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New York Times ad blasts ire aimed at LDS

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  • re:Vince
    Dec. 20, 2008 12:45 p.m.

    You're asking the LDS to stay away from politics? But everyone else can participate? Can you see how wrong that is?

  • Philip
    Dec. 13, 2008 6:58 p.m.

    God Bless the Beckett Fund for proferring such sound reason and good works in their NY Times ad. What a stark constrast to the lawless opposing side. Both sides have demonstrated their value by their actions.

  • To Mr Falk
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:21 p.m.

    Nice job on the story. I thought it was very well done. To Jens, look at the hornets nest you stirred up. Now no one can seem to get along. Try harder to keep the peace in the future.

  • realitycheck
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:51 p.m.

    re - "to realitycheck" 4:47pm 12/10

    "that's the devil's doctrine"...

    what? wow - have they got you brainwashed, or what? I lead a good life. I am kind and compassionate. If there is a heaven, I will get there. My assumption is you will too. How does that have ANYTHING to do with the devil?

    Now I know you will go into some jumbled discussion of having to believe or you can't get in, but if you think so then you believe God is cruel and vain. Parhaps yours is? Mine certainly isn't. Lead a good life and you are welcome in his kingdom. Perform significant sins and you're out of luck. (sorry - confession won't help you with the big sins.)

    And if you aren't forced to pay tithing, why was the guy with the calendar kicked out for not paying?
    Perhaps they just used that as an excuse? So either you have to pay or your church isn't honest with everyone. Either way doesn't look very good to an outsider...

  • To Vince
    Dec. 10, 2008 11:19 p.m.

    Are you for real?

    You sound like a girl---

  • To Mary | 10:31 a.m.
    Dec. 10, 2008 11:06 p.m.

    Are you for real?

    You sound like a guy ---

  • Vince
    Dec. 10, 2008 11:03 p.m.


    To:
    John Pack Lambert | 10:25 p.m. Dec. 9, 2008

    While I believe you're right, on both counts, that the Church will not accept homosexuality, same-sex marriage, etc. etc. ---

    what we're asking is not for the Church to reverse its teachings --- please, no.

    We are asking --- LDS --- stay away from politics.

  • Vinie
    Dec. 10, 2008 7:18 p.m.

    J P Lambert, I don't believe that you're a true LDS person, because you say too many things that I don't believe or agree with. You need to stop this silly suck up job to the church. It's very unbecoming.

    Lets stick to the topic of prop-8--- if that is ok with you?

  • Frank
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:10 p.m.

    To Katelynn M. Beckwith,
    Who died and made you the Gestapo?

  • Re:RE: To Harley | 3:28 p.m.
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    Ok, my mistake. It sounded like you were gay.


    "I am one that believes in individual right of choice which is a God given right. God gave us the ability to make decisions."

    I'll give you that. We have the right to make any choice we want, but it doesn't mean it is a right choice or a choice that should be allowed. Take stealing for example. I can steal from whomever I want, but it doesn't make it right.

    You're gonna need a different argument than that to convince me, so what else do ya got.

  • to realitycheck
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    "We'll end up in the same place in the end"

    That's a devil's doctrine.


    "I just get to have more fun that you"

    Seriously doubt that. I'm pretty darn happy being married and living my life in the church. (plus my fun lasts longer)


    "and get to give my money to people in need instead of being forced to give it to a church under threat of disenfranchisement."

    Nope I've done nothing good with my money. I've just spent it on a church where the clergy doesn't have a wage. I've only helped fund shelters, warehouses for assistance and a university that allows others to provide greater assistance as well.

    Sure the church has a big bank account, and that means that they can provide help for years to come instead of being nearly bankrupt. (I'm not forced to pay it either, my life is just easier when I do for some reason, so I do)

  • Your Own Church
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:45 p.m.

    Hey John Pack Lambert how about you start your own church. This way you could actually be the expert that you think you are. JPL...almost rolls off the tongue as well as LDS.

  • I apologize
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:40 p.m.

    re: re "to realitycheck" 3:30pm

    I apologize. I didn't see how bad that sounded written until you responded.

    You are right. It would only be my interpretation. I was only trying to insinuate that I could at least back up my claims with some logical thought instead of making comments without even being able to support the argument.


    The difference is that we bring not only our opinion, but a test. I have never forced someone to join the church (if I was the conversion factor, that is a bad thing). I have given them a test to find out for themselves. If they don't agree, fine. Everyone has their own opinion.


    "(The truly ironic part is you call that "missionary work" when in practically any other religion (or even non-religions) "missionary work" involves going to places with significant hunger and strife and helping those people."


    You give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. You teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Make sense? Besides, I did go somewhere with significant hunger and strife and I did help those people.

  • RE: re: Jason M | 3:24pm
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    There is zero precidence, only conjecture available for those arguing against homosexual marriage under the guise of defense of the church in legal standing. If that were the true purpose of Proposition 8, then it wouldn't have been a proposition stating marriage was between a man and a woman, it would have been a proposition guaranteeing the right of a church to practice whatever discrimination they felt necessary without fear of litigation...but they didn't push that kind of a proposition, because that wasn't the goal. The goal of proposition 8 was a Christianist movement's desire to force their morality on others through mob-rule (sound familiar?).

  • an ad blasting ire huh
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:25 p.m.

    maybe those supporting this ad should take a bit of their own advice:

    Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in
    general and Catholicism in particular." -- Bill Donohue, Catholic
    League

    "Mormonism either affirms historic Christianity, or it doesn't. Since
    it doesn't, it can't call itself Christianity -- a fact that all the
    good will and public relations in Utah can't change." -- Chuck Colson,
    Prison Fellowship Ministries

    "While Mormons share some beliefs with Christians, they are not
    Christians." -- Chuck Colson, Prison Fellowship Ministries

    "Most evangelicals still regard Mormonism as a cult." -- Rich Cizik,
    National Association of Evangelicals

  • Bobd
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:22 p.m.

    Jason,
    I'll give you some reality. You fail to understand the seperation of church and state and the basic tenets of the constitution that ensure freedom OF AND FROM religion. There is zero precidence for a religious organziation fearing lawsuits over this. Blacks did not sue for the priesthood, and neither have women. Non-mormons have not sued to get married in temples and neither have mormons who are not worthy of a temple recommend.

    There is nothing about the homosexuals gaining legal rights to marry that violates straight homophobes from practicing their own religion or living their lives how they want. There is absolutely no aspect of a homosexual's relationship or marraige that is detrimental to my own religion (which is currently questionably LDS), my ability to practice my religion, or the validity of my marriage or to be married. Every single criticism of homosexual marriage under the guise of protecting heterosexual rights is a complete sham.

    And really? you're going to sum up your argument with that? The reason the straight community is not suing the LGBT businesses or groups is because the LGBT isn't discriminating against the straights; There's nothing to sue over!

  • re: Jason M
    Dec. 10, 2008 3:24 p.m.

    I'm confused. Wasn't it was determined that BSA can legally discriminate because they are a private organization. Their written policy is that a "known or avowed" homosexual can not be a member of that organization. (In theory, whether they act on homosexual feelings or not.)

    I don't see the church's concern would be as it relates to the BSA.

    All this aside, anyone can be sued for just about anything. Nothing to prevent that. Winning is another matter.

  • Jason M
    Dec. 10, 2008 2:46 p.m.

    To Bobd

    It is not apples and oranges. It is reality. They Boy Scouts of America is a non-profit organization whos principles stand in direct opposition to the LGBT lifestyle. They were sued to allow participation. Same thing with the eHarmony (think thats the name). They were a matching service for men and women, they were sued because they didn't offer same sex matching service. Whether you're a church or not, if you don't provide service to the LGBT community eventually you will be sued. And I hate to tell you this, but it is not hate or bigotry to want to have principles, whether your the LDS church or the BSA. It is about people wanting the freedom not to be force to accept a lifestyle that goes directly in the face of what they believe. In my opinion it is not the christian community trying to force things on others, it is the LGBT comminuty doing it. You don't see the straight community sueing to be allowed into LGBT groups or businesses.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 10, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    Jason,
    The Boy Scouts of America is not a church. You are comparing apples to oranges in the same way every other fear mongering "they're gonna sue our rights away" theory was proposed in favor of prop 8. There is only one justification for it, the acceptance of bigotry and discrimination against a minority group.

  • To ALL Hypocrites
    Dec. 10, 2008 1:10 p.m.

    THE MOUTH PIECE HERE HAS NO MORE TO SAY!

  • Jason M
    Dec. 10, 2008 12:46 p.m.

    I think its been said a couple times in this thread already, but I think its worth saying again. Although the LDS church teaches against the practice of homosexuality, much the way it does regarding premarital sex or adultry, I think it has little to do with the reasoning behind why the chruch took such a public stance and encouraged its members to get involved. Where I do believe the LDS church has a sincere concern for the souls of those who choose this lifestyle I do not believe it would ever want to "impose" those beliefs as law.

    I believe the motives are much more about protecting the church and its ideals while maintaining its tax status. It doesn't take long before some isolated mambers of the group will seek to require the church to marry them, and sue if they don't. You can see it with things like the Boy Scouts of America, and other organizations who have been gone after for thier priciples. And this is not meant to pick on the homosexual community, all groups do it. Men wanting into an all women's gym is another example that has been in the news.

  • Vince
    Dec. 10, 2008 12:35 p.m.

    To JPL

    You mis-interpreted my comments,

    what I meant to say was that opposition to the LDS Church regarding gay marriage did not exist as vociferously --- it's a matter of perspective.

    As to your age, that might explain some of the comments you make. I'm not trying to be condescending, but people older than you have seen their share of anti-LDS protests and demonstrations.

    And you did say to me "you have obviously never attended General Conference" --- just check the words befure you assume.

  • Tivi
    Dec. 10, 2008 12:14 p.m.

    To 12:05

    I'm with you on what you said.

  • re: T
    Dec. 10, 2008 12:05 p.m.

    "Christ Himself said that if we are not with Him, we are against Him. By His own words, if we're not 100% behind the Lord, then we're not behind Him at all."

    I feel sorry for your children if you believe we as people are 100% anything. We are imperfect (most of us aren't even very good) but we try. For humans, righteousness is a direction, not a destination.

  • TIME after TIME
    Dec. 10, 2008 11:06 a.m.

    "There are only two forces at work on this DN blog, and that is Mr. Lambert and his computer.
    Perhaps, Mr Lambert can tell some of us who and where he came (ALIEN PLANET) from? Lets here about you Mr Lambert, and what makes you tick like a clock day after day on all these blogs? You are indeed a very interesting specimen of a human being. I cannot quite figure out how someone can spend so much time commenting as you seem to do? DN should have you as their DEAR ABBY COLUMN SPECIALIST or something.

  • R
    Dec. 10, 2008 10:52 a.m.

    It was Brigham Young that was a Democrat, not Lincoln (I thought that too obvious to mention.) Lincoln was obviously the first Republican President. When I used the words that Brigham Young was also a Democrat, I meant just that, he was also a Democrat and it should not have been assumed I referred to Lincoln as well, sheesh. My comparison was of Racial and combined Racial/Social attitudes of that time frame, especially given that there were associations between the two.
    I have a pet-peeve with the racist comments of Brigham Young spewing without mention of those same words coming out of the mouth of Lincoln, which did occur. While not right or pc by today's standards they were progressive AT THAT TIME even if some seem horrific to us now. One cannot read one sentence to judge the man.
    Now, knowing that premarital sex was wrong and knowing that blacks were held as effectively not quite human and therefore ineligible for marriage and that men often did rape their black female victims. Would death on the spot for that man be vulgar or protective of the raped female?

  • Cathy
    Dec. 10, 2008 10:44 a.m.

    Hey, John Lambert,
    WHO CARES!

    Is John Lambert some kind of a set up on here or what? It's getting mighty weird.

  • re: Lambert
    Dec. 10, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    "You may claim that they were making false claims, but to say that President Kimball never claimed to have recieved a revelation is a total and complete lie."

    Lie implies knowledge, Mr. Pomposity

  • re: T
    Dec. 10, 2008 10:34 a.m.

    "There are only two forces at work in this world. Only people are gray." - Chris Heimerdinger"

    Well, heavens, if Chris Heimerdinger said it, it must be true.

  • Mary
    Dec. 10, 2008 10:31 a.m.

    The same old blah, blah, blah every single day. So, I said once, and I'll say it again, and that is, if anyone is listening? I voted for prop-8.
    Now, I hope you are happy because the world seems to still be revolving around me.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 10, 2008 10:09 a.m.

    "In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation had been recieved by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church". This is how President N. Eldon Tanner began his presentation of Official Declaration 2 to the General Conference on September 30th, 1978. The body then was asked to "accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord" which they did.
    You may claim that they were making false claims, but to say that President Kimball never claimed to have recieved a revelation is a total and complete lie.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 10, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    To the 9:13 commentator,
    David B. Haight, Gordon B. Hinckley and others have unequivocably declared that Official Declaration 2 was a revelation.
    You can mock the methods of the Lord in revealing his word as much as you want. However, I will follow the prophets and hold to the revelations.
    I forgot to add that Bruce R. McConkie gave a talk latter than summer at BYU in which he unequivocably declared that this was a revelation from the Lord.

  • T: re: Lambert
    Dec. 10, 2008 9:19 a.m.

    "Life becomes less black and white once you understand it is a big world out there. Enjoy the ride."

    I'm not John Lambert, but to your comment, I'd offer one in return:

    "There are only two forces at work in this world. Only people are gray." - Chris Heimerdinger

    Either something is black, or it is white. It is wrong, or it is right. Christ Himself said that if we are not with Him, we are against Him. By His own words, if we're not 100% behind the Lord, then we're not behind Him at all.

    People are gray. We tend to confuse the issues. As humans, we rationalize, we make excuses, we seek answers with our limited understanding, and we convince ourselves and others of "the truth", but if it's not God's truth, then it's not really truth at all.

    His plan is black and white. Because we're gray, we're expected to make choices and conform ourselves to fit one side or the other. Being in the middle, we're not completely one or the other, but it's our job to choose which one we want to be. If we don't ever choose, the choice will be made for us.

  • More Revisionist History
    Dec. 10, 2008 9:13 a.m.

    I remember very well when President Kimball changed the policy on blacks and the priesthood. He did not say that it was a revelation at all. He gathered the Quorum of Twelve in the temple and had them vote on it unanimously after they had been fasting. It is quite convenient how one can get a unanimous vote after starving them. Now the church teaches it was a "revelation." Very convenient.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 10, 2008 9:08 a.m.

    To R,
    However Lincoln was absolutely never a Democrat. He was a Whig before he became a Republican.
    On the other hand Brigham Young told many missionaries he sent to preach the gospel to Native Americans that they should take Native American wives. Ira Hatch was one of the few missionaries who actually followed his counsel on this topic, but it actually shows how Brigham Young's views were on this issue not entirely the same as his contemporaries.
    To understand Brigham Young you need to jettison the binary view of race and see race as an issue involving a wide array of possibilities.

  • Jim
    Dec. 10, 2008 9:04 a.m.

    Re Lambert,
    Has anyone ever posted and asked for your counseling and advise? I was just wondering because you seem to think you must tell each one of us just how it is out there. Have you lived half your life like a good many of us have, to know everything thing there is to know about life? hummm?

    You tire me boy!

  • R
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:58 a.m.

    Muntz, too bad you didn't actually study Lincoln or you would know him as a different man than the one presented to mainstream America, the one whose history has been sanitized. Lincoln, a contemporary of Brigham Young was like B.Y., a racist. Also like Brigham Young, Lincoln did not believe that slaves should be treated inhumanely. Like Brigham Young, Lincoln also believed that slaves should have been returned to Africa because of separatist beliefs. Perhaps it is not completely bizarre considering that B.Y. was also a Democrat as were most Mormons at the time.

  • Cecile
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:54 a.m.

    I say the ire is well-earned.

  • RE: re Southern Utah
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:48 a.m.

    It was not me who said those words, I am only repeating what that Black member had told me in response to my question to him. You can go seek him out and talk to him about it. I only told this story to prove to people that "some" Black LDS members were happy no matter the outcome. Don't take me wrong, he preferred to have the Priesthood, but he would have been happy either way, not my words his words.

  • If only
    Dec. 10, 2008 12:30 a.m.

    If only both sides in this argument would quit trying to shove their views down each others' throats. I skipped most of the comments to get to the end, and it's the same people having the same arguments over and over--not only on this story, but any other story involving the LDS Church's involvement with prop8. Both sides claim to have tolerance and love for others, so maybe we could all try to have respect in these forums so we could make some real progress in working together to find solutions--instead of making divisive comments that only incite anger.

  • re: Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 11:53 p.m.

    High school mid-90s? No wonder your hundreds (thousands?) of posts lack the voice of experience. Life becomes less black and white once you understand it is a big world out there. Enjoy the ride.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 10:25 p.m.

    The Church will never regret its support of Proposition 8 and will never change from advocating marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 10:22 p.m.

    To Vince,
    My point is that you claimed that opposition to the Church did not really exist before Proposition 8. I pointed out protests in Salt Lake City to show they existed.
    I was not making any comments about attendance of general conference per se. I am just saying that attacks on the Church are nothing new.
    I experieced no lack of mocking and derision of the church and its teachings when I was in high school in the mid-1990s, so the idea that opposition to the Church is a result of Proposition 8 is just unfounded.

  • Ok Lambert Enough
    Dec. 9, 2008 7:50 p.m.

    To: John Pack Lambert
    I'm not an "Anti-Mormon," or someone trying stir the pot. I'm a member of your church politely asking you to stop posting like you are a hired church spokesmen. After reading your countless exclusive comments it's obviously that you don't realize that you are doing so much more harm than good. This is an Internet board , it's as public as it gets, and when you post as if you're a priesthood leader giving a church member a scathing lecture you come off as condescending, irrational, and rude. Don't get defensive, just stop. Don't pretend I'm attacking you or your beliefs, just stop. Please stop.

  • Puffer fish
    Dec. 9, 2008 6:57 p.m.

    RE: JPL 2:35pm

    OH BROTHER!!!

  • bobd
    Dec. 9, 2008 6:39 p.m.

    The simple truth is that proposition 8 was, regardless of your stance on whether gays are a sin or not, an act of a religion projecting their morals on nonbelievers. It was an act of Christianity and in particular the LDS church shifting from a position of reflecting Christian values for society to see, to enforcing Christian values for society to obey.

    If God wanted his church to enact laws, then Jesus would have came as a secular/worldly king, ordered the people to do well and sin no more with the might of the Roman army (or any other one of his choosing) and the physical law at his side, then finished his job with a decree that he should be killed to save the world from their sins.

    It's a shame when people that don't understand their own religion or have yet to perfect themselves feel they have the right or the authority to force others to obey religious law.

  • Nelson
    Dec. 9, 2008 6:34 p.m.

    Re: Nelson | 3:07

    I never said anything about tax exempt status nor do I care about that. And I'm not an outsider rejecting this as an excuse, I'm an active member rejecting this as an excuse. He didn't need God's approval to lift it, he seeked God's approval to explain why, when he could find no evidence for the restriction, it existed. It existed because people tend to stick to ignorance until they're forced out of it. Someday members of the church will look back on proposition 8 with as much remorse as they do about the circumstances surrounding the blacks receiving the priesthood.

  • Muntz
    Dec. 9, 2008 6:30 p.m.

    R,
    Your understanding of his words is as accurate as your understanding of Lincoln's objectives. He freed the slaves to gain a cause for Europe to get behind during the civil war. He needed assistance and the moral issue was his only trump card over the south when it came to convincing Europeans to pick a side..

  • re "to realitycheck" 3:30pm
    Dec. 9, 2008 4:33 p.m.

    "If you want me to explain any verse in the bible, I will."

    now that is true condescention. you will explain to him? and you are positive your explanation is correct.... how? because someone told you so?

    please - get off your pedestal and realize your interpretation is simpy your opinion, nothing more. It's not correct, nor incorrect. It's simply your opinion.

    all of you out there should try to come to the sane conclusion that everything you say in interpreting the bible is simply your (or your leaders') opinion.

    The bible can be interpreted innummerable ways. Don't kid yourselves into thinking your way is the right way, nor the only way. Everyone has an opinion - you just push yours onto others more than most people do. I mean, you actually go to people's houses to push it on them. (The truly ironic part is you call that "missionary work" when in practically any other religion (or even non-religions) "missionary work" involves going to places with significant hunger and strife and helping those people. It doesn't mean going to Atlanta and showing up at middle and upper class homes trying to get converts (and tithing bonuses.)

  • Vince
    Dec. 9, 2008 4:22 p.m.

    To John Pack Lambert | 2:22 p.m. Dec. 9, 2008

    As a gay LDS man --- and hello, we gays are everywhere --- so wake up John.

    I am not advocating that people go against Church leaders ---

    I am saying, however, do not make it political.

    If it does get taken to the political arena, then we will make a political argument, not a religious one.

  • realitycheck
    Dec. 9, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    re 3:30pm poster:

    "You believe in a living prophet too. For you, it is your desires (you blindly do whatever they say)"

    wow. Now that took some imagination... My desires are a prophet? are you serious? and I follow them blindly? didn't know that. If that were true, I'd be cheating on my wife and be broke... so that pops that bubble.

    and you can quote all the scripture you want. Since men wrote it, it's unclear to me that it's God's word. But I'm sure you, who believes even men today exist that have conversations with the Almighty, are certainly convinced in the bible reflects only God's word...

    But you are right - God does speak to me, and to you too. It's called your conscience, and if you listen closely, you will lead a kind and noble life. Or you can live by rules written by men over the last 2000 years. We'll end up in the same place in the end - I just get to have more fun that you, and get to give my money to people in need instead of being forced to give it to a church under threat of disenfranchisement.

  • Vince
    Dec. 9, 2008 4:14 p.m.

    Re: 12:53 a.m. Dec. 9, 2008

    I don't believe my targeting of energies are mis-directed.

    While yes, the California voters cast their ballots and other groups were involved, there was an enormous amount of Utah and Mormon money coming in to assist with to aid the Prop 8 campaign.

    And BTW, I am focusing my energies elsewhere as well.

  • Vince
    Dec. 9, 2008 4:11 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert | 2:47 p.m. Dec. 9, 2008

    Johh, John, John...

    What do people do with you?

    I don't need to go to Salt Lake to attend General Conference. You know that --- Come on.

    Attend General Conference? Which year do you want me to quote --- Pres. Benson's talk on pride? Pres. Hinckley's talks on the growth and temple building?

    Reminder: People don't need to go to Utah to know what's going on in the Church.

    So strike 1.

    As far as the anti-Mormon demonstrations --- outside of Prop 8. --- humn --- I have seen my share --- many at temples --- I'll say that it included when one was built.

    Strike 2.

    You assume too much.

    My take this time around is that I wholeheartedly disagree, not with the Church's own stand on homosexuality, that's every Church's take on where they will take their stand on interpretation of canon.

    Rather, I disagree with the Church's view on making it political.

    That I happen to be gay --- well, it is what it is.

  • Re Southern Utah
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:50 p.m.

    I am a faithful LDS member but your post really misses the point. The curse of accountability is a small price to pay for the reward that accountability brings: all that God has. So to characterize these members as happy either way is misleading. How could you be truly happy knowing there was much more reward out of reach?

    To try to gloss over the past this way, saying it really wasn't a big deal, does us a disservice. What faithful mormon would deny himself the priesthood because of the "curse" it brings with it? To suggest receiving the priesthood is a zero sum game, where you gain a little but are cursed in an equal and off-setting amount, completely misunderstands this doctrine.

  • to "Re:Nelson" @ 3:07pm
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:42 p.m.

    so... "President Kimball was constantly pleading to the Lord for approval - and finally received it in 1978"

    how did he receive it, may I ask? please - enlighten us.

    then you say "We do not know why it took God so long to approve this decision"... what? are you serious? it probably took a long time because your president couldn't quite figure out how to convince normal, rational people that he had actually had a conversation with the Creator....

    so - pray tell - how were your leaders informed of God's decision? I'm pretty sure the seer stones don't work anymore...

    And if you don't know how he was told, or how your leaders actually chat with God, then I can think of no reason to believe you (and can think of no reason why you would believe it either...)

    perhaps you know John Pack Lambert. If not, you should meet - you have much in common...

  • realitycheck
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert - if you ever want to read what it sounds like when an overbearing religious zealot talks - just read your posts. God himself isn't as overbearing as you.

    kick people out for disagreeing with Monroe? secret operations to "ferret" out prop 8 supporters? perhaps I've been right all along - mormons and scientologists aren't that different...

  • r
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    Muntz, you have to read all the words to understand the context including that of time. Again, Abraham Lincoln said some whoppers by todays standards that are just as bad. In fact he wanted slavery to end and then ship all slaves to Africa even the ones born here that knew nothing about Africa, the language, or how to live there.

    Lambert, you discussed Godmaker by using the word "feeling." You attempted to insult my decision by associating me with an individual that I find vulgar as if that could be the only reason I left. Again, I left not because of even judgmental people like yourself, but through study of the scripture itself. Do what is appropriate and apologize.

  • to realitycheck
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:30 p.m.

    I read the article. It was so biased I had a hard time finishing. Yeah he made some points where it depends on interpretation, but he took so many sayings out of context and the Hebrew and Greek backgrounds of the bible that I have a hard time believing that he even read the bible, he probably just skimmed parts of it. As for the "fact" that the bible doesn't say anything about gays, read the quoted verses by other posters and explain them to me if that doesn't mean it is against homosexuality. Yes, God does love gays like the article says and yes he probably would spend more time with them, but he hates Homosexuality and does not condone it. If you want me to explain any verse in the bible, I will.

    By the way, dinosaurs did exist (most LDS believe that, it is hard not to).
    You believe in a living prophet too. For you, it is your desires (you blindly do whatever they say)
    It's funny how paying 10% into this pyramid has allowed me to overcome debt and live comfortably.

  • RE: To Harley
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    I think that you are assuming that I am gay or lesbian. I am not. I am one that believes in individual right of choice which is a God given right. God gave us the ability to make decisions.

  • re John Pack Lambert 3:06pm 12/8
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    it figures you would try to ban certain comments.

    ban false acusations against Joseph Smith? first, whjo's to say what is true or false? you say it's gays are immoral - as if it's fact. but is it really true, or JUST YOUR OPINION?? so you can't ban anything, since you don't really KNOW what's true or false - you just BELIEVE you know.

    ban the "r word" and profanity? most of us have absolutely no iea what word is the "r" word, unless you mean "religion" and since you're such an expert, we couldn't possible ban that word. Profanity? Haven't ever seen any on here, but I'm 100% sure that your idea of profanity and most other people's idea are vastly different.

    Me thinks you are simply someone that wishes they were a prophet or some kind of leader in your church but since you're so over-zealous the "powers that be" simply keep passing you by. Actually can't say I blame them... Everyone would have a headache trying to keep up with your "holier-than-thou" attitude....

  • Southern Utah
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:09 p.m.

    I have met several Black LDS member who were members long before 1978. I even ask a particular member how he felt about it, to him he said it was a blessing and a curse.

    When he was able to receive the Priesthood he felt blessed greatly. The cursed part came in the form of now he is held accountable for having that blessing of the priesthood, now he was accountable for needing to go to the temple, now he was accountable for all the same things a current priesthood holder had. Before that all he was accountable for was being a baptized member of the church. So you can see that he was happy either way. The Lord would have taken care of him and his family no matter the outcome of being able to have or hold the Priesthood.

    This statement to me by this particular Black member has always stuck with me throughout my life. PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY = ACCOUNTABILITY.

  • Re: Nelson
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:07 p.m.

    You assume that the decision to give the priesthood to blacks was up to men. I've read the writings of President Kimball in particular and he was constantly pleading to the Lord for approval - and finally received it in 1978, well after the church had received tremendous flack during the sixties.

    The point that the church was about to lose its tax exempt status is exaggerated at best and a lie at worst.

    We do not know why it took so long for God to approve this decision. Many members, including my parents constantly prayed that it might happen. Joseph Smith was an enemy to slavery (which was part of why the Mormons were not wanted in Missouri) and had many black friends.

    I can see how an outsider would reject this as an excuse. You believe what you want to believe, but I know that Pres. Kimball and earlier leaders wanted the ban lifted and needed approval from God to do so.

  • Re:To Harley
    Dec. 9, 2008 3:03 p.m.

    Leviticus 20:13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    I do not fear my GOD. I will not fear my GOD.

    Leviticus is sorely outdated. Is the plan to sentence all homosexuals to death?


  • to John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:57 p.m.

    ward? you mean psyco ward?

    testimony? witness? what - are you in court, under arrest for religious over-zealousness?

    you can certainly believe that back in the 1800s some dude used some rocks in a hat to read ancient scrolls that allowed him to talk to God. (Kind of hard to say with a straight face, but whatever.) You can even give 10% of your money to the largest pyramid scam in history. But don't act like you have God's ear. And don't act like your leaders are prophets. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Just like the easter bunny and santa claus, it's all open to dispute.

    We can tell you believe yourself to be a religious authority. Again, just because you believe something doesn't make it true....

  • realitycheck
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    I suggest you all read the article in Newsweek where they discuss the fact that the bible really doesn't address gays. You all just decided to interprete the bible against gays. But that's to be expected from people that believe in seer stone magic and living prophets, think dinosaurs never existed, and continue to put at least 10% of their paycheck into the biggest pyramid scheme ever created...

    if it gives you all a warm fuzzy feeling, then I guess it's worth it... but it still doesn't make anything in the bible be against gays... only you, and most other religious zealots..

  • to Nelson
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:47 p.m.

    Wow, where do I start?

    How many blacks were given the chance for the highest kingdom?

    Not all.

    How many blacks will be given the chance for the highest kingdom?

    All.

    Why didn't the church allow the blacks to hold the priesthood for so long?

    If you find the answer to the question of:

    Why did God not allow the children of Israel that were not of the tribe of Levi to hold the priesthood?

    Sure the blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood, but that does not make them any less blessed. They did not have the responsibility of the priesthood either. God had a different purpose for them. If you want a world where God treats all of his children equally, go to a different world. He treats us all differently, but blesses us equally (according to our obedience and faith).

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:47 p.m.

    To Vince,
    You obviously have never been to General Conference. There were people protesting and yelling "All Mormons are going to Hell" long before Prop 8.
    You also ignore the pro-Murphy protests that occured in SLC six years ago, and many other attacks from many sides on the Church and its teachings.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:44 p.m.

    To the 11:30 commentator,
    No, it is I who present the truth that the Church believes in absolutes, and that the doctrine of the Church on same gender marriage is not open for debate.
    I may at times on other issues state my opinion in ways that are not clearly different from the view of the church.
    However on this issue it is a 100% clear position of the Church that only marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
    It seems you really dislike that President Monson and his counselors spoke out and urged action. He is a wonderful man who teaches us true principals of Christian living.
    They are obviously more patient with rebels than I am, since the Church has not carried out operations to ferret out secret supporters of same-gender marriage like it did in the 1930s to ferret out supporters of plural marriage. Not that I think the church should do such on the SGM issue. However President Monson and his counselors have for the most part left discipline of apostates to local leaders, focusing on teaching principals of Christian living.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:35 p.m.

    To Sarah Nicole,
    It is because of the wonderful comments by people like you that I continue to wade through the DN boards, which too often get filled up by comments from people who mock the experiences of revelation from the Holy Ghost that Church members recieve.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:33 p.m.

    To Katelynn,
    You make the assumption that some of these people ever go in and see their bishops for tithing settlement. I know, everyone is urged and encoraged to go, but that does not mean there are not members who do not bother.
    I will make one last attempt to state my position clearly. The people who I feel are endangering their Church membership are those who have turned the cause against Prop 8 into a full crusade in which they have stated the First Presidency is violating the teachings of scripture. It is when people in stating their position on this issue go as far as to claim the First Presidency is acting contrary to the word of God that they have started on the path to apostasy.
    Maybe my feeling that the church should excommunicate all apostates is too harsh a response, but it should also be noted that some of my comments merely state I feel people in some cases should be called before disciplinary counsels, which is not the same thing as excommunicating them.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:26 p.m.

    To R,
    I never claimed that I knew by the spirit that you had indulged the teachings of Decker.
    However, no matter how much you mock my testimony and witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God it will not change the fact that it is.
    My ward has felt more unity because of the attacks the Church has suffered of late.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:22 p.m.

    To the 4:15 commentator,
    I maybe have gone over the top at times, but I am tired of people trying to claim they are members in good standing while they denigrate the church, its teachings, and especially when they wilfully act in direct opposition to the counsel of the Firsti Presidency.

  • to Harley
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:20 p.m.

    Here are some specific verses you can read.

    This is in Leviticus 18.

    1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

    Here are some more commandments

    22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    And the consequences

    28 That the aland spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

    No society has ever flourished that accepted homosexuality as something OK. Sounds like California (along with many other states) has spued you out. They would do more if the constitution didn't protect you.

    There is a counter-example to your claim.

    Explain to me if I am wrong in some way and how.

  • muntz
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:16 p.m.

    R:
    was Brigham Young being progressive when he said that as a law of God that "if the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot"?

    Or was that just an off day for him?

  • nelson
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:09 p.m.

    Vince,
    I am LDS and it still makes no sense other than under the guise of bigotry and racism. Saying that other churches do not grant priesthood to members does not negate the fact that blacks were specifically omitted within the mormon church. The only reason they were not allowed was because no one questioned why (probably too busy worrying about the sins of others as they are still doing today). It took over a decade after the civil rights movement for the president of the church to stand up for something all members should have recognized as true decades, if not a century earlier. To take the "we don't know why" approach is a mockery of the logic and reasoning abilities that even a child posesses.

    You really think Blacks had all the blessings of church membership? Without the priesthood how many blacks were sealed in the temple? How many were given the chance for the highest kingdom? I'd say that's a pretty big aspect to the blessings of the church based on the doctrine taught.

    I'd also be very interested to see what you think the mormons have done to embrace others that stands out amidst other churches.

  • to Harley
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:00 p.m.

    Leviticus 18:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

    there are a ton more commandments here (read them if you please)

    Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    If you want the Hebrew version so that you can see that "lie" means to have sex with, I can give that to you as well.

    I provided a counterexample. Now explain to me why this is incorrect if it is?

  • To harley
    Dec. 9, 2008 1:56 p.m.

    try reading the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It seems that God definitely judged that city and if you read the story, you will know why. So there is no "omission" save the omission of your actually reading the bible which is quite clear about the definition using words like 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Please don't forget 20:1 which reads 20:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

  • RE:Steve
    Dec. 9, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    "Seriously, is the church really that influential in California? If people listened to everything the church said, the missionaries would be loving life!"

    On this issue, there is little doubt that the church's influence clearly outweighed its small percentage of the population. As an LDS person who was anti-8, there were people on our larger intersections waving signs nightly before the election. As I looked at the crowds doing so, they were at least 75% LDS.

    In addition, are we to believe that if no on 8 outspent the yes side 2 to 1 that yes would have still won? The spending would have been 2 to 1 without LDS members' money.

    Inside the church, we are still taking credit for the victory. A member from Utah attended our ward and in his testimony this past week he said that during the campaign "the eyes of Utah were on California and you gained a lot of respect for your efforts." In my son's singles, the bishop (more than a month after the campaign) held an entire meeting on prop 8 and thanked and congratulated the members for their efforts.

    Privately we were the moving force, public we deny it.

  • re: ERIC LARSEN
    Dec. 9, 2008 1:35 p.m.

    You better listen to your leaders and quit harassing those who have a right to freedom of speech.

    You Vikings are all alike.

  • Harley
    Dec. 9, 2008 1:18 p.m.

    Think like Christ. Christ: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Christ: Did they judge you? Girl: No Sir they did not. Christ: Then nor will I. Go and sin no more.

    No where in the bible does Christ or God say anything about homosexuality. It is most certainly mentioned by disciples but not by Christ. Disciples are no more perfect than any of us and they make mistakes in judgment. I give you the example of Judas.

    GOD makes no mistakes! God and Christ would not have made the mistake of ommision.

  • Vince
    Dec. 9, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    While I am for gay marriage rights ---

    non-LDS people do not understand something about Blacks and the priesthood nor about race relations between the LDS and Blacks.

    If you are not LDS, when you speak about granting Blacks the priesthood, most churches do not grant the priesthood to their members --- Black, White, or otherwise --- in most other churches --- it's a select few --- even in Christian and Old Testament times, it was a select few who received the priesthood.

    I think non-LDS are under the impression that Blacks were somehow not allowed to have all the blessings of Church membership ---

    Blacks did not hold the priesthood, for reasons unknown ---

    Nonetheless, the LDS had a long history of embracing multicultural groups and reaching out to all peoples --- way back clear in the 1830's --- something which cannot be said for other religious groups.

  • R
    Dec. 9, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    There are people in Utah that were buried without graves. I would also have an impossible time believing that the person remained a slave of the pioneer family under Brigham Young. While he said many things that would now be deemed as racist (but not different than Abraham Lincoln, a contemporary), he was actually progressive at the time and wrote that people deserved judgment for their cruelty and treatment of slaves. In fact, Missouri created laws because the Mormons were known to have aided the rescue of slaves. Mormons were historically Democrats and only changed en masse after the polygamy issue.

    Jesus did not preach to non-jews, so was he racist?

  • Steven
    Dec. 9, 2008 11:56 a.m.

    Where are the graves in Utah, of the BLACK people who came here during Mormon pioneer times? A friend of mine said that their family had a black slave who came to Utah with their pioneer families, and that they have sought to find these graves but have never found them...what's with this?

  • Re: Re; Kudos | 10:49am
    Dec. 9, 2008 11:21 a.m.

    For all your sensitivity, you as a church sure took a long time to recognize the suffering of the Blacks in granting them the priesthood. You don't get to claim the victim while having a history of victimizing others; but the church's members have a tendency to forget the wrongs of their own very quickly and seem to enjoy focusing on the affliction within their own lives as it provides a theorhetical oppression that delusionally affirms their being of holiness.

    A religion that claims to be Christian by promoting spending all of one's time and means to remove the rights of a microscopic fragment of the population rather than addressing legitimate issues and legitimate needs of hundreds of millions of suffering people throughout the world needs to seriously rethink their priorities.

  • Re: Re; Kudos | 10:49
    Dec. 9, 2008 11:13 a.m.

    If you can find a passage in the Scriptures where God or Jesus (not a church or priest) used a societal government to legally enforce Biblical law on a seperate religion or culture within the same society then your argument holds water...but the passages do not exist, and your argument is full of holes.

  • Re; Kudos
    Dec. 9, 2008 10:49 a.m.

    First, it's simply your opinion that "the church was on the wrong side of the issue." Anyone who can read the Bible and say that God did not condemn homosexuality is either defiant, stupid, or delusional. It's so plain, it can't possibly be confused or missed. And spare me the age-old example of some obscure verse that allows stoning of rebellious child - we're talking about 15 passages in the OT and NT that make it VERY clear.

    Second, again it is your opinion, but to say the LDS are "playing victim" again is insenstive. I personally have ancestors who were killed and driven off their property by redneck mobs. Today's challenges are minor in comparison, but given the LDS history, I think you can understand why we are sensitive to being singled out.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 9, 2008 9:11 a.m.

    Hummm? What's all this John Lambert stuff? Is he a church spy?

    I voted for prop 8 and hope in someway it helped.

  • Cindy
    Dec. 9, 2008 9:03 a.m.

    I think that the blogger by the name of John P Lambert, should have church court held on him for playing God on all church blogs. He worries me with all his strange preaching.

  • on prop 8
    Dec. 9, 2008 8:54 a.m.

    anti mormons voted FOR prop 8 yet mormons are the ones being boycotted.

  • DAVE
    Dec. 9, 2008 8:50 a.m.

    What is John P. Lambert some kind of control freak? OR A WANNABE CHURCH AUTHORITY? Unfortunately,there are those members out there like this who have that kind of pushy attitude, we have several in our ward. I stay far away from these people.

  • R
    Dec. 9, 2008 8:33 a.m.

    Lambert, just in case you missed it, I never read or saw the GodMakers. I was anonymously sent it while actively LDS and burned it on the BBQ since I felt and feel Decker was as honest as Jimmy Swaggart. That burning in your bosom "feeling" that you had was wrong just as your "feeling" that you believe to be the Holy ghost might be equally as wrong. Thank you for sharing how judgmental church members can be while I, as an ex-mo was sharing how loving they were with the example I gave of an active temple attending LDS member opening her home giving free food and housing to a young, out, gay man that needed the example of Christ's love. You should try that example some time rather than what you attempted with me. Ah but the few ruin it for the many.

  • Kudos
    Dec. 9, 2008 7:19 a.m.

    To the NYT for running the ad. And, all you conservative Mormons who constantly blast the NYT ought to praise them here.

    There is no place for violence or intimidation in this debate. But, the church was wrong on this issue and is on the wrong side of history (again). There is absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing a bad decision and the church that was to mechanism by which over 20 million dollars was raised in support of a bill that stripped rights from a minority.

    So, you Mormons can stop playing victim right about now. That, my friends, is getting REALLY old.

  • alden
    Dec. 9, 2008 4:59 a.m.

    Regardless of their minority population, the LDS church played the majority role in funding Proposition 8; their "gee golly, why us?" attitude they are taking at the backlash is idiotic at best. They continuously preach of religious freedom and tolerance previously and presently but have repeatedly made mistakes and conducted intentional activities toward repressing the rights of others to practice their own religion or be free from religion entirely.

    As a member of the church, I have a very hard time reconciling my beliefs that were formed from the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament of the Bible with the actions of the theorhetically "Restored Church" in the modern age. I wasn't aware that the "Restoration" included the abandonment of the principle Jesus taught when he wrote the sins of others in the sand. The concept that we are supposed to "Follow the Prophet" without any consideration of our role is absurd. We aren't blind sheep, and we weren't intended to be so; just joining the church is supposed to be a personal decision made after plenty of thought, prayer, and consideration, once a member the process of thinking and praying through our decisions does not cease.

  • Thugs
    Dec. 9, 2008 2:20 a.m.

    The thugs aren't proven to be any gay individuals. If the gays want to protest, it is their right given to everyone in the constitution. Free speech! Damage to the property could have been any sick individual opportunist, happens all of the time. When events occur, opportunists come a calling. 9-11/anthrax in the mail for example. Get the picture?

  • re: Vince
    Dec. 9, 2008 12:53 a.m.

    You say "I am not attacking the LDS theology, but I am defending my right to marry against those who will take it away."

    The LDS church did not take it away. 52.5% of the voters of California did, assuming you live in California.

    Majorities in other states where very few Mormons even live approved similar measures.

    I know you are upset about it, but your anger is mis-directed. Note that the LDS people will listen to you and respond. Go try to even find a blog like this from other churches, the NAACP, etc.

  • Steve
    Dec. 9, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    OK, let's try to take a look at this with a sense of humor.

    Seriously, is the church really that influential in California? If people listened to everything the church said, the missionaries would be loving life!

    It's obvious to me that the church is an easy target. A proposition was put on the ballot (not by the church or by its members). People voted on the proposition based on their conscience. I'm sure people of all backgrounds voted on both sides of the issue.

    As my dad used to say, if you don't want to know what I think, why did you ask?

  • Ron
    Dec. 9, 2008 12:21 a.m.

    10 pages of comments. What a massive waste of time!

    Did anyone really change their minds after reading all of this? I doubt it.

  • Hendrix
    Dec. 9, 2008 12:07 a.m.

    One last thing. I'm getting pretty tired of LDS folks claiming that they are being oppressed because of this backlash. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is voting to take away rights from church-going LDS people. EXPECT TO HAVE PEOPLE ANGRY AT YOU WHEN YOU OPPRESS SOMEBODY ELSE!! It's like a bully punching a kid, the kid punches back, and the bully says, "What was that for?"

  • Vince
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:43 p.m.

    To Lynn | 10:27 p.m. Dec. 8, 2008

    "Suddenly it's PC to target Christians because they stand for morality, and it's especially PC to target Mormons because they are a small minority of Christians,and others, who voted against Proposition 8, and many groups feel Mormons are fair game anyway, thanks to the bigotry and hatred of many angry anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons."

    Please take note that before Prop 8 Mormons were doing their own thing and no one bothered them.

    I am not proposing that violence and non-democratic methods be used against the LDS Church ---

    But I am saying that the LDS Church, for its involvement en masse, should be able to defend such a feat as to place a great deal of social questioning of morality.

    If they play the politics game, enter it, and defend it --- but don't play the number of "oh well, now we voted, we'll just go quiet about our business, nobody bother us please"

    I, for one, am not attacking the LDS theology, but I am defending my right to marry against those who will take it away.

  • Hendrix
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:38 p.m.

    P.S. You can stand up for what you believe in. We all enjoy the right of free speech. However, when what you believe in is immoral, you will be viewed by the greater population as an agent of evil. Case in point, the LDS church's prop 8 supporters are being viewed as evil for "standing up for what they believe in" when what they believe in is taking away rights from a specific group of people. I'm sure plenty of people "stood up for what they believed in" when they themselves tried to combat the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s. It didn't make them right or "moral" or just. In fact it made them seem evil, intolerant, and ignorant. You certainly can be proud to stand up for your beliefs when your beliefs don't hurt anybody. I am. Once again, I'm not trying to tear anybody or anybody's faith down. It's just that when you take a step back and look at the "big picture", there is quite a bit of insight to be gained.

  • surfer
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:35 p.m.

    I feel like I've been cleaned up by a 10 wave set at Mavericks- and I didnt even read pages 6 thru 8!!! One things for sure though,every one of you(that I read)made me think,and that is a good thing. It also made me realize that I care about each and every one of you,_and thats a GREAT THING!!

  • Please stop Mr. Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:30 p.m.

    Mr. Lambert, it appears that you have sincere intentions of sharing your (our) faith, but are unintentionally doing more damage than good. Posting on every controversial story with an absolute moral authority is not helping people to better understand Mormonism. Your tactics are condescending and exclusive. Please stop.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:26 p.m.

    I voted a few days early in Southern CA and stood in line for 3.5 hours in order to do so. It was wild. There were people from all walks of life and minority groups in the line. I voted for prop-8 and am Mormon. In the line were gays holding hands. I have nothing against them, I just voted for what I believe is right and they had the same right. Most the Mormon's I know are very loving and tolerant of all other people. The only exceptions are a few teenage boys who like to bash certain ethnic groups or gays, but that is typical for their age.

  • Lynn
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:27 p.m.

    First, I can't believe the nonsense I've read here tonight. All the "show me the proof" that there was violence against Mormons, vandalism of the chapels and Temples, etc. To those posters, I would ask, where have you been? It's been all over the news, all over the Internet, on You Tube, etc. How can you even ask such a question!

    Second, the allegation that the Church took out the ad in the NY Times is absurd! Why is it so difficult to believe that people from all walks of life, many different religions, and different spectrums of intellectual and political thought backed the members of the Church because it was the right thing to do? Face it, the violence against the Church was wrong, and it's a threat against all religious groups. Suddenly it's PC to target Christians because they stand for morality, and it's especially PC to target Mormons because they are a small minority of Christians,and others, who voted against Proposition 8, and many groups feel Mormons are fair game anyway, thanks to the bigotry and hatred of many angry anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons.

    That group shows up here, all the time.

  • Oh, yeah
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:16 p.m.

    NOW I HAVE HEARD EVERYTHING!

    MEN POSTING AS WOMEN.

  • Sarah Nichole
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:05 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert,

    Thanks for posting the name of your blog, I've been meaning to ask you for it for a few days now. I appreciate your defense of the Lord, His prophets and His church. The hateful comments on these boards (from people of all faiths) can really bring a person down sometimes, but I always find your comments, and those of many others, uplifting. Thanks again!

  • BG
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:14 p.m.

    Those who are terrorizing the LDS Church, in the name of civil rights, are wrong, dead wrong! Everyone has the right to think and make a choice, without fear of retribution. The New York Times has it right on this one. Good Job!

  • mark
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:03 p.m.

    i'm glad that those latter-day saints are getting support from other groups. personally, i think that there's nothing wrong with same sex marriages except that they are ...immoral. but what is morality after all? may be we should take it out of our laws, he-he....hm.

  • Vince
    Dec. 8, 2008 7:23 p.m.

    To: Roxanne | 5:43 p.m. Dec. 8, 2008

    When you say that being "gay is deliberate" ---

    do you mean to say "as deliberate as being heterosexual?"

    If so, sure, I take you at your word ---

    See how ridiculous these statement sound ---

    "Being straight is not the way you're wired, it's a choice."
    "if all the straight people would just change"
    "I sure wish the straight people would just quit being so straight. It is so annoying."

    of course the above are ridiculous

    When we gay people hear straight people make comments like that about gay people, that is exactly how they sound to us --- ridiculous ---

    and before anyone asks, no, I am not on any substances.

  • Katelynn M. Beckwith
    Dec. 8, 2008 6:19 p.m.

    This blog has made a mockery of the Church. Members need to follow the Prophet. PERIOD. There are some some poeple out there that need to see you Bishop. In fact now that you will be seeing you Bishop for tithing settlement, you may want to bring up your disdain for the teachings of the Church and the word of Father in Heaven. Some of you are a piece of work.

  • Roxanne
    Dec. 8, 2008 6:06 p.m.

    was your post suppose to be irony? I am not saying it was not I am just wondering.

  • Teeth
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:50 p.m.

    I only have one thing to say--LOL!

  • Roxanne
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    Okay folks calm down. We are all humans and we all make silly mistakes, and that is okay. However, being a gay person is not okay, because it is deliberate.

  • @blog leader
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:42 p.m.

    so blog leader why not take the lead and direct the energy of the masses here to do some good in the world? Maybe offer a way to bring people together for a common humanitarian cause.

  • irony? Hypocrasy ?
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:30 p.m.

    sorry "I hate people who are closed minded bigots" was suppose to be in parenthesis in my last post as I was quoting "Beverly"

  • Blog leader
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:29 p.m.

    And there was much bickering on the land of BLOG, Saint against saint, John against bloggers, until there were only devils left to comment about absolutely nothing.

  • irony? hypocrasy?
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:16 p.m.

    what the heck? Show me where i stated that anyone should not be allowed to say what they want. I was pointing out the irony of Johns post. The really funny thing is you did the exact same thing he did.
    I hate people who are closed minded bigots. Kind of a contradictory of terms don't you think. the only thing i can figure out is that you somehow mistook my quote of John as my words. No where did I ever claim that the LDS people all think alike. Anyway please reread my previous post I think you may have misunderstood my point.

  • M. Andersen
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:12 p.m.

    Kick all members out of the church who are trolls, and don't live perfect lives. They all need to go!!!

  • R
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:05 p.m.

    John Lambert, it seems the burning in your bosom about Ed Decker and my having "read or watched him" is wrong. Your "feelings" about another book, you know the one, might be equally as wrong. In fact, I bet my life on it.

  • Doug P.
    Dec. 8, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    Thanks Eric,

    Most of the blogs here from both sides are simply throwing epithets and are non-productive discourse. Lets express our opinions with respect for one another, even if we do not agree with or respect the other's point of view.

    Thank to the Beckett Fund, for your support of religious freedom of speach and expression.

  • r
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:57 p.m.

    No Lambert, I didn't leave because of God makers and never saw the movie or read the book though it was anonymously sent to me. I mentioned "temple attending" because that is the degree of faithfulness that this person has for the church. She is faithful enough to regularly (at least once a month) visit the temple AND still welcomed into her home a young gay man at no cost to him (feeding and housing him) but in loving kindness because that is what he needed and her savior demands of her.
    I left not even because of judgmental people like yourself but because I did not believe the Book of Mormon to have been authored by God but by man.

  • re: Jason
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    "I have never heard any LDS leader ever say that. I have never heard a disparaging remark about a LGBT from an LDS leader."


    Start with chapter 6 of Miracle of Forgiveness. Move on to "To the One" by Boyd K Packer.

  • re: Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:43 p.m.


    "I am willing to reach out with love to all church members."


    How gracious, John

  • Beverly
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:42 p.m.

    To irony? hypocrasy,

    It sounds like you would like to build a NAZI CAMP. I hate people who are closed minded bigots. What you don't realize is that everyone (INCLUDING LSD) have minds of their own, and we all see things just a bit different then the next guy. Hopefully, you are not a leader of ANYTHING! people like you are scary. Just as Hitler was.

  • James
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:40 p.m.

    Nine pages of comments, frankly this is a little funny. if you are on page 6 good luck anyone reading anything you have said. I just wanted to see if we could make it to 10.

  • re: same ole, same ole
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:37 p.m.


    "Personally I am glad to see the line drawn a little clearer about who is willing to stand where in the fight for right and wrong though."

    What a stupid comment.

  • irony? hypocrasy?
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    "I am hoping the church soon cleans out Gaile and the other apostates. We have no need of them. Maybe I am too harsh. However, people who glorify in building division are out of whack. People who still work with people who have openly vilified the church have issues. People who find common cause with those who accuse President Monson of being a hypocrite, on the issue where that accusation is lobbed, are really standing on shaky ground."

    Am I the only one that sees the irony if not in this paragraph? I think it is a pretty good summation of how John Pack Lambert thinks though. How is saying people that build division are out of whack and also stating the church should clean out Gaile and other apostates as well as stating that people that disagree with the church have issues not being divisive?

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    TO Mary,
    On the one hand I have to say this is a discussion board not a blog. You can go elsewhere on the internet and start a blog where you can write about the MMM to your hears desire and not be restricted at all in what you say, and only allow other comments from people who agree.
    I have a blog called Mormoninmichigan where I do such a thing, just not on the MMM.
    Secondly, there have in the past been articles in the DN on the MMM. I remember one where people complained it was an insult that President Hinckley did not come himself to the 150th anniversary commemoration but instead sent lowly Elder Eyring. When Elder Eyring was called as a member of the FP less than a month latter, I hoped some people learned a lesson, but I have come to realize somepeople will gripe at anything.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:03 p.m.

    To Linda J,
    Did they really say that the donations to their cause were tax deductable? And all this time people have been saying that it was unfair for the church to put tax-deductible money in the fight when the anti-8 people couln't. Yet for some reason when the ProtectMarriage people sent me to official notice on my $35 donation, they said it is not at all tax deductible.
    Very, very interesting. How can they ask to remove our tax deductible status when their tax-free entities are so much more involved in the fight?

  • @tom
    Dec. 8, 2008 4:02 p.m.

    it a hoot alright thats what it is! lol

  • Tim
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:57 p.m.

    This blog is a hoot!

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:55 p.m.

    To the 3:58 commentator,
    While your logic would make sense, the way Tom phrased his post it is almost 100% clear that he is not married to his aleged "boyfriend".
    In fact, having dealt with people who get joy out of making other people mad and uncomfortable, I would not be surprised if Tom has no boyfriend at all. He probably tried a more explicit post, and when that did not work settled for a moderate one that would go through.
    I also wish the moderator would stop allowing deliberately provocative posts like the one Tom made.

  • Jonny
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:52 p.m.

    Is this the hour of LAMBERT?

    Those fingers of yours must get pretty tired and sore typing all day long to those you disagree with.

    I was wondering how I might find blog job too?

  • Whatagasbag
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:52 p.m.

    To: John Pack Lambert

    Suggest you get a life and seek major intensive therapy.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:50 p.m.

    To the 3:51 commentator,
    The Becket Fund is a real organization that has existed for well over a decade. It is involved in a broad array of litigation in favor of religious freedom. It has defended the rights of Sikhs to build temples in California and Jews to build synogogues in Pennsylvania and of Churchs to let homoeless people sleep on their door steps along Fifith Avenue in New York City.
    The idea that the Church is "behind this ad" is just 100% ludicrous.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:46 p.m.

    To the 3:28 commentator,
    What scares me even more is when a business is boycotted because the Church the owner belongs to urged its members in another state to support a certain cause. Should people boycott Catholic owned businesses in California because the Catholic Church urged its members in Michigan to vote against legalizing embryonic stem-cell research?

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:43 p.m.

    TO the 4:39 commentator,
    You are right. I once read a comment by someone saying he looked forward to when he could marry in our temple, just so he could gloat about being able to do it and taunt us by having achieved that.
    Since this guy obviously had no clue what goes on with marrying in temples, I do not see it as a real threat. However, I think making the church pay taxes on the temples and banning missionaries on the grounds that they spread hate are very possible results if Prop 8 is overturned. The latter is especially true considering how many people on the LA Times page I saw insist that the ad showing missionaries ransacking a Lesbian couples home and tearing up their marriage certificate was showing something that actually happened. I wonder how many years in prison each of those missionaries got for home invasion?

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:37 p.m.

    To R,
    I have a strong suspicion that your reading or watching "The God Makers" moved you on the path to apostasy. "Temple Going Mormon" is a bizarre term designed to divide over something that is supposed to unify that comes out of the destructive rhetoric of Ed Decker.
    I wish the moderators would place a ban on all posts with terms drawn from "The God Makers" especially a term that refers to an item meant to cover a window that is dividing the place of the people of one heart from those elsewhere.

  • Chuck
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:37 p.m.

    John Pack, We missed having Coffee together this morning....shucks!

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    To the 8:22 commentator,
    I am not sure if I should be saddened or laugh at your comments. If you think that Focus on the family is a Mormon dominated group you are really out of touch.
    To the 10:20 commentaotr,
    Well, are you suprised that someone who posts under the name of Our Lord commits other Sacrilege? In Acts the name Jesus once appears when they are actually talking about the man who lead Israel in the time of the Battle of Jericho, ben means son of and even though it is not biologically correct, since Mary was married to Joseph this would be the recognized sonship of our Lord according to his contemporaries.
    OK, maybe on its own my accusation of sacrilege with that name is a bit much, but considering what else the commentator said, I have would not be surprised if he was committing sacrilege from the first letter he typed.

  • Beth
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    I agree 3:16

    What's the use of working for anything in this life if there is only evil, hurt, pain, murders and thieves, sexual corruption etc, in the next life? It certainly doesn't give a person much hope if we are just going to end up in a eternal hell called heaven.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    To Mr. 11:56,
    It is you who are the one who expresses hate. The worst disdain I have seen on this board is the disdain you show towards those who have turned to Christ and overcome their weakness, or maybe even repented from a grevious sin.
    You, Mr. 11:56, are the one who does not believe the words of Christ. You are like the Pharisees, not accepting that the power of Christ can heal all sinners. You think you are better, because you assume that Christ can heal all sins, and since you will not accept he can heal the homosexual, you say it can not be a sin.
    Well, you are wrong. Christ can heal all sins. No sinner is so deparved that he can not feel the love and outreach of Christ. Maybe I am too slow to recognize that Christ can heal the intelectual rebel. However, you deney that Christ can heal the person who has committed sexual sins with one of the same sex, and have the extreme contempt towards those who have come back and recovered from such afflictions to the point of mocking them. That is just sickening.

  • re:CP
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    Please get a clue. Love one another was one thing that Christ said. I believe he mentioned repentance a time or two. If there is no sins then why mention repentance?

    Love the sinner HATE the sin. It is really not that difficult.

    The commandment was to "sin no more".

    If you go with that then all you have to do is determine what a sin is which is obvious if you have read the scriptures. Gay behavior makes it near top of the list.

    GLBT prefer to read only "select" sections of scripture though so they can overemphasize one part of the gospel while blatantly ignoring what is also mentioned so they can continue their behavior.

    Am I saying the rest of us are without sin? Of course not--far from it but the difference is that I don't expect my sinful behavior should be approved/endorsed/legalized by everyone just because I choose to ignore what the Savior said about it.

    Whatever happened to calling a spade a spade. The liberal agenda of political correctness has a purpose. Now it is not PC to say what used to obviously wrong to most all. We can't hurt feelings now can we!! PLEEEEZ!!

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    To the 11:56 commentator,
    I take major objection to your assumption that anyone who has overcome same-gender attraction can not legitimately speak out against it as an unwise thing to pursue.
    Would you call a recovered alchoholic a hypocrite for advocating tougher laws against drunk driving? Not a very good analogy, but my point is that those who have dealt with and overcome issues are the most qualified to speak on them.
    I am still unsure if those who had same-gender attraction and never gave in or those who had sunk deep into the abyss of homosexual actions and turned to Christ and through his atoning gift came out are better able to speak out on the issue.
    I think they both can give us perspective and understanding. However, Mr. 11:56, it is the downright hate and bigotry you show against the recovered homosexual, acting as if they have not expreienced the change of heart that they have, that causes them to not speak out at all. You accuse the people who hold to the teachings of the Church of being bigots. More.

  • re Joshua ben Joseph
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    re Matt. 23:13
    I hope heaven is shut for murderers, thieves, sinners etc,

    or else what is the point of having a heaven & a hell.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:15 p.m.

    To 10:33 and 10:21 and whoever else,
    Well, it seems spell check can not save you. Some words are spelled more than one way, so you can still make mistakes with it.
    I really liked the Chistmas devotional. No mention of same-gender marriage at all. So much for the Church having been "Turned into a political party". Of course, I guess it is too much to hope that the hate mongers will let reality cramp their style.
    I am willing to reach out with love to all church members. However when people start quoting the Doctrine and Covenants and claim the First Presidency is in violation of it, I really do think that it could not hurt if church leaders called them to a disciplinary counsel. If it was someone I knew, I probably would try to speak with them and show them the error of their logic, but when it is people who are so convinced of it to use it as an attack on the leaders of the church in a public forum, it is at least a first step on the road to apostasy.

  • Mary
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:11 p.m.

    Hello? Where is the Meadows Massacre blog? I have a lot to spew on that one. The church had a right to be paranoid with the hostile wagon train. Where's the comment section on this one, Mr Lambert?

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:06 p.m.

    To the 9:38 commentator and to the moderators,
    I think we can not just make a blanket request to ban all anti-Mormon statements.
    I have an idea. Can we implement a policy of banning false accusations against Joseph Smith from the boards connected with articles that have 0 mentions of Joseph Smith.
    Also, can we have a ban on the r word that is used to insult people.
    Also, I think the ban on profanity needs to be more closely enforced.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 3:02 p.m.

    To follow up on the 9:18 commentator,
    The issue that disturbes me is that participation in elections should not put people's jobs in jeopardy.
    It has gotten worse. Some people have called for a boycott on all Mormon run businesses. To put pressure on a business to fire someone just because of what religion they are violates the spirit of freedom of religion.

  • Mouse House
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:58 p.m.

    Hey, JOHN PACK LAMBERT,
    Good to see you onhere again. Some of us were wondering where you had taken off too??? We need your input, it makes for a better blog.

    Your comment was good, and I agree with you whole heartily. You said it better then any of us.....Thanks my friend.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:57 p.m.

    Mountain Meadows had nothing to do with marriage. It was the result of people who were afraid that they would be killed, their wives raped, their homes burned and so forth. It was war time hysteria, and not defensible.
    However there were no federal laws against polygamy until 1862 (or maybe 1863) and Mountain Meadows Massacre was 1857, so it was not an issue of polygamy.
    Beyond this the church never sought laws that would give government approval to polygamy, they only opposed laws that would criminalize it. Thus the same-gender marriage analogy is built around ignorance and misinformation. No one is going to jail because of Proposition 8.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:52 p.m.

    Maybe my expression of hope the apostates will be cleaned out was a bit harsh.
    However, I am sick and tired of people calling the First Preisdency "Morally bankrupt". I think it is wrong to side with those who would cause people to loose their jobs for following the direction of the First Presidency.
    When did it people OK to shout "Mormon Scum".
    Voting against Prop 8 is one think. Actively working against it, and choosing to feel a divide in your ward over it are two things that indicate you have no desire to build Zion.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    To the people asking for evidence,
    Well Bash Back has claimed responsibility for vandalizing an LDS Chapel in Olympia. So there is the evidence connecting gay activists to the violence.
    I am hoping the church soon cleans out Gaile and the other apostates. We have no need of them. Maybe I am too harsh. However, people who glorify in building division are out of whack. People who still work with people who have openly vilified the church have issues. People who find common cause with those who accuse President Monson of being a hypocrite, on the issue where that accusation is lobbed, are really standing on shaky ground.

  • dfasB
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:46 p.m.

    How can you be loving with gay people if their whole intent is to seduce you for be friending them. They are always looking for a victim to draw into the perverted life style. Give me a flippen break, man.

  • Thomas Pain
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:43 p.m.

    I'm sick of the mob mentality that is against prop 8. Protesters are full of hate as they accuse peaceful actions as "hate".

  • AL
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    to CP: Loving one another doesn't mean that you have to let them do whatever they want. it doesn't mean that you have to agree with whatever they do. actions of others affect more than just themselves, for good or bad.

  • alden
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:28 p.m.

    so it's ok for a group of churches and members to intimidate each other and the rest of society into "preserving" the sanctity of heterosexual marriage with abhorrent divorce, adultry, and abuse rates to carry on mobocracy with a 52-48% vote, but when the homosexuals decide to take on the same "mob" mentality they are decried as evil incarnate. Pot, meet kettle.

  • Jason1
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    The desire to have their (the LGBT) relationships "celebrated" by society stems from negative experiences from family and friends when they came out of the closet. I am not arguing that we support their lifestyle. However we need to be loving towards them, even if they will despise us for our beliefs. We needn't support their lifestyle, but we can try to support them in other ways such as showing them that we're willing to serve them indiscriminately.
    Now on Prop 8, I noticed that many within the LGBT have a very different and aberrated perspective on human sexuality. For instance although all the studies indicate that the happiest people are those who are in longterm, monogamous relationships there was a man who was "polyamorous." This is basically just an intellectual word to mean that he's in a relationships with several people at the same time. No offense to the LGBT, but I see a lot of confusion, instability, sin and unhappiness stemming from allowing the LGBT movement to to be lead our (the majority's) opinions/perspectives regarding human sexuality.

  • Yep, to Free Agency
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:13 p.m.

    Please go form a gay religion, and get the heck out of the faces of all other religions who do not support gay rights. Move along now, with you hate, and your bigotry. We will survive well without you people and your sick perversions. however, You gays will not survive, because you will never have a POSTERITY!

  • Same ole same ole...
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:08 p.m.

    ....from the gay community. Its our way or no way and if you don't agree we will vandalize, threaten, and spew religous hatred.

    Very impressive. Talk about low-life.

    Personally I am glad to see the line drawn a little clearer about who is willing to stand where in the fight for right and wrong though.

    There is more than one person who predicted this in the latter days and the people who stand for right know what I am referring to. The people who don't know are too busily engaged in their self-gratifying and base behavior to figure it out.

    It is sexual preference 24/7 with these people. There is absolutely zero balance in their lives--completely myopic in their drive to gain acceptance for their aberrant behavior.

    News flash, even if it was legalized it was still be aberrant and WRONG and you would still feel the same guilt you do now!! A law won't change that.


    Go get some help.

  • Jason
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    I am 100% Mormon. Being homosexual is not a sin! I can never fully understand homosexuality because I am not gay. I am just very grateful I'm not gay because whatever the cause is, it would be very difficult to deal with. I have never heard any LDS leader ever say that. I have never heard a disparaging remark about a LGBT from an LDS leader. We believe homosexual acts are a sin; however we are quick to acknowledge the difference between a sin and the person committing the sin. Condemn the sin, not the sinner.
    I am a student at the U of U. A couple weeks ago a LGBT panel came and spoke to us. I am very much pro prop 8 especially after the panel. We all spoke respectfully towards each other. I learned from the panel. I don't feel angry nor hatred towards them. However I realized that marriage to them is very different than what it is to us. One of them defined it as a "public celebration of a partnership." The reason this is such a big deal to LBGT is because they want acceptance in the eyes of society.

  • Boyd
    Dec. 8, 2008 1:41 p.m.

    FreeAgent: Well, I guess we can just be glad to know that you had no empathy in the first place. If you want to see true empathy, check out the comment just before yours from CP.

  • Jason M
    Dec. 8, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    A couple more thoughts for those who question the LDS church's motives... Just my opinion here but I believe the reason the church became so vocal regarding this issue has less to do with caring whether or not two people can get married and more to do with protecting itself from discrimination lawsuits. Mark my words, the day is coming when someone sues the church for not allowing homosexuals the same temple marriage they offer heterosexual couples. I know, it sounds out there... but who would have guess that a gay couple would sue a heterosexual matchmaking service not not offering service to them. Rather than serch out a service for gays, or have enough business savy to maybe see an opportunity and start one, they would rather try and force another business to conform to what they want and if they don't, they will see you in court. Again, this is just my opinion and is in no way meant to represent that actual motives behind why the church took such a vocal stand on this issue.

  • to cp
    Dec. 8, 2008 1:08 p.m.

    How did Jesus act towards the money changers in the temple? Did he say "love one another" then?

  • Boyd
    Dec. 8, 2008 1:06 p.m.

    Wow ... a large amount of people commenting on this story must be crazy. Violence? Mob rule? Thugs?

    This isn't some episode of "The Sopranos". Aside from some property damage and the stupid white powder incidents (both of which should be investigated and those responsible charged), there has been very little going on. Much of the criticism has been from the LDS Church itself, feeling unfairly attacked in spite of donating a large portion of the monies to the "Yes on 8" movement. Gay groups have mostly already moved on, working within the law to challenge Prop. 8's legality.

  • FreeAgent
    Dec. 8, 2008 12:52 p.m.

    Where does the gay-marriage movement get the "hate" from--I have heard no hate coming from the LDS Church, but news flash--mmembers of the LDS Church are also citizens and have a right to vote and enjoy freedom of speech. The gay-marriage movement is the group spreading hate, which of course is using THEIR freedom of speech in a destructive manner. Who are they trying to convince rhat they are being mistreated when they spew hatred and venom. If I had ever had any empathy toward the gay-marriage movement, it would be out the window now because of the behavior of some who seem to get the publicity.

  • CP
    Dec. 8, 2008 12:50 p.m.

    I'm an active Mormon. I could give hoot if a man and a man or woman and woman marry. It does not redefine how I see marriage. They can have their definition of happiness and I will have mine. If they are my next door neighbor I will graciously love them as Christ asks us to. I will let my kids play with theirs. I will be their friend. Have we forgotten one of Christ's biggest teachings? Love one another.

  • The nation is mobilizing
    Dec. 8, 2008 12:00 p.m.

    The more those against Prop 8 protest, and boycott, and spread their hate agenda the more they look bad. So go ahead! Your violence and your bigotry can never be justified. Truth and right will prevail over these mob tactics. You think the end you want justifies the means you take, but you are wrong. Those in the wrong often have clouded judgement though. Cooler heads are prevailing. Your means will not bring about the end you want, but rather an end to your hate agenda.

    People of faith united to vote their conscience on Prop 8. They are welcome to their opinion. If you seek to force your opinion on the majority, it will unite against you. But because the right side on this issue is not for hatred, for violence, or protesting human rights (such as voting), it will only get stronger as your immoral actions increase against us. All you have done is help the cause for right. Thanks!

  • Bob
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:57 a.m.

    No one has anything to PROVE to any bigot gay. If you don't like things the way they are-then go start your own gay church and leave all other religions alone! None have asked you to butt-in and change our status and views on marriage between a man and a woman. So please go away and take you hate with you. We are just fine without you.

  • Prove
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    To all of you who say that this and other articles were paid for by the church - give me and others your facts about this - or shut up! This gets very tireing... If you have prove then show it...

    I don't believe the church did this. But, I am willing to learn something new. Show me the prove and then I will believe you....

  • John
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:17 a.m.

    Prop 8 did NOT eliminate rights for homosexual couples in California it just confirmed the DEFINITION of marriage as between a man and woman. Civil Unions/Domestic Partners still have the same rights as hetersexual married couples. So this was NOT a civil rights issue but one of the activist homosexual community trying to infringe on/or eliminate the religious aspect of marriage. Also where is the outcry from the homosexual community with respect to the other two states that passed propositions confirming the definition of marriage?

  • Basement writer
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:16 a.m.

    This is all about Constitutional law and how it is made, according to the framers of the Constitution. When you want to amend the Constitution, you amend by vote. Using judges instead of a Constitutional VOTE is a back door to "get things done", and is WRONG and tyrannical. The majority of California can see what damage this (rule by judges) will do to our country's rights and liberties. I can see it, too. Those who advocate judicial tyranny obviously don't care.

  • ploughjogger410
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:15 a.m.

    We live in a Democracy. We vote on stuff expecting some of us not to get our way. The GLTS community is not being killed, as in Nazi Germany. They have simply been told that the rest of us, thankfully the majority, want to keep one of the most sacred acts we do, i.e., getting married, a sacred act. But it' much more than a "tradtion". It makes practical sense, even beyond the much greater incidence of STD's and HIV.

    Gay couples who adopt are 67% more likely to get divorced than straight couples. Lesbian couples who adopt are 200%!!! more likely to divorce, according to a massive study in Sweden. We all know how horrible the effects of divorce are. On top of the societal, self esteem and lifestyle challenges these adopted kids face, we are also giving them much greatert likelihood of being brought up in a broken family.

    So also practically, psychologically and emotionally, the act of gay marriage is destructive to our country's populus.

    Prop 8 didn't outlaw being gay, just that gay people can't share the term "marriage" with us straight people. Big deal! You people are smart. Figure out another word for it!

  • Lucky gal with real man
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:08 a.m.

    The bigot gays need to get out of town if they don't like the beliefs of religious people. They need to learn to mind their own business and quit trying to corrupt the world with their funny business. Who needs them...NOBODY!

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 8, 2008 11:03 a.m.

    This doesn't prove anything except that there are wealthy Mormons who are willing to continue their bigotry by taking out an expensive ad in the New York Times trying to get other bigoted Mormons to be PROUD of their bigotry!

    Why be proud of something so deplorable? You people are worse than the Taliban!

  • re: Vince
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:55 a.m.

    Sorry but I am old nough to remember what happened in Hawaii when the gay's were allowed to marry there. That is exactlly what the gays there tried to do - and then tried to chose the church down because they would not permit it.

    We learn lessons from history - just as we will remember the actions of the gay community when the next time this comes up for vote.

  • James
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:55 a.m.

    The biggest irony of all is that the LDS Church is concerned about the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman. The media publicity blitz of the past 18 years by the LDS Church trying to rewrite history is shameful. Are they interesting in saving souls or stealing them?

  • The devils tools
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:42 a.m.

    Ellen Degenress and Hollywood are both no longer allowed in my home. They are perverting the world.

  • lindaj
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:40 a.m.

    I also do not have time to read all of the responses, but wish I could. However, read this one. Regarding the original article, there is another terrible onslaught to the LDS Church which has not yet received much attention. In the Gay/Lesbian Southern California Newsletter, called the Vanguard, the editors of this publication are urging their people to donate to to overturn Prop. 8. They state and I quote: "For every tax-deductable donation of $5 or more, the Center will send a postcard to Mormon Church President Thomas Monson, informing him a donation was made in his name to support efforts to overturn Prop. 8." I find this a shameful attack to humiliate the Church. I heard that about 2,000 cards have already been sent. However, seeing the response of so many individuals and organizations in support of the Church, this latest tactic may be a good thing.

  • WHINNERS.....
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:17 a.m.

    Some people on here need remember which sex they were born to be and why? And get over yourselves.

  • marriage
    Dec. 8, 2008 10:14 a.m.

    Homosexuals are incapable of consummating a marriage. It is as simple as that. I would agree that Homosexuals deserve a contract that legally protects their interests but that marriage is not the appropriate contract since it covers very specific issues.

  • To bigotry in the name of God
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    The only difference is that you are bigoted in the name of sex, attempting to legitimize high risk behavior with the time honored word "marriage." For the record, I am not LDS and do not practice any religion. To me it comes down to science.

  • Disco
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:34 a.m.

    The "left" allows preaches tollerance and love...until they have to actually succcumb it. Boy, how the worm has turned...it's about time.

    Never estimate the power of God, just ask all those tollerant loving, "everyone,s a winner," "make love not war" citizens of Sodom & Gomorha, they found out real fast who was right.

    The No on 8 crowd better start thanking the Yes on 8 saviors, because that what they now are...to all of you....Hello??!!

  • another another comment
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    I better do one more comment for good luck. I love you.

  • David in New York
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:17 a.m.

    One should wage political war in a political arena, not on the streets. The LGBT community has only hurt their cause by acting out violently. They need public support. How can the public support this violent behavior? Greater political efforts and money should have been spent to support their cause before the vote in November.

  • HSFAN
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:14 a.m.

    GBLT has back the GM cause 30 years......never will Gay Marriage be tolerated in America with these thugs!

  • stop this!
    Dec. 8, 2008 9:07 a.m.

    It's time men act like MEN and women act like WOMEN! Stop playing these silly games!!! You are who you are, and made the way you are, because GOD planned it that way.

  • Bigotry in the name of God
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:55 a.m.

    I suppose you think that Rosa Parks was an uppity "sore loser" too--just like gays are. This is not about a fotball game or voice of the people by "popular vote." This is about basic human rights. You bet we are angry and WE TOO SHALL OVERCOME. Blacks had to keep on fighting and so will we.

  • Jason M
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:48 a.m.

    What this really come down to is whether or not society is going to tolerate alternative lifestyles. The homosexual community should not kid themselves. Government decides everyday what two consenting adults can and can not do, period! Two consenting adults cant do drugs, engage in prostitution, etc. Those lifestyle choices fall outside the bounds of what most people are willing to accept in our society. Because you calim your lifestyle in the name of love doesn't mean that your civil rights have been violated.

    So the religious voice in this country, maybe particularly the Mormons, stood up and said we don't agree. That is thier right in this country just as if they had said we don't accept prostitution. Perhpas thier message just resonated with voters more than the alternative lifestyle.

  • Ed Clinch
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    I don't have time to read all 368 comments but would love to. The LDS have never advocated intimidation or violence of any other lifestyles; we do take a stand at moral issues, and same sex marriage is one of them.

    We do not believe same gender marriage is moral, just as many westerners do not believe plural marriage is legal or moral.

    We all vote our conscience, but we try not to be arrogant or tolerant of violence towards anyone.

  • I GET IT!
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:24 a.m.

    Thank You Gay Community for teaching me about your brand of democracy.

    I voted for John McCain but Barack Obama got over 52% of the vote like Prop. 8 did.

    I must now protest all offices of the DNC. Stage rallies against every group that supports the democrat party and threaten their most active supporters.

    Finally, I will try to get the courts to reverse outcome of the election. Do you give independent study courses of your tactics?

  • R
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:23 a.m.

    Gay marriage would not impact individual marriages, but it would impact overall marriage.

    Another reality is that children raised in gay marriage are more likely to experiment with homosexual relationships and are more promiscuous based on studies. This in turn will unfortunately bring about more std including AIDS/HIV especially since gay sex is the NUMBER 1 risk factor for the disease and a primary exclusion question for donating blood. In other words, if gay sex was like typical straight sex, why are those that participate excluded from blood donation? OH, I know. It isn't about sin (I'm agnostic anyway) it is a biological outlier that has negative consequences including the termination of the species. Two other exclusion question include i.v. drug use and sex with prostitutes. I suppose we could be like Holland and legalize those as well, but wait, it seems that Holland realizes the issues and is closing that down.

  • scholar
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:15 a.m.

    Some of the comments made by my fellow LDS members here are arrogant and unbecoming a member of the Church.

    Remember who we are, and treat those with differing opinions with the repsect they are due as children of God.

    We may disagree, but we don't need to be arrogant.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 8, 2008 8:13 a.m.

    Step out into the WORLD and express your views while stepping on peoples toes, as well as thier own views, of course, then.. one should expect to be stepped on, themselves. Stay out of the politics and the heat that it involves, if you cant take the heat of the oven...

  • Concerned Parent
    Dec. 8, 2008 6:48 a.m.

    All religions' moral voices and political rhetoric aside, as a father why should or would I EVER vote in support of any life-style[s] that would tend to abbreviate or cut short the life span of any of my children (i.e. my sons)...

  • Vince
    Dec. 8, 2008 2:11 a.m.

    SS | 11:28 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008

    This is quite different, SS.

    I am not espousing hate or animosity.

    But I am espousing a revisitation of the facts.

    Take a look back at Prop 22, when it passed --- gays did not have the right to marry, so it was no loss.

    It was more like going on to find the ultimate goal of gay marriage.

    Finally, when it happened, then it was taken away, by a campaign largely sponsored by a group who has roots in Utah --- do you see why they would place their target there.

    Surveys show that a lot of people, after the fact, were confused at the poll with Prop 8.

    What staunch "Yes on 8" supporters propose is that, the election is over, get on with your lives, it is lost. And they want the gays to give up.

    Many of us have been awaiting for this --- and it is suddenly yanked.

    The reason for the confusion at the polls --- because of the campaigning, many equated marriage with the religious implications even though they had no intention on targeting a minority group and depriving them of a right given by courts

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 8, 2008 12:08 a.m.

    Can anyone tell me what those against prop 8 expected the religious community to do?

    Did you think that religions would just move aside and let the C. S. Court dictate US morals?

    Do you think that millennia of religious teachings would just be ignored?

    That religious people would forgo their right to vote?

    That a blatant attack on traditional marriage would be over looked?

    Christ taught his followers to go into the world teaching repentance, to have no tolerance of sin. Christ did not cast a stone at the adulteress, but he also did not forgive her, and commanded her to sin no more.

    You may call this hate, or bigotry, but it remains a fundamental part of Christianity.

    Religious people must fight immoral activity. They must use their voice to protect gods will. They must go on record as voting against such things whether in an election or in life. They will be expected to answer to god otherwise.

    If same sex marriage becomes legal, those who on principle fought this fight will be able to stand before god and say they stood on his side.

    To give in or remain silent would be rejecting Christ.

  • Scott in Vegas
    Dec. 7, 2008 11:57 p.m.

    Gays hating LDS for their moral stand?....just another day at the office...(Looong yaaawn.)

  • JA
    Dec. 7, 2008 11:40 p.m.

    Yep, gays posting as Mormons just like the FLDS pose as women. Messed up people!

  • Nice try, BUT...
    Dec. 7, 2008 11:33 p.m.

    Re: Embarrassed Mormon,
    Oh come on, man! You are no kind of a Mormon, so quit trying to fool the rest of us on here with your phony baloney.... No way man!

  • SS
    Dec. 7, 2008 11:28 p.m.

    Why is it "gays vs Mormons" anyway? Didn't 53% of voters in California vote for this thing? Didn't similar measures pass by even bigger margins in other states?

    Why aren't the angry gay rights folks posting on boards read by blacks, hispanics, Catholics, Baptists and other groups?

    Mormons, don't take the bait on this. It will blow over. No need to get pulled into a rancorous argument that we have little/no influence over anyway (Prop 8 would have passed with or without the LDS and is now a done deal).

    Gays, don't be manipulated by the hateful anti-Mormons. These are the most unhappy people on the planet and couldn't care less about you and your cause. They were founded by Missouri rednecks and have no purpose in life except to drag everyone else down to their level. As soon as they're through using you, they'll turn on you like they do everyone else.

  • Embarrassed Mormon
    Dec. 7, 2008 11:21 p.m.

    I have to admit that as I read many of these comments I am embarrssed by the comments and vitriole of some of my fellow church members. Christ's example was one of effecting change through peace, love, meekness, kindless, forgiving, etc. If we want to long-term results, this is the only way we will get it. Otherwise I have to agree with many of the commenters that Mormons seem to be looking for a cause and a fight as much as anybody, which is a sad commentary on what we have become after all we have been through.

  • John 9:47
    Dec. 7, 2008 10:56 p.m.

    The LDS church is growing so fast outside of US territory any problems it faces in the US is padded. And truth is this article shows the LDS church has unexpected allies in the US. People who do not like the old, traditional ways of the LDS church will reject it. But as other religions succumb to immoral pressures their more traditional followers will move into LDS support and membership. In the end this will boost its membership and influence. The worst thing the LDS church could do would be to be quiet on the moral issues we face. Mobs ran the LDS church out of the US, killed its first prophet and brother, has spread lies and hate about them for nearly two centuries and still it survives and grows stronger. To the point even that you blame it for the passing of prop 8. These moral battles only strengthen its membership and weeds out the weak. The greater the wind it pushes against the stronger the legs it builds.

  • patriot
    Dec. 7, 2008 10:49 p.m.

    Here are some quotes from some of the most respected voices in our nation's history to consider as you mull over the ideas of rights and personal freedoms that are being discussed in this forum:

    We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of the governmentfar from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.--James Madison (often referred to as the father of the Constitution)

    We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion.--John Adams

    I thank God that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her independence and freedom if she will. It depends upon her virtue.--Samuel Adams (Often referred to as the father of the American Revolution)

    If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny and every species of religious persecution.--George Washington

  • D Rock
    Dec. 7, 2008 10:07 p.m.

    The LDS church and it's members have been attacked; verbally and violently since the restoration, so what's new? Church officials and members have turned the other cheek; time and time again and will continue to do so. It's very commendable of the Beckett Fund to have the LDS Church's back at this time.

  • John
    Dec. 7, 2008 9:47 p.m.

    To: "Scott M. | 8:39 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008"

    You're right, we gays will not stop the LDS Church. You are doing a good enough job yourselves.

  • CTR
    Dec. 7, 2008 9:23 p.m.

    Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve. The vote has been cast and marriage won. Get over it sore looooseerrs.

  • Hyprocacy
    Dec. 7, 2008 9:09 p.m.

    That's the folks asking for tolerance while being violently intolerant!

  • No. Utah Davie
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:52 p.m.

    Loving other as a tenant, thats a good one! I see very much contention and distain within in a wards I have attended, not mention the attitude toward non-members. This is not taken seriously within the Chruch, lets be serious.

  • Scott M.
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:39 p.m.

    Knee bitters annoy but the caravan moves on. You gays are rediculious but will not stop the growth or presence of the LDS Church.

  • To "bgubler", 6PM, Dec 5th
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:37 p.m.

    "bgubler | 6:00 p.m. Dec. 5, 2008
    I wondered how long it would take the LDS and Mormons to grab the victim role. Mormon's don't practice there religious fundamental doctrine regarding marriage. When a step towards a legal change that would step towards to a legal practice as to second sealing in DC Section 132 (polygamy) . One doctrine that is not currently practiced because of the law of the land. But claim to a necessary sacrament for Mormons to reach their highest level in heaven."

    Nice try, "bgubler".

    But wrong. Again.

    The LDS church does not now, nor has it ever, nor will it ever, teach that in order for a man or a woman to be exalted in the highest degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, that one MUST enter into a polygamous relationship.

    So what does exaltation require?

    - Faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

    - Repentance.

    - Baptism by immersion by one who has authority from God to do this act.

    - The receiving of the Holy Ghost.

    - A marriage "for time and eternity" performed in the Lord's temple by Priesthood authority.

    - Continual obedience to God, which is, primarily, loving others.

  • RE: Adam and Eve
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:28 p.m.

    I can't speak for Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve.

    But hey, Roger and Dan were good boyfriends.

    John.

  • human
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:22 p.m.

    Joyce:
    I have worked for a number of Humanitarian org.s over the years---all funded by smart corporations who know how to make a good business deal so they can support more humanitarian projects. I'm certain the LDS Church Corporation will make far more money on the mall deal than they spend. And those profits will help feed the world. By focusing on their own selfish wants, the radical gays are forgetting that 2/3s of the world lives in want. Who cares about prop 8? LDS send out half a billion dollars a year to impoverished communities. How about getting the Gay Community and the Becket group to match the LDS Humanitarian effort. Maybe working together on something would end all this mote and beam stuff and refocus this energy on True Religion. I guarantee one summer spent in a Ugandan orphanage and you won't care who lives with whom or who or whatever. The people voted, now the people have to move on. Peace to my Gay friends and Peace to the Mormon church.

  • anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:21 p.m.

    Legalizing marriage for gays will not make it right. It is wrong. The Lord will not approve such a lifestyle even if the law allows it. The LDS church has an opinion, the gays have an opinion. The two are never going to agree. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Children have a right to be raised in a home with a father and a mother whenever possible. Sex outside of marriage is wrong. These are true principles. Satan's power in the world is evident by the many comments on both sides of this issue which demonstrate hate instead of love. Satan knows that if he destroys the family, he will destroy society. The truth will prevail, the righteous will win the war. No amount of mob violence will stop the work of the Lord from going forth among all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples. The day will come when all will confess that Jesus is the Christ.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    "Now opposed to LDS | 7:35 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008
    I don't care how many Christian Right friends give the LDS church kudos for spending millions on their gay pogrom -- I went from completely neutral on the LDS organization to being a vociferous opponent. The LDS is a dangerous corporate organization that exists freely only by the very constitution they paid to change to hurt a fellow minority. I think they're unChristian, unChristlike, and, to be sure, not Christians at all. I will not ever, ever forgive the LDS."

    OK, don't forgive us; first, we've done nothing wrong. Second, your anger will hurt no one but yourself. In the end you will not relish the consequences of your anger.

    The caravan moves on!

  • re: Kayle Martin
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:17 p.m.

    I really get tired with people like you describing me! What color or hair do I have? Am I thin/fat? Am I tall/short???? Come on you seem to think that you know me so well...
    As a young girl I went to several different churches - and as an adult I have also gone to several different churches. I have studied many different religions Christian and other wise.
    As a missionary I got to know different perople with different ideas ... I AM NOT a blind sheep!!! I have been to college ... I know how to read and think and discuss and pray!
    I am sorry that you felt a need to leave the church (if in fact you were ever really in it). But, I am in for the long haul! I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that Thomas S Monson is a living prophet of God today. You trying to pass judgement on a people as a whole just shows you for not a very nice person at all. I would rethink that if I were you.

  • Now opposed to LDS
    Dec. 7, 2008 7:35 p.m.

    I don't care how many Christian Right friends give the LDS church kudos for spending millions on their gay pogrom -- I went from completely neutral on the LDS organization to being a vociferous opponent. The LDS is a dangerous corporate organization that exists freely only by the very constitution they paid to change to hurt a fellow minority. I think they're unChristian, unChristlike, and, to be sure, not Christians at all. I will not ever, ever forgive the LDS.

  • Steve
    Dec. 7, 2008 7:34 p.m.

    If the LDS Church loses its tax exempt status for exercising its right to believe (and I assume other churches would fit into this situation as well), that is a clear violation of church and state and I, for one, would be willing to take up arms in a civil war to defend the first amendment.

    But I feel this is a far-fetched scenario and have yet to see a single gay rights poster on here asking for that. While I am not certain what it is they DO want from the LDS church, I'm fairly certain they do not wish to marry in our churches or temples or even belong to the church.

  • John
    Dec. 7, 2008 7:28 p.m.

    I live in Montana and last summer a couple of racists chased out a group of cambodians who were picking mushrooms. When a big portion of the community condemned the acts of the racists the racists did an amazing thing... they started to complain persecution and that their rights to be racists were being infringed upon by the intimidation of those who condemned their racists acts.

    To me this sounds kind of like the same thing. The religious folks work hard to take away the rights of a group of people and when people become outraged at their actions, the religious people start complaining of bigotry!

  • Vince
    Dec. 7, 2008 6:31 p.m.

    To Anonymous | 4:39 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008

    And while someone might ---

    some atheist might also want to sue the LDS Church for not marrying them in the Church/temple, etc.

    I am applying the same principle to both circumstances.

    And while you are in the right that someone might --- that someone will not win in Court.

    Churches do have the right to marry whom they will.

  • Seth
    Dec. 7, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    Iowa is the next in line. LDS stand up and look to Iowa. We must stand stong with Iowa and tow the rope. We are the chosen and will lead this to victory.

  • Larry Daines
    Dec. 7, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    Seems that reason and discussion have been abandoned by radicals for intimidation and selfish feelings.

  • Joyce
    Dec. 7, 2008 6:00 p.m.

    Hey a million plus based on billions that are bilked. Come on now. And oh yes how is that multi-billion dollar mall going to help the humanitarian effort. Thanks for playing.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:39 p.m.

    "We, as gays, do not want to marry in your temples, thank you very much or in your chappels or any other places of worship by your clergy."

    SOMEONE out there is going to want to. You can't speak for every single gay person, as I can't speak for every LDS person. But someday, someone will want to, and the church is going to lose tax exempt status. Do you know how much money the LDS church gives per day in humanitarian aid? On average over $1,000,000. That's going to be taxed. So is my tithing and fast offerings.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    Funny | 7:45 p.m. Dec. 6, 2008
    Funny how the only people who are closed minded and set in their ways are the religious right. Everyone else is really open minded to new ideas. As long as they are new ideas that they happen to agree with.

    The hypocrisy from the left is sickening
    **********
    Hypocrisy is considered wrong by those who believe in the teachings of Christ. Hence most adolescents learn that this can be a very powerful attack against their parents when they are trying to get what they want. However, it doesn't hold the same sway over someone who doesn't believe it's wrong to be a hippocrit if it gets them what they want.

  • Vince
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:17 p.m.

    To "Anonymous | 4:01 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008"

    you prove my point, exactly --- which I was trying to make.

    Gays will not be allowed to marry in the temple just in the same way that atheists and agnostics won't.

    We, as gays, do not want to marry in your temples, thank you very much or in your chappels or any other places of worship by your clergy.

    And no I'm not taking crazy pills ---

  • Kathryn
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:13 p.m.

    opinions kind of like facts | 7:45 p.m. Dec. 6, 2008
    While I believe the LDS church is right in their position I must say I loved your reference to green jello. I had to laugh.

  • Church and politics
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    The facts remain: the Mormons got directed into the voting booth in California. It was a religion voting, not the individuals. Mormons are closer to sheep at times than are goats. Sad, but true.

    I expect the Mormon leadership to bask in the glow of others defending them. But look at the list of the defenders and you will see intersting traits; top down, we are picked on, we must gather together.

    If the Mormon Church, purposely chose to get straight and involved in the California election, then that said body is a poltical party, not a religion. Yeah... call them as they are.

  • Vince
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:11 p.m.

    To Doyle | 2:07 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008

    It would seem, if this issue were getting positive PR for the LDS Church, you want want this issue to drag and on...

    after all, you are the ones getting more investigators.

    hey, so just keep it going...

  • Vince
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:08 p.m.

    To Lets Make History | 1:49 p.m.

    And as long as you're at it...

    make sure to reverse every landmark court decision ---

    oh, I don't know...

    take the vote away from women, for example
    go back to segregation

    feel free to add to the list...

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 4:01 p.m.

    "Atheism and agnosticism is also agaisnt your religion!!!!

    And you allow them to marry!

    And many of your religious gays you do not."


    The LDS church will not allow Agnostics or Atheists to marry in the temple. Are you taking crazy pills?

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 3:58 p.m.

    "Yes, I would compare gay marriage to heaven. I'm in heaven every time I kiss my boyfriend."

    I assume that you must be married to kiss your boyfriend then, Tom? Or that you ARE married? I could say, "I compare drugs with Hell," even though I've never done drugs.

  • Savant
    Dec. 7, 2008 3:51 p.m.

    I will be disappointed to hear that the LDS Church paid for this ad - as many posters have stated as fact - but the church said it didn't pay for it and I'll take them at their word.

    I do agree, though, that the ad was not necessary. We can either stir the pot and whip up everyone to a frenzy or we can act like adults and find common ground. I think the issue was beginning to calm down.

    BTW, I don't live in UT, CA or NY and no one I know in my state has even mentioned Prop 8, the protests, or the LDS church involvement.

    Don't buy into the idea that this is somehow a battle being fought on a national stage - it's probably the 350 people on here posting and that's about it who are paying attention.

    In my state, a very liberal state, gay marriage was trounced by the voters a few years ago and I've never heard a word about it since.

  • Sammy
    Dec. 7, 2008 3:40 p.m.

    It's apparent that some LDS people have DOUBLE standards. It looks like the division is beginning to happen. Some people will go this way and others will go that way. Whatever matters is what feels good to each individual. Some are full of love while others are filled with hate, judgment and contention. What a true shame.

  • lkidler
    Dec. 7, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    Re: "To lkidler", I'm glad to hear that business hasn't changed much in Utah, from this "boycott". I'm an LDS business woman. It just hurts to think of a business being boycotted because of how its owner voted, or what cause he/she donated to. I have many gay customers, and although I disagree with their lifestyle, I like them. It's gratifying to see Richard's delight when he buys another lemon meringue pie! One day he started to tell me about the "Mormons", and I told him that as a Mormon, I knew that statements against us are very much exaggerated. I told him these exaggerations were perpetrated by disgruntled ex-Mormons. He continues to shop at my bakery, and get his friends hooked on my baking!

  • Tina
    Dec. 7, 2008 3:06 p.m.

    Gayism is not natural.

  • y'all are---
    Dec. 7, 2008 2:50 p.m.

    Hoosiers!

  • Kelly Graham
    Dec. 7, 2008 2:48 p.m.


    No one is entitled to marry who they wish. That's why we have laws. You can't marry your sister or brother, whithout breaking the law either. At one time there was large support for slavery--did that make it right?

    This is not a civil rights issue--it's a common sense one. I know that just because I want something doesn't mean that I have a legal right to it. Even if Prop 8 had failed it would still be wrong for gays to marry. That does not mean that I dislike gay people, I just believe that some things are inherently right, and others inherently wrong. Where did all the common sense go?

  • Adamaria
    Dec. 7, 2008 2:38 p.m.

    NO NO NO! It's Eve and Adamaria. What's wrong with you people!

  • Doyle
    Dec. 7, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    ADAM and EVE not Adam and Steve. What don't you anti not get about that. It has been voted on.

    Now move on and get out of the way. The caravan is in high gear and attracting more and more investigators as we speak. Thanks to the Gay community as intrested has peaked to a new level with this and more and more people will come to the church. Thank you all, thank you all but this is getting tired already.

  • Marsha
    Dec. 7, 2008 1:59 p.m.

    Let this die already. I think it is sad to keep this going. The mormon church taking out ads is not going to make this situation go away. Mormons should just take their lumps already and move on. I have no idea why you would want to string this out. It is bad PR and has split and hurt the church in so many ways. Move on with the issue and let the fine mormon members move on as well. This does not one justice

  • Lets Make History
    Dec. 7, 2008 1:49 p.m.

    You are all insane said:

    Once this hits the U.S. Supreme Court all bets are off. The gays will get what they want because of the 14th amendment. And they should to because the government, or even some moral majority, shouldn't be in the business of telling a person who they should and shouldn't be with or associated with.



    Once that does happen, it will outrage most of the people of this country to the point where they will put pressure on their state legislatures to vote to call a constitutional convention to consider an amendment to the U.S. constitution defining marriage as between one man and one woman.

    It seems like the vocal minority is determined to make same sex marriage the law of the land through judicial interference. If that is the case, then it is also time for the majority to exercise its constitutional rights by lobbying their state legislators to support a constitutional convention. It will be a grass roots movement bypassing the U.S Senate and House, since both branches have been reluctant to bring the issue to a debate.

  • All of us
    Dec. 7, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    The Mormons are just doing what the rest of us are thinking. Funnier still is that we vote and the Mormons take the shaft.

  • R
    Dec. 7, 2008 1:17 p.m.

    I am exmormon. I did not leave the church because people were hateful, some were some weren't, but because I don't share the same belief system. I know a temple going mormon that took in a gay young man, housing and feeding him for months and never expecting or getting a penny in return. Is that the hatred of which you write?

  • Sheryl
    Dec. 7, 2008 12:51 p.m.

    re: Joshua ben Joseph
    I was suprized that you were so selective regarding quoting scripture, did you forget or just choose to ignore the many scriptures deploring homosexuality and the those upholding the santity of marriage between a man and a women only.
    Is this a case of wanting to make Heavenly Father agree with you, rather that you agreeing with Him?

  • Vince
    Dec. 7, 2008 12:35 p.m.

    Regarding the religious angle...

    We keep using the religious angle to argue one side of the issue about the other.

    I say, LDS have the right to believe that "a marriage is between a man and a woman" --- in their Church.

    However, you take that belief and try to justify it with... oh, I don't know, an agnostic or an atheist, for example... (I am not one, BTW),

    but agnostics and athesists have a right to marriage even if they do not believe in God.

    Religious peoples allow agnostics and atheists the right to marry, regardless of their religious beliefs, by the voice of the majority, as many claim.

    In the same breath, religious people turn around, and say "No, religious people, in this case gay, (some gays are religious --- me, for example) cannot marry.

    In one instance you issue agnostics and atheists because it is a right of the state... not the Church.

    In the next, for the gays... you say, "no you cannot marry because it is against our religion"

    Atheism and agnosticism is also agaisnt your religion!!!!

    And you allow them to marry!

    And many of your religious gays you do not.

    Pourquoi?

  • Vince
    Dec. 7, 2008 12:26 p.m.

    Regarding "the history of marriage"

    I keep seeing comments that from the Yes on 8 folks that that the campaign was about "restoring marriage" and a "return to tradition"

    The implied Message delivered: Restoring is a good thing. Tradition is a good thing. It's like America and apple pie.

    Look in history dotcom, type in "marriage" and you will see lists and lists of articles showing that "marriage between one man and one woman" has not always been traditional nor is it good to restore it to that.

    When we say "restore marriage" --- restore it to what, exactly?

    There are articles about concubines, Henry VIII comes to mind, polygamy throughout history, feudalism, property rights, inter-racial marriage not being allowed, divorce, women not being able to hold property, and on and on... - - - - many of these things in history happened under the name of religion, many under the name of tradition, many under the subjugation of the oppressors oppressing the weak.

    This whole talk about "restoring marriage" to "tradition" is not quite gelling.

  • Tom
    Dec. 7, 2008 12:12 p.m.

    Yes, I would compare gay marriage to heaven. I'm in heaven every time I kiss my boyfriend.

  • Mark Houser
    Dec. 7, 2008 11:06 a.m.

    If this ammendment had failed in California, what would have been the next step for the gay/lesbian community? I doubt they would stop there. Next most likely would be suing for access to be married in the LDS Temples, saying they were being discrimanted. That is why we pushed so hard for Prop 102 in Arizona, because you know that it would not stop at just recognizing the union of the two individuals. Also, the gay/lesbian community needs to go after the Apostle Paul, for he many times came out against the homosexual lifestyle, which is what the LDS Church is doing. I am willing to follow my God's commandments rather than be politically correct with individuals that have no tolerance for me and my beliefs.

  • James
    Dec. 7, 2008 10:24 a.m.

    Seperation of church and state has been misinterpreted by the liberals.it is only one way-the church do not want the state to tell them how they should be run.the other way does not apply.It will be shocking to many that it is not even in our constitution

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 7, 2008 10:10 a.m.

    Joshua ben Joseph! did you really just compare gay marriage with heaven?!

  • Yawn
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    Very boring, dumb, and stupid.

  • DennyG
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:27 a.m.

    I'm with a number of posters on this one.
    The Gay and Lesbian population should stop doing business in any way, shape or fashion with LDS peoples and companies.
    Period.

  • BAAH BAAH SHEEP
    Dec. 7, 2008 8:22 a.m.

    ANYONE can place an ad in the New York Times. Why is this "news?" I would guess that Mormons are involved in placing the ad, same as they were when the "petition" by "other" religions supporting the Mormon church was circulated.

  • Nicole
    Dec. 7, 2008 7:29 a.m.

    Yes but it is your responsability to bridal your passions like Jesus Christ taught his Apostles. He never said it would be easy He just said it would be worth it...and yes we Mormons Love all people gay or not gay....I love them all

  • angeltoes
    Dec. 7, 2008 7:13 a.m.

    Let us be faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord; for behold he is mightier than all the earth, then why not mightier than [the LGBT] and [their] fifty, yea or even than [their] tens of thousands? 1 Nephi 4:1

    He has promised that we will be safe upon this land as long as we obey His commandments. I am not afraid of the LGBT, I'm going to do what the Lord says.

  • Rich
    Dec. 7, 2008 12:58 a.m.

    It's not a homosexual person's fault for having an attraction to persons of the same gender. What's wrong is to express that attraction sexually. At least that's what most Biblical scholars say. And that's why many nationally known gays are either agnostic or atheistic -- they think they're right and that God is wrong. Therefore, there could not be a God. I don't want gays forcing my government to accept homosexual activity as normal and something to be acceptable and condoned, which government-approved marriage would do.

  • Wow, step back for a minute!!!
    Dec. 7, 2008 12:01 a.m.

    I am not reading the comments, but I am getting a feel on both sides and it is pretty hostile. I am ultra conservative, and I never agree with anyone who is pro life bombing abortion clinics. I am against gay marriage but for rights for gay couples, but I would never attack verbally gay people.

    Last month in General Conference we were told to use kind words, to not engage in heated discussions, we were prepared for what was going to happen, but from the mean spirited comments from many LDS, I don't think that message got across.

    I believe that good Christian people, who are trying to follow the example and ways of the Savior need to be careful about getting sucked into the fight. I can see that there are words of hate on both sides, but I believe that those who were give council by their church leaders to avoid this are at more fault. What happened to "love the sinner, not the sin". If the LDS here would just keep there mouths (fingers) quiet, you would not see such hateful blogs here. It is so easy to get sucked into it and best to avoid.

  • don
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:56 p.m.

    hey "adam and steve", you are a typical intolerant, judgemental biget.....what if adam enjoyed being with steve? people like you are probably the result of white knuckling repression of your own homosexual feelings or have had to deal with someone close to you who struggled with gay feelings so you start lobbing out insults and anger so that you can hide the true situation behind your own closed doors.

  • Hicks in the sticks
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:47 p.m.

    Oh Please! The Adam & Steve things has wore itself out! Give it a break and find another stupid praise.

  • @ your feet
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:30 p.m.

    The comments have literally gone down hill in the last half hour. Some of what has been written is totally unschooled and retarded. Ive had it with all of you, and I'm going to bed-GOODNIGHT!

  • Choose the Right
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:29 p.m.

    No more ADAM AND STEVE. The Prophet has mad this clear.

  • Re/ Deb
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:22 p.m.

    You are lucky that you have ACTUALLY SEEN SO MANY people who are interested in the church. I don't know where you live but it is not the same here in our neck of the woods.. Anyway, I'm happy that you KNOW SO MANY. That is very interesting?

  • CTR and think before you post
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:21 p.m.

    Stop it already. Investigators are drying up and the image of the Church is nose diving. You people who think it is a calling to defend the Church on a message post are insane. This is just crazy; you make a mockery of yourself and the Church. Your should be ashamed. Stop it, you are making it worse.

  • Southern Utah
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:16 p.m.

    Marvin J Ashton, former Apostle for the LDS Church gave the following talk in the May Ensign 1978.

    Certain people and organizations are trying to provoke us into contention with slander, innuendos, and improper classifications. How unwise we are in todays society to allow ourselves to become irritated, dismayed, or offended because others seem to enjoy the role of misstating our position or involvement. Our principles or standards will not be less than they are because of the statements of the contentious. Ours is to explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts. Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral issues of the day and the eternal principles of the gospel, but to contend with no man or organization. Contention builds walls and puts up barriers. Love opens doors. Ours is to be heard and teach. Ours is not only to avoid contention, but to see that such things are done away."

    Contention is of the DEVIL, lets not get caught in this trap (3 Ne. 11:29, 30.) Let us follow the counsel of the Apostles and Prophets.

  • Dave
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:14 p.m.

    I wonder if this is why President Hinkley had us read the Book of Mormon, so we can remember that are joy shall be full forever if we endure the crosses of the world and despise the shame of it. 2 Nephi 9:18.

  • Morgan Cole
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:13 p.m.

    ADAM AND EVE. No more adam and steve. What don't you people get about this. CHOOSE THE RIGHT.

  • You are all insane
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:12 p.m.

    To the gays:

    You lost, deal with it. You might find more success in your cause if you employed Dale Carnegie's thoughts on how to win friends and influence people. If somebody doesn't believe the same as you it doesn't mean you need to go out and protest against them. All it does is show that your intellect doesn't have room for the fine are of persuasion.

    To all the Mormons on here:

    Are you really so insecure in your faith that you need to come here and attack the gays for their own beliefs. Don't Mormons deal with enough attacks on their beliefs that they should be sensitive to others plights? Go home and spend time with your families, for I am certain that they could benefit far more from your attention than the mindless arguing you partake in here.

    To everybody else:

    Once this hits the U.S. Supreme Court all bets are off. The gays will get what they want because of the 14th amendment. And they should to because the government, or even some moral majority, shouldn't be in the business of telling a person who they should and shouldn't be with or associated with.

  • Deb
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:08 p.m.

    Haven't seen the members against members and have actually seen others interested in our church. This has really been a good thing where I am at. I don't see where it is breaking my ward apart. Not even close. And again, I have only seen people wanting to know more about our church, because they appreciate our standing for good things, right things. This will not stop the progression of the church. Nothing has in the past and it won't now. It will continue to grow. Believe it or not, those that post such bad things only help us, because it makes people more curious. They then choose to investigate our beliefs, and many join.

  • Deb
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:03 p.m.

    Those that keep asking for the evidence about the protest against the LDS church obviously have not watched the news coming from California. They have showed over and over the crowds of homosexuals out in front of the temple. The signs they placed and the things they wrote on the fence post. That hasn't been a great secret from the country. I don't know how you miss that. Again, they make this a gay thing, when really it is about marriage. It is about leaders of our church not being forced to marry gay couples and about our children being taught in school that all of that is normal. We don't believe that it is and would like to have some say in what our children are taught along those lines. I'm not telling them that they cannot choose to be together. They can choose that, but don't use marriage to define your feelings for each other. Marriage is a religious thing. It is important to those that are religious. Being God fearing, marriage is between a man and a women. All the way back to the Garden of Eden. One man, one women. Period

  • Tamera
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:01 p.m.

    To Anonymous---- you are absolutely correct. Our ward has so much back biting going on now that it is almost not worth going to church any longer. Member against members nowadays and very sad indeed.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:52 p.m.

    The militant mormon movement has lost credibility with itself and also within it's ward. We are split and some are leaving. I am sad over this. Some people need to just settle down. This is hurting the Church.

  • Gerry
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:51 p.m.

    Re SoCal
    They do the same filthy finger gestures here in Utah. The gays I know are obscene with NO CLASS! Me and my spouse have watched a couple who live in some duplexes near us, who come into our neighborhood park every night and smooch right where our kids play.

  • SoCal
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:39 p.m.

    The hard core gay movement has lost so much credibility. As someone who spent many hours holding Yes on 8 signs on corners in Southern California in the months leading up to the election, I can tell you first had that these guys/gals would have everyone that differs with them sent to the gas chamber. As they would drive by in the BMWs flipping you off and screaming profanity (always starting with the letter "f"), the message in their eyes was "how dare you disagree with me!" A really, really scary bunch.

  • TROLL
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:36 p.m.

    Re: Marvin

    You are one CONTENTIOUS person.

  • Action!
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:34 p.m.

    Because gays have a different set of values than my own I will immediately take the following actions:

    1. I will not patronize any business owned by a gay person.
    2. I will protest the gay pride parade.
    3. I will protest at their place of worship -- oh, I forgot they do not worship.
    4. I will not visit any place which maintains a high gay population like SF, SD, NY, etc

    Guess what gays -- there are a lot more of us than you.

  • @ 10:21 p m
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:33 p.m.

    What the?
    May i ask you what kind of word is thatw? Hummm? you better practice what you preach friend, and do a spell check as well. You are a very funny person. Try this also after your sentences '?'

    I'm happy that you finely learned how to spell Christian. Laughing Christian has been a excellent teacher for you.

  • Marvin
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:24 p.m.

    Me luvs some persecution. It is what makes the cult what it is. Bring it on and bring it in full force.

  • @ laughing christian
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:21 p.m.

    sorry no it for if-- I don't know where you are reaching for that one. we are to seperate posters and of course in the body of the note Christian was with a capital 'C'. In reponding your post name, well thatw would NOT need to be capitalized. Once again not very Christian.

  • RR
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:11 p.m.

    News like this lets me know the church is doing its job. We have to defend what's right in this world, cuz no one else will. Let the persecutions come!

  • Anon
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:05 p.m.

    Curious, members of the LDS church are being castigated for being sheep and following the counsels of the church leaders, and being controlled by them, and yet, the gay community continually uses the same arguments in every forum of public discourse that have been propogated by their self appointed leaders.
    Hypocrisy is always entertaining. I will take a leader that I believe was called by revelation over a self appointed leader any day.

  • Laughing Christian
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:03 p.m.

    Re 9:35 9:45

    HA HA! I misspelled that on purpose just to see if you were somewhat coherent? Although I'm still not convinced that you are, because you misspelled IF and used IT instead. I'm still laughing my head off! SO PLEASE STOP IT! Perhaps you better worry about your own spelling mistakes because you have too many of them. However, CHRISTIAN is a very big one. Please tell me how you would know what a Christian is if you cannot even spell the word? Oh yeah, Christian is spelled with a CAPITAL "C" :O+

  • Your behavior is typical tyrant
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:02 p.m.

    Re: "@9:33 P.M,"

    "It the right to protest is actually a well established part of our laws."

    The right to petition the government for a redress of grievances is a well established part of our law. There is no consensus on the right to protest other voters, their families or organizations they belong to.

    "I love how you keep attacking me yet some how never manage provide the proof to support your claims."

    And I love how you keep making this claim even though you know that we only have 200 words and can't post links. Google my post (I did it) and you will get all the result you need.

    "You cannot form one coherent thought or provide evidence for even one of your claims yet you call me stupid.

    You are the one who is being incoherent and making the same claim even though it relies on the fallacy of appealing to authority.

    "So rather then waist any more time exchanging pointless insults I am really going to step away from engaging you further and bid you goodnight."

    Do you always have to last word and one up everyone. This attitude is the reason you agree with tyrants.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:48 p.m.

    "Antis, Exmo's and axed have no business posting here."

    ...I'm none of the above, but if there were none of these, it wouldn't be half as interesting or infuriating. I get pretty angry sometimes reading through these kinds of things, but I also always have such a great time laughing at the completely ignorant imbeciles that come here.

  • @thought...
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:49 p.m.

    so basically you and those you agree with should be the only ones allowed to say nasty things on these forums without anyone challenging your opinions, does that about sum it up?

  • @ laughing at christian
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:45 p.m.

    It is arent or are not, it is not are't. Make sure you have spell check on before you attack another for spelling. You may be a BYU alum but that is no excuse. BTW, your comments were not Christian by any means

  • @9:33 P.M.
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:46 p.m.

    It the right to protest is actually a well established part of our laws. I love how you keep attacking me yet some how never manage provide the proof to support your claims. You cannot form one coherent thought or provide evidence for even one of your claims yet you call me stupid. I think it is pretty obvious to anyone reading this exchange that you are not playing with a full deck. So rather then waist any more time exchanging pointless insults I am really going to step away from engaging you further and bid you goodnight.

  • Thought...
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:38 p.m.

    If antis don't have anything nice to say well keep it to yourself. Antis, Exmo's and axed have no business posting here. Please deseret news get some better policies to keep these folks out.

  • @laughing christian!
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:35 p.m.

    oh you little rascal you got me, are you always this childish?

  • What part of you are stupid...
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:33 p.m.

    To: "@8:16 pm,"

    ...don't you understand?

    "What part of the protesters right to free speech do you not understand? you obviously supported the people you claim are now being protested against right to free speech."

    I supported their right to speak out on the issues and to vote in an election. That's what real freedom of speech is about. It isn't "freedom of speech" to protest a private individual or organization for choosing to participate in the public arena or to harass businesses, their employees or customers. What part of this don't you understand?

    "...if customers decide to stay away from or leave a business because of the protesters it might just be that they agreed with them, I know hard to imagine right?"

    I suspect that it had to do with being called names for eating at the restaurant and the fact that over 200 people were making noise and not allowing them to eat in peace.

    The more you post the more convinced I am that you are just an arrogant voter who has allowed a right to vote to go to your head. I'm not going to kiss your behind like candidates who want your vote do.

  • @9:18 P.M.
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:32 p.m.

    and your point, I dont recall claiming they did.

  • You are obviously a arrogant nut
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:23 p.m.

    @8:16 pm,

    "show me the evidence that any of these things you keep claiming actually happened we have been asking all day for any proof of these claims."

    First, I don't have to show you anything but to get you to shut up because you are to stupid to enter a few key words from my posts into Google I will waste my time humoring a retard.

    Marjorie Christoffersen, a manager at the El Coyote Mexican Cafe in Los Angeles donated $100 to Yes on 8. So to punish this woman gay activists urged that a protest of El Coyote be held. The protest was held and finally the restaurant's employees chose to make a $500 donation to end the protest because a server called in because they were worried and customers were called vulgarities as they left. The restaurant took a loss of $50 because of a unhappy table and a birthday party was ruined. You cannot tell me that as a customer celebrating a birthday that you would be okay with it.

    "I am done engaging your bazaar thought processes,"

    I thought you wanted me to SHOW you evidence. Now you are done. That's bizarre (not bazaar).

  • Laughing Christian!
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:23 p.m.

    Re: 9:03 @sinner....and yes you are!

    Ahuh-ahuh! you can't spell Christian. That must mean that you are't one...ahuh-ahuh-ahuh!

    Christen is my aunts name...aaahuh-aaahuh-aaahuh-huh!

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:22 p.m.

    "your right those mormons really need to get back to being true christens."

    I suppose the Catholics do too? And every other religion standing up for (and having the complete and total right to do so) proposition 8?

  • Anon.
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:22 p.m.

    It would be curious to know how the pro Prop 8 Crowd would have reacted if they had won, and there were protests because of it. Oh wait, there would not have been protests. If you are protesting a legtitimate election, (especially the second time around) it is thug politics. Nothing less.

  • From Mom
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:19 p.m.

    Like Mom use to tell us....if you don't have anything nice to say....don't say it at all! Thank you!

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:18 p.m.

    "As far as the restaurant and the bridal store even if these things did happen I still see no evidence that the protesters actually did break any laws."

    Nobody broke any laws voting either. In fact they exercised their right to do so.

  • @Robert S Morrow
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:16 p.m.

    who is being a bully is certainly a matter of opinion. so who are you talking too? pro prop 8 or anti prop 8 supporters. I think there is enough bulling from both sides to go around at this point.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:13 p.m.

    You can rap alot of nice words around hate and present it as doctrine but in the end hate is hate. Yhe LDS church is very versed in this,

  • opinion kind of like facts
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:13 p.m.

    "re:opinion," I was responding to "the facts" and their attempt to pass off empty rhetoric as fact (illustrating a point), I do believe most Mormon (like most people) are good decent people and I am more then happy to stay out of you life if you stay out of mine.

  • Robin S. Morrow
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:09 p.m.

    Brother and sisters we are called to defend ourselves on these blogs. Stand up for yourselves and defend the right.

    CHOOSE THE RIGHT and do not let these bullies effect our faith.

  • cactus_boy
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:06 p.m.

    Jabba wrote: "Why do mormons preach so much hate in the name of religion and democracy?"

    Here is what Mormons actually preach: "Marriage between man and woman is essential to God's eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity."

    If you call that hate speech then you must have a very different meaning of the word hate.

  • @sinner
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:03 p.m.

    your right those mormons really need to get back to being true christens.

  • Jess
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:02 p.m.

    Mormons are a fun bunch. If only you had one ounce of truth in doctrine, well maybe you would have an easier time. Good luck on the the works of ole' Joe but I think it has got about as far as it will go. Look to thr father and son and not to joseph smith and perhaps one day you will be christian.

  • You must know
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:00 p.m.

    just because people believe being Mormon is ok, does it make pedophiles ok what about toasters marring hot pads?? I understand they believe god made them this way as well.

    This really does just get more and more fun...

    I see why you all love it so much.

  • Sinner
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:57 p.m.

    Perversion is perversion no matter how you try to justify it.

  • @8:16 pm
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:56 p.m.

    your arguments keep getting stranger and stranger and less and less based in reality. show me the evidence that any of these things you keep claiming actually happened we have been asking all day for any proof of these claims. As far as the restaurant and the bridal store even if these things did happen I still see no evidence that the protesters actually did break any laws. if customers decide to stay away from or leave a business because of the protesters it might just be that they agreed with them, I know hard to imagine right? What part of the protesters right to free speech do you not understand? you obviously supported the people you claim are now being protested against right to free speech. I am done engaging your bazaar thought processes,

  • Mikey
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:53 p.m.

    Has anyone ever dealt with a rabid mormon missionary. Enough said there! The mormon tact is no better than the gays.

    These are two peas of the same pod. They are just to alike and i think this is the root of the issue.

    Boy you each need to get outside of your culture.

  • You attacked my family, I defend
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:53 p.m.

    James Aultman,

    "Wow, nothing like miltant mormon with hate in hand and a mission on there mind."

    You fail to mention that that mission is to protect our right to worship, live and work in peace and not to be harassed because we chose to participate in a free election.

    "What a buch you all are. It is actually quite comical but concerning nevertheless. The rabidness in the mormon community is, well a little disturbing."

    You try showing up to the Temple to worship only to find out that it had to be closed because there is a protest. You try calling in to work because you are to afraid to go in because there is a protest going on. You try showing up to your business and reading signs that attack your family and you by name just because you voted. You call this rabidness and I call it loving my family enough to not tolerate a bunch of idiots putting them through such garbage. I don't know who you and your mommy and daddy think you are? But you were a reject as a child, in High School, in college and will be when you become Senator.

  • I Must Know
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:46 p.m.

    Just because people believe being gay or lesbian is ok, does this make pedophiles ok??? I understand they believe God made them this way as well.

  • Cry foul if we protest them?
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:38 p.m.

    Yes, terrorists,

    "Anyone that has dealt with gay activists knows that as soon as you voice objections to their lifestyle and ugly activism they start issuing anonymous death threats."

    It's not always anonymous as was the case with the group of Christians who had gathered in the Castro District of San Fransisco to sing hymns only to have to be escorted to safety by police. The gay mob were shouting "die, die, die" and "you [expletive] pigs." Then they were threatening that they would "follow them all the way home" and told them never to come back because it was THEIR neighborhood. They didn't just own property or rent there but the neighborhood belonged to them.

    "The gays call your home phone and tell you that your son or daughter is going to be slaughtered unless you stop campaigning against them. You think I'm making this up?"

    No, I don't think you are making it up because they have made public death threats, vandalized property and harassed voters for daring to vote and donate. We must never be intimidated. They don't want civil discussion. They want to punish and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them.

  • Samman
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:32 p.m.

    I am sitting in a Hotel room in a country where this type of discussion might very well lead to death. In this country a person can be arrested for speaking against it's President or even the Police. If that happens, a person will lose all his belongings and be cast out by his family.

    This city has over 22 million people kept under control my intimidation and fear. Everyone I talk to comments how their dream is to come to the US.

    Knowing I am a Christian does not concern them. Whenever I travel in this part of the world, I am shown respect for my religious beliefs as long as I show respect for theirs.

    For the first time, I have seen the type of hatred I thought I would not see in the US. The effort to organize hatred is one a path that will lead only to more hatred.

    Gays in this country are simply put to death. End of storey. The appeals process does not exist.

    There are far more issues at stake in this Prop 8 issue. Free speech, Religion, and employment are all at risk.

  • I bow to your holy opinion/vote
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:31 p.m.

    Re: "to: Protesters are Terrorists,"

    "Is that a joke?"

    No it isn't a joke and if you can't see that then you are the scum of the earth. I don't have to prove to you that I'm intimidated by your protests. All I need to do is know how I feel.

    "You think some people holding signs and picketing outside the LDS temple, or boycotting business is the same as suicide bombers who fly planes into buildings? The same as someone who straps explosives to a kid and sends them into a public place? I think you are being a tad dramatic here."

    Did I say that or are you just going to be a jerk and twist what I say to mock it because you have fallen in love with your right to vote and protest. You have got to be joking but you aren't. I suspect that you really believe that and that is why there are idiots in Congress and in government.

    If not voting is the price of not having my children read these signs than I will not vote. You win. Thank you so much for showing your subjects that you are right.

  • JJ
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:26 p.m.

    I think after reading several of the entries here, I am more concerned that the English language is being slaughtered so badly that some of you don't make any sense - no matter what your 'leanings' may be. And after careful consideration, it has also occurred to me that truth is what is suffering most. I think many of you have decided what you WANT to believe, not what is actual truth. AND that if the truth was certified, notarized and placed in front of you, you'd still cry, "cheat, liar, let's get even." Remember that when you get in the trough with a pig, you will both be dirty but only the pig will enjoy it.

  • To Ikidler
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:23 p.m.

    It will be interesting to see if this "boycott" of all things Mormon and Utah is going to really be effective or not.

    I'm not dismissing it or down playing it, but at the same time, I wonder if it has any legs.

    I work at a Marriott Hotel here in Salt Lake, and so far, business has been just as good now as it was before Election Day. I know of a number of people who are already planning to attend the Sundance Film Fesitval, and as far as I can tell, I have yet to see a sudden drop off in attendence at Utah Jazz games or U of U and BYU sporting events.

    I'll be VERY interested to see where this Mormon/Utah boycott will be in six months, nine months or 18 months from now.

  • When do you eat dinner so I...
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:16 p.m.

    To "@washcomom,"

    ...can protest at your home.

    "Protesting does not equal mobs and voicing our opinion does not suppress your speech as evidenced by the hundreds of pro prop 8 post on these threads lately, but the use of rhetoric calling those that appose your views mobs and terrorist using violence and intimidation as a way to make them seem less then is a little less then civil.

    If you believe that protesting outside of a persons place of employment, business, place of worship or home isn't terrorism you are deluding yourself. The employees of one restaurant in California raised over $500 to bribe protesters to leave because their customers were leaving and a birthday party was ruined and the restaurant had to pay for a $50 meal. All because ONE, not two or more, manager donated $100 to Yes on 8.

    Others have resigned their positions to protect their organizations from protesters and businesses in Utah and elsewhere have been boycotted because their employees donated to Yes on 8. One owner of a Bridal Dress shop had her business protested even though she actually opposed Proposition 8. All because one of her employees donated in favor of it.

  • re: opinions
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:03 p.m.

    I am LDS and I don't share any details of my religious life with anyone at work unless someone asks me a question (I live outside of Utah). I don't even like green jello.

    You stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours. Deal?

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:02 p.m.

    re: Pot vs. Kettle | 6:23 p.m.
    I was wondering when someone was going to bring up Mountain Meadow; a single incident of violence in 150 years that Mormon critics always seem to forget was preceded by the murder, extermination and relocation of the Mormon population. I guess following that logic; since there are violent episodes in gay history - then labeling all gays as inherantly violnet is perfectly acceptable. NOT BTW I am homosexual and embarrassed by those claiming to speak for me.

  • An Interested Idahoan
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:57 p.m.

    Here I sit on a Saturday night quietly listening to good Christmas carols and think of the wisdom in sending a child to the world to help mankind eventually find its way. I love Jesus Christ and his overwhelming self-sacrifice on mine and everyone else on earth's behalf. I know he even loves those of us who sin and are troubled or burdened with feelings of uncertainty and doubt about these issues concerning marriage.
    There is but one source of truth and peace. May I suggest to those who are debating so harshly that we take a break tomorrow and figure out where that source of truth is and how to go forward peacefully and civilly?

  • lkidler
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:56 p.m.

    The gays have a blacklist of Mormon business people who supported Prop 8? Dude!! FREE ADVERTISING!!! Now gays, this is precedent setting. Now ALL businesses will demand free advertising. I must go now - looking for a good dentist. Hmmm... gayblacklist....

  • opinions kind of like facts
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:45 p.m.

    I work with many LDS people and I like them all. They are normal in many ways. But I don't want to hear about their religous lives and green jello. No law can change my feelings that this kind of stuff is just plain weird.

    Hey this empty rhetoric thing just gets more fun all the time.

  • Funny
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:45 p.m.

    Funny how the only people who are closed minded and set in their ways are the religious right. Everyone else is really open minded to new ideas. As long as they are new ideas that they happen to agree with.

    The hypocrisy from the left is sickening.

  • The Facts
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:35 p.m.

    Reading the past few comments, it's obvious that the left is getting more desperate.

    Why don't the gay rights people just admit this has nothing to do with marriage at all? End the charade.

    The "civil right" they seek is to be regarded as normal by all others. They want this to be legislated and forced on everyone. That's why there is such a great amount of push back - not just from Mormons, but from a large majority of Americans - blacks, hispanics, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, etc, etc.

    I work with many gay people and I like them all. They are normal in many ways. But I don't want to hear about their love lives and men kissing men, etc. No law can change my feelings that this kind of stuff is just plain weird.

  • @FACT OF THE MATTER
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:30 p.m.

    It is interesting that Mormons say what happens in their religion is private no ones business, but they sure love rubbing everyones nose in their religious beliefs. They love to push their beliefs into everything the can.

    THEY THINK DON'T BOTHER ME WITH THE FACTS, MY BELEIFS ARE RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG, MY MIND IS MADE UP

    HEY THIS EMPTY RHETORIC AND TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS TO MAKE WHAT YOU SAY LOOK MORE IMPRESSIVE IS KIND OF FUN. LETS DO THIS MORE FACT OF THE MATTER I THINK ITS HELPING.

  • @7:16 P.M.
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:23 p.m.

    Obviously a lot of people on your side of the argument think so using words like terrorist, mobs, and evil knowing@6;53 p.m. and the person re:knowing was responding to) to describe gay activist, but your post is a great example of selective reading.

  • NevadaCoug
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:23 p.m.

    "And, when did you lose your civil rights? Oh thats right, you didn't."

    Ever heard of a place called Missouri? Oh, about 1835-1840; you know, that time period? Where Mormons were driven off their land, killed, and had an extermination order signed against them by the Governor?

    Ever heard of Nauvoo? About 1845? Where Mormons were again forced from their homes and had to lose their property or give up their lives? All because of their religious beliefs?

    Every heard of Johnson's Army? You know, those soldiers that were sent to invade and occupy the territory of Utah? All because...I don't know why. Just because Mormons believed a little differently than most, maybe?

    And which "civil right" did Mormons deprive homosexuals of exactly? Hmm? I understand that only about 2% or so of the population of California is Mormon, yet over 50% of the voters chose "yes" on Proposition 8. How is this the Mormon's fault.

    If you are going to open your trap and criticize a religion, how about learning some history first. Several times throughout history the Mormon people have been deprived of their rights. Yet you get upset when Californians deprive nobody and blame the Mormons.

  • No child left behind
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:16 p.m.

    Mormons and gays have too much in common to ever get along. Both are insecure and unsure of where they are or need to be. This may be at the root of the problem. This is the ultimate grudge match of the two little step children of america. No one wants to be in last place and this is what these to are playing for. Very sad actually but it is what it is.

  • re:re;knowing 6;53
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:13 p.m.

    The LDS church and most of its people are NOT evil.

    I'm not sure how people like you honestly think you're going to win anyone over. Do you really believe that name-calling and bashing people is going to change hearts and minds?

  • Re: knowing 6:53
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:06 p.m.

    I agree. Be aware of the evil coming. The LDS church and its people are coming and we must be aware of this evil.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:03 p.m.

    Just because the LDS Church bought an ad in the NY Times doesn't make it be valid. I personally have cancelled my subscription and let them know how terribly insensitive it was of them to publish an ad that further victimizes the minority group who lost their civil rights and that if I wanted to read religious propaganda I would be subscribing to Ensign or The Watchtower written by the Jehovas Witness's.

    I don't know of any violence against the LDS church for it's role in proposition 8 other than their revealed for the prejudice religious fanatics that they are and their trying to change subject by mailing white powder to themselves. Ya your the victims, yeah right. And, when did you lose your civil rights? Oh thats right, you didn't.

    Give me a break. Nobody is going to believe your little store bought ad.

  • Lynn
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    Melissa Ethridge has an awesome, powerful voice. She has a great talent and uses it to full extent to tout her lifestyle. Recently her song about war and "bring my baby back to me" has me thinking. What of the young people who are influenced into experimenting with homosexuality by the gay community? If a person dies in war it is tragic but there is still hope of an eternal reunion. But if a child is lost through immorality can he/she ever be given back? How much greater the tragedy. One can argue this about a billion different ways but which is the greater loss? And those of the media of all types who feel it necessary to put filth into entertainment targeting children specifically...to what purpose...what master do they serve? Do we have to play nice with Satan too? The battle is already won. Satan has lost and his goal now is to destroy as many of God's children as possible. Stand up and be counted. I'm proud of those who already have.

  • Southern Utah
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are.

    "We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71)

  • Knowing
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:53 p.m.

    Brothers and Sisters,

    Get ready for a a bad time to come. Evil is trying to shut out those trying to do God's Will. Just do what you know is right. Forget what "the State" and "the Politically Correct" think is right. It is not.

  • finger down my throat
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:53 p.m.

    Before Election Day, Prop 8 opponents said that churches who choose not to perform same-sex marriages will not lose their tax-exempt status.

    After Election Day, Prop 8 opponents are now DEMANDING that all churches who choose not to perform same-sex marriage MUST lose their tax-exempt status.

    Before Election Day, Prop 8 opponents said they would not single out churches that supported Prop 8.

    After Election Day, Prop 8 opponents have done nothing EXCEPT single out churches that supported Prop 8.

    So whose being the hypocrite now?

  • Yes, terrorists
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:46 p.m.

    Anyone that has dealt with gay activists knows that as soon as you voice objections to their lifestyle and ugly activism they start issuing anonymous death threats.

    The gays call your home phone and tell you that your son or daughter is going to be slaughtered unless you stop campaigning against them. You think I'm making this up?

    I don't believe they are disposed to follow through with such threats, but threats like the fake anthrax and mobocracy are not new.

  • Southern Utah
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:45 p.m.

    There are those who would have us believe in the validity of what they choose to call same-sex marriage. Our hearts reach out to those who struggle with feelings of affinity for the same gender. We remember you before the Lord, we sympathize with you, we regard you as our brothers and our sisters. However, we cannot condone immoral practices on your part any more than we can condone immoral practices on the part of others. ("Stand Strong against the Wiles of the World," Ensign, November 1995, p. 99.)

    Does not sound like H8TE talk to me.

  • Somebody
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:45 p.m.

    It is ADAM and EVE not adam and steve. When will the gays get over this. Fight all you want like barking little fufu dogs but THE CARAVAN IS MARCHING ON. You lost folks; giv it up!

  • Re: Grateful
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:41 p.m.

    Many (most) Christian churches supported Prop 8, so your leaving the church probably had little/nothing to do with gay marriage.

    Anyone who thinks their threat of leaving the church will change the church's (or God's) stance on homosexuality is sadly mistaken.

    Please read the 15 passages in the OT and NT condemning homosexuality - I can't see how any Christian church can take any other position.

  • Knowah
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:39 p.m.

    To Anonymous::::
    Please refer to the above Jack & Sue, SLC comment. It pretty well sums everything up.

  • LDS in Politics
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:35 p.m.

    The beauty of the LDS church's involvement in this is that it drove the point home that LDS members will do anything they are told. There is no chance of an LDS president anytime soon.

  • Gaile
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:31 p.m.

    Mormons against Prop 8 are still alive and well. We will stand for you and continue your good work in bringing equality.

    My ward was split and there are still tensions over this issue. I think this issue will be here for some time. I support the intent of opposing H8 and many upon many members do as well. The people who post hate on this comment post do not represent the real story.

  • To: Kaylee Martin
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:30 p.m.

    Thanks for your prayers for my soul, Kaylee, but your assumptions about Mormons being trapped in a little box are naive and stereotypical.

    I am a college professor and businessperson with degrees from some of the top universities and I've lived in various countries and states since I left Utah many years ago.

    The more I live and learn, the more convinced I am that the LDS way of life is the most complete and satisfying. There are those who find its teachings too restrictive - I'm not sure why since the commandments are the same in most judeo-christian religions. Those who have a problem with keeping these standards are usually the first to cite obscure, biased writings by excommunicated members and enemies of the church to justify their decision to leave the church.

    No doubt these old writings and accounts are authentic. But lies and half-truths written for defamation 150 years ago are still lies and half-truths. They don't get "more true" with time.

  • to: Protesters are Terrorists?
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:29 p.m.

    Is that a joke? You think some people holding signs and picketing outside the LDS temple, or boycotting business is the same as suicide bombers who fly planes into buildings? The same as someone who straps explosives to a kid and sends them into a public place? I think you are being a tad dramatic here.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:25 p.m.

    how about you come to my house and explain to my child why her loving uncle and his partner are being subjected to day after day of the nasty rhetoric coming from people like you simply because they love each other and their children. Your right you do not have to explain why I offend you and you will never understand the hurt your words cause my child everyday.

  • Sir Stephen
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:25 p.m.

    I don't have to read all of these comments to recognize that the LDS church is being bombarded by bigots. Freedom of speech means nothing to these anti-everything but me type of people.
    These anarchists, because that is what they really are, are just stuck on the fact that they are society's real losers in more ways than one. Not only do they get to lose in court they also lose in the hospital and in bed. These people want not only their "rights" they also want to remove the rights of others.
    You want a real live example of how these people behave and what they want then you need to visit Provincetown, Massachusetts. There you will find that the freaks have taken over. Normal couples are harassed and called names. Discrimination is rampant and man and wife are treated like dirt. THIS IS REALITY. Any other description of this lifestyle is simply lying. THIS IS WAR! There is no such thing as live and let live.

  • Pot vs. Kettle
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:23 p.m.

    Do we really need to give the LDS members a history lesson on what they did when their right to marriage was taken away? The Mountain Meadows Masacre comes to mind. Even if it was not directed by the leaders of the church, it was still performed by members of the church.

  • Re: Alex 5:23
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:21 p.m.

    Perhaps not an embarrassment to the LDS church as this behavior is on par.

    As for as Christianity, well it is a little more then embarrassing. It is not the intent but the rabid and cultish method that is used; it is certainly not Christ-like. I feel bad for what all mormons have to endure in their sad and broken cuture.

  • Grateful
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:21 p.m.

    I have to say watching the LDS church's stance on Prop 8 gave me the strength go to my bishop, asked to be released and leave the LDS church. I think the members of the church are showing their true colors with everything having to do with this.

    I don't want to be affiliated with an organization that gets upset because their right to define their marriage was taken away (polygamy), only to do the same to others, then get upset when people are outraged. If the LDS church wants to be considered a main stream Christian religion, they need to stop whining. I haven't heard any of the Catholics being boycotted because of their donations claiming persecution, same with other Christian churchs.

  • Marco Luxe
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:21 p.m.

    From the Ad: "we do agree on this that we have to stand shoulder to shoulder with each other to protect our right to be able to express our opinion in the public square. So whose voice is this? Civil rights advocates, gay protesters, evangelical leaders, LDS hierarchy, Fred Phelps? Seems like it applies to all. Yes, if you stand up to free speech, you have to stand up for protests directed against the LDS political entanglement.

    So you see, this ad supports both sides: indignant press releases, boycotts, protester signs.

    So nice that LDS leaders thanked the B group for supporting peaceful political protest.

  • @washcomom
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    Some of us have been part of an internal movement to channel the hurt people within the LGBT community feel in to constructive non violent action, however, I am still waiting for evidence of this wide spread "violence and intimidation by mobs and terrorist people are talking about on this thread. Protesting does not equal mobs and voicing our opinion does not suppress your speech as evidenced by the hundreds of pro prop 8 post on these threads lately, but the use of rhetoric calling those that appose your views mobs and terrorist using violence and intimidation as a way to make them seem less then is a little less then civil.

  • They need to stop harassing us
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:17 p.m.

    washcomom,

    "If there are so many of the GLBT community that is NOT for the violence or intimidation shown to the LDS community, why don't you get together and show such a demonstration to those of your own belief and standards?"

    If they can't see the inherent threat to a free and robust democracy that protests targeting a specific group or individual because of their participation in free elections poses then something is wrong with them. America is a constitutional republic and one of the reasons we have secret ballots is because of just this kind of situation yet the law requires that those who donate to a ballot proposition list their names, profession and home towns. This makes it easier for people to target them because of their participation and that is wrong.

    "It is frustrating to see the sideline and armchair tactics of those that will not stand for their own beliefs and wants, yet condemn those that do. You can't waffle on the fence. Eventually you have to put your foot down over the line."

    Those who refuse to condemn anyone who participate in protests at LDS Templs have issues.

    A non-commitment is no commitment.

  • Civil War
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:13 p.m.

    Ready when you are, lefties.

  • Why
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:13 p.m.

    Why is it that gays think that they need special 'so called' rights anyway. The Bible says that "just like homosexual relations" so is adultry a sin and an abomination before god. I don't see adulterers, or polygamists being touted as being a "special minority group" who deserves special rights.
    Marriage has always been and should always be between a 'Man' and a 'Woman'. Period. Anything other than that will cuase a deterioration of the entire country.

  • Marco Luxe
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:13 p.m.

    The breakdown in the political process is due to lies of widespread anti gay propaganda paid for my Mormons in large part. [Read Affirmation website for list of lies debunked.] Both houses of the California legislature passed a gender neutral marriage bill TWICE over three years! The CA Supreme Court essentially mandated the same outcome this year. All it took was one now-acknowledge mistake by ONE MAN, the Governator. So much for the democratic process. Now the religious Reich has prevented the Governor and both houses of the legislature from doing what they now know is right, leaving it to the least democratic branch, the judiciary, to bail us out from the tyranny of the LDS sheeple. Bravo, though, on your excellent propaganda campaign of lies. Unfortunately, now little Susie's classmates all have been taught about gay marriage [it's THE topic in middle schools here]....thanks to you.

  • Let me do it to your family jerk
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:12 p.m.

    something does not add up,

    "People come on these threads day after day, week after week, month after month run newspaper ads saying all saying that their free speech is being oppressed by those pesky gay right activist, some thing does not ad up."

    The argument against the protesters isn't that our freedom of speech is being infringed. We are instead saying that we are being targeted for punishment for our decision to speak our minds, and participate in our free elections. We cannot worship in peace and without intimidation and that is the issue.

    "How could your free speech be oppressed yet we continue to see your opinions day after day, week after week and month after month?"

    How about this? I come to your house and protest all night long because of your post here? How you would feel or how would your child feel if his mother brings him to your business only to read a sign that labels his family homophobes and he recognizes that the man holding the sign is the uncle of a kid in his school.

    You just won't ever get it. I don't have to explain why you offend me.

  • How rude of you hypocrite
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:06 p.m.

    Janica Morrison,

    I'm not the Church and I will comment as I see fit and won't be taking direction from you. Life is a contest and politics is as well. One side wins and the other loses. You may advocate good sportsmanship but I doubt that the fans of the a winning sports team would be as likely to receive the fans of the other team if they were to protest outside of their businesses after they lost.

    Do you see how quickly the sport would crumble into a dust heap and no one would play it anymore. This isn't possible when it comes to government so we must recognize that what is done at the ballot must stay at the ballot.

    You apologize to others by saying "I am sorry to those who are rightfully offended. These people are not the LDS Church." Why don't you apologize to me because I'm offended but you don't care because you are a fake. Other, less strong members of the Church may have their testimony weakened by your comments but I don't. As for how we comment? The question you should ask is "where do you get off making your rude comments."

  • Jack & Sue, SLC
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:48 p.m.

    It is interesting to us that the same argument being used by gays & lesbians, i.e., "God made me this way, and God doesn't make mistakes" is the exact same argument now being used by pedophiles. Where will this road take us in the next 10 to 15 years? California Mormons, YOU ROCK!!!

  • O.C. Marcus
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:47 p.m.

    Awesome. Lets put the gays in their place and close this once and for all. Wrong is wrong and you lost. You need to give it up. Evil will not reign. Adam and Steve must go.

  • washcomom
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:25 p.m.

    If there are so many of the GLBT community that is NOT for the violence or intimidation shown to the LDS community, why don't you get together and show such a demonstration to those of your own belief and standards?

    It is frustrating to see the sideline and armchair tactics of those that will not stand for their own beliefs and wants, yet condemn those that do. You can't waffle on the fence. Eventually you have to put your foot down over the line.

    A non-commitment is no commitment.

  • Alex
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:23 p.m.

    embarrassment:

    "You are all an embarrassment to the LDS church and Christianity."

    Are the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints an embarrassment to the LDS Church?

  • Janica Morrison
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:57 p.m.

    I am a proud member of the LDS Church but am amazed and set aside by many comments of members. I knew there was a rift and many ward members expressed concern but all I have to say is stunned after reading these comments. Where do many members of the church get off in commenting like this or treating others like this? My goodness some of you need to examine yourselves. These comment boards are not a contest and you to not serve the church well when you comment like this. This is not the church I grew up in. I am sorry to those who are rightfully offended. These people are not the LDS church!

  • something does not add up
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    People come on these threads day after day, week after week, month after month run newspaper ads saying all saying that their free speech is being oppressed by those pesky gay right activist, some thing does not ad up. How could your free speech be oppressed yet we continue to see your opinions day after day, week after week and month after month?

  • James Aultman
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:45 p.m.

    Wow, nothing like miltant mormon with hate in hand and a mission on there mind. What a buch you all are. It is actually quite comical but concerning nevertheless. The rabidness in the mormon community is, well a little disturbing.

  • embarrassment
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:44 p.m.

    you people are truly pathetic you have been asked twice for any proof that the gay rights movement had anything to do with the letters or the vandalism and now your claiming that there has been all this violence against LDS church members, wheres the proof that it happened or that the people involved in the gay right movement had anything to do with it? You are all an embarrassment to the LDS church and Christianity

  • ron
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:43 p.m.

    What it all boils down to is, the bible, the one book that all religions should be in accordance with says straight out, that no man or women should bed down with the same, and that even if we dont act apon it in the physical sense, if you do it in your heart you have done it , so if we all believe, in the bible, then there should be no such matters in existence, but hence, we are all human and are easily influenced by the flesh, the greatest tool used by satan to corrupt the plan of procreation, to give Gods children a body of flesh so they may progress... So we all just need to control are human appetites for pleasure and find out why we have these feelings. People we have brain problems, or chemical inbalances if you like, the reasons are clear, they have done test on cereal killers brains, and they all had the same chemical inbalance, their frontal lob, which keeps us from carrying out such acts, did not function at all if any, the act of homosexuality is a brain disfunction get medication peolple. call National Alliance for the Mentally Ill

  • strange logic
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:31 p.m.

    So the LDS church and this organizations way of calling for tolerance is by painting all gay activist as terrorist and thugs? Interesting. why do I suspect a less nobal motive?

  • Anon...
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:30 p.m.

    What ever happened to the good old days, where free thinkers felt that they did not need a piece of paper to define their love?

    It seems that just like the above, Prop 8 is another attempt to devalue marriage, to suit the desires of a particular group.

  • question?
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:26 p.m.

    so they mention the letters sent and vandalism of the churches has it ever been proven that either of these incidents had anything to do with the gay right movement.

  • Deb
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    Let them persecute us all they want. We have lived through it for many years. I hope that people will not give into the persecution though. They need to understand that they need to stand up and vote for what they feel is right. Even if there is persecution down the road. Letting a group of people shut us up is wrong. I am speaking about ALL who voted for prop 8. Thank you for standing together during this election. For working together. It goes to show that even though we might not see eye to eye on religious belief, we can still work together for the things that are right in this country.

    Thank You!

  • Heath
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    Knee biters are what the bunch of you are! Dogs bark but the caraven moves on. You do not effect a thing.

  • Kaylee Martin
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:02 p.m.

    As an ex-member I am always amazed at the hate that members of the church bring. All they know is what they have been taught and have never looked at venturing outside there little box which the prophet has put them in. Wow what a closed society and once I left it opened my eyes. I feel very sorry for many of you and I do pray on behalf of your souls.

  • They want civil war?
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:49 p.m.

    brian,

    "last i checked people from every religion voted, oh did the gays and lesbians get their feeling hurt!?!? oh boo hoo hoo hoo..."

    They are sore losers and feel they have the right to target those of us who disagreed with them and chose to express our disagreement by donating to Yes on 8 and actually voting. Personally, I don't care if their feelings were hurt.

    We are the ones who kept it at the ballot like most civilized people do instead of bringing it to their homes, places of business, employment and worship. Their choice to make this personal will result in one of two things. We will continue to tolerate it or they will push us beyond the point of amending the Constitution to repealing it and writing a new one that they don't like and by the way it is the majorities constitution. We are the ones who protect your rights morons.

    If we cannot expect that what is done in the ballot stays in the ballot then there is no use voting and we are free to show them exactly what we do to those who think that they can harass us and our children.

  • Protesters are terrorists
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:40 p.m.

    Re: Ed H,

    "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the political kitchen." Your "anything goes" mentality sounds an awful lot like another political view from the early 40's. Think about what you're saying Ed."

    It has far more in common with a political view that exists today. That view is expressed by al-Qaeda who has repeatedly stated that if American voters can't handle the political heat then we should get out of the kitchen. Their fundamental belief is based on the idea that if they intimidate Americans because of how we voted then they will prevail because we will either vote as they want or refuse to vote out of fear.

    That's exactly what these protesters are intent on doing. They make it clear they are going to punish every Mormon for participating in free elections and will continue to do so until we stop voting and contributing to ballot issues. Their single goal is to make sure that the only people voting next time are those who agree with them because the rest of us will be too afraid that our homes, businesses, places of employment and worship will be targeted by protesters. It's terrorism.

  • Maybe we should follow them home
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:35 p.m.

    No hate taught in LDS,

    "To all those who claim that opponents of Prop 8, specifically the LDS or Mormon are people who preach hate because of their belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, please reserve your judgement and strong accusations. You only show your ignorance while making these comments."

    If we hate them then why haven't we done to them what they have have done to us which is protest outside of their businesses, places of employment and places of worship?

    Every year there's a gay pride parade in Salt Lake and not a single Mormon (let alone a large group) in Salt Lake forces police to provide parade attendees an escort out of the neighborhood for fear that they would be physically harmed. Not once have we sought to drive them from our neighborhoods or prevent them from exercising their constitutional right.

    When they come to our places of worship to protest we don't go after them and say "We will follow them all the way home." Instead, we simply shut down that place of worship and peacefully allow them to throw a temper tantrum and stop us from worshiping peacefully.

  • We DO have equal rights
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    U.S. citizens younger than 34 cannot be President of the United Stated. That is applied equally to all, and does not violate the rights of those younger than 34.

    A woman and man can be married. That is applied equally to all.

    A man or woman cannot marry multiple women or men. That is applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of men or women.

    A man cannot marry a man. That is applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of men.

    A woman cannot marry a woman. That is applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of men.

    A parent cannot marry their offspring. That is applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of parents.

    A child cannnot marry a child. That is applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of parents.

    Women cannot be drafted by the military. That is applied equally to all. If same sex marriage is allowed, then gender is not a differentiating characteristic in the eyes of the law, and a lawsuit that allows our nation's daughters to be eligible for the next military draft is inevitable.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:27 p.m.

    I'm a leftest living on the Left Coast. I never thought marriage was a piece of paper. I stopped believing in my family's religion after I learn its founder married 38 women, some as young as 14. A pedophile and adulterer can't be a prophet.

  • You want war? Come to my home
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:27 p.m.

    wayne,

    "I feel sorry for those homosexuals who are so furious over prop. 8. They are obviously very frustrated about their way of life, so they lash out at anything and anyone who doesn't agree with them."

    When was the last time a group of homosexuals had to be escorted out of downtown Salt Lake City by police in order to protect them from a mob assaulting them and telling them that they had better not come back to the mobs neighborhood? That is exactly what did happen to a group of Christians who had gathered in the Castro District of San Fransisco to sing hymns. The mob shouted:

    "Die, die, die"
    "Shame on you"
    "Don't come back"
    "All the way home"
    "We are going to follow them all the way home"
    "Boo, boo, boo"
    "It's our neighborhood"
    "You [expletive] pigs"

    Now if a group of heterosexuals did this to the gay pride parade every year they would protest and shout about how their rights were violated. The threat to follow them all the way home should have resulted in arrests but the police were afraid of these people. I dare them to come to my home.

  • Carlos
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:24 p.m.

    There is something wrong with the leaders of these activist groups, they are accusing the LDS church of things they are actually doing, like threatening the church members, being so stubborn and blind that they can no see beyond their own greed and hunger for public pity and because they cannot get it, they use the church as a escaping goats for their own mistakes. The people of California decided to go for the ban, of which a very small percentage are LDS, and did it by they own free will. Why these so-called leaders of the open minded groups are so intolerant to somebody's else opinion. They want everybody else to be tolerant to them but when these gay groups have to be tolerant, they attack. Nice rule, THUGS.

  • Re: Ed H
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:14 p.m.

    "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the political kitchen." Your "anything goes" mentality sounds an awful lot like another political view from the early 40's. Think about what you're saying Ed.

  • Would use profanity if allowed
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:12 p.m.

    Boundaries,

    "The LDS church hasn't stepped too far into the political realm--it's the gay community that has pushed too far into the moral realm. If there is a boundary that exists between politics and morality, that boundary was pushed by the gays way too far into moral territory...the territory where churches are compelled to get involved."

    The Church didn't do anything that other tax-exempt gay advocacy organizations didn't do. They wanted to force the majority to recognize and promote same-sex marriage and used coercive means to do so. When the majority decided to stand up and make it clear that they had enough these tyrants had the gall to target us for our participation in free elections.

    What they didn't realize is that we aren't easily intimidated. Churches had little choice but to get involved when gay activists decided that 4 of their friends who serve on the California Supreme Court were going to overturn the will of the people.

    What they fail to understand is we will not sit back and do nothing as they seek to force the majority to promote same-sex marriage. They can threaten and cry all they want but we have had it.

  • No hate taught in LDS
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:00 p.m.

    To all those who claim that opponents of Prop 8, specifically the LDS or Mormon are people who preach hate because of their belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, please reserve your judgement and strong accusations. You only show your ignorance while making these comments.

    The LDS church teaches to love our neighbor as taught in the bible. Listen to our general conference or attend any church meetind and tell me if you hear any teachings on hate.

    Just because someone does not agree with your view does not mean they hate as you accuse. If there are LDS people preaching hate they will be judged just as everyone else will for their actions. You show your true colors and mirror the accusations you make of hate.

  • in Gratitude
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:52 p.m.

    Thanks for all those who support civil discussion and participation.

    Everyone needs to be treated with respect. We share a country, a homeland and many things that bring us together - I believe - more than divide us.

    We will be stronger for this as we work together with mutual concern for all.

  • to linguist
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:48 p.m.

    You are only slight off, but off none the less. Bob may not marry Bill, but Jane may also not marry Ann. So equal rights are indeed shown. You may want to read the Maryland Supreme Court decision on gay marriage for even more.

    You might also want to consider that marriage is not a right just as driving is not a right. Imagine, if you will, a visually impaired person demanding the right to drive. Instead, there are certain requirements for driving just as there are certain requirements for marrying. It comes down to children (Loving V. Virginia) "survival of the species," and Ca. Family code 301. Children born into marriages are assumed to be the children of the husband per the courts. Children born outside marriage are not assumed to be that of the male in the relationship with the court often requiring DNA tests to prove paternity. As soon as a gay couple produces children without a third party, I will gladly support gay marriage. Until then, civil unions are appropriate and sufficient for legal protections including survivorship, end of life decisions and etc.

  • Emma
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:37 p.m.

    Most of the people that voted Yes on Prop 8 are anti-mormon (like me) so why is the mormon church really being targeted? Is it because the church is an easy victim with people NOT liking the church so would not oppose such acts? I voted no last time, if it is brought again I will join the mormons and note yes even if I think their church cultish.

  • California XMormon
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:27 p.m.

    How the dogs howl. These groups lacked the will and money and so got the LDS church to do the dirty work. Now they are crying foul, wrapping themselves in the flag, and crying persecution.
    These are the same folks who consider the LDS church a cult, heretical, and wicked to baptize their dead for them. If the LDS church is anxious to get in bed with them, then the sheets are pulled back and the bed is warm.
    We are talking about majority rule here. Let's have segregation,(the majority did not vote to end that) let's keep the separation of race in marriage, something the LDS church was for and don't tell me differently, I was a missionary in the 50's, that's what we taught. Remember all the changes in how blacks are treated didn't come by a majority vote but by court action, as had many other laws now taken for granted.
    Same gender civil marriage will come to California, whether the religious right wants it or not. It is a matter of justice.
    I am now a proud Episcopalian and grateful to be in a church that loves and supports ALL people.

  • Where is the law?
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:22 p.m.

    Where is the law? The Mormons have been attacked, vandalized, threatened, etc. and not one person has been arrested for these horrible acts? How can this be? We all have the right to vote as we chose, this country is a land of laws & freedoms - so why hasn't the California police officers protected the Mormons & their churches? Why hasn't anyone gotten arrested, as I see it, those were NOT "peaceful" protest. Burning the Bok of Mormon, spray painting the temple gates & LDS churches -as far as I know these are BREAKING the law! So where are the police officers to protect the Mormons?

  • Ed H
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    If you can't stand the heat, get out of the political kitchen. You can't say you do not get involved in politics and then get very involved. This gay marriage issue is not a religious issue. It is an issue as to what the state recognizes as a marriage. It has no consequence on how religions view marriage. The LDS Church got involved in an issue it should have stayed out of, period.

    One last thought. We no longer condemn the African American community for their protests regarding their civil rights in the 60's. Who is history going to prove wrong in this case??

  • brian
    Dec. 6, 2008 2:01 p.m.

    last i checked people from every religion voted, oh did the gays and lesbians get their feeling hurt!?!? oh boo hoo hoo hoo...

  • Boundaries
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:58 p.m.

    The LDS church hasn't stepped too far into the political realm--it's the gay community that has pushed too far into the moral realm. If there is a boundary that exists between politics and morality, that boundary was pushed by the gays way too far into moral territory...the territory where churches are compelled to get involved.

    David S.

  • Hurt Begets Hurt
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:57 p.m.

    Where has the decency of the people of this great nation gone? I think the Founding Fathers may look upon us today with sadness and even disgust. The wounds Christ endured on our behalf must sting a little harder and Heavenly Father must have tear drops on his cheeks.
    While Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus the Christ, Our Savior, loves each and every one of us, they do expect us to follow their commandments. The Scriptures are clear about this. These commandments however, don't give us the right to go around condemning one another for we are all sinners since we aren't perfect creatures. One of the most important commandments that Christians have been given is to love our neighbors as ourselves. That doesn't mean more than ourselves or less than ourselves, but as ourselves. The epitome of the "Golden Rule."
    If this violence and hatred amongst our own people (Americans of all types) does not cease, we will suffer the curse of this land and lose it. If you think what ever your current "oppression" is bad (trust me I personally know some of them are unspeakable), just wait it will be 10 times worse.

  • Nonnie
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    THANK YOU BECKETT FUND, WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.
    THE HOLLYWOOD CROWD HAVE NO MORALS AT ALL ANYWAY, SO WHY PEOPLE THINK THEY WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT IS BEYOND ME. MOST OF THEM ARE LIBERALS ANYWAY AND THE ONES WHO ARE NOT ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE THEIR LIVELYHOOD.

  • wayne
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:27 p.m.

    I feel sorry for those homosexuals who are so furious over prop. 8. They are obviously very frustrated about their way of life, so they lash out at anything and anyone who doesn't agree with them.

  • California #1 @94131
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:19 p.m.

    Just out of curiosity....

    Has anyone heard one single word about all thie physical and economic terrorism from Pres. Bush, any of our new national leaders, or Sen. Feinstein, Gov. Schwarzenegger (who both caved to the same-sex activists' agenda), Calif. Attorney General Jerry Brown (who wrote the biased, prejudicial language of Prop. 8 as "eliminating" a "right"), or the mayor of S.F., Gavin "Whether You Like It Or Not" Newsom?

    What about prominent "No on 8" donors: Brad Pitt, Ellen DeGeneres, Steven Spielberg, Barbara (Mrs. Steve) Young, Suze Ormond, Bruce Bastian, Ambassador James Hormel, George Lucas, PG&E, Apple, & the Calif. Teachers' Association?

    Have any of them condemned the mob actions that shut temples, the white powder, the vandalizing of Church buildings, the vile statements made about Archbishop Niederauer and Catholic priests, or other anti-Mormon/anti-Catholic gestures?

    I'm waiting patiently to hear from them. If you hear anything, I'd like to know. If these people who fed & let loose the hounds of hatefulness have done anything to call them back, I'd love to be able to give them credit.

  • Scott, Iowa
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:14 p.m.

    Shall we see anyone from the gay community or their supporters advocating terrorism? A gay Al Qaeda as it were? People who cannot win one way will resort to violence to achieve their ends. Is homosexuality and lesbianism really a peaceful philosophy or does it have a hidden edge which the present situation will bring out?

  • His children could have read it
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:55 p.m.

    Instereo,

    "I hear people of religion crying, because someone is speaking up against their stand on an issue, saying their religious freedom is being stepped on."

    If it was simply about speaking up about the Church stance on Proposition 8 then no one would care but it isn't just about speaking out but harassment in the form of protests outside of businesses owned by Mormons and which employ Mormons. It is a

    "This argument is going to go on for awhile because when it comes to basic rights, people are going to speak up. When gays are finally given equal rights, they won't be saying anything about their religious brothers and sisters and we'll find that our society will work just fine."

    So the argument goes something like this: When the majority finally caves and obeys the orders of the protesters because they finally become worn out from the constant state of harassment that they, their employees, employers and family have to endure then the protesters will stop because they accomplished their goal.

    You asked how speaking up can infringe on others? How about signs outside of your family owned business which state "Purves family are homophobes."

  • Jemezblue
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:05 p.m.

    What a marvelous, back-handed compliment the militant gays have given the Mormon Church. It is by the Mormons alone that made the passage of Prop 8 possible. There was no help from the community or other religious organizations that spent money and time for Prop 8. Every one who voted for Prop 8 did so because the Mormons told them too.

    What an awful, offensive insult the militant gays have given to those that actually voted for Prop 8. They think that African Americans, Hispanics and other groups dont have the intelligence or the mental power to vote their conscience on issues that matter to their community and society. They all get their marching orders from the Mormon Church.

    Get Real! If the Mormons really had that kind of power, then Mitt Romney would be president and church membership in California and the country would tripled in size during the past year. The people have spoken, so get over it. It doesnt help your cause by using mob tactics on a group of people who really cant take the credit for the passage of Prop 8.

  • Calif lds
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:35 a.m.

    To all members of the LDS Church,

    FOLLOW THE PROPHETS, AND ALL WILL BE WELL. Thats all we need to do.

  • tellitright
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    Has everyone forgotten the CHILDREN?! Every child deserves to have a mother and a father who cares deeply about them. It's true that many kids don't have the ideal family, but they can still grow up feeling secure and make sense of their world. Taking away fundamental building blocks of society, is how you get twisted minds and maladjusted kids. Those people who want to change defintion of marriage to suit their own life style are not thinking of anyone but themselves.

  • Wonderful
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:19 a.m.

    Missionary tool. My neighbors and co-workers who are not LDS are asking me about LDS Beliefs and we are all getting together to have Family Home Evenings on Mondays, with the Missionaries joining us every other Mondays.

  • Anonymous at 1:46 | 7:46 a.m.
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:19 a.m.

    Really, The LDS church provide council to it's members they encourage it's member to fight a sinful and immoral acts. It's up to members to follow or not. Some do, some don't.

    As for thought control, it squarely rests with the Gay and Lesbian community who trying to control our thoughts in accepting their so call "lifestyle." As for proof, there an individual in California, who happens to work on the california school board who is currently hunting down good up standing citizens. This person is trying to force employers to terminate those who voted for and donated to Yes on Prop 8. This is a free country, and we are free to choose, and vote how we want to.

    So what do we call this thought control? I call it the "Gay MacCarthism."

    So the question is: Who is forcing fear into thought control here? NOT the LDS Church.

    These Gays and Lesbians live on a one side street and will scream and throw tantrums until they get their way. We got news for them, the majority of Americans have voted your thought control out. In California it was voted out twice.

    Be happy with your civil unions.

  • Ronnie Buckley
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:08 a.m.

    What has happened to the free speech.
    I do not agree with same sex relationships and the constitution says I have the democratic right to this and to speak my opinion and vote for it as do all people. This is one of the blessings of living in a free land. The Human Rights People seem to forget that part. As an LDS person I do follow the teachings of Christ in the Bible. As I have said I do not agree with same sex unions but I would fight to the death for thier freedom to have thier vote for what they believe in, this is not being a bigiot. But if as in Democracy the majority vote against thier vote then they should with dignity accept the decsion and make the best of it, like we all have to do in such a case.

    Violence for any reason is wrong and the means does not justify the end.

  • Fred
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:04 a.m.

    It's not "Gay Marriage." It's "Same-sex Marriage."

    A Gay Man can marry a Gay Woman.

  • Stephen Reed
    Dec. 6, 2008 11:01 a.m.

    A few months ago, the New York Times wouldn't have allowed the ad.

    It must of needed the money.

  • Instereo ignoramus
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:41 a.m.

    Speaking up is legal, acceptable and even encouraged. Threats and violence are not.

    The NYT ad is signed by a body of people of varying backgrounds and independent beliefs, representing the vast majority of the american demographic. If a third party made up of our peers can see the injustice in how the GLBT community has reacted, why can't you?

    A man marrying a man is not a protected right. Its a behavior that has no claim on consitutional principles. If a group decides they want to marry their St. Bernard dogs and then demand equal rights under the constitution, would you support it? Regardless of your sexual preference, the contitution was not meant to protect your behavior. 52% of the residents of California evidently agree.

  • chip
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:40 a.m.

    What rights have been denied the gays?
    Not the right to have immoral sexual activity that is more than frowned upon by God.
    Not the right to live together.
    Not the right to share property.
    Not the right to appear publically together.
    The only thing they want is for society to say it is alright, when it will never be alright. God forbids it and calling it marriage is to perpetuate a lie. Governments cannot make it marriage. God makes it marriage and the last society that approved Homosexuality was destroyed by God. God does not change his mind so call it whatever you want but it will not be marriage.

  • Giozeph
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:39 a.m.

    For Polish Men to say that the LDS is singled out and does it to the Catholic Church seems to defeat the purpose of this article.

  • Jan
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:35 a.m.

    As an active LDS member, I have no problem with the homosexual community protesting peacefully for the changes they would like. That is their right - just as it was my right to vote as I personally saw fit. But I do have a HUGH problem with the breaking of laws which some are doing and threatning and scaring people and causing them to lose jobs when they have families to support. I am sorry for the mistreatment that some homosexuals have had to go through - but it was not by my hand so don't persucute me. They "Gay" agenda wants their people to use the word "Hate" as often as they can to make the people seem persecuted for people sitting on the fence to feel sorry for them. They know that we don't hate them - it is just a ploy (read the gay agenda). I agree that the law should step up on this stop it - also the state gov. should step up on this also. Why should the gays stop if they feel like they have the backing of the cops and gov???

  • LDSReader
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:34 a.m.

    Militant gay activists are making all homosexuals look very bad, but they are also damaging the lives of those who disagree with them in very mean and unAmerican ways. For example -- militant activists have been contacting the employers of people who contributed to Prop8 (CA law requires donors to list their place of employment) and threatening boycotts, pickets, and even violence against the employer. The result is that a number of these people have been fired for simply expressing a democratic position. The goal of these actions is not just to punish those who supported Prop8 -- but to silence them now, and if another election is held. Thus, when a another election is held, people should list their second occupation, "consulting", as their employment to end the impact of these new brownshirt tactics.

  • to: Linguist
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:25 a.m.

    Your examples are very simple and trite, but what happens when -

    "Bill" wants to marry "Fluffy the lamb"
    "Sally" wants to marry "Sam" (her cousin)
    "Bill" wants to marry "Brittani" (age 15)
    "Bob" wants to marry "Sally," "Jane," "Margaret," etc
    "Bill wants to marry "Bob" but just so Bob doesn't have to go out and get a job and get his own benefits?

    And how did marriage go from "just a piece of paper that means nothing" (left wing, since 1960) to the most important civil right ever???

  • cbk16
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:23 a.m.

    Elton John is happy with his civil union, he does not know why Gays have to change the definition of marriage to be happy. The Mormon church if for equal benefits for same sex partners. Why Gays have to demand Gay marriage when it gives them no more protection than civil unions is strange. It should be understandable if religion does not want to change the definition of marriage that has stood for thousands of years. The Gay movement has vandalized churches and sent possible anthrax to those in religion who appose their view point. Mob violence and hate crimes against those who don't agree with you harkens back to when Missouri made it legal to kill and exterminate Mormons in the 1930s, when many were killed for their beliefs. In the Prop 8 case, religion has not said lets kill Gays for their beliefs, they have just said we do not want to change the definition of Marriage. Hate and bigotry against people of religion should not exist in America in 2008. Since Obama is against Gay marriage, (just not a constitutional amendment, should Obama also be victimized for his belief? His Elton John homophobic?

  • love all people
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:21 a.m.

    This ad wouldn't have been posted if the mobs had not of attacked what is sacred to the Mormons.

    It seems like a huge hissy fit of "I can't get what I want so I will attack".

    It's not only the Mormons. I'm glad that other religions have stuck by what they know is right.

  • Instereo
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:11 a.m.

    I hear people of religion crying, because someone is speaking up against their stand on an issue, saying their religious freedom is being stepped on. It amazes me how narrow minded and how non-self reflective they are because just a month ago with their religious freedom they were advocating not granting equal rights to a large group of citizens.

    It's easy to cry foul when someone is speaking up for themselves but it's hard to see how your speaking up can infringe on another person.

    This argument is going to go on for awhile because when it comes to basic rights, people are going to speak up. When gays are finally given equal rights, they won't be saying anything about their religious brothers and sisters and we'll find that our society will work just fine.

    The constitution starts "We the People...." Historically it's been interpreted to mean we the people except for...... As those "except for's) have been given their rights, the constitution has lived up to ideal potential. The sooner all people have the rights promised, the sooner we'll live in the ideal society the constitution promises.

  • natty
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    And the hits just keep a coming for the mormons. no matter how many times you point the finger at the 'blacks' or the catholics who voted with you. You are still to blame. haha, truth hurts doesn't it? mormon church 10 steps forward, 50 steps backwards. you'll get there one day.

    btw what kinda schools are in utah? don't you know we are a "democratic republic" not a "democracy"?? listening to too much boosh and hatch i suppose.

  • Linguist
    Dec. 6, 2008 10:01 a.m.

    Anonymous wrote, "...Seeking to redefine the marriage based on ones personal PREFERENCE (be they born with it or be it acquired) is NOT a CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. No way."

    No need to "redefine" anything.

    Not sure how you define "civil rights issue", but when one person is denied a right available to others, then, yes, it is indeed a civil rights issue.

    When "Bob" could not marry "Jane" while "Bill" could because "Bob" was white and Jane and Bill were black, that was a civil rights issue.

    When "Bob" could not marry "Bill", while "Jane" could, that is equally civil rights issue.

    Now, you may think it the most ludicrous thing in the world for "Bob" and "Bill" to want to marry, but many thought it equally absurd, for "Bob" and "Jane" to want to marry.


    In a just and fair society, we don't base rights on whether a majority see your choice as absurd or not. Instead, we see to assure that YOU get to live your life freely, and that so do OTHERS.

    Any exceptions to that have got to be necessary, for example, to protect others, or to prevent harm.

    This exception is not necessary.

  • GLBT's Target??
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not that strident in its beliefs on homosexuality. In fact, they counsel full fellowship for celibate homosexuals. There is a congregation in Salt Lake City composed of non-practicing homosexuals who wish to keep Christs commandments.

    So far, no gay-rights activist has had the fortitude to burn a Quran on the doorstep of a militant mosque where imams advocate the stoning of homosexuals (even celibate ones).

    Oh, I forgot, criticizing Moslems is off-limits for the Politically Correct.

  • Not funny
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:56 a.m.

    Let me get this straight ...

    We were attacked on 9/11 by Islamic terrorists. Innocent people died. News cameras showed people dancing in the streets in Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Syria and other countries who received billions in foreign aid and trillions in the form of price gouging on oil for years.

    Rather than an apology, the Islamic world celebrated, made additional threats and/or blamed someone else.

    And the left wing in our country wants to understand them.

    But these same liberals condone violence and persecution against Mormons because 52.5% of a state (where Mormons are 2% of the population) voted that marriage means 1 man, 1 woman.

    Persecution is nothing new to the Mormons. It is easy to hate a people who are in general happy, successful and friendly - if not a times superficial. Missouri rednecks (and they were rednecks by any definition) killed and hurt Mormons until they deserted their homes and land with no compensation.

    When I read the escalating rhetoric, I hope cooler heads will prevail. Otherwise, this could escalate into right vs left Civil War with many lives lost for nothing.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:54 a.m.

    To the 7:42 commentator,
    When picketers make false claims that Mormons practice polygamy. When they shout "Mormon Scum". They have crossed any lines of acceptable behavior. Maybe their actions are not illegal, but they are clearly wrong.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    To the 7:35 commentator,
    there is a big difference between peacefully expressing your opinions, and the beating of your oponants, desctruction of their property and outright intimadation that has been engaged in by the anti-8 people.
    I think it is wrong to force someone out of their job because they exercised their right to political participation. However it is even more wrong to force someone out of their job because of the Church they belong to. The latter is what the anti-8 people are trying to do to the CEO of Black and Decker.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:47 a.m.

    To the 7:25 commentator,
    The practice of plural marriage is suspended because the Lord has forbidden it. Legalizing it does not make it an acceptable practice in the Church. The Lord, not the supreme court, decrees when plural marriage is allowed and when it is not.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:42 a.m.

    To the 3:14 commentator,
    Iraq was never a religious war. Saddam Hussein was a secular leader. The goals of regime change are inherently establishing a secular government.
    Even the Shiah/Sunni divide in Iraq is only vaguely religious. It is more of an ethnic issue. People are not trying to force others to their form of belief, but to get more power for their group.
    If religion caused war than the worst wars in the 20th Century would not have been started by the a-religious Nazis.

  • Arizona
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:41 a.m.

    "This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

    Am I saying that the voting rights of people of religion are in danger? Of course not! But there is occurring a discounting of religiously based opinions. There may even be a covert and subtle disqualification of some for certain offices in some situations, in an ironic irreligious test for office.

    Before the ultimate victory of the forces of righteousness, some skirmishes will be lost. Even in these, however, let us leave a record so that the choices are clear, letting others do as they will in the face of prophetic counsel.

    There will also be times, happily, when a minor defeat seems probable, but others will step forward, having been rallied to rightness by what we do. We will know the joy, on occasion, of having awakened a slumbering majority of the decent people of all races and creeds which was, till then, unconscious of itself."

    Neal A. Maxwell, BYU Devotional Address, October 1978 "

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:31 a.m.

    Ted . . . yer a knucklehead but we still love ya.


    Joshuall

  • Kevin
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:30 a.m.

    OK. I've reached my saturation point for negativity, my own and others. It's time to chill out. I'm going to do what I can to promote homosexual marriage, but I'm all done being upset with people.

    Christmas is here (skeptics love Christmas too). Ski season is here. It's time for fun. I wish everyone - friend and foe alike - an outstanding weekend.

  • JImmy
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:25 a.m.

    Lets face it. The LDS are an easy and politically acceptable target for bigotry. Those Catholics, Latinos and Africa-Americans who were much more numerous in the pro-prop 8 vote (LDS represented about 2% of the voters) are protected by political correctness. It's selective indignation.

  • Deb
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:16 a.m.

    Also, the church didn't fund the money for prop 8. People did. I was never asked to put my money into the funding, so it wasn't even something that was expected of us. The church never forced us to vote a certain way either. We were asked to read and understand the prop and then vote according to what we felt was the best decision. Never at any time did I feel like the church was speaking for me or forcing me to vote a certain way. I made my decision for myself, for my own reasons, for what I felt to be the best decision. It was nothing AGAINST gays, it was feeling that marriage should be between a man and a women. My belief in God, according to me, and what I feel he stated by placing only a man and a women first on earth. To me that set the stage of how this life was to be. If you choose to be gay - your choice and I will not rag on you for that, but marriage is a whole different thing for me.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:15 a.m.

    Keep boycotting us. It only strengthens our resolve as a religion and people. We have been here before and we will be here again.

    Someone has to stand up for the truth and what is right.

    This has all been prophesied from ancient times to the present.

    We're sorry if it hurts your feeling but we aren't going to change the truth to fit your lifestyle.

  • Boycott Everyone
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:14 a.m.

    Let's have every business post a sign that they either support same sex marriage or traditional marriage in their windows. Then we can all support or boycott the businesses that stand on our respective side. No fence sitting. Boycott anybody that does not display a sign.

  • BOM: Scriptures for our time
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:12 a.m.

    "And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building..."

    "And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female...; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit."

    "And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost."

    "And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building."

    "And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not."

    "...for as many as heeded them, had fallen away."

  • Linguist
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:08 a.m.

    I am a gay man, and I have been personally harmed by policies that have targeted gay people, and know other who have as well. I have been called more than my fair share of anti-gay epithets, despite the fact that I have never called others names or fought against their rights.

    I oppose vitriol, intolerance and violence period, both on principle and because they are really counterproductive as strategies.

    What saddens me is that many, including many of those now standing up for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Catholic Church, is that many only see the intolerance and fight it when it is directed against them.

    There has been ample vitriol, intolerance and, yes, violence, directed at innocent gay people for many centuries. I suggest the LDS Church include those innocent gay people front and center and point out the many outrageous and inexcusable actions taken to harm those gay people over time.

    Only then, perhaps, can we truly have a dialogue, and realize that we ALL deserve fair and equitable treatment-- even those most convinced they have right on their side.

  • Monkeybuttprotector
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:08 a.m.

    The gay community can NOT do whatever they want. Violence and intimidation has never been acceptable in this country. The NYT ad has created a opportunity for the Prop 8 Opposition to restore dignity, respect and relevance to their side by expelling and exposing those who have sought to intimidate or harm in the name of same sex marriage. You have the national stage, lets see what you do with it.

  • Deb
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:06 a.m.

    bgubler - The LDS didn't look for the victim role. It was given to them. There were so many people that passed prop 8, not just the LDS. It was many churchs that spent much time and effort into the passing. Infact, if it had been just the LDS it would not have passed. Please don't give us the credit for that, because that would be wrong to do. There where MANY. It would also be very arrogant for us that are LDS to think that we did it alone. We did not. We had many others helping that have their own beliefs. Others that don't agree with us on religious beliefs, but for one election we all stood on the same ground with the same belief in marriage. I also know many LDS that voted against prop 8. It was not a religion that passed this, it was a people. Many people of all back grounds and beliefs. Please just except that the PEOPLE spoke.

  • Re: Anon. @ 7:46 a.m.
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:05 a.m.

    You make it sound like the Mormons are in the minority: "the rest of us don't have to agree."

    The group that makes up "the rest of us" who don't agree with the Mormons are the clear minority. Mormons made up a rather small percentage of the voters that supported Prop 8. Go find someone else to badmouth.

  • Sashabill
    Dec. 6, 2008 9:04 a.m.

    I have an alternative suggestion for the same sex marriage crowd: Rather than spending time with half-way measures like picketing or blacklisting, why not round up the Mormon, Catholic, and other religious contributors to Prop 8 and burn them at the stake? This way we will know for sure how sincere the Politically Correct community is about such concepts as tolerance and diversity. Those measures worked pretty well during the Middle Ages when it came to dealing with Waldensians, Anabaptists, Wiccans, and other pesky religious minorities whose perspectives were not popular at the time.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:59 a.m.

    Where's the law? Why weren't arrests made? These goons were committing violence and breaking laws left and right, yet the police and law enforcement agencies just stood by and watched. It's no wonder we have lawlessness in this country.

  • David
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:58 a.m.

    David -

    Are you kidding me? What you just posted shows your ignorance.

    The Mormon church had NOTHING to do with the origination of Prop8. Prop8 was a ground roots effort by people of MANY different faiths in the State of California and was not directed by any one in Salt Lake City.

    It is true that once Prop8 was on the ballet that the Church encouraged its membership to support the ballet, as is their constitutional right, but for you to through out Prop8 as a document from the Mormons preaching hate only shows how ignorant and foolish you are...but I guess you are used to being seen as a fool.

  • Cinaed67
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    I have a real hard time understanding any of these accusations against the LDS people! ? What is it hey actually did that ANYBODY isn't doing themselves? They expressed their right of opinion. They came together as a group. They were not in this by themselves. Can't the same be said for the opposing factor? They are expressed their right of opinion too, right? they voted. THEY LOST!!! They gays most certainly are a group, and they came together to fight AGAINST something they believe in!!! From my point of view...I live in CA. I am gay. I am LDS. I voted YES on Prop 8!! OK so what does that make me? I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what I do and have done! I want equality rights for ALL, just like the rest of those are fighting for SSM. I just believe they 'gay agenda' picked the wrong battle. Try ASKING for what you want, instead of trampeling & shreading the RIGHTS and beliefs of another!! I believe YOU are the ones that have turned this into a fight! BACK OFF! Let's find a common ground and work together!

  • bilbo
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    Anonymous...goodby!!!
    I don't believe you are, or ever were, LDS.

    BTW: "..Why do Mormons always think....".
    how are Mormons different than any of the other churches that are based on the conservative, moral precepts of the Bible?.
    Are not Catholic, Baptist, Assembly, Lutheran and many more AGAINST gay marriage?
    oh, please, please let me know how we are SOOO NARROWMINDED in comparison with the other conservative-values-based denominations and religions.

    as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord... I'll stick around...can't beat the truth.

  • DH
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:37 a.m.

    There are some very disappoinitng comments on these pages. Much hate is being spewed. I would remind people on both sides that name calling and insults are no different than what those carrying out crimes are doing. It is hatred all the same.

    People disagree on things all the time. That is not the problem, hatred is the problem. The majority in the gay community would not support what is being done by a few. While we stand up for what we believe to be right let us not stoop to the level fo those who seek only to hurt and attack.

    I think that is what a God would expect of us.

  • FaithNoMo
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:35 a.m.

    It's nice to see how the Church, or this paper, tries to mislead as if the New York Times is blasting the ad. Typical! If it was against the Church you can bet New York Times would be no where in the heading.

  • Marion
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:33 a.m.

    I don't understand why the Mormon Church is the big target when a coalition of many people, some representing Churches, organized the campaign to pass Proposition 8. The percentage of Mormons in California is small and not all Mormons voted "For" the proposition. There are millions of non-Mormons who voted to "For" it. The election is over. Let's move on. The majority of the voters have spoken.

  • CP
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:18 a.m.

    I'm very happy to see that there are others who stand by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and are not afraid to do so. I used to think that those who are gay were a quiet sort of people, but I have to say my opinion has changed alot. they have shown that they are very violent and they don;t care who they hurt or what they destroy! Well, all's I can say is, their day of judgement will come.

  • Miami
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:09 a.m.

    Mormons didn't decide the election, 52% of Californians did. I just don't understand why that is so hard to understand for some of you?!

  • Jagger
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:04 a.m.

    Joshua ben Josephs's statement was one of the stupidest things I have ever read!

  • des
    Dec. 6, 2008 8:00 a.m.

    The mormon church exercised it's right to fund prop 8. Now they are experiencing the protest of those unhappy with the outcome. The protesters are exercising their right to do so.

    But sending white powder is not protesting it's threatening and is not acceptable.

    However when their is a call to 'ban' the protest that's unacceptable too. You have no right to ban anything.

    The anger of the church is that they have no power over non-members. They can ex members but all they can do to in response to the protests is whine. The members of the church just can't believe it doesn't have the absolute power it has in Utah. Too bad. Get over it.

  • howcome
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:52 a.m.

    our country is falling apart, why ? just keep
    reading what people are writing.

  • JW
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:50 a.m.

    To Joshua ben Joseph:
    Please explain for all of us what rights the MORMONS! Have taken away from you? The only right that we have that you don't is to have the word "marriage" attached to our sacred unions. Find another word and we are equal. I can't believe all of this is happening over one word. You are acting like a spoiled brat on the playground!!! We could care less what you do just find another word. What is so difficult about that?
    WERE THERE NO OTHER GROUPS THAT voted for Prop 8? YOu people show your ignorance by constantly attacking the mormons when they had so little to do with the results. We may be the pharasees but really??? do you think The Savior would agree with what the way the LDS church has been treated? Get real? Ye who cast the first stone...... I

  • Anonymous at 1:46
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:46 a.m.

    I totally agree. The LDS church is trying to control others.

    If they want to believe gay marriage is wrong, that is their right, however the rest of us don't have to agree.

  • Cats
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:45 a.m.

    TO Henry Drummond: There are none so blind as those who will not see.

  • To Matt Johson
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:42 a.m.

    Disturbing a church service is wrong, picketing is not. Similar to the LDS church saying they are excercising their freedom of speech, so are the picketers. However, interupting a church service, vandalism and violence cross the line.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:39 a.m.

    "Why do Mormons always think they have to define everything and decide what who can do what and how?" was asked in in first comment.

    A better question would be:

    Why do gays and lesbians think they have the right to redefine Marriage and then impose their definition on society thus threatening religious freedom?
    (Certain Catholic services in Massachusetts had to close because they would not help gay/lesbian couples adopt children etc)

    Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue. Not in the least.
    Seeking to redefine the marriage based on ones personal PREFERENCE (be they born with it or be it acquired) is NOT a CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. No way.

  • Seriously
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:38 a.m.

    Anyone, not just LDS people, who donated to fight same gender marriage cannot be suprised when people fight back. I am not even gay, and I will not support any business that donated money to defeat gay marriage. I don't want my money to fund the hate. That is my right. Those who are against gay marriage should make up for it by supporting those same businesses. It should really be a wash.

  • Cats
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:36 a.m.

    To Anonymous 1:46: I'm sure it is a very great sacrifice for you to leave the Church. No doubt you haven't had anything to do with the Church for many years. This is a really great excuse for you to make a big statement, isn't it.

  • What's the deal?
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:35 a.m.

    Look, the GLTG community has the right to do what they want. They have every right to the group that **financed** taking their rights away.

    The Beckett Group has the right to do what they want.

    Mormon members financed Prop 8, so they are targeted more. Other church has been picketed as well. As Americans we tend to make our voices heard with our money. While I don't support boycotting someone just because they are LDS, I fully support boycotting someone because they donated to Prop 8. Political donations are made public and many people donated under the name of their business.

    At the end of the day, both groups are simply using their freedom of speech and their rights to make their own decision.

  • Cats
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:32 a.m.

    I think it's so funny the way the GLBT community has received it's talking points from GLBT Central. They have been instructed to use the word "HATE" at every turn. They manage to insert "HATE" into every sentence every time they run into anyone who has the slightest disagreement with them.

    If they lose an election it is "HATE." If any one disagrees with their lifestyle, it is "HATE." If anyone doesn't like their choice of wardrobe, it is "HATE." If anyone disagrees with their choice of music, it is "HATE." "HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE."

    You think you can use the word "HATE" to intimidate and threaten anyone who doesn't want you to destroy true marriage and traditional family values. Well, guess what, WE WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED. We will continue to fight for what's right. And we are NOT AFRAID. "They that be with us are greater than they that be against us."

  • Fools
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:32 a.m.

    Honestly, you need to stop trolling this web site and go read the full NYT ad. It was well written and supports all religious faiths from back-lash of expressing their constitutional rights. www.nomobveto.org Once you've read it, then maybe you can post something intelligent.

    Gay people have rights too, but the fact of the matter is the proposition won due to having enough supporting votes. Don't like it? Then next time get off your duff and vote for what you believe. But at the end of the day, the ad is great and so is our freedom.

  • 30-2
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:30 a.m.

    In a game of any sport this would be considered a pretty sound blowout.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:25 a.m.

    Lets not fool ourselves, the Mormon opposition to gay marriage has little to do with homosexuality. In truth it has everything to do with that old bugaboo, plural marriage. If state courts rule that gay marriage is constitutional, how long will it be before they see that prohibiting adults from consensually entering in to plural marriages is also a violation of basic human rights,(an argument that the church once made on behalf of plural marriage) whether these rights arise out regligious practice or contract law. That is what is really bugging the church. What then do they do with the "suspended" practice if it becomes legal? How many married members will want to once again "espouse a virgin"

  • KM
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:22 a.m.

    "until we all come to a unity of the faith." I am encouraged to see the words of the apostle Paul being fulfilled in our time. More and more Christ-believing people will unify when push comes to shove.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:06 a.m.

    Once again, the church took a stand. Took the opinion they're entitled to, and forcibly put it into the public domain.
    I kind of like the ire directed towards the church.

  • re:Joshua ben Joseph
    Dec. 6, 2008 7:04 a.m.

    Your scripture work is horrible at best. Do you really want to bring the scriptures out on this subject? If you do this gay-lesbian movement is over before we get out of the books of Moses. Read all of the scriptures rather than manipulating one verse to show your disdain for LDS members.

  • Nona Adam
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:58 a.m.

    I think a lot of us are missing the point. Isn't it a matter of what God says? This is his world. He set the rules.

  • Eugene
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:49 a.m.

    As a Mormon, I am always amazed at the evil statements still being tossed out against Mormons. Never in my life have I been taught in the Church to be this vile, evil, mean person that anti-Mormons represent us to be.

    Mormons in good standing are taught to be moral, loving, charitable, honorable and many other positive things, but they are also asked to be active in their community and government as a force for good. Prop 8 was an attack on tradional marriage which is a moral issue that most Mormons understand.

    There has been no Mormon attack on gays, no protesting of a gay-owned business, no attack on gay churches, no Mormon sent powder-filled envelopes with hopes of raising terror. Mormons are taught to love and tolerate all people from all walks of life. The fact that they don't believe in the gay lifestyle does not mean they hate gays.

    I know several people who are gay and they are my friends. I do not hate them and I do tolerate the fact they are gay, but that does not mean I have to accept a government sanction of eliminating traditional marriage. Civil unions, yes.

  • TJ Parker
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:38 a.m.

    Gee, who was it who said "as ye sow, so shall ye reap"? The Mormon Church helped to sponsor publicly aired commericals about their point of view, and we should stop publicly expressing our point of view? They organized and sent volunteers to our homes, door to door. It is now an offense that we bring our point of view to their doorstep?

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:22 a.m.

    It was not that long ago that the homosexuial lifestyle was not considered by anyone to be "normal" At the current time, there are many pedophiles that alternative sexual preferences. Should they start to be considered "normal" because they cannot help their sexual preferences? Should it be accepted, they be allowed to marry their young, innocent victims because they did not choose their lifestyle? I think not. Anything that waters down marriage to allow another alternative lifestyle for one group, could potentially water down marriage for any future alternatice lifestyle, even one that the majority of people consider abhorrent.

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:20 a.m.

    re: Henry Drummond | 12:39 a.m.
    No Henry - you dont understand.
    If gays or LDS state their opinion - that is freedom of speech. If gays or LDS engage in vandalism, intimidation or McCarthyism - that is a threat to freedom of speech.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 6:04 a.m.

    The Beckett ad condemned terrorizing a place of worship. How can anyone possibly criticize them for doing that, or for thinking that terrorizing a place of worship is somehow OK? I'm Jewish, and I'm sickened by some of the recent attacks on the LDS church. I hope whoever sent the white powder to the two Mormon temples is caught and prosecuted. These are hate crimes. Simply being in favor of Prop 8 is not a hate crime.

  • I'm still waiting
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:56 a.m.

    for the demonstrations in South Central L.A. and the boycotts of Black and Hispanic businesses. What those crying about Prop. 8 do NOT want to talk about is that that 70% of Blacks and Hispanics voted for Prop 8. They obviously do not consider this to be a civil rights issue. They do not consider gays and lesbians to be their "civil rights" brethren at all. Not wanting to confront such a devastating reality, the LDS church is targeted instead. How ridiculous is that?

  • Free Society
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:53 a.m.

    "Separation of Church and State" does not mean that people of faith and moral principles, churches or religious organizations stand back and do nothing.
    ..read and listen to the Founders.. it is the duty of a free people to maintain a moral society in order to remain free .. this nation is founded upon the principles of the ten commandments ...not any State sponsored Church but on a moral basis written in the laws and Constitution...without that foundation then there is chaos and the society will fail...the basis of our free society is the individual and marriage ordained between a man and a women for the creation of families and children which continues society...it is based on rights of life,liberty and property that are God given...the Founders were concerned that "the people" would not be good (moral)enough to maintain their freedom. They knew that if people of faith do not stay vigilant then society will unravel as every other civilization had decayed .. gays have been allowed to live a lifestyle freely in America but the basis of laws for the preservation of this nation must be kept or we will all lose our freedom.

  • To Anonymous | 1:46
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:41 a.m.

    The control you speak of is called "self-control." And, if you don't want any part of it, perhaps it's best you don't want to be part of the Church anymore (if you ever were).

  • Kitchy
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:40 a.m.

    Why not keep quiet and let people think you are intelligent instead of opening your mouths and removing all doubt. Everyone has an opinion! Usually stupid! Shut up about this already!

  • Whats in a name?
    Dec. 6, 2008 5:14 a.m.

    How strange it is to me that people fight over names. The Gays want the right to be called Married. Well why dont we just give it to them and then call a relationship between a man and a woman a Lawful Union. Guess what would happen then?? The gays would then demand the right to have a Lawful Union and forget the marriage title. Hey everyone, names are just that, everyone has equal rights now under the law so leave it all alone. Anyone remember the film the Life of Brian where the guy wanted the right to have babies??? I mean he knew that he couldnt have them but he wanted it known that it was his right if he could. Right now the whole planet is in that movie.

  • Bert
    Dec. 6, 2008 4:37 a.m.

    I am glad to belong to a Church that teaches clear principles of morality and does not bend to accommodate the wishes of those who would choose a different course, just to try and please everyone.

    It seems fair to me that the Church states its position and supports measures that uphold that position. It would be a fairly meaningless institution if it did anything less (and there are plenty of those 'feel good' institutions around)

    Disagree by all means, but please understand, that the principles of morality which underpin the Church's position are determined by God.

    Those, member and non-member, who struggle with this firm/consistent stand can find peace by going to the real source of the Church's position - in sincere prayer.

  • xscribe
    Dec. 6, 2008 3:14 a.m.

    "Religious wars are wrong" quoted the article. Isn't that what the majority of wars have been about? The war is Iraq is a religious war, with the US saying our god is better or more real than your god, and vice versa. Religian causes war!

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:46 a.m.

    Why do Mormons always think they have to define everything and decide who can do what and how, etc. It is not my idea of a church I want to be part of any more. It seems like a group of people who want to leave others out and exercise control over others. I really don't need to be a part of this kind of control.

  • Matt Johnson
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:45 a.m.

    May I suggest that opponents of Prop 8 find other places to demonstrate? I don't like feeling threatened when I go to church. I go their for peace. Only in the most barbaric of wars do enemies target each others places of worship. This behavior is very unamerican and in fact illustrates the worst in human behavior. It needs to stop.

    I go to my church as a sanctuary from the world. It is the reason people have faith, to dedicate their lives to something greater than themselves and refocus on loving God and your neighbor. I recognize many people do not share my same faith or even have a faith, but they should still respect the faith of others.

    A few weeks ago I saw a video of gay people running into a Christian church yelling "It's okay to be gay!" They threw out flyers and one couple even started making out in front of the congregation. This was in the middle of a sermon and the preacher anounced "this is not planned...we don't know whats going on." That is despicable behavior and reflects poorly on the gay community.

  • The NIT
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:19 a.m.

    To "Nephi" and other poor mislead knuckleheads - STOP with the "denying my rights" language - no rights were or are being denied - NONE.

    And to you others that like to quote scripture against the LDS Church - give it up, you don't know what you're talking about or who's church you're criticizing.

    To the homosexuals - what a bunch of hypocrites who think tolerance is a one-way street. The PEOPLE of California - and many other states have spoken - marriage should and must be between a man and a woman. Good thing two, because at least in this one area the people's position is in harmony with God's.

  • jaybs
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:15 a.m.

    I still regret that the way this was handled by the LDS Church it seemed to become far too political.

    It is time to read St Matthew Chapter 7.

  • Mormons look to your history
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:09 a.m.

    of persecution and learn the lesson of tolerance. Just 'cause your neighbors weren't tolerant of your polygamist ways doesn't make it right for you to turn around and be the bully.

    speaking as a 5th generation Mormon i'm very disappointed in the church's push to overthrow someone else's rights. love your neighbors people. don't believe the lies that gay marriage will affect you or your marriage at all. the church operates successfully in countries that already have gay marriage.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 6, 2008 1:00 a.m.

    Gay marriage is coming. One funeral at a time.

  • Biggest predictors of Yes on 8..
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:49 a.m.

    besides evangelical Christians and republicans were people who had less than a college education or in the low income bracket (according to the latest Public Policy Institute of California poll). Race wasn't a predictor in voting for prop 8. Blacks voted "no" if they were educated and/or in a higher income bracket and vice versa, poor less-educated whites voted "yes."

  • re: Joshua Ben Joseph
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:43 a.m.

    Are you kidding me? You use the bible as your defense of homosexual marriage? I hate to break the news to you bud, but the bible condemns homosexuality. Any practicing homosexual who calls themselves christian are only mocking the God they profess to believe in.

  • SAREN
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    You said it amazingly well Eric Larsen...stop the bashing, live the way we are taught and do not resort to their level. I so agree.

  • In Los Angeles
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:39 a.m.

    Thanks to the Beckett Fund for their ad, I wonder if they will also run it in the LA TIMES, it is here where it is really needed.

  • Henry Drummond
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:39 a.m.

    Let's see if I understand this.

    If Mormons direct their considerable resources against Gays to deny them the right to marry that is "free speech" and "religious liberty".

    If the gay disagrees with them then that is "mobocracy", "thugary", and "intimidation".

    Now I understand.


  • k
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:35 a.m.


    It is possible to love someone and not approve of their lifestyle. I have plenty of gay friends and I may not care for their choices but it is their choice. I can't believe the way the word hate is being thrown around. I think the GLBT community has some of the most fantastic people Salt Lake has to offer. I have met many who are kind loving and extremely generous.
    I think it's unfortunate that the behaviors of a few is causing people to call them terrorist. There are some hateful people out there. Overall I see two sides who can work together and get along just fine. I know I'm doing it.

  • Jeff
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:26 a.m.

    The Mormon church had enough guts to defend prop 8. Its too bad the LGBT community has fallen to this level. Sadly they continue to show selfishness as they mock others. Everyone has there own opinions! That is what makes America, America! Its good to see people like the Beckett Fund standing up for them.

  • What?
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:25 a.m.

    Re: Joshua ben Joseph
    What civil rights are you talking about?

  • Linus
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:17 a.m.

    To bk: So sorry that you think the Constitution of the United States contains something you call "the separation of State with Moral religious issues." It contains no such provision. What the Constitution does contain is a provision the prevents the government from establishing a state religion and prevents the government from interfering in the free practice of religion.

    There is no Constitutional provision that even prevents -- or even discourages -- churches or religions from throwing the full weight of their influence into the democratic processes by which the people govern themselves in America.

    You might be surprised to learn the the phrase "separation of church and state" does not exist anywhere in the Constitution of the United States. The document protects our freedom of religion. It does not stifle it!

  • Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:13 a.m.

    Too many of the comments on both sides of this issue are disheartening. I have worked hard for many years to defend the traditional family. I have also employed and worked beside many homosexuals in the entertainment industry here and in New York City. I have never discriminated against them. I hired them because they were the best at what they did.

    They knew I was Mormon. They asked about my beliefs. I told them it was true that my religion does not support their lifestyle, but I promised to treat them with respect and as I would anyone else, and I did.

    I explained it this way: I expect you to keep your lifestyle to yourself homosexual or heterosexual - and not to proselytize the young people that come to study in my program. That would be inappropriate. They understood and had no problem with it.

    However, when it comes to defining marriage, we owe it to our children to provide the optimal environment for their upbringing. Virtually every social science study has shown that children fare better with both a mother and a father.

  • Civil Right?
    Dec. 6, 2008 12:09 a.m.

    Would someone please let me know where "marriage" is listed as a civil right. We are throwing around these terms like everything is a civil right. What's next?

  • To Battman:
    Dec. 5, 2008 11:40 p.m.

    Please allow me to help you understand that your tone of voice is not what one would consider an "adult" persuasive statement. You may want to re-evaulate how to talk to others before you broadstroke such caustic accusations.

  • bk
    Dec. 5, 2008 11:29 p.m.

    What about the separation of State with Moral religious issues? why would the state want to change the foundation and pillars that the constiution stands on. The Fathers that signed this great document told us that when these pillars fall so will Democracy.

  • To the gay community
    Dec. 5, 2008 11:29 p.m.

    Please stop saying that every opinion that disagrees with yours is founded on nothing but hate and a desire to rob you of a "basic human right."

    There is no evidence, precedent, or tradition that permission to marry a person of the same gender is a basic human right.

    California's Supreme Court misused their authority to overturn a vote by the people of the state of California, which is shared by 29 other states across the USA. Prop 8 reaffirmed the will of the people on this issue.

    The gay community, in a matter of six months, used this ruling to redefine "basic human rights" to include same-gender marriage.

    One ruling in one state, contrary to tradition, history and a sizable majority of the rest of the US does NOT grant gay marriage the status of a "basic right."

    Marriage has always been and is still defined in 29 American states as between a man and a woman. Be happy with civil unions. Religious people don't opposes you on this. Stop the violence, boycotts and intimidation and move on with your lives. Let us continue to use the term marriage as we have for the past millenia.

  • Hey
    Dec. 5, 2008 11:15 p.m.

    Don't you think that people were "angry" or at least very annoyed when a few California judges over turned the will of the majority of voters on the earlier vote?

  • Ken
    Dec. 5, 2008 11:13 p.m.

    The LDS church has dealt with adversity and persecution for most of its existence. We will come out stronger because of this experience with our heads held high

  • Becklock
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:44 p.m.

    To the monitors. You can keep censoring me, but as already stated, I am against violence. So this one is for you. Gay marriage will exist. Violence shouldn't happen. LDS supported and funded a repeal of marriage for gay people and some hate you for it and a very few get violent. Censor this one too, but it's a fact.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:42 p.m.

    To Speak Out at 9:17,
    I have to agree with you that mob retalition is wrong.
    However, the issue goes deeper. There are two boycott movements that are so irrational that they move beyond even anger at others for political participation.
    The by far least logical is the boycott of Utah. Since they are calling for the boycott of Sundance merely because it occurs in Utah they have gone from attacking people for political particiopation to attacking people for living in the wrong state. This is clearly out of line.
    The other is the call to boycott all "Mormon owned businesses". This includes Marriot. Beyound the fact that there is no evidence any Marriot contributed in any way to the Yes on 8 proposal, this is even more questionable because Marriot is a publicly traded company.

  • misinformed
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:38 p.m.

    Hmm, it is interesting that the comments reflecting the most misinformation also exhibit the worst writing skills. It seems the writers show the same disregard for researching accurate and unbiased information as they do for using the correct language skills that they were taught in school. I wonder how often in life they are summarily (perhaps unfairly) dismissed as unintelligent?

  • God bless you
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:38 p.m.

    Seth, disagreement does not equal hate. Check Webster on it. There just might be other reasons, even religious ones for opposing gay marriage. What if this were actually more about love than it is about hate? You may not agree, but you don't have to. People see things differently all around us. Don't cop the easy out of calling it "hate". You know better than that.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:35 p.m.

    To the 8:13 commentator,
    I reject that use of terms like "being gay". They are inherently inprecise. I hold that homosexuality is a sin. However, as you allude to, this is different than having same-gender attraction.
    However, to some radicals if you state that those with same-gender attraction should not act on it you are creating a "double standard".
    The problem is that the Lord has one consistent standard. Only sexual relations inside a marriage between a man and a woman are acceptable, everything else is a violation of God's law.
    The real problem is that some believe that sex is a fundamental right instead of something that should be inside marriage.

  • Becklock
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:32 p.m.

    Hello.

  • uritaata
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:29 p.m.

    Respect please respect...

    Bravo Becket and NYT to publish such clarion call and defending our constitutional rights to share our views publically,express our values, and the right to choose--through vote--the rules that will define our society.

    I had/have several friends who are and were gay or lesbians==some of them LDS. Though we did not share the same principles and disagreed that issue we never were disrepectful one toward the other.

    I do not agree with all laws and those I don't like, I want them changed. Sometimes I am frustrated, Noneless I agree and support the legislative process on which our society operates.

    Threat and intimidation is not part of my values and should not be tolarated.






  • Mona
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:15 p.m.

    RE: 'one of the few':

    You are mistaken if you think that when a church speaks out about its beliefs, that it violates 'separation of church & state.' 'Separation of church & state' does not require individuals or an organization to sit back with zipped lips. Freedom of speech is alive and well in the USA.



  • Ing
    Dec. 5, 2008 10:14 p.m.

    Shouldn't waste my time, cause odds are no one will pay attention...but here goes.

    The comments here keeps veering away from the fundamental fact behind this article:

    The ad in the NY Times is NOT about who is right or wrong in the California Prop. 8. vote.

    It is about the disturbing actions of a number of people who have harassed, attacked, and threatened Mormons because the LDS church encouraged its members to support Proposition 8.

    Those actions are despicable and unjustifiable, no matter who is did it or what side the issue they're on. It's about time somebody besides the Mormons themselves stood up against the outright thuggery that's been going on.

  • Peace
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:59 p.m.

    All humans should seek peace in the world. Any activist groups who produce violence to protest something is breaking the law, and is violating the rights of others of free speech. If the gay community were democrats would they protest all the people who voted for McCain. Same difference. Any vote is voicing a belief, or voice in a democratic country regardless of what the vote is about or for whome it was for. I am quite perflexed that the Governor of CA has not condemed these attacks on the LDS Church. If the LDS church were attacking the gays, I bet he would be the first to condeme. Step up Governor for your citizens of CA.

  • vaase
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:56 p.m.


    Jabba! my friend, do not talk about any subject that you do know about. The LDS church is founded on the foundation of Apostles and a Prophet, the Chief cornerston himself is the Savior, Jesus Christ. I do believe that cults do not have this kind of unending leadership period.

  • David
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:54 p.m.

    To Greg - Northern California,

    I will give yo proof of hate and disrespect towards the gay and lesbian community: Proposition 8.

    That is certainly ONE SINGLE DOCUMENT that PROVES the hatred and disrespect of gays and lesbians.

    YOU are looking like the fool. But I'm sure you are used to that...

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:51 p.m.

    I am a stunch supporter of the Becket Fund, I may have even given money to them, I really don't remember. They have a monthly email that I get.
    They are among the most true defenders of religious freedom. They have stood against attempts to stop the building of a Sikh Temple in the Yuba City area and to stop the conversion of a no longer used convent in suburban Philadelphia into a Jewish Synagogue. They also stood with the LDS Church in its attempt to build a chapel in West Lynn, Oregon.
    No group has been more diligent in advancing the RLUIPA and the right of people to practice their religion as they and not just the government sees fit. Unlike many, they understand that most religions need a place to practice, and that religions and not the government have a right to decide what is a religious matter in architecture.

  • Jabba - Seth - Ted
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:24 p.m.

    You claim that Mormons are preaching hate and disrespect towards the GLBT community.

    What is your proof?

    I challenge you to show me ONE single document, article, message or talk given by any Mormon official calling on its members to show hate towards any group. The only group in this whole event showing HATE are the FEW extreme gay activists (notice how I did not roll the whole GLBT group under the bus).

    So before any of you speak up again, please do so with some evidence, otherwise you simply look like fools.

    Greg - Northern California

  • Battman
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:18 p.m.

    Stop it already. Mormons trying to justify their stance looks like hate. Gays attacking mornons looks like hate. Neither of you are above the other. From these comments neither represent Christ and his teachings. This is very very sad. You should all stop posting and look within yourselves on how to make this better rather than beating each other up. This is a sad representation of each culture.

  • Speak out
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:17 p.m.

    Any church has the Constitutional right to speak out on a political issue. And members of any particular church can choose to follow their churches views or not. Illegal mob retaliation against those who are peaceably expressing their views is just that- illegal. The American political process allows for freedom of expression and requires tolerance of views that might be different from your own. But anarchy can never be tolerated.

  • Eric Larsen
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:17 p.m.

    LDS members: please listen to the leaders and refrain from intimidating, demeaning, or harassing the LGBT community. Our purpose is to promote morality while maintaining civility.

    There is a time and a place to voice our opinions--the democratic process of voting. We can be steadfast without backbiting or denigrating those who don't agree with us.

    Thank you, Beckett Fund, for placing your name on something so controversial. I appreciate you standing up for what you and I believe to be right.

  • One of the few
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:09 p.m.

    RE: Joshua ben Joseph and Seth--The LDS Church is/was against Prop 8 not to take away the civil rights of homosexuals, but because they believe in what the Scriptures say; that marriage is between one man and one woman. The church does not condone sex outside of marriage--FOR ANYONE--thus their stand. They will tell you that they condemn the sin and not the sinner.

    I am a member of the LDS church and I think what they did was wrong. They forgot about the "Separation of Church and State". and I believe they made a big mistake in taking a public stand. You must remember, however, that it was ultimately the people that voted--not the church. Just because the LDS church is more vocal about their beliefs shouldn't make them a target for violence. The Catholic Church is also against Prop 8, but they have chosen to be more quiet about it.

  • Re: Jabba
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:08 p.m.

    You liberals always use the same irrational reasoning. Mormons don't hate. Voicing you opinion is not hate. If the Mormons were so hateful towards gays, then why do they allow gays to have one of the largest gay pride parades in the nation?

    Once again, voicing ones opinion is not hate. Hate is vandalizing someones property or church. Hate is sending white powder to someones home or place of worship. Hate is rioting when the vote doesn't go you way.

  • FACTS MATTER
    Dec. 5, 2008 9:06 p.m.

    It is interesting that gays say what happens in the bedroom is private and no ones business, but they sure love rubbing everyones nose in it.

    People who insist mormons were the major voters that pass prop 8 are thinking

    "DON'T BOTHER ME WITH THE FACTS, MY MIND IS MADE UP"

  • Thanks, Oh Boy
    Dec. 5, 2008 8:43 p.m.

    I agree with you 100% and appreciate your objective and personal perspective. I am a musician who grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and have many friends who are homosexual. They are also lucid, intelligent, and fully understand my right to believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Some agree with me, and some do not. We respectfully agree to disagree. But without question, the extreme gay activist groups are the most aggressive, destructive, and manipulative of ANY activist groups, and I'm including the extreme animals rights groups and extreme environmental groups. None of this aggression and truth-twisting is new to me: they are adept at accusing their so-called opponents (just those who disagree with them) of the very things that they are doing and saying.

  • Jabba
    Dec. 5, 2008 8:30 p.m.

    Why do mormons preach so much hate in the name of religion and democracy? Something is seriously wrong with the lds culture.

  • Come on Seth
    Dec. 5, 2008 8:28 p.m.

    Quit twisting words into something opposite.

    The only hate being espoused is by you.

    I am certain that the 52.5% of the California population that voted for Prop 8 harbored little if any hate toward their gay brothers and sisters. They were not voting out of hate, but only to defend the ancient and sacred title of marriage.

    Cease accusing me and my fellow LDS of hatred. I have not an ounce of hatred towards you or anyone in the GLBT.

    But, I am sick of you trying to make me something that I am not.

    You seem to gloat in calling good evil and evil as good. Sorry, but that is patently false.

    Steve

  • Moral Courage vs. Hate
    Dec. 5, 2008 8:28 p.m.

    The LDS church is not an organization that believes in hate. Hate is not the reason they are against same sex marriage. A moral belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman is not equivalent to hate. In a country where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are basic constitutional rights, no organization should be the victim of mob violence and intimidation for simply professing what it believes. Mormons are not going to change their minds, they will not back down. Mormons are tough and they are solid in what they believe. The definition of marriage and family is not going to change for members of the LDS church. Those that are vandalizing, protesting, boycotting, sending white powder etc. are more full of hate than any member of the LDS church that I have ever met. Mormons have been the target of hate before and I am sure they will be again in the future. Tar and feathers didn't stop Joseph Smith, Being driven from homes in the dead of winter didn't stop the early Mormon pioneers. Many have tried to stop the Mormons with hate before but they are still here.

  • jkh21
    Dec. 5, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    Thank you Becket Fund.
    Millions of citizens voted. A constitutional ammendment was the will of the majority of the people. Individual supporters (citizens) on boths sides of the issue raised millions. It's legal. I don't 'hate' anyone in the gay community for voting against Prop 8. It's their right to vote in accordance with their beliefs.Some have forgotten though, I have the same right to vote in accordance with my beliefs. I wasn't happy that the majority of the country voted in a liberal president, but there is no-one to blame and nothing to be done. It is one of the fundamental freedoms of our country to have a voice through a vote. Voting is not a hate-crime.

  • Ted and Seth
    Dec. 5, 2008 8:13 p.m.

    belong to another era when mob rule and bigotry were the accepted order of the day. Oh, and "Nephi" being gay is not a sin. Immoral conduct is. Get the difference? Probably not.

  • Nephi
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:56 p.m.

    If being Gay is a sin. Then is a matter between God and the sinner. Since when God needs your help. A secular government should provide equal rights to all citizens of the land.
    Mormons are a minority in California. But a loud minority that not only expresses its opinion but influence others through expensive advertisement.
    Mormons are not victims, you have not lost your rights.But you are using your influence to deprive a group of citizens of their human rights because they are not in agreement with your religion.
    You may use any excuse you want. You may even impose and shout your opinion. However, that will not make it right.
    How far can you push a group of people and expect no response?
    Social justice is a battle that is worthwhile to fight.
    Mormons are not the victims, you are just another component of legalized bigotry. Be Mormon be happy
    But let other people be themselves.
    A final question: How do you explain that are so many Gay men and women in perfect Mormon families?

  • Seth | 5:37 p.m.
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:55 p.m.

    Dude get serious! The only one spreading hate is the gay thugs and poor sport loser, just because things didn't go their way. The gays and lesbians have their civil union and should be happy with that crap. They get special right then a couple who does want to get married but want to live together.

    These gay activist are are trying to reinstate McCarthyism and harrassing individuals who voted yea on 8. This country was founded on freedom, Fee speech, free to vote, free to think, free to chose, and the people of California have spoken. We don't need the thought control police to run this country, which the gays are trying to do. Big Babies!

    Look up the Surfing Rabbi article "We are all Mormons" he put it perfectly about the gay community.

  • Wow
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:43 p.m.

    The homosexual mafia is out in force today commenting on this article.

    See you at the hetero pride parade Dec 27 in downtown SLC. Be there or be square.

  • Shaun
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:42 p.m.

    Three cheers for civilized discourse and peaceful democracy. Put them mobbers in jail!

  • Respectful question
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    Where is the PROOF that "the gays" are really behind those few "violent" acts that have been committed?

    Show me proof of ANY violence against another, and I'll denounce it.

    But Christians should be the FIRST to keep calm until the evidence is in.

  • Finally.......
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:12 p.m.

    Peace be to everyone. Let's move forward.

  • Rachel
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:11 p.m.

    Thank you, Becket Fund.

  • "hate"
    Dec. 5, 2008 7:07 p.m.

    Is becoming the most overused, misunderstood word in the English language. Why do you accuse me of "hate" for casting a vote that preserves marriage as what it has always been - between a man and a woman. This doesn't deny you of any right that I have. We can all marry a consenting adult of the opposite sex, as mother nature intended. If you demand a different kind of relationship (same sex), you can have it. You just don't get to call it marriage.

    Suppose the FLDS demanded that the state of Texas legally approve and sanction plural marriages (they have not made any such demands, by the way, they simply ask that the state not break into private property and seize their children). If someone voted against requiring the government to legally sanction their relationships as "marriage," would you call that person a bigot? This is no different.

  • Tom
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:38 p.m.

    Hollywood is banning companies who donated in favor of Proposition 8 (marriage between a man and a woman).

    I think it's time Religious groups ban Hollywood and all groups/companies that paid in favor to overturn Proposition 8 including people like Brad Pitt, Ellen Degenress

    I say we stop watching her TV show and his movies.

  • Dear Ted-
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:39 p.m.

    You have inspired me.
    I have sent a check for $10,000.oo
    to the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C.
    (I'm making the donation in your name).
    really.

  • No bigotry, please
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:37 p.m.

    As a gay man who is taking steps to overturn Prop 8, I denounce any kind of physical violence or actions against the LDS Church that are otherwise contrary to the democratic process.

    Marches, protests, raising public awareness --- yes ---

    Illegal actions and harrassment --- no.

    At the same time --- just as educated people in the LGBT community should take care that NOT all LDS are fundamentally for Prop 8, LDS people should realize that the physical illegal retribution is not the cause of most rational members of the LGBT community.

  • Blacks and Hispanics...
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:37 p.m.

    Since the gays are in the boycotting spirit, why don't you boycott all the black and hispanic owned businesses and entertainers? Didn't the vast majority of actual votes cast in CA came from those minority groups? The LDS faithful did donate much of their OWN money and time to getting the word out, but they ACTUAL votes came from the blacks and hispanics.

    When was the last time you did a peaceful protest in south Central, or Compton? Since y'all are such tough guys, why not wander down into those neighborhoods and spread your message of peace and tag a baptist church down there?

    Just a thought...

  • Jackie
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:32 p.m.

    No one is talking about why this even happend! California is BANKRUPT and it's the only way they could bring in millions of "new" government revenue. Lawyers like the ACLU went too Liberally slanted judges that illegally overturned LAWS that the California people had already voted on years ago making marriage between a man and woman only.

    Gays and Lebians have no civil rights - they choose that option the moment they opt in to being Gay or Lesbian.

    California needs $$$$ so they offered illegal weddings, illegal overturn of laws to drive both sides to dump money into their State.

    I am glad the LDS, Catholics, Evangelical, Jewish & Christian churches stood up for what 88% of Americans all believe. Marriage is between a man and a woman PERIOD.

    Why should 2% of the population get to make up their own rules.

  • Define Hypocrisy:
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:26 p.m.

    It's interesting that even though LDS members are typically known to vote Republican and conservative, when Barack Obama won the presidency, "Mormons" didn't form mobs protesting the African American community, demonstrate with parades against the African American community, threaten violence against all African Americans, and vandalize buildings that represent or are supported by the African American community.

    Why, then, is it OK for many in the Gay community (I certainly don't think all gay people have adopted this mob mentality), also a minority, to do all of those things to the LDS community? Isn't this a HUGE double-standard? Why is it OK for gay activists to now persecute the LDS Church? 6% of Californians are Mormon. 6%. Guess what people--it wasn't just the Mormons! If they're so persuasive, why isn't the percentage of Mormons MUCH higher in California! The LDS missionaries have been around for decades! The voice of ALL people spoke. The fact that it was highly publicized only increased awareness, which should have brought out those for and against prop 8. Deal with it and don't be hypocrites!

  • moral support
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:09 p.m.

    Prop 8 was passed by California's population. LDS members comprised only a very small percentage of voters. Becuase Obama was on the ballot, unprecedented numbers of blacks voted to support him. However, they overwhelmingly supported prop 8 as well, with 70% of them voting for the measure.

    I find the double standard of this country appalling. It is well documented that the LDS Church preaches love and respect for all people, including homosexuals. However, the Church has an obligation to uphold moral laws in government. The Book of Mormon warns time and again that when the people of this land support laws contrary to the commandments of God, He will withhold his protection and support. For this reason, Mormons support such issues, and it is shameful when they are threatened, demonized and attacked for voicing their beliefs in a legal and peaceful way. The intolerant, hateful (yes hateful!) behavior homosexual activists have demonstrated has proven that they only care to receive "tolerance" but do not want to give it.

    It is funny that they will also support showing diversity and peace towards radical Muslim terrorists, when adherents to the Islamic faith despise homosexuality and will not allow it in society.

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:06 p.m.

    re: Seth | 5:37 p.m.
    Let me paraphrase you. "I hate intolerant people" As soon as you understand what is wrong with that statement; then perhaps you will understand how you do the cause a disservice.

  • Boo hoo Mormons.
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:04 p.m.

    I'm with Ted...boycott Becket Fund. Surely there's a Mormon with his hand in that pot.

  • bgubler
    Dec. 5, 2008 6:00 p.m.

    I wondered how long it would take the LDS and Mormons to grab the victim role.

    Mormon's don't practice there religious fundamental doctrine regarding marriage. When a step towards a legal change that would step towards to a legal practice as to second sealing in DC Section 132 (polygamy) . One doctrine that is not currently practiced because of the law of the land. But claim to a necessary sacrament for Mormons to reach their highest level in heaven.

    This is the stuff that irony is made. Legal constitutional debates has been the gay marriage would lead to changing the laws of the land regarding polygamy. I don't think gay marriage is the real threat to the Mormons, whose modern covert action is to oppose legalized polygamy by putting it into state constitution...and pushing for US Constitutional changes...As marriage between One Man and One Women... Interesting....

  • Cal Andre RE: NY Times
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:50 p.m.

    Any newspaper that is in business is getting read.

    Among newspapers available to the very large number of New Yorkers, the Times is as likely as any (maybe more so) to be read by gay activists, if they read.

  • Re: NY Times
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:45 p.m.

    It's one of the largest newspapers in the US. Are you implying that the subscribers don't actually read it? Do they just donate their copies directly to the local elementary school to be used by the students on paper mache projects?

  • Schooner Sailer
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:38 p.m.

    Hey Josh Bengay Joe - The people (not just Mormans) of California have spoken. Prop. 8 passed. Twisting the Bible for the gay lifesyle doesn't change anything. If it's God's will, it will be done or the sinners will pay the consquences!!! Jesus came to show mankind the better way. The Jewish people had to accept his teachings. They thought they could make a mockery of the temple, guess what he cleaned it up twice. Make a mockery of the marriage covenent (one man, one woman)and be prepared to suffer God's wrath again at his choosing. Know your Bible my good friend. Sayeth the Preacher.

  • Seth
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:37 p.m.

    Mormons need to be stopped. There is no place for hate in this world, especially hate under the banner of religion. Mormons are a piece of work.

  • Paul in Mexifornia
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:33 p.m.

    The homosexuals claim foul play in that the conservative majority has imposed their will on the minority... WHAT OTHER PURPOSE DOES AN ELECTORAL PROCESS HAVE?! The proposition or candidate which gains the most votes, wins. Obama won because the majority of poeple voted for him. Prop 8 passed because more poeople voted yes than no. What is the problem? This is the essence of the democractic electoral system. These homosexuals are acting as if this is something new and that they are victims of an unfair process.

  • Article Title is Wrong
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:32 p.m.

    The title should read "Becket Fund Ad Denounces Violence Against LDS".

    Otherwise, we'd have to say "Deseret News Ad Has Shoes on Sale 50% Off"

  • Don
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:31 p.m.

    I'm glad someone is standing up for what is right and for moral beliefs. It is sad that gays resort to violence and assaults on the religious when they don't get their way. I just wanted to say thank you to all of those that voted to protect our families in the California election.

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:31 p.m.

    re: Joshua ben Joseph | 5:13 p.m.

    Actually gay zealots are unbelievable.
    They claim prop 8 supporters were liars for saying things such as; churchs would lose their tax exempt status. Yet when prop 8 passed, gay thugs began demanding that the LDS church lose its tax exempt status. Etc etc etc. All they have done is prove their critics absolutely correct.

    I am homosexual, but I do not call myself gay because I am disgusted by the hypocrisy of the gay community. The Human Rights Coalition, Equality Utah and other politically correct fundamentalist organizations do not represent me any better than the Ku Klux Klan represents me as a white person.

  • Dave
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:29 p.m.

    I'm glad someone is standing up to these gay activist (terrorists) that have been sending death threats, vandalizing property, forcing people to resign from their jobs because of their religion, and assaulting people of faith. These gay activists didn't get to alter the definition of marriage in the California election. The gay facade of tolerance has disappeared and now we know what gay activists really believe in anarchy and destroying morals and religion. Religion clearly explains homosexuality/sodomy is a sin. The wicked take the truth to be hard. This religious belief of homosexuality being an abomination is never going to go away. Gays are wasting their time attacking the basic morals of religious faith.

  • NY Times
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:20 p.m.

    I wonder if gay activists still read the NYT -- does anyone else?

  • Janie
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:20 p.m.

    These thugs need to be stopped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • California #1 @94131
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:15 p.m.

    Boycott everyone you wish, Ted. You'll end up having no one to business with, because no decent person of any race or religion would support violence, terrorism, or religious persecution.

    You'd better check on all your grocers, bankers, lawyers, dentists, optometrists, teachers in your children's school, car mechanics, landlords, employers, employees, co-workers, and everyone else in your life. Some of them might be Mormon, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. Some among them may have opposed the hatred being directed at Prop. 8 supporters and particularly Mormons. You surely wouldn't want to do business with such creatures, would you?

  • Joshua ben Joseph
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:13 p.m.

    Mormons are unbelievable!

    You rally to rip civil rights and equality away from a group of people who have nothing to do with you and your religion, and then you have the gall to call THEM "thugs"?

    You remind me of the Pharisees, to whom Jesus said (I paraphrase):

    "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees (and Mormons), hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven (and marriage) against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (see Matt. 23:13)

  • Skippy
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    I appreciate all that signed the document (ad) and paid for it.

  • Polish Men
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:07 p.m.

    It is easy for gays and lesbians to pick on the LDS Church - they know there will be no violence directed back at them. They should try messing with the Catholic Church and they would have Italian Mafia close the deal really quick...

  • To Ted 4:44 pm
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:06 p.m.

    Good. I will add the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C. to my list of organizations to support and finance. Gracias!

  • Canadiandy
    Dec. 5, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    Thank you Becket Fund! Mobocrats should be ashamed of themselves.

    Up with Democracy!

    Up with Morality and Dignity!

    Up with Marriage!

    As we say here in Canada, Peace, Order, and Good Government (and Socialism and Separatism are not good government)!

  • Cats
    Dec. 5, 2008 4:56 p.m.

    Thanks to all these good people who signed and paid for this ad. We must all stand shoulder to shoulder for what is right.

    These pro-gay marriage thugs have shown themselves for what they really are. It's so gratifying to see that many out there appreciate and support our efforts to uphold the sanctity of marriage and are defending us against these vicious attacks.

  • wondering?
    Dec. 5, 2008 4:53 p.m.

    there is a flip side to that story...I wonder if people targeted gays and lesbians and boycotted their places of business. I wonder how that would be viewed and yes we would probably hear a huge outcry for that reason and every other reason under the sun why they are so picked on. I dont have a opinion either way on prop 8. But I am getting tired of the griping and complaining. It is what it is... people have voted on it repeatedly through the democratic process. Dont complain because you don't like the outcome. Just move on.

  • California Supreme Court
    Dec. 5, 2008 4:48 p.m.

    Think the justices of the CSC will sign the petition also, as they seek for loopholes in the law to overturn the vote of the majority?

  • Ted
    Dec. 5, 2008 4:44 p.m.

    Great. Now I can add the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C. to my list of organizations to boycott and oppose.

    Thank you