You're asking the LDS to stay away from politics? But everyone else can
participate? Can you see how wrong that is?
God Bless the Beckett Fund for proferring such sound reason and good works in
their NY Times ad. What a stark constrast to the lawless opposing side. Both
sides have demonstrated their value by their actions.
Nice job on the story. I thought it was very well done. To Jens, look at the
hornets nest you stirred up. Now no one can seem to get along. Try harder to
keep the peace in the future.
re - "to realitycheck" 4:47pm 12/10"that's the devil's
doctrine"...what? wow - have they got you brainwashed, or what? I
lead a good life. I am kind and compassionate. If there is a heaven, I will
get there. My assumption is you will too. How does that have ANYTHING to do
with the devil?Now I know you will go into some jumbled discussion
of having to believe or you can't get in, but if you think so then you believe
God is cruel and vain. Parhaps yours is? Mine certainly isn't. Lead a good
life and you are welcome in his kingdom. Perform significant sins and you're
out of luck. (sorry - confession won't help you with the big sins.)And if you aren't forced to pay tithing, why was the guy with the calendar
kicked out for not paying?Perhaps they just used that as an excuse? So
either you have to pay or your church isn't honest with everyone. Either way
doesn't look very good to an outsider...
Are you for real?You sound like a girl---
Are you for real?You sound like a guy ---
To: John Pack Lambert | 10:25 p.m. Dec. 9, 2008While I
believe you're right, on both counts, that the Church will not accept
homosexuality, same-sex marriage, etc. etc. --- what we're asking is
not for the Church to reverse its teachings --- please, no.We are
asking --- LDS --- stay away from politics.
J P Lambert, I don't believe that you're a true LDS person, because you say too
many things that I don't believe or agree with. You need to stop this silly suck
up job to the church. It's very unbecoming.Lets stick to the topic
of prop-8--- if that is ok with you?
To Katelynn M. Beckwith,Who died and made you the Gestapo?
Ok, my mistake. It sounded like you were gay."I am one that
believes in individual right of choice which is a God given right. God gave us
the ability to make decisions."I'll give you that. We have the
right to make any choice we want, but it doesn't mean it is a right choice or a
choice that should be allowed. Take stealing for example. I can steal from
whomever I want, but it doesn't make it right.You're gonna need a
different argument than that to convince me, so what else do ya got.
"We'll end up in the same place in the end"That's a devil's
doctrine."I just get to have more fun that you"Seriously doubt that. I'm pretty darn happy being married and living my life
in the church. (plus my fun lasts longer)"and get to give my
money to people in need instead of being forced to give it to a church under
threat of disenfranchisement."Nope I've done nothing good with my
money. I've just spent it on a church where the clergy doesn't have a wage.
I've only helped fund shelters, warehouses for assistance and a university that
allows others to provide greater assistance as well.Sure the church
has a big bank account, and that means that they can provide help for years to
come instead of being nearly bankrupt. (I'm not forced to pay it either, my life
is just easier when I do for some reason, so I do)
Hey John Pack Lambert how about you start your own church. This way you could
actually be the expert that you think you are. JPL...almost rolls off the tongue
as well as LDS.
re: re "to realitycheck" 3:30pmI apologize. I didn't see how bad
that sounded written until you responded.You are right. It would
only be my interpretation. I was only trying to insinuate that I could at least
back up my claims with some logical thought instead of making comments without
even being able to support the argument.The difference is that
we bring not only our opinion, but a test. I have never forced someone to join
the church (if I was the conversion factor, that is a bad thing). I have given
them a test to find out for themselves. If they don't agree, fine. Everyone
has their own opinion."(The truly ironic part is you call that
"missionary work" when in practically any other religion (or even non-religions)
"missionary work" involves going to places with significant hunger and strife
and helping those people."You give a man a fish, you feed him
for a day. You teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Make
sense? Besides, I did go somewhere with significant hunger and strife and I did
help those people.
There is zero precidence, only conjecture available for those arguing against
homosexual marriage under the guise of defense of the church in legal standing.
If that were the true purpose of Proposition 8, then it wouldn't have been a
proposition stating marriage was between a man and a woman, it would have been a
proposition guaranteeing the right of a church to practice whatever
discrimination they felt necessary without fear of litigation...but they didn't
push that kind of a proposition, because that wasn't the goal. The goal of
proposition 8 was a Christianist movement's desire to force their morality on
others through mob-rule (sound familiar?).
maybe those supporting this ad should take a bit of their own advice:Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity ingeneral
and Catholicism in particular." -- Bill Donohue, CatholicLeague"Mormonism either affirms historic Christianity, or it doesn't. Sinceit
doesn't, it can't call itself Christianity -- a fact that all thegood will
and public relations in Utah can't change." -- Chuck Colson,Prison
Fellowship Ministries"While Mormons share some beliefs with
Christians, they are notChristians." -- Chuck Colson, Prison Fellowship
Ministries"Most evangelicals still regard Mormonism as a cult." --
Rich Cizik,National Association of Evangelicals
Jason,I'll give you some reality. You fail to understand the seperation of
church and state and the basic tenets of the constitution that ensure freedom OF
AND FROM religion. There is zero precidence for a religious organziation fearing
lawsuits over this. Blacks did not sue for the priesthood, and neither have
women. Non-mormons have not sued to get married in temples and neither have
mormons who are not worthy of a temple recommend.There is nothing
about the homosexuals gaining legal rights to marry that violates straight
homophobes from practicing their own religion or living their lives how they
want. There is absolutely no aspect of a homosexual's relationship or marraige
that is detrimental to my own religion (which is currently questionably LDS), my
ability to practice my religion, or the validity of my marriage or to be
married. Every single criticism of homosexual marriage under the guise of
protecting heterosexual rights is a complete sham.And really? you're
going to sum up your argument with that? The reason the straight community is
not suing the LGBT businesses or groups is because the LGBT isn't discriminating
against the straights; There's nothing to sue over!
I'm confused. Wasn't it was determined that BSA can legally discriminate
because they are a private organization. Their written policy is that a "known
or avowed" homosexual can not be a member of that organization. (In theory,
whether they act on homosexual feelings or not.)I don't see the
church's concern would be as it relates to the BSA. All this aside,
anyone can be sued for just about anything. Nothing to prevent that. Winning
is another matter.
To BobdIt is not apples and oranges. It is reality. They Boy
Scouts of America is a non-profit organization whos principles stand in direct
opposition to the LGBT lifestyle. They were sued to allow participation. Same
thing with the eHarmony (think thats the name). They were a matching service
for men and women, they were sued because they didn't offer same sex matching
service. Whether you're a church or not, if you don't provide service to the
LGBT community eventually you will be sued. And I hate to tell you this, but it
is not hate or bigotry to want to have principles, whether your the LDS church
or the BSA. It is about people wanting the freedom not to be force to accept a
lifestyle that goes directly in the face of what they believe. In my opinion it
is not the christian community trying to force things on others, it is the LGBT
comminuty doing it. You don't see the straight community sueing to be allowed
into LGBT groups or businesses.
