lives of others to be; a direct contrast to Mr. Fezziwig�s office party, Bob Cratchit�s (BC) Christmas feast, his nephew�s party and the miner�s hut.
ES expected payment for goods & services just as he paid BC his labor. ES gave himself no more coal/heat than he gave BC. BC thought little of seeking paid time off for Christmas & as expected ES granted the request.
(to be continued)
He�s no hypocrite. His life is as austere, lacking in luxuries, comforts and diversions as he expects the lives of others to be; a direct contrast to Mr. Fezziwig�s office party, Bob Cratchit�s (BC) Christmas feast, his nephew�s party and the miner�s hut.
ES expected payment for goods & services just as he paid BC his labor. ES gave himself no more coal/heat than he gave BC. BC thought little of seeking paid time off for Christmas & as expected ES granted the request.
(to be continued)
Humbled by ES | 9:50 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
Continuation:
No the real point of the story: ES had reason to both love & hate the season. He lived his life as he expected others to live, be productive or leave. Yet, with appropriate reminders and information ES is ready for the Spirit of Future and personal change. ES makes that change.
It�s heartfelt. He didn�t stop making money or collecting on debts owed. If he had stopped making money the following could not have been true; ��I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year. I will live in the Past, the Present, and the Future. The Spirits of all Three shall strive within me. I will not shut out the lessons that they teach�.� Scrooge was better than his word. He did it all, and infinitely more.�it was always said of him, that he knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge.�
ES is neither conservative nor liberal. He became a true Christian.
No the real point of the story: ES had reason to both love & hate the season. He lived his life as he expected others to live, be productive or leave. Yet, with appropriate reminders and information ES is ready for the Spirit of Future and personal change. ES makes that change.
It�s heartfelt. He didn�t stop making money or collecting on debts owed. If he had stopped making money the following could not have been true; ��I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year. I will live in the Past, the Present, and the Future. The Spirits of all Three shall strive within me. I will not shut out the lessons that they teach�.� Scrooge was better than his word. He did it all, and infinitely more.�it was always said of him, that he knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge.�
ES is neither conservative nor liberal. He became a true Christian.
Anonymous | 10:19 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
"Looking at deductions is a perfectly valid source of data. In spite of
common misperception, incomes of both groups are roughly similar."
No. You can't use this data unless you first take data sets from the two groups and you verify bother groups are equality honest in reporting charitable deductions.
Antidotely, I know people in both groups. I have heard most tales about where flags are and how to creatively fill out your taxes from my conservative business friends.
When Jim canceled the order for his new jet he wrote the $20,000 deposit off as a loss against his corporation.
I know many in the hospitality industry. They never fill in the total on a restaurant or bar check. They would loose business. Leaving the amount open lets the customer write in the amount for his tax records.
Do you want me to tell you why carpet people don't fill in the address of were the carpet was installed when they work on rentals?
I've heard most creative ways to cut taxes from conservatives.
My liberal father was horrible about claiming everything. He felt guilty.
You have two different groups of people.
No. You can't use this data unless you first take data sets from the two groups and you verify bother groups are equality honest in reporting charitable deductions.
Antidotely, I know people in both groups. I have heard most tales about where flags are and how to creatively fill out your taxes from my conservative business friends.
When Jim canceled the order for his new jet he wrote the $20,000 deposit off as a loss against his corporation.
I know many in the hospitality industry. They never fill in the total on a restaurant or bar check. They would loose business. Leaving the amount open lets the customer write in the amount for his tax records.
Do you want me to tell you why carpet people don't fill in the address of were the carpet was installed when they work on rentals?
I've heard most creative ways to cut taxes from conservatives.
My liberal father was horrible about claiming everything. He felt guilty.
You have two different groups of people.
Humbled by ES | 10:35 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
To Anon | 12:28 a.m. Dec. 21, 2008
�I never read of Scrooge calling for coerced "charity" - which is the hallmark of a modern "liberal."
Ebenezer functioned, with no noted complaint in the tax system, thus, in England where the official church, Church of England (COE) may have been supported in part by taxes/compulsory tithe - where all the poor/work houses got their funds- at the time of the writing of this tale. This system is no longer enforce today & is one of the main reasons for the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of The United States of America.
Though I don�t know for a surety that compulsory tithe was in effect, I do know that taxes, which Ebenezer paid, were the source of funding for the prisons, including the debtors prisons, both referenced by Ebenezer in response to the �good men of charity� who came asking for a handout.
By the way, Dickens understood his tale and characters; that is one of the reasons his writings still have influence today.
Review his main character�s name, Ebenezer. It is a Hebrew word that translates to �help stone�. How apt to the nature of this particular character.
�I never read of Scrooge calling for coerced "charity" - which is the hallmark of a modern "liberal."
Ebenezer functioned, with no noted complaint in the tax system, thus, in England where the official church, Church of England (COE) may have been supported in part by taxes/compulsory tithe - where all the poor/work houses got their funds- at the time of the writing of this tale. This system is no longer enforce today & is one of the main reasons for the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of The United States of America.
Though I don�t know for a surety that compulsory tithe was in effect, I do know that taxes, which Ebenezer paid, were the source of funding for the prisons, including the debtors prisons, both referenced by Ebenezer in response to the �good men of charity� who came asking for a handout.
By the way, Dickens understood his tale and characters; that is one of the reasons his writings still have influence today.
Review his main character�s name, Ebenezer. It is a Hebrew word that translates to �help stone�. How apt to the nature of this particular character.
KM | 11:52 p.m. Dec. 21, 2008
@anon 10:52
Liberals always in a state of denial. You are just trying to somehow justify the miserly liberals like: Obama and Biden, who for past history have given almost nothing to charity, yet in typical liberal fashion want to take from one group to give to another for a vote! Discusting!
Liberals always in a state of denial. You are just trying to somehow justify the miserly liberals like: Obama and Biden, who for past history have given almost nothing to charity, yet in typical liberal fashion want to take from one group to give to another for a vote! Discusting!
Anonymous | 1:20 a.m. Dec. 22, 2008
KM | 11:52 I'm a liberal. Thank god! I should be a whiner. I'm single
and they take my taxes to educate kids, pay for juvenile detention, child
protective services and free meals for kids. I feel this is my duty, like it was
my duty to serve in the military.
Being taxed puts food in schools. It pays for Wic to feed children. I know my taxes pay for children regardless of race, religion or there location.
Thank you,lord for giving me the health to work and to pay taxes. I'm bless lord. For after paying my fair share, I still have money to enjoy your blessings.
Being taxed puts food in schools. It pays for Wic to feed children. I know my taxes pay for children regardless of race, religion or there location.
Thank you,lord for giving me the health to work and to pay taxes. I'm bless lord. For after paying my fair share, I still have money to enjoy your blessings.
Scrooge and the econmy | 6:04 a.m. Dec. 22, 2008
Scrooge asked why didn't we let the poor just "die and decrease the
surplus population?" That was what Malthus taught: there was only so much
food; the poor could not be helped; there was not enough for everyone. They
should utilize some form of birth control. Conservative?
It should be noted that Malthus later much influenced Darwin with his cold-blooded doctrine of the Survival of the Fittest in the Struggle for Existence.
Scrooge's belief in workhouses was Benthamite. Jeremy Bentham was an atheist and social reformer who, like Malthus, was very influential in Dickens' day. The workhouse system was instituted in 1834 by Bentham's disciples.
One thing, though (Tiny Tim aside) Bob Cratchit was able (barely, admittedly) to support a wife and (fve?) children on his miserable pittance. Could a lowly clerk do that now? Just asking.
Then again he did get a paid day off for Christmas. Some modern firms will be opening on Christams Day I believe, and never allow any respite. Operating 24/7, and honoring no holy day, there is no time that their employees can be assured of seeing their whole family at one time.
Many unrepentant Scrooges are alive and well today!
It should be noted that Malthus later much influenced Darwin with his cold-blooded doctrine of the Survival of the Fittest in the Struggle for Existence.
Scrooge's belief in workhouses was Benthamite. Jeremy Bentham was an atheist and social reformer who, like Malthus, was very influential in Dickens' day. The workhouse system was instituted in 1834 by Bentham's disciples.
One thing, though (Tiny Tim aside) Bob Cratchit was able (barely, admittedly) to support a wife and (fve?) children on his miserable pittance. Could a lowly clerk do that now? Just asking.
Then again he did get a paid day off for Christmas. Some modern firms will be opening on Christams Day I believe, and never allow any respite. Operating 24/7, and honoring no holy day, there is no time that their employees can be assured of seeing their whole family at one time.
Many unrepentant Scrooges are alive and well today!
wibst | 7:29 a.m. Dec. 22, 2008
Yeah, Scrooge and the econmy; he not only supported them, but his wife did not
bring in a farthing of income; so, ES supported BC and family on top of whatever
good, questionable, was done for others with his portion of the rates.
I guess that Tiny Tim (TT) will become the poster child for government mandated health insurance. But I wonder, if the government mandates health care to help �those less fortunate�, like the average man BC and family, would TT receive the needed care or would it be deemed inappropriate for a child of his age, or be priced too low for any medical team to be able to afford to perform for TT?
Just wondering.
I guess that Tiny Tim (TT) will become the poster child for government mandated health insurance. But I wonder, if the government mandates health care to help �those less fortunate�, like the average man BC and family, would TT receive the needed care or would it be deemed inappropriate for a child of his age, or be priced too low for any medical team to be able to afford to perform for TT?
Just wondering.
Humbled by ES | 8:33 a.m. Dec. 22, 2008
Good points Malthusia and Benthamite & Scrooge and the econmy. Sounds just
like the type of people/philosophies the Progressives have modified for their
uses. The public schools have been teaching a modified version of these men for
a generation or more.
This modification is more Darwinian than Malthius or Benthamite. It is one of �benevolent� superiority over the pragmatic live or die philosophies of these good men of �science over spirit�.
Public schools and Progressives disseminate/program us with the pre-eminence vs. inferiority doctrine of �we�, whoever �we� are, must help those who are not �us�.
It obliges us to �give� to those who �have not� sans consideration regarding why one �has� and another �has not�. The �giver� determines �need� based upon their own lack of �need�; thus, the giver is always in a position of being more able than those to whom they give.
This modification is more Darwinian than Malthius or Benthamite. It is one of �benevolent� superiority over the pragmatic live or die philosophies of these good men of �science over spirit�.
Public schools and Progressives disseminate/program us with the pre-eminence vs. inferiority doctrine of �we�, whoever �we� are, must help those who are not �us�.
It obliges us to �give� to those who �have not� sans consideration regarding why one �has� and another �has not�. The �giver� determines �need� based upon their own lack of �need�; thus, the giver is always in a position of being more able than those to whom they give.
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