Deseret News | 3 charter teachers won't return

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3 charter teachers won't return

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There are good charter schools | 12:14 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

There are good charter schools with great teachers, solid curriculum, wonderful facilities, and leaders who care about their learners.

It's a shame Mountainville came up short.

Anonymous | 12:35 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

The building will make a great City Hall, library, senior center. post office, etc. for Alpine City.

to anonymous @ 12:35pm | 12:47 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

getting rid of a school just to make a City Hall or other building is ridiculous.

I too am sorry to hear that Mountainville lost it's appeal. That's something a public school would do, not a charter school. Very sad.

Comments continue below

Curious | 1:27 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

What world does Jeff Dyer live in where a business does not fire people to stay financially alive??!!

Good on | 2:00 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

the parents who tried to save the jobs of the teachers. That said though, this is why I am not a fan of charter schools, they get taxpayer money with very little oversight. How do we even know where all the money went?

Audits | 2:28 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

Charter schools have to have audits every year. If you want to know where the money went - send them a GRAMA request.

The unfortunate fact for all too many charter schools is that state law allows them to exist but there's no good funding mechanism for them to tie into public funds for their building. Many of them end up over extending by paying too much in interest to get a nice brick and mortar building - a mistake the district schools also make but districts have the benefit of bonding and passing the expense on and they get reasonable rates.

Somehow, the building is more important than the education that goes on in it.

Dumbfounded | 2:54 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

Sounds like the only people who have all the rights, privileges, and immunity are only those on the charter school board. Parents evidently have no rights to open discussion, teachers have no due process, and the director has no job security.

So..let me see if I get this right..the board is NOT elected, can't be fired by the parents/shareholders, makes autonomous decisions with no accountability, appoints itself....wow..is this America???

smarterfithgrader | 4:00 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

All the parents concerned need to pull their kids out and put them in a public classroom. They do have a say. Loss of students further loss of income. This may be the only way the the board will realize how dumb they handled a difficult situation. People most directltly affected should always be included in the discussion. They may not like what happens but they are a part of the process.

to anonymous @ 12:35 | 4:18 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

This isn't the only charter school that has "lost its appeal." US public schools are much more the choice of suburban communities than charter schools ever will be. By the way, your grammar is incorrect. It is "its" not "it's" when using the possessive form. No wonder you like charters...

Sense | 4:46 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

If they were able to raise that much money, why don't they just divorce themselves from an obviously broken system, and hire the teachers privately? Somebody, somewhere doing something like this could actually start some sense of competition and give the broken state-monopolized school systems a run for their money.

Government Schools Don't Work | 5:54 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

First, we no district schools all over are failing our kids..see I learned to spell in private school..ahah..

The charter..so-called, hybrid is yet another government program....a failure for many..

Now it is time to take the government out of education, once and for all. Give us the voucher and let the free market work. Private is better all around.

is there an eye dr. in the house | 7:12 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

Let me get this straight...this shool board is taking advice from an "adviser" on what do to. Isn't he an eye doctor? Why are they getting advice from him about schools, education, hiring, firing, anything like that? I've heard that Brian Allen, the President of the Utah State Charter School Board told them that they should do whatever they could to reinstate these teachers. Parents found a solution...they even had all the money (I know a parent told the board she would contribute whatever the missing amount was--so in theory they had their $110,000). So they had the money, they were presented with several solutions to the problem, they were given advice from the State Charter Board to do what they could to reinstate the teachers....but instead they followed the advice of an eye doctor and kept the authority of the principal intact and have the school board "save face". You know once upon a time people in this country stood up for what was right and fought against authority that was inhumane and tyrannic. It was called the American Revolution. Hmmm...is this a school or a circus???

good laugh | 7:14 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

For the past week this school has been the laughing stock at my office. Thanks for giving us something to crack up about at Christmas time...it sure has made the work place more fun!

Contributor | 10:25 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

My family contributed toward the fundraiser. Parents worked fervently and in just two days raised 40,000 dollars. This board is so out of control. It was apparent by the look on their faces that they had made their decision last week and had no intention of changing their minds. They were arrogant and almost giddy at the board meeting. And to add insult to injury they had their two "parent advisors" there to give them advice on what their decision should be. One a former board member's husband and the other I guess is an eye doctor by the above comment. They spoke of insubordination that could occur if the teachers came back. What a character assasination of those great teachers. How very shameful. We would not of fought for them if there was any truth to that. The other pretended he spoke for the parents and we were all fine with it. If that were so we would not have raised $40,000 in less than two days. Shame on MVA. I will be pulling out my children. I have no trust or respect for these people. Why do they not post their bios on their websight? Anything to hide?

re:Contributor | 10:46 p.m. Dec. 19, 2008

I also pledged for the fundraiser, however since they chose to ignore the parents I will never give them one dime of my money. I too will be pulling all of my kids. I warn anyone that wants to enroll their kids to think first and run the other way. FAST!!!

change schools | 4:38 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Put your children and your money in a different school!

too far gone??? | 6:59 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

wow...so the reasoning is that they feel they are too far down one path to turn back now and change their minds...interesting logic--"we're too far down one path to stop and do what is right." Do they know that "to turn around" and "repent" are derived from the same root word? It's never too late to turn around and choose a better way.

Extremely Disappointed | 8:10 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I have children at MVA and I have been very supportive of this school from the beginning. I am extremely disappointed in the board and administration. I am pulling my children out. I do not understand how they can justify their actions. I do not accept their reasons.

I was at the board meeting and I believe the decision not to reinstate the teachers was all about power and as mentioned above "saving face." This is a disgrace.

Think long and hard before putting your child into MVA.

Too Late | 8:16 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Please do NOT pull your child out of MVA and put them into the regular public school.

It is far too late in the school year for ANY funding to follow your child. The funding for this year will stay with MVA and the regular public school will be required to educate your child for half a year for free. This will negatively impact children who are already going to those regular public schools.

You made your choice to go with MVA. Please honor that choice until the end of the school year.

The Other Side | 9:04 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

This is the other side of charter schools that the public doesn't see very often. The board has all the power; parents have little sway.

Mike Farley | 9:11 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Re: Too Late (8:16 a.m.) You are partly right, the charter school's finances will not be adversely affected by students withdrawing at this time (after the October count). However, I am quite certain that the school districts funding is based on average daily membership during the course of the year (i.e., it is adjusted based on enrollment). The state should change the formula for charters to at least have a second count day in the spring and then adjust payments based on the average--this would give charter school boards greater financial incentive to more carefully and thoughtfully consider their actions.

Mike Farley | 9:18 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I attended the meeting Thursday night and it was clear that this was a charade. Even if the parents had $110K in hand, the board was not going to reconsider. Furthermore, there was no substantive deliberation by the board. Rather, as others have noted, they merely said that it would be a mistake to change their decision (which was made in private without any input from parents, teachers, or students). I have spoken with the Board president and their business consultant (Lincoln Fillmore of Charter Solutions)and both maintain that the board has been in full compliance with the Open Meetings Law. I trust that as the state investigates this matter they will find otherwise. In my view, this is almost a textbook case of systematic non compliance.

Mike Farley | 9:25 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I am a strong advocate for charter schools and have seen what a positive difference they can make in the lives of children. Despite these issues with governance at Mountainville, I am quite certain that the students have been well served. However, the failure of the self-appointed and self-perpetuating Mountainville board to fulfill their fiduciary responsibilities (some would consider their past performance grossly negligent), along with their propensity to conduct their business in private (contrary to the Open Meetings Law), begs for state intervention of sufficient magnitude to provide deter other charter school boards from acting in like manner. Unfortunately, these patterns of behavior are not unique to Mountainville.

Mike Farley | 9:35 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Re: Curious (1:27 p.m.)
What Jeff Dyer was saying is that Toyota wouldn't scrap its most popular product to address financial issues--that is, they would listen carefully to their customers preferences before making dramatic changes to their product line. Make sense?

6th grade parent | 10:00 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

It was apparent at the Monday night board meeting and also the Thursday night board meeting the board really has not thought the change through past the firing of the teachers. They never really addressed how they would absorb 78 sixth graders at once. Only one of the middle school teachers came. (I heard she tried to get others there but failed) She only spoke of letting this go forward for "teacher moral purposes." (SOMETHING SHE WOULD PROFIT FINANCIALLY FROM) She never addressed us parents who worry about the emotional state of our children in this. The director has made it a crime for the children to even speak of it at school at all and they get in trouble if they do. My child is finished being a science experiment. I would love to wait until the end of the year, however, every day more damage is done.

Parent Elected Board Members | 10:09 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

By State Board Rule, all charter schools must have 25% of the board elected by parents. Those of you moaning and groaning that no parents were elected are being arm chair Quarter backs. Not enough people stepped forward to run for your board so the person who did was appointed.

You didn't step up when the time was right but now you all want to second guess decisions. I'm not sure I agree with the way things were handled but something did need to be done. Clearly your finances are not in order.

MVA Parent | 10:35 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

As a MVA parent, I would like to state I completely agree with the previous statements by Mr. Mike Farley. Thank you Mr. Farley. Your comments are valued and very well said!

Steven Jarvis | 10:37 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

For those who recall the difficulties at Liberty Academy and have been asking, Lincoln Fillmore and Charter School Solutions were also involved there.

I agree with Mike Farley, governance must be addressed at charter schools. Because charters function essentially as one-school districts errors are not easily fixed like they have been in Districts. In a district these three teachers would have been moved to a different school (or the middle school ones).

to anon at 4:18 | 11:16 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

They probably learned the use of "it's" and not "its" at a regular public school, so maybe a charter school will help their children learn the proper use of "it's" and "its".

Private Schools??? | 11:45 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I know it's a wonderful thing for many to bash on public schools but history has shown that only government sponsored public schools made education truly accessible to minorities, women, the poor and those with special needs. Thousand, no millions, no wait...hundreds of millions of Americans have passed through our public schools and guess what, they became doctor, lawyers, business leaders. politicians, police officers, teachers, military personnel, etc. Many, as I was, were well served in the public education system.

I am not out to bash private education because for many it has its place. But it is exclusionary by nature and many schools lack quality because there is no oversight. We put our daughter in a private school for kindergarten and it was a great experience for her. We wanted to start our son there but since he is special needs they couldn't serve him and they basically told us that he had to go elsewhere. At least in these public schools many in the public want to ridicule on a regular basis, the government requires the schools to make some effort to educate my son and he now loves school. So I actually see a place for both.

Parents have options | 11:51 a.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Cleary the MVA board is akin to the communist apparatus, dictatorship, etc. Too many charter boards behave this way..they have phone discussions about board matters, individual board members run around the school implementing their own agendas..the list goes on..with no consideration of what is best for the school community.

Parents, don't run..protest, get a petition of no confidence..demand the board's resignation..boycott, file a lawsuit..do not let this board win. If you leave the school, they will win. Too many of these boards are allowed to remain..ultimately to the downfall of the kids and parents, or too many parents leave.. Why should you leave..NO..the handful of jerks on the board need to LEAVE.

This is about democracy triumphing over a dictatorship.

I've witnessed this before at other charter schools, as a parent, teacher and director. It sickens me that these boards think they own the school. Plus, they have a little knowledge about education..and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Stand up..fight...and prevail. Help those who cannot help themselves..this is the American way.

Your child is not a science proj | 12:00 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Children fare pretty well through changes, it tends to be the parents that make everything drag on and over dramatized. A child by the end of the year won't be so damaged, a person needs to learn these techniques to survive. The situation is not a great one but now is the time to make the change positive and to make it work. The way the voting and parent involvement works at the school should be first priority at the school.

re:Parent Elected Board Members | 12:07 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

The MVA only has 3 elected parent positions, 3 of 7 board members. They are elected for a 2 year term. The problem is that if they resign or are removed from the board before their term ends the position is filled by appointment. The appointment is made by the remaining board members. At least 2 board members were replaced last spring, one was a parent and the other an appointed member. They were replaced by the husband of one member and a newcomer to the school, who is an accountant, or so it is rumored.

The only way to remove a board member is to have the rest of the board vote them out or they resign.

JMT | 12:16 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Let's review this.

The Board of Directors may not have followed their own By-laws.

The Board of Directors may not have followed the Open Meetings law.

The Board of Directors held an election and parents didn't submit names for the 25%.

Thus, all charter schools are bad.

Very poor logic.

There are almost 4,000 charter schools nationwide and many are doing incredibly well.

-Of the top public high schools in America charter high schools make up 18% of them, though they only represent 3.5% of all public high schools.

-In Tennessee the top performing title I school in the entire state (almost 1,000 schools) the past 2 years are two different charter schools.

-Another charter school in Memphis produced 100% graduation rate from inner city, At-risk students, with 100% enrolled in colleges the following Fall with over $3 million of scholarship money awarded between the 69 students.

Examples galore.

Fact is charter schools are doing incredibly well. Not perfect but incredibly well. Just because one charter school has lost sight of their governing documents (by-laws and State law) does not mean all charter schools are failures.

Mountainville will get this cleaned up. Good things will happen. Don't overreact.

is it true? | 12:48 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Is it true other board past or present have pulled their children out of this "great" middle school?

Dance with the Devil | 1:12 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Charter schools are about a few well-connected profiteers planning to gain personally - not students. Parents have been willing to dance with the devil at their own peril.

Look at the current boards of Charter schools and you see the power base is made up of friends and family (and politicians).

That is why they do not want oversight of any kind.

Re: Your child... | 1:30 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

It is my opinion as well as many others that these children have every right to have an opinion. Most of them are twelve years old. I have heard their parents called "whiners" or they have a "mob mentality." Most of these comments have been made by parents whose children were not even affected by this situation. To tell me my child should just buck up and have no opinion is completely wrong. Not only was his teacher fired, she was then immediately and since treated like a common criminal. Good for these kids and their parents. They stood up and tried to right and horrible wrong. I want my child to learn that he should stand up for his principles and make his voice heard, repectfully. Very few of these parents have even raised their voices. The problem is that the board did not want to hear their voices at all.

John | 1:30 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Maybe if the parents hadn't turned the school into a media circus/event the board would have been more accommodating, but you can't let a small subset of parents dictate what's good for the entire school.

I agree with the earlier comment, these parents could have run for at 4 board seats in the last 9 months, no one did so I don't feel too sorry for them, but it's too bad it had to happen mid-year.

Re: Courious | 1:33 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

To answer your question, Jeff Dyer is a finance professor at BYU and has worked with Mitt Romney's financial groups. Maybe with that kind of experience he understands there is a cost for doing stupid things to change a short term finanical problem. He understands fixing short term problems this way could, in the end, destroy the very thing you are trying to save.

Fred | 1:51 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I guess I am lost, charter schools were created for and by the great capitalists who want to turn education into a competitive business. The school is not financially viable, so they made cuts, isn't that how capitalism is suppose to work? This was actually an excellent financial move, because many parents will now pull their students from this school, and they can continue to reduce more staff. The state will continue to provide the money based on the student count of October 1st, so revenue will continue to poor in. All those excess students can now go back to the public schools to be educated without those public schools recieving money for that student. Actually seems like an excellent business model to me.

Maybe MVA would be an example of why public education should not be run as a business. We should always be careful what we ask for, sometimes we get it.

Re: John | 2:44 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Again with the focus on anything but the problem. A board that has no one to answer to but themselves. If people want to help this school they would ask the state to step in and insist the board be changed. If not, we continue to have an unexperienced board members making decisions about things they do not understand. A board needs to have the ability to see more than the short picture. They need to understand that rash decisions have long term repercussions. That seems to be where they are lacking.

re:John | 3:00 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I'm thinking this is the John that use to be on the board and is now a board advisor. Your statement about no parents running for the board is completely false. If you look at the board minutes you will see that Mr. Glather (former director) did indeed submit his application. Hhmmmm, I wonder why he wasn't even acknowledged? Was it because they forced him out when he was director because he actually had a voice and didn't agree with everything they did? BINGO, I THINK WE HAVE A WINNER!

Re: fred | 3:07 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Amen. Running a school is different than running a business. Any TRAINED public school administrator can attest to that.

Thomas Jefferson | 4:18 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

These boards are nothing less than commies..while they revel around "The Constitution" they fail to reflect any assemblance of the bill of rights. This is why employees have no due process, so the board has complete power. Then, combine this with the fact that parents cannot fire the board, you now have an absolute monarchy. This is the name of this game..absolute power corrupts absolutely. Then, they treat the terminated staff like criminals so the parents think ill of them..this is all part of the charade..must be from the charter playbook.

One thing is certain, these boards will kill the school before they reform themselves. This is why the MVA parents need to take it back because the school doesn't belong to the board, it belongs to the parents and the children it serves.

Perhaps charter boards should have to provide parents with shares of ownership...so the parents can vote them in, or out through voting.

One thing is clear, the MVA Board needs to go..lock, stock, and barrell.

Pro market | 4:24 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Fred..the problem is that charter schools are not run like a business. If it were run like a business, they would loose funding tomorrow when the parents leave. The board would be responsible to the stakeholders...

The best example of government run enterprises of late is the current real estate crash, when democratic representatives pushed for "equitable" housing..aka..we pay for those who cannot afford it. That is a government run enterprise..and in charters...any state that sets up a charter school board that cannot be fired by the parents, is not creating a market dynamic, or business enterprise.

So, the charter school is not run like a business, but rather like the worst form of government..that is a dictatorship..the folks in Utah have been deceived into thinking that charters are like a business, they are not.

Hmmmm, | 4:39 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I'll bet the charter school managment company still made its rediculous profit and rent. Who manages MVA? It stinks of mismanagement as do all charter shools with their management companines.

Bail them out.... | 4:44 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

I hear Bush is bailing out every private company in the USA. Ask for a bail out so that the management company will be able to afford teachers without having to dip into their obscene profits. Guess this is a perfect example of how the property owners in Utah are getting fleeced by having insolvent charter schools, no wonder dubya supported them.

Question? | 5:11 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Isn't the charter school management company called Charter Solutions? Seems to me that Charter Solutions is a spin off from the failed Excel Education Group which became High Marks Education Group after it failed and then failed again, of which Lincoln Fillmore was an important part and member of. Or should I say, a different name or reorganization? But the same company staffed by the staff of another failed company. I would be interesting if the real truth came out.

The Utah State Charter Board should really look into this and conduct a serious audit of this failing charter school as well as the other charters this company manages. Or are they to afraid of getting pie in their faces as the school board of MVA was?

Parents can run amuck too | 5:37 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

Those of you proposing that parents should control all board positions should know, many a good charter school was destroyed that way. Parental Anarchy isn't a better solution than a monopolistic board. Somewhere in the middle is a good solution that serves the educational need of the kids.

What I want to know | 5:39 p.m. Dec. 20, 2008

is why the teachers were fired in the first place.

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