Jason,The Boy Scouts of America is not a church. You are comparing apples
to oranges in the same way every other fear mongering "they're gonna sue our
rights away" theory was proposed in favor of prop 8. There is only one
justification for it, the acceptance of bigotry and discrimination against a
THE MOUTH PIECE HERE HAS NO MORE TO SAY!
I think its been said a couple times in this thread already, but I think its
worth saying again. Although the LDS church teaches against the practice of
homosexuality, much the way it does regarding premarital sex or adultry, I think
it has little to do with the reasoning behind why the chruch took such a public
stance and encouraged its members to get involved. Where I do believe the LDS
church has a sincere concern for the souls of those who choose this lifestyle I
do not believe it would ever want to "impose" those beliefs as law. I believe the motives are much more about protecting the church and its ideals
while maintaining its tax status. It doesn't take long before some isolated
mambers of the group will seek to require the church to marry them, and sue if
they don't. You can see it with things like the Boy Scouts of America, and
other organizations who have been gone after for thier priciples. And this is
not meant to pick on the homosexual community, all groups do it. Men wanting
into an all women's gym is another example that has been in the news.
To JPLYou mis-interpreted my comments,what I meant to
say was that opposition to the LDS Church regarding gay marriage did not exist
as vociferously --- it's a matter of perspective.As to your age,
that might explain some of the comments you make. I'm not trying to be
condescending, but people older than you have seen their share of anti-LDS
protests and demonstrations.And you did say to me "you have
obviously never attended General Conference" --- just check the words befure you
To 12:05I'm with you on what you said.
"Christ Himself said that if we are not with Him, we are against Him. By His own
words, if we're not 100% behind the Lord, then we're not behind Him at all."I feel sorry for your children if you believe we as people are 100%
anything. We are imperfect (most of us aren't even very good) but we try. For
humans, righteousness is a direction, not a destination.
"There are only two forces at work on this DN blog, and that is Mr. Lambert and
his computer.Perhaps, Mr Lambert can tell some of us who and where he came
(ALIEN PLANET) from? Lets here about you Mr Lambert, and what makes you tick
like a clock day after day on all these blogs? You are indeed a very interesting
specimen of a human being. I cannot quite figure out how someone can spend so
much time commenting as you seem to do? DN should have you as their DEAR ABBY
COLUMN SPECIALIST or something.
It was Brigham Young that was a Democrat, not Lincoln (I thought that too
obvious to mention.) Lincoln was obviously the first Republican President. When
I used the words that Brigham Young was also a Democrat, I meant just that, he
was also a Democrat and it should not have been assumed I referred to Lincoln as
well, sheesh. My comparison was of Racial and combined Racial/Social attitudes
of that time frame, especially given that there were associations between the
two. I have a pet-peeve with the racist comments of Brigham Young spewing
without mention of those same words coming out of the mouth of Lincoln, which
did occur. While not right or pc by today's standards they were progressive AT
THAT TIME even if some seem horrific to us now. One cannot read one sentence to
judge the man.Now, knowing that premarital sex was wrong and knowing that
blacks were held as effectively not quite human and therefore ineligible for
marriage and that men often did rape their black female victims. Would death on
the spot for that man be vulgar or protective of the raped female?
Hey, John Lambert,WHO CARES!Is John Lambert some kind of a set
up on here or what? It's getting mighty weird.
"You may claim that they were making false claims, but to say that President
Kimball never claimed to have recieved a revelation is a total and complete
lie."Lie implies knowledge, Mr. Pomposity
"There are only two forces at work in this world. Only people are gray." - Chris
Heimerdinger"Well, heavens, if Chris Heimerdinger said it, it must
The same old blah, blah, blah every single day. So, I said once, and I'll say it
again, and that is, if anyone is listening? I voted for prop-8.Now, I hope
you are happy because the world seems to still be revolving around me.
"In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a revelation
had been recieved by President Spencer W. Kimball extending priesthood and
temple blessings to all worthy male members of the Church". This is how
President N. Eldon Tanner began his presentation of Official Declaration 2 to
the General Conference on September 30th, 1978. The body then was asked to
"accept this revelation as the word and will of the Lord" which they did.
You may claim that they were making false claims, but to say that President
Kimball never claimed to have recieved a revelation is a total and complete lie.
To the 9:13 commentator, David B. Haight, Gordon B. Hinckley and others
have unequivocably declared that Official Declaration 2 was a revelation.
You can mock the methods of the Lord in revealing his word as much as you want.
However, I will follow the prophets and hold to the revelations. I forgot
to add that Bruce R. McConkie gave a talk latter than summer at BYU in which he
unequivocably declared that this was a revelation from the Lord.
"Life becomes less black and white once you understand it is a big world out
there. Enjoy the ride."I'm not John Lambert, but to your comment,
I'd offer one in return:"There are only two forces at work in this
world. Only people are gray." - Chris HeimerdingerEither something
is black, or it is white. It is wrong, or it is right. Christ Himself said that
if we are not with Him, we are against Him. By His own words, if we're not 100%
behind the Lord, then we're not behind Him at all. People are gray.
We tend to confuse the issues. As humans, we rationalize, we make excuses, we
seek answers with our limited understanding, and we convince ourselves and
others of "the truth", but if it's not God's truth, then it's not really truth
at all. His plan is black and white. Because we're gray, we're
expected to make choices and conform ourselves to fit one side or the other.
Being in the middle, we're not completely one or the other, but it's our job to
choose which one we want to be. If we don't ever choose, the choice will be made
I remember very well when President Kimball changed the policy on blacks and the
priesthood. He did not say that it was a revelation at all. He gathered the
Quorum of Twelve in the temple and had them vote on it unanimously after they
had been fasting. It is quite convenient how one can get a unanimous vote after
starving them. Now the church teaches it was a "revelation." Very convenient.
To R, However Lincoln was absolutely never a Democrat. He was a Whig
before he became a Republican. On the other hand Brigham Young told many
missionaries he sent to preach the gospel to Native Americans that they should
take Native American wives. Ira Hatch was one of the few missionaries who
actually followed his counsel on this topic, but it actually shows how Brigham
Young's views were on this issue not entirely the same as his contemporaries. To understand Brigham Young you need to jettison the binary view of race and
see race as an issue involving a wide array of possibilities.
Re Lambert,Has anyone ever posted and asked for your counseling and
advise? I was just wondering because you seem to think you must tell each one of
us just how it is out there. Have you lived half your life like a good many of
us have, to know everything thing there is to know about life? hummm?You tire me boy!
Muntz, too bad you didn't actually study Lincoln or you would know him as a
different man than the one presented to mainstream America, the one whose
history has been sanitized. Lincoln, a contemporary of Brigham Young was like
B.Y., a racist. Also like Brigham Young, Lincoln did not believe that slaves
should be treated inhumanely. Like Brigham Young, Lincoln also believed that
slaves should have been returned to Africa because of separatist beliefs.
Perhaps it is not completely bizarre considering that B.Y. was also a Democrat
as were most Mormons at the time.
I say the ire is well-earned.
It was not me who said those words, I am only repeating what that Black member
had told me in response to my question to him. You can go seek him out and talk
to him about it. I only told this story to prove to people that "some" Black
LDS members were happy no matter the outcome. Don't take me wrong, he preferred
to have the Priesthood, but he would have been happy either way, not my words
If only both sides in this argument would quit trying to shove their views down
each others' throats. I skipped most of the comments to get to the end, and it's
the same people having the same arguments over and over--not only on this story,
but any other story involving the LDS Church's involvement with prop8. Both
sides claim to have tolerance and love for others, so maybe we could all try to
have respect in these forums so we could make some real progress in working
together to find solutions--instead of making divisive comments that only incite
High school mid-90s? No wonder your hundreds (thousands?) of posts lack the
voice of experience. Life becomes less black and white once you understand it
is a big world out there. Enjoy the ride.
The Church will never regret its support of Proposition 8 and will never
change from advocating marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
To Vince, My point is that you claimed that opposition to the Church
did not really exist before Proposition 8. I pointed out protests in Salt Lake
City to show they existed. I was not making any comments about attendance
of general conference per se. I am just saying that attacks on the Church are
nothing new. I experieced no lack of mocking and derision of the church
and its teachings when I was in high school in the mid-1990s, so the idea that
opposition to the Church is a result of Proposition 8 is just unfounded.
To: John Pack LambertI'm not an "Anti-Mormon," or someone trying stir the
pot. I'm a member of your church politely asking you to stop posting like you
are a hired church spokesmen. After reading your countless exclusive comments
it's obviously that you don't realize that you are doing so much more harm than
good. This is an Internet board , it's as public as it gets, and when you post
as if you're a priesthood leader giving a church member a scathing lecture you
come off as condescending, irrational, and rude. Don't get defensive, just stop.
Don't pretend I'm attacking you or your beliefs, just stop. Please stop.
RE: JPL 2:35pmOH BROTHER!!!
The simple truth is that proposition 8 was, regardless of your stance on whether
gays are a sin or not, an act of a religion projecting their morals on
nonbelievers. It was an act of Christianity and in particular the LDS church
shifting from a position of reflecting Christian values for society to see, to
enforcing Christian values for society to obey. If God wanted his
church to enact laws, then Jesus would have came as a secular/worldly king,
ordered the people to do well and sin no more with the might of the Roman army
(or any other one of his choosing) and the physical law at his side, then
finished his job with a decree that he should be killed to save the world from
their sins.It's a shame when people that don't understand their own
religion or have yet to perfect themselves feel they have the right or the
authority to force others to obey religious law.
Re: Nelson | 3:07I never said anything about tax exempt status nor
do I care about that. And I'm not an outsider rejecting this as an excuse, I'm
an active member rejecting this as an excuse. He didn't need God's approval to
lift it, he seeked God's approval to explain why, when he could find no evidence
for the restriction, it existed. It existed because people tend to stick to
ignorance until they're forced out of it. Someday members of the church will
look back on proposition 8 with as much remorse as they do about the
circumstances surrounding the blacks receiving the priesthood.
R,Your understanding of his words is as accurate as your understanding of
Lincoln's objectives. He freed the slaves to gain a cause for Europe to get
behind during the civil war. He needed assistance and the moral issue was his
only trump card over the south when it came to convincing Europeans to pick a
"If you want me to explain any verse in the bible, I will."now that
is true condescention. you will explain to him? and you are positive your
explanation is correct.... how? because someone told you so?please
- get off your pedestal and realize your interpretation is simpy your opinion,
nothing more. It's not correct, nor incorrect. It's simply your opinion.all of you out there should try to come to the sane conclusion that
everything you say in interpreting the bible is simply your (or your leaders')
opinion.The bible can be interpreted innummerable ways. Don't kid
yourselves into thinking your way is the right way, nor the only way. Everyone
has an opinion - you just push yours onto others more than most people do. I
mean, you actually go to people's houses to push it on them. (The truly ironic
part is you call that "missionary work" when in practically any other religion
(or even non-religions) "missionary work" involves going to places with
significant hunger and strife and helping those people. It doesn't mean going
to Atlanta and showing up at middle and upper class homes trying to get converts
(and tithing bonuses.)
To John Pack Lambert | 2:22 p.m. Dec. 9, 2008As a gay LDS man ---
and hello, we gays are everywhere --- so wake up John.I am not
advocating that people go against Church leaders ---I am saying,
however, do not make it political.If it does get taken to the
political arena, then we will make a political argument, not a religious one.
re 3:30pm poster:"You believe in a living prophet too. For you, it
is your desires (you blindly do whatever they say)"wow. Now that
took some imagination... My desires are a prophet? are you serious? and I
follow them blindly? didn't know that. If that were true, I'd be cheating on
my wife and be broke... so that pops that bubble.and you can quote
all the scripture you want. Since men wrote it, it's unclear to me that it's
God's word. But I'm sure you, who believes even men today exist that have
conversations with the Almighty, are certainly convinced in the bible reflects
only God's word...But you are right - God does speak to me, and to
you too. It's called your conscience, and if you listen closely, you will lead a
kind and noble life. Or you can live by rules written by men over the last 2000
years. We'll end up in the same place in the end - I just get to have more fun
that you, and get to give my money to people in need instead of being forced to
give it to a church under threat of disenfranchisement.
Re: 12:53 a.m. Dec. 9, 2008I don't believe my targeting of energies
are mis-directed. While yes, the California voters cast their
ballots and other groups were involved, there was an enormous amount of Utah and
Mormon money coming in to assist with to aid the Prop 8 campaign.And
BTW, I am focusing my energies elsewhere as well.
John Pack Lambert | 2:47 p.m. Dec. 9, 2008Johh, John, John...What do people do with you?I don't need to go to Salt Lake
to attend General Conference. You know that --- Come on.Attend
General Conference? Which year do you want me to quote --- Pres. Benson's talk
on pride? Pres. Hinckley's talks on the growth and temple building? Reminder: People don't need to go to Utah to know what's going on in the
Church.So strike 1.As far as the anti-Mormon
demonstrations --- outside of Prop 8. --- humn --- I have seen my share --- many
at temples --- I'll say that it included when one was built.Strike
2.You assume too much.My take this time around is that I
wholeheartedly disagree, not with the Church's own stand on homosexuality,
that's every Church's take on where they will take their stand on interpretation
of canon.Rather, I disagree with the Church's view on making it
political.That I happen to be gay --- well, it is what it is.
I am a faithful LDS member but your post really misses the point. The curse of
accountability is a small price to pay for the reward that accountability
brings: all that God has. So to characterize these members as happy either way
is misleading. How could you be truly happy knowing there was much more reward
out of reach?To try to gloss over the past this way, saying it
really wasn't a big deal, does us a disservice. What faithful mormon would deny
himself the priesthood because of the "curse" it brings with it? To suggest
receiving the priesthood is a zero sum game, where you gain a little but are
cursed in an equal and off-setting amount, completely misunderstands this
so... "President Kimball was constantly pleading to the Lord for approval - and
finally received it in 1978"how did he receive it, may I ask?
please - enlighten us.then you say "We do not know why it took God
so long to approve this decision"... what? are you serious? it probably took
a long time because your president couldn't quite figure out how to convince
normal, rational people that he had actually had a conversation with the
Creator....so - pray tell - how were your leaders informed of God's
decision? I'm pretty sure the seer stones don't work anymore... And if you don't know how he was told, or how your leaders actually chat with
God, then I can think of no reason to believe you (and can think of no reason
why you would believe it either...)perhaps you know John Pack
Lambert. If not, you should meet - you have much in common...
John Pack Lambert - if you ever want to read what it sounds like when an
overbearing religious zealot talks - just read your posts. God himself isn't as
overbearing as you.kick people out for disagreeing with Monroe?
secret operations to "ferret" out prop 8 supporters? perhaps I've been right
all along - mormons and scientologists aren't that different...
Muntz, you have to read all the words to understand the context including that
of time. Again, Abraham Lincoln said some whoppers by todays standards that are
just as bad. In fact he wanted slavery to end and then ship all slaves to
Africa even the ones born here that knew nothing about Africa, the language, or
how to live there. Lambert, you discussed Godmaker by using the
word "feeling." You attempted to insult my decision by associating me with an
individual that I find vulgar as if that could be the only reason I left.
Again, I left not because of even judgmental people like yourself, but through
study of the scripture itself. Do what is appropriate and apologize.
I read the article. It was so biased I had a hard time finishing. Yeah he made
some points where it depends on interpretation, but he took so many sayings out
of context and the Hebrew and Greek backgrounds of the bible that I have a hard
time believing that he even read the bible, he probably just skimmed parts of
it. As for the "fact" that the bible doesn't say anything about gays, read the
quoted verses by other posters and explain them to me if that doesn't mean it is
against homosexuality. Yes, God does love gays like the article says and yes he
probably would spend more time with them, but he hates Homosexuality and does
not condone it. If you want me to explain any verse in the bible, I will.By the way, dinosaurs did exist (most LDS believe that, it is hard not
to).You believe in a living prophet too. For you, it is your desires (you
blindly do whatever they say)It's funny how paying 10% into this pyramid
has allowed me to overcome debt and live comfortably.
I think that you are assuming that I am gay or lesbian. I am not. I am one that
believes in individual right of choice which is a God given right. God gave us
the ability to make decisions.
it figures you would try to ban certain comments. ban false
acusations against Joseph Smith? first, whjo's to say what is true or false?
you say it's gays are immoral - as if it's fact. but is it really true, or JUST
YOUR OPINION?? so you can't ban anything, since you don't really KNOW what's
true or false - you just BELIEVE you know.ban the "r word" and
profanity? most of us have absolutely no iea what word is the "r" word, unless
you mean "religion" and since you're such an expert, we couldn't possible ban
that word. Profanity? Haven't ever seen any on here, but I'm 100% sure that
your idea of profanity and most other people's idea are vastly different.Me thinks you are simply someone that wishes they were a prophet or some
kind of leader in your church but since you're so over-zealous the "powers that
be" simply keep passing you by. Actually can't say I blame them... Everyone
would have a headache trying to keep up with your "holier-than-thou"
I have met several Black LDS member who were members long before 1978. I even
ask a particular member how he felt about it, to him he said it was a blessing
and a curse. When he was able to receive the Priesthood he felt
blessed greatly. The cursed part came in the form of now he is held accountable
for having that blessing of the priesthood, now he was accountable for needing
to go to the temple, now he was accountable for all the same things a current
priesthood holder had. Before that all he was accountable for was being a
baptized member of the church. So you can see that he was happy either way.
The Lord would have taken care of him and his family no matter the outcome of
being able to have or hold the Priesthood.This statement to me by
this particular Black member has always stuck with me throughout my life.
PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY = ACCOUNTABILITY.
You assume that the decision to give the priesthood to blacks was up to men.
I've read the writings of President Kimball in particular and he was constantly
pleading to the Lord for approval - and finally received it in 1978, well after
the church had received tremendous flack during the sixties.The
point that the church was about to lose its tax exempt status is exaggerated at
best and a lie at worst.We do not know why it took so long for God
to approve this decision. Many members, including my parents constantly prayed
that it might happen. Joseph Smith was an enemy to slavery (which was part of
why the Mormons were not wanted in Missouri) and had many black friends.I can see how an outsider would reject this as an excuse. You believe
what you want to believe, but I know that Pres. Kimball and earlier leaders
wanted the ban lifted and needed approval from God to do so.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both
of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their
blood shall be upon them. I do not fear my GOD. I will not fear my
GOD.Leviticus is sorely outdated. Is the plan to sentence all
homosexuals to death?
ward? you mean psyco ward? testimony? witness? what - are you in
court, under arrest for religious over-zealousness?you can certainly
believe that back in the 1800s some dude used some rocks in a hat to read
ancient scrolls that allowed him to talk to God. (Kind of hard to say with a
straight face, but whatever.) You can even give 10% of your money to the
largest pyramid scam in history. But don't act like you have God's ear. And
don't act like your leaders are prophets. Just because you believe something
doesn't make it true. Just like the easter bunny and santa claus, it's all open
to dispute.We can tell you believe yourself to be a religious
authority. Again, just because you believe something doesn't make it true....
I suggest you all read the article in Newsweek where they discuss the fact that
the bible really doesn't address gays. You all just decided to interprete the
bible against gays. But that's to be expected from people that believe in seer
stone magic and living prophets, think dinosaurs never existed, and continue to
put at least 10% of their paycheck into the biggest pyramid scheme ever
created...if it gives you all a warm fuzzy feeling, then I guess
it's worth it... but it still doesn't make anything in the bible be against
gays... only you, and most other religious zealots..
Wow, where do I start?How many blacks were given the chance for the
highest kingdom?Not all.How many blacks will be given
the chance for the highest kingdom?All.Why didn't the
church allow the blacks to hold the priesthood for so long?If you
find the answer to the question of:Why did God not allow the
children of Israel that were not of the tribe of Levi to hold the priesthood?Sure the blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood, but that does
not make them any less blessed. They did not have the responsibility of the
priesthood either. God had a different purpose for them. If you want a world
where God treats all of his children equally, go to a different world. He
treats us all differently, but blesses us equally (according to our obedience
To Vince, You obviously have never been to General Conference. There
were people protesting and yelling "All Mormons are going to Hell" long before
Prop 8. You also ignore the pro-Murphy protests that occured in SLC six
years ago, and many other attacks from many sides on the Church and its
To the 11:30 commentator, No, it is I who present the truth that the
Church believes in absolutes, and that the doctrine of the Church on same gender
marriage is not open for debate. I may at times on other issues state
my opinion in ways that are not clearly different from the view of the
church. However on this issue it is a 100% clear position of the Church
that only marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. It
seems you really dislike that President Monson and his counselors spoke out and
urged action. He is a wonderful man who teaches us true principals of Christian
living. They are obviously more patient with rebels than I am, since
the Church has not carried out operations to ferret out secret supporters of
same-gender marriage like it did in the 1930s to ferret out supporters of plural
marriage. Not that I think the church should do such on the SGM issue. However
President Monson and his counselors have for the most part left discipline of
apostates to local leaders, focusing on teaching principals of Christian living.
To Sarah Nicole, It is because of the wonderful comments by people like
you that I continue to wade through the DN boards, which too often get filled up
by comments from people who mock the experiences of revelation from the Holy
Ghost that Church members recieve.
To Katelynn, You make the assumption that some of these people ever go
in and see their bishops for tithing settlement. I know, everyone is urged and
encoraged to go, but that does not mean there are not members who do not
bother. I will make one last attempt to state my position clearly. The
people who I feel are endangering their Church membership are those who have
turned the cause against Prop 8 into a full crusade in which they have stated
the First Presidency is violating the teachings of scripture. It is when people
in stating their position on this issue go as far as to claim the First
Presidency is acting contrary to the word of God that they have started on the
path to apostasy. Maybe my feeling that the church should excommunicate
all apostates is too harsh a response, but it should also be noted that some of
my comments merely state I feel people in some cases should be called before
disciplinary counsels, which is not the same thing as excommunicating them.
To R, I never claimed that I knew by the spirit that you had indulged
the teachings of Decker. However, no matter how much you mock my
testimony and witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God it will not
change the fact that it is. My ward has felt more unity because of the
attacks the Church has suffered of late.
To the 4:15 commentator, I maybe have gone over the top at times, but I
am tired of people trying to claim they are members in good standing while they
denigrate the church, its teachings, and especially when they wilfully act in
direct opposition to the counsel of the Firsti Presidency.
Here are some specific verses you can read.This is in Leviticus
18. 1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Here are
some more commandments 22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with
womankind: it is abomination. And the consequences 28
That the aland spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the
nations that were before you.No society has ever flourished that
accepted homosexuality as something OK. Sounds like California (along with many
other states) has spued you out. They would do more if the constitution didn't
protect you.There is a counter-example to your claim.Explain to me if I am wrong in some way and how.
R:was Brigham Young being progressive when he said that as a law of God
that "if the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the
seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot"?Or was that just an off day for him?
Vince,I am LDS and it still makes no sense other than under the guise of
bigotry and racism. Saying that other churches do not grant priesthood to
members does not negate the fact that blacks were specifically omitted within
the mormon church. The only reason they were not allowed was because no one
questioned why (probably too busy worrying about the sins of others as they are
still doing today). It took over a decade after the civil rights movement for
the president of the church to stand up for something all members should have
recognized as true decades, if not a century earlier. To take the "we don't know
why" approach is a mockery of the logic and reasoning abilities that even a
child posesses.You really think Blacks had all the blessings of
church membership? Without the priesthood how many blacks were sealed in the
temple? How many were given the chance for the highest kingdom? I'd say that's a
pretty big aspect to the blessings of the church based on the doctrine
taught.I'd also be very interested to see what you think the mormons
have done to embrace others that stands out amidst other churches.
Leviticus 18:1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,there are a ton
more commandments here (read them if you please)Leviticus 18:22 Thou
shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.If
you want the Hebrew version so that you can see that "lie" means to have sex
with, I can give that to you as well.I provided a counterexample.
Now explain to me why this is incorrect if it is?
try reading the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It seems that God definitely
judged that city and if you read the story, you will know why. So there is no
"omission" save the omission of your actually reading the bible which is quite
clear about the definition using words like 20:13 If a man also lie with
mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:
they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Please don't
forget 20:1 which reads 20:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
"Seriously, is the church really that influential in California? If people
listened to everything the church said, the missionaries would be loving
life!"On this issue, there is little doubt that the church's
influence clearly outweighed its small percentage of the population. As an LDS
person who was anti-8, there were people on our larger intersections waving
signs nightly before the election. As I looked at the crowds doing so, they
were at least 75% LDS.In addition, are we to believe that if no on 8
outspent the yes side 2 to 1 that yes would have still won? The spending would
have been 2 to 1 without LDS members' money.Inside the church, we
are still taking credit for the victory. A member from Utah attended our ward
and in his testimony this past week he said that during the campaign "the eyes
of Utah were on California and you gained a lot of respect for your efforts."
In my son's singles, the bishop (more than a month after the campaign) held an
entire meeting on prop 8 and thanked and congratulated the members for their
efforts.Privately we were the moving force, public we deny it.
You better listen to your leaders and quit harassing those who have a right to
freedom of speech.You Vikings are all alike.
Think like Christ. Christ: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Christ: Did they judge you? Girl: No Sir they did not. Christ: Then nor will I.
Go and sin no more.No where in the bible does Christ or God say
anything about homosexuality. It is most certainly mentioned by disciples but
not by Christ. Disciples are no more perfect than any of us and they make
mistakes in judgment. I give you the example of Judas.GOD makes no
mistakes! God and Christ would not have made the mistake of ommision.
While I am for gay marriage rights ---non-LDS people do not
understand something about Blacks and the priesthood nor about race relations
between the LDS and Blacks.If you are not LDS, when you speak about
granting Blacks the priesthood, most churches do not grant the priesthood to
their members --- Black, White, or otherwise --- in most other churches --- it's
a select few --- even in Christian and Old Testament times, it was a select few
who received the priesthood.I think non-LDS are under the impression
that Blacks were somehow not allowed to have all the blessings of Church
membership ---Blacks did not hold the priesthood, for reasons
unknown ---Nonetheless, the LDS had a long history of embracing
multicultural groups and reaching out to all peoples --- way back clear in the
1830's --- something which cannot be said for other religious groups.
There are people in Utah that were buried without graves. I would also have an
impossible time believing that the person remained a slave of the pioneer family
under Brigham Young. While he said many things that would now be deemed as
racist (but not different than Abraham Lincoln, a contemporary), he was actually
progressive at the time and wrote that people deserved judgment for their
cruelty and treatment of slaves. In fact, Missouri created laws because the
Mormons were known to have aided the rescue of slaves. Mormons were
historically Democrats and only changed en masse after the polygamy issue.Jesus did not preach to non-jews, so was he racist?
Where are the graves in Utah, of the BLACK people who came here during Mormon
pioneer times? A friend of mine said that their family had a black slave who
came to Utah with their pioneer families, and that they have sought to find
these graves but have never found them...what's with this?
For all your sensitivity, you as a church sure took a long time to recognize the
suffering of the Blacks in granting them the priesthood. You don't get to claim
the victim while having a history of victimizing others; but the church's
members have a tendency to forget the wrongs of their own very quickly and seem
to enjoy focusing on the affliction within their own lives as it provides a
theorhetical oppression that delusionally affirms their being of holiness. A religion that claims to be Christian by promoting spending all of
one's time and means to remove the rights of a microscopic fragment of the
population rather than addressing legitimate issues and legitimate needs of
hundreds of millions of suffering people throughout the world needs to seriously
rethink their priorities.
If you can find a passage in the Scriptures where God or Jesus (not a church or
priest) used a societal government to legally enforce Biblical law on a seperate
religion or culture within the same society then your argument holds water...but
the passages do not exist, and your argument is full of holes.
First, it's simply your opinion that "the church was on the wrong side of the
issue." Anyone who can read the Bible and say that God did not condemn
homosexuality is either defiant, stupid, or delusional. It's so plain, it can't
possibly be confused or missed. And spare me the age-old example of some
obscure verse that allows stoning of rebellious child - we're talking about 15
passages in the OT and NT that make it VERY clear.Second, again it
is your opinion, but to say the LDS are "playing victim" again is insenstive. I
personally have ancestors who were killed and driven off their property by
redneck mobs. Today's challenges are minor in comparison, but given the LDS
history, I think you can understand why we are sensitive to being singled out.
Hummm? What's all this John Lambert stuff? Is he a church spy?I
voted for prop 8 and hope in someway it helped.
I think that the blogger by the name of John P Lambert, should have church court
held on him for playing God on all church blogs. He worries me with all his
anti mormons voted FOR prop 8 yet mormons are the ones being boycotted.
What is John P. Lambert some kind of control freak? OR A WANNABE CHURCH
AUTHORITY? Unfortunately,there are those members out there like this who have
that kind of pushy attitude, we have several in our ward. I stay far away from
Lambert, just in case you missed it, I never read or saw the GodMakers. I was
anonymously sent it while actively LDS and burned it on the BBQ since I felt and
feel Decker was as honest as Jimmy Swaggart. That burning in your bosom
"feeling" that you had was wrong just as your "feeling" that you believe to be
the Holy ghost might be equally as wrong. Thank you for sharing how judgmental
church members can be while I, as an ex-mo was sharing how loving they were with
the example I gave of an active temple attending LDS member opening her home
giving free food and housing to a young, out, gay man that needed the example of
Christ's love. You should try that example some time rather than what you
attempted with me. Ah but the few ruin it for the many.
To the NYT for running the ad. And, all you conservative Mormons who constantly
blast the NYT ought to praise them here. There is no place for
violence or intimidation in this debate. But, the church was wrong on this
issue and is on the wrong side of history (again). There is absolutely nothing
wrong with criticizing a bad decision and the church that was to mechanism by
which over 20 million dollars was raised in support of a bill that stripped
rights from a minority.So, you Mormons can stop playing victim right
about now. That, my friends, is getting REALLY old.
Regardless of their minority population, the LDS church played the majority role
in funding Proposition 8; their "gee golly, why us?" attitude they are taking at
the backlash is idiotic at best. They continuously preach of religious freedom
and tolerance previously and presently but have repeatedly made mistakes and
conducted intentional activities toward repressing the rights of others to
practice their own religion or be free from religion entirely.As a
member of the church, I have a very hard time reconciling my beliefs that were
formed from the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament of the Bible with
the actions of the theorhetically "Restored Church" in the modern age. I wasn't
aware that the "Restoration" included the abandonment of the principle Jesus
taught when he wrote the sins of others in the sand. The concept that we are
supposed to "Follow the Prophet" without any consideration of our role is
absurd. We aren't blind sheep, and we weren't intended to be so; just joining
the church is supposed to be a personal decision made after plenty of thought,
prayer, and consideration, once a member the process of thinking and praying
through our decisions does not cease.
The thugs aren't proven to be any gay individuals. If the gays want to protest,
it is their right given to everyone in the constitution. Free speech! Damage to
the property could have been any sick individual opportunist, happens all of the
time. When events occur, opportunists come a calling. 9-11/anthrax in the mail
for example. Get the picture?
You say "I am not attacking the LDS theology, but I am defending my right to
marry against those who will take it away."The LDS church did not
take it away. 52.5% of the voters of California did, assuming you live in
California. Majorities in other states where very few Mormons even
live approved similar measures.I know you are upset about it, but
your anger is mis-directed. Note that the LDS people will listen to you and
respond. Go try to even find a blog like this from other churches, the NAACP,
OK, let's try to take a look at this with a sense of humor.Seriously, is the church really that influential in California? If people
listened to everything the church said, the missionaries would be loving
life!It's obvious to me that the church is an easy target. A
proposition was put on the ballot (not by the church or by its members). People
voted on the proposition based on their conscience. I'm sure people of all
backgrounds voted on both sides of the issue.As my dad used to say,
if you don't want to know what I think, why did you ask?
10 pages of comments. What a massive waste of time!Did anyone really
change their minds after reading all of this? I doubt it.
One last thing. I'm getting pretty tired of LDS folks claiming that they are
being oppressed because of this backlash. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is voting
to take away rights from church-going LDS people. EXPECT TO HAVE PEOPLE ANGRY AT
YOU WHEN YOU OPPRESS SOMEBODY ELSE!! It's like a bully punching a kid, the kid
punches back, and the bully says, "What was that for?"
To Lynn | 10:27 p.m. Dec. 8, 2008 "Suddenly it's PC to target
Christians because they stand for morality, and it's especially PC to target
Mormons because they are a small minority of Christians,and others, who voted
against Proposition 8, and many groups feel Mormons are fair game anyway, thanks
to the bigotry and hatred of many angry anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons."Please take note that before Prop 8 Mormons were doing their own thing and no
one bothered them.I am not proposing that violence and
non-democratic methods be used against the LDS Church ---But I am
saying that the LDS Church, for its involvement en masse, should be able to
defend such a feat as to place a great deal of social questioning of
morality.If they play the politics game, enter it, and defend it ---
but don't play the number of "oh well, now we voted, we'll just go quiet about
our business, nobody bother us please"I, for one, am not attacking
the LDS theology, but I am defending my right to marry against those who will
take it away.
P.S. You can stand up for what you believe in. We all enjoy the right of free
speech. However, when what you believe in is immoral, you will be viewed by the
greater population as an agent of evil. Case in point, the LDS church's prop 8
supporters are being viewed as evil for "standing up for what they believe in"
when what they believe in is taking away rights from a specific group of people.
I'm sure plenty of people "stood up for what they believed in" when they
themselves tried to combat the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s. It
didn't make them right or "moral" or just. In fact it made them seem evil,
intolerant, and ignorant. You certainly can be proud to stand up for your
beliefs when your beliefs don't hurt anybody. I am. Once again, I'm not trying
to tear anybody or anybody's faith down. It's just that when you take a step
back and look at the "big picture", there is quite a bit of insight to be
I feel like I've been cleaned up by a 10 wave set at Mavericks- and I didnt even
read pages 6 thru 8!!! One things for sure though,every one of you(that I
read)made me think,and that is a good thing. It also made me realize that I care
about each and every one of you,_and thats a GREAT THING!!
Mr. Lambert, it appears that you have sincere intentions of sharing your (our)
faith, but are unintentionally doing more damage than good. Posting on every
controversial story with an absolute moral authority is not helping people to
better understand Mormonism. Your tactics are condescending and exclusive.
I voted a few days early in Southern CA and stood in line for 3.5 hours in order
to do so. It was wild. There were people from all walks of life and minority
groups in the line. I voted for prop-8 and am Mormon. In the line were gays
holding hands. I have nothing against them, I just voted for what I believe is
right and they had the same right. Most the Mormon's I know are very loving and
tolerant of all other people. The only exceptions are a few teenage boys who
like to bash certain ethnic groups or gays, but that is typical for their age.
First, I can't believe the nonsense I've read here tonight. All the "show me the
proof" that there was violence against Mormons, vandalism of the chapels and
Temples, etc. To those posters, I would ask, where have you been? It's been
all over the news, all over the Internet, on You Tube, etc. How can you even
ask such a question! Second, the allegation that the Church took
out the ad in the NY Times is absurd! Why is it so difficult to believe that
people from all walks of life, many different religions, and different spectrums
of intellectual and political thought backed the members of the Church because
it was the right thing to do? Face it, the violence against the Church was
wrong, and it's a threat against all religious groups. Suddenly it's PC to
target Christians because they stand for morality, and it's especially PC to
target Mormons because they are a small minority of Christians,and others, who
voted against Proposition 8, and many groups feel Mormons are fair game anyway,
thanks to the bigotry and hatred of many angry anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons. That group shows up here, all the time.
NOW I HAVE HEARD EVERYTHING!MEN POSTING AS WOMEN.
John Pack Lambert,Thanks for posting the name of your blog, I've
been meaning to ask you for it for a few days now. I appreciate your defense of
the Lord, His prophets and His church. The hateful comments on these boards
(from people of all faiths) can really bring a person down sometimes, but I
always find your comments, and those of many others, uplifting. Thanks again!
Those who are terrorizing the LDS Church, in the name of civil rights, are
wrong, dead wrong! Everyone has the right to think and make a choice, without
fear of retribution. The New York Times has it right on this one. Good Job!
i'm glad that those latter-day saints are getting support from other groups.
personally, i think that there's nothing wrong with same sex marriages except
that they are ...immoral. but what is morality after all? may be we should take
it out of our laws, he-he....hm.
To: Roxanne | 5:43 p.m. Dec. 8, 2008When you say that being "gay is
deliberate" ---do you mean to say "as deliberate as being
heterosexual?"If so, sure, I take you at your word ---See how ridiculous these statement sound ---"Being straight is not
the way you're wired, it's a choice.""if all the straight people would
just change""I sure wish the straight people would just quit being so
straight. It is so annoying."of course the above are ridiculous When we gay people hear straight people make comments like that about
gay people, that is exactly how they sound to us --- ridiculous ---and before anyone asks, no, I am not on any substances.
This blog has made a mockery of the Church. Members need to follow the Prophet.
PERIOD. There are some some poeple out there that need to see you Bishop. In
fact now that you will be seeing you Bishop for tithing settlement, you may want
to bring up your disdain for the teachings of the Church and the word of Father
in Heaven. Some of you are a piece of work.
was your post suppose to be irony? I am not saying it was not I am just
I only have one thing to say--LOL!
Okay folks calm down. We are all humans and we all make silly mistakes, and that
is okay. However, being a gay person is not okay, because it is deliberate.
so blog leader why not take the lead and direct the energy of the masses here to
do some good in the world? Maybe offer a way to bring people together for a
common humanitarian cause.
sorry "I hate people who are closed minded bigots" was suppose to be in
parenthesis in my last post as I was quoting "Beverly"
And there was much bickering on the land of BLOG, Saint against saint, John
against bloggers, until there were only devils left to comment about absolutely
what the heck? Show me where i stated that anyone should not be allowed to say
what they want. I was pointing out the irony of Johns post. The really funny
thing is you did the exact same thing he did. I hate people who are closed
minded bigots. Kind of a contradictory of terms don't you think. the only thing
i can figure out is that you somehow mistook my quote of John as my words. No
where did I ever claim that the LDS people all think alike. Anyway please reread
my previous post I think you may have misunderstood my point.
Kick all members out of the church who are trolls, and don't live perfect lives.
They all need to go!!!
John Lambert, it seems the burning in your bosom about Ed Decker and my having
"read or watched him" is wrong. Your "feelings" about another book, you know
the one, might be equally as wrong. In fact, I bet my life on it.
Thanks Eric,Most of the blogs here from both sides are simply
throwing epithets and are non-productive discourse. Lets express our opinions
with respect for one another, even if we do not agree with or respect the
other's point of view. Thank to the Beckett Fund, for your support
of religious freedom of speach and expression.
No Lambert, I didn't leave because of God makers and never saw the movie or read
the book though it was anonymously sent to me. I mentioned "temple attending"
because that is the degree of faithfulness that this person has for the church.
She is faithful enough to regularly (at least once a month) visit the temple AND
still welcomed into her home a young gay man at no cost to him (feeding and
housing him) but in loving kindness because that is what he needed and her
savior demands of her.I left not even because of judgmental people like
yourself but because I did not believe the Book of Mormon to have been authored
by God but by man.
"I have never heard any LDS leader ever say that. I have never heard a
disparaging remark about a LGBT from an LDS leader."Start with
chapter 6 of Miracle of Forgiveness. Move on to "To the One" by Boyd K Packer.
"I am willing to reach out with love to all church members." How gracious, John
To irony? hypocrasy,It sounds like you would like to build a NAZI
CAMP. I hate people who are closed minded bigots. What you don't realize is that
everyone (INCLUDING LSD) have minds of their own, and we all see things just a
bit different then the next guy. Hopefully, you are not a leader of ANYTHING!
people like you are scary. Just as Hitler was.
Nine pages of comments, frankly this is a little funny. if you are on page 6
good luck anyone reading anything you have said. I just wanted to see if we
could make it to 10.
"Personally I am glad to see the line drawn a little clearer about who is
willing to stand where in the fight for right and wrong though."What
a stupid comment.
"I am hoping the church soon cleans out Gaile and the other apostates. We have
no need of them. Maybe I am too harsh. However, people who glorify in building
division are out of whack. People who still work with people who have openly
vilified the church have issues. People who find common cause with those who
accuse President Monson of being a hypocrite, on the issue where that accusation
is lobbed, are really standing on shaky ground." Am I the only one
that sees the irony if not in this paragraph? I think it is a pretty good
summation of how John Pack Lambert thinks though. How is saying people that
build division are out of whack and also stating the church should clean out
Gaile and other apostates as well as stating that people that disagree with the
church have issues not being divisive?
TO Mary, On the one hand I have to say this is a discussion board not a
blog. You can go elsewhere on the internet and start a blog where you can write
about the MMM to your hears desire and not be restricted at all in what you say,
and only allow other comments from people who agree. I have a blog called
Mormoninmichigan where I do such a thing, just not on the MMM. Secondly,
there have in the past been articles in the DN on the MMM. I remember one where
people complained it was an insult that President Hinckley did not come himself
to the 150th anniversary commemoration but instead sent lowly Elder Eyring.
When Elder Eyring was called as a member of the FP less than a month latter, I
hoped some people learned a lesson, but I have come to realize somepeople will
gripe at anything.
To Linda J, Did they really say that the donations to their cause were
tax deductable? And all this time people have been saying that it was unfair
for the church to put tax-deductible money in the fight when the anti-8 people
couln't. Yet for some reason when the ProtectMarriage people sent me to
official notice on my $35 donation, they said it is not at all tax
deductible. Very, very interesting. How can they ask to remove our tax
deductible status when their tax-free entities are so much more involved in the
it a hoot alright thats what it is! lol
This blog is a hoot!
To the 3:58 commentator, While your logic would make sense, the way Tom
phrased his post it is almost 100% clear that he is not married to his aleged
"boyfriend". In fact, having dealt with people who get joy out of
making other people mad and uncomfortable, I would not be surprised if Tom has
no boyfriend at all. He probably tried a more explicit post, and when that did
not work settled for a moderate one that would go through. I also wish
the moderator would stop allowing deliberately provocative posts like the one
Is this the hour of LAMBERT?Those fingers of yours must get pretty
tired and sore typing all day long to those you disagree with.I was
wondering how I might find blog job too?
To: John Pack LambertSuggest you get a life and seek major intensive
To the 3:51 commentator, The Becket Fund is a real organization that
has existed for well over a decade. It is involved in a broad array of
litigation in favor of religious freedom. It has defended the rights of Sikhs
to build temples in California and Jews to build synogogues in Pennsylvania and
of Churchs to let homoeless people sleep on their door steps along Fifith Avenue
in New York City. The idea that the Church is "behind this ad" is just
To the 3:28 commentator, What scares me even more is when a business is
boycotted because the Church the owner belongs to urged its members in another
state to support a certain cause. Should people boycott Catholic owned
businesses in California because the Catholic Church urged its members in
Michigan to vote against legalizing embryonic stem-cell research?
TO the 4:39 commentator, You are right. I once read a comment by
someone saying he looked forward to when he could marry in our temple, just so
he could gloat about being able to do it and taunt us by having achieved
that. Since this guy obviously had no clue what goes on with marrying in
temples, I do not see it as a real threat. However, I think making the church
pay taxes on the temples and banning missionaries on the grounds that they
spread hate are very possible results if Prop 8 is overturned. The latter is
especially true considering how many people on the LA Times page I saw insist
that the ad showing missionaries ransacking a Lesbian couples home and tearing
up their marriage certificate was showing something that actually happened. I
wonder how many years in prison each of those missionaries got for home
To R, I have a strong suspicion that your reading or watching "The God
Makers" moved you on the path to apostasy. "Temple Going Mormon" is a bizarre
term designed to divide over something that is supposed to unify that comes out
of the destructive rhetoric of Ed Decker. I wish the moderators would
place a ban on all posts with terms drawn from "The God Makers" especially a
term that refers to an item meant to cover a window that is dividing the place
of the people of one heart from those elsewhere.
John Pack, We missed having Coffee together this morning....shucks!
To the 8:22 commentator, I am not sure if I should be saddened or laugh
at your comments. If you think that Focus on the family is a Mormon dominated
group you are really out of touch. To the 10:20 commentaotr, Well,
are you suprised that someone who posts under the name of Our Lord commits other
Sacrilege? In Acts the name Jesus once appears when they are actually talking
about the man who lead Israel in the time of the Battle of Jericho, ben means
son of and even though it is not biologically correct, since Mary was married to
Joseph this would be the recognized sonship of our Lord according to his
contemporaries. OK, maybe on its own my accusation of sacrilege with
that name is a bit much, but considering what else the commentator said, I have
would not be surprised if he was committing sacrilege from the first letter he
I agree 3:16What's the use of working for anything in this life if
there is only evil, hurt, pain, murders and thieves, sexual corruption etc, in
the next life? It certainly doesn't give a person much hope if we are just going
to end up in a eternal hell called heaven.
To Mr. 11:56, It is you who are the one who expresses hate. The worst
disdain I have seen on this board is the disdain you show towards those who have
turned to Christ and overcome their weakness, or maybe even repented from a
grevious sin. You, Mr. 11:56, are the one who does not believe the words
of Christ. You are like the Pharisees, not accepting that the power of Christ
can heal all sinners. You think you are better, because you assume that Christ
can heal all sins, and since you will not accept he can heal the homosexual, you
say it can not be a sin. Well, you are wrong. Christ can heal all
sins. No sinner is so deparved that he can not feel the love and outreach of
Christ. Maybe I am too slow to recognize that Christ can heal the intelectual
rebel. However, you deney that Christ can heal the person who has committed
sexual sins with one of the same sex, and have the extreme contempt towards
those who have come back and recovered from such afflictions to the point of
mocking them. That is just sickening.
Please get a clue. Love one another was one thing that Christ said. I believe
he mentioned repentance a time or two. If there is no sins then why mention
repentance?Love the sinner HATE the sin. It is really not that
difficult.The commandment was to "sin no more".If you go
with that then all you have to do is determine what a sin is which is obvious if
you have read the scriptures. Gay behavior makes it near top of the list.GLBT prefer to read only "select" sections of scripture though so they
can overemphasize one part of the gospel while blatantly ignoring what is also
mentioned so they can continue their behavior.Am I saying the rest
of us are without sin? Of course not--far from it but the difference is that I
don't expect my sinful behavior should be approved/endorsed/legalized by
everyone just because I choose to ignore what the Savior said about it. Whatever happened to calling a spade a spade. The liberal agenda of
political correctness has a purpose. Now it is not PC to say what used to
obviously wrong to most all. We can't hurt feelings now can we!! PLEEEEZ!!
To the 11:56 commentator, I take major objection to your assumption
that anyone who has overcome same-gender attraction can not legitimately speak
out against it as an unwise thing to pursue. Would you call a recovered
alchoholic a hypocrite for advocating tougher laws against drunk driving? Not a
very good analogy, but my point is that those who have dealt with and overcome
issues are the most qualified to speak on them. I am still unsure if
those who had same-gender attraction and never gave in or those who had sunk
deