Comments about ‘Group countering Prop. 8 backers' ad’

Homosexuals do recruit. One third of child molestations are done by same sex predators. Homosexuals child molest at a rate many times what heterosexuals do.

re: To CSTN

Conjecture? There are countless constitutional based websites that explain the benefits of marriage to society and why the government supports them. Do you have a better reason for why the government would choose to support marriage by granting married individuals special privileges?

One homosexual group that did recruit was NAMBLA. The North American Man Boy Love Association. Many of their members are in jail for child molestation thanks to an FBI sting operation. Gay pride organizers allowed this group into their events. They would not condemn them.

Young children can be heavily influenced by teaching. It worked in Nazi Germany and the communist Soviet Union. If homosexuality is taught in school it would have an effect on children. If it is taught as equally good you are going to have confused kids who try out the lifestyle. I guess some of you want to tell kids that smoking and taking illegal drugs are good for them also.

Aversion therapy has been successful in staightening out homosexuals, but like anything you have to want to do it. Sex is learned behavior. I know several people who say they made the choice to be a lesbian or homosexual.

Many homosexuals choose the lifestyle because they were molested by other older homosexuals when they were children. This made many think they were gay. Many homosexuals had a strong mother and a weak father and related more to the female role model. Some men were hypersexual and pursued the lifestyle. San Francisco bathhouses were famous for this. Many factors influence homosexuals, but it is still a choice.

At the first LA Temple protest by anti 8 haters KNX 1070 AM reported and interviewed 2 women who were beaten at the scene by pro same sex marriage supporters. Vandalism was done. The anti 8 haters also would not allow LDS members into or out of the front gate. They tried to intimidate other yes on 8 supporters who were there. In my city thousands of yes on 8 signs were stolen out of people's yards. As usual gay agenda types hate free speech and will do anything to squelch opposing speech.

"Marriage has everything to do with sexual orientation. It is part of human biology [...] Show me one society anywhere that has ever had homosexual marriage--bet you there aren't any."

Biologically and historically speaking, Mormon ideas about sex--lifelong monogamy, procreational sex, and the nuclear family--are bizarre and totally unnatural.

Mormons are probably so focused on procreative sex because they are a religious minority that wants to grow. Great human civilizations just don't work that way.

Life long monogamy has been the historical norm. Homosexuality is totally abnormal and unnatural.

To not really lds for gay marriage:
President Monson asked us to work for the passage of prop 8. The living prophet takes precedence over the scriptures. Read this year's priesthood manual around page 199 where it quotes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young saying that the scriptures are nothing compared to the words of the living prophet. We had the lesson months ago. I knew you didn't go to our church. Also you have never said that homosexual behavior is wrong which is pretty basic stuff in Mormon religion. If you had a testimony you wouldn't be ripping our church or the prophet. You think you know more than the Lord. You don't!

"read your biology and history": Follow your own advice, dude.

I'll admit I overstated my case with my "bet there aren't any" comment. It's true that lifelong monogamy, procreational sex, and the nuclear family are not necessarily universal virtues among all humanity, and not always necessary for a healthy society.

However, lifelong monogamy HAS been the norm in Western society for at least a couple thousand years. You can't say procreational sex and large families are only Mormon ideals (Catholicism, anyone?).

As a species, we may not be wired for lifelong monogamy (some take to it better than others, though; it's a continuum of behavior, not an absolute destiny). But we are biologically wired to gravitate toward something at least approximating a nuclear family; people naturally love their own children. Again, there's a continuum of behavior; child-rearing isn't only done by individuals, it can also be done by society collectively.

But don't paint me with the wrong brush. Not everyone in this conversation is either a Mormon or a supporter of gay marriage. Some of us are neither. I may temporarily agree with them on parts of this issue, but I'm not a practicing Mormon (or a practicing anything).

To Bobd | 12:20 p.m. Dec. 11, 2008 said -
...Gays and Lesbians have every "right" that I do, and I do not have any more "rights" than they do. Just because I choose to keep the definition of "marriage" being between a man and woman, does not constitute the violation of someones "rights".

LDS - The US Supreme Court disagrees -
"These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."

Gays want the same rights we have...to marry the person they love.

And again, I assert that marriage is a function both of biology and society, and as such there is NO reason why we should be obligated to treat it as a "right" that is being unfairly denied to homosexuals.

A lot of people like to pretend that biology doesn't matter when it comes to men and women, and that society shouldn't be allowed to deny anyone anything. WRONG. I'm not bringing this up to justify chauvinism and racism; we already know that stuff was wrong. I also realize that science and biology have been used to justify some reprehensible things (people once claimed blacks were biologically inferior to whites, and a few select morons still believe it).

But the fact is, biological differences DO exist, and sometimes they're highly significant, and it's both justifiable and (probably) wise to account for them in a case like this.

"However, lifelong monogamy HAS been the norm in Western society for at least a couple thousand years."

Are you kidding? Estimates of average lifetime sex partners varies between about 5 and 20 for heterosexuals in the Western world, and those estimates are almost certainly low and rising. Marital infidelity is high, probably the norm in many nations.

And many people seem to stop changing sex partners not because of a sudden outbreak of monogamous commitment, but for practical reasons.

The only reason people had fewer partners in the past is because they didn't live as long.

Incidentally, divorce rates among conservative Christians are higher than among atheists. So much for the "benefits" of conservative "values".

"But the fact is, biological differences DO exist, and sometimes they're highly significant, and it's both justifiable and (probably) wise to account for them in a case like this."

Of course biology matters. So what? What does that have to do with gay marriage?

Why do you want to prevent two men from making a loving commitment to care for each other and to be monogamous with each other? Gay marriage can only translate into less promiscuity and less sex.

By opposing gay marriage, Mormons are promoting more sex and more promiscuity. Is that what you want?

If I ever say anything which is contrary to the scriptures, then the scriptures prevail. - Mark E. Petersen

If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth. - Harold B. Lee

That this Church, while offering advice for the welfare of its members in all conditions of life, does not claim or exercise a right to interfere with citizens in the free exercise of social or political rights and privileges. - Wilford Woodruff

D&C 134:4 - We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of aworship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish bguilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

D&C 134:7 - We believe that rulers, states, and governments have a right, and are bound to enact laws for the protection of all acitizens in the free exercise of their religious bbelief; but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions, so long as a regard and reverence are shown to the laws and such religious opinions do not justify sedition nor conspiracy.

D&C 134:9 - We do not believe it just to amingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. - Joseph Smith

Religious freedom does not imply nor provide license to infringe or impose upon the rights and liberties of others. - L.G. Ottem

"Wherever one dominant church has controlled a government, or a government (as in communistic nations) has dictated or proscribed systems of worship, men have been denied that agency without which they cannot work out their salvation. - Bruce R. McConkie

To the 12:58 commentator,
Same-gender marriage will lock people in a sinful relationship. The less locked into a same-sex relationship the easier to stop the bahvior it is for people. What we want is people to stop homosexual behavior, and so we want a system that makes that most likely.

"but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions"

As a member of the church who had the church ask me to do all I could for prop 8 and didn't tell me they understood members might vote otherwise until the day after the election, I feel fairly "proscribed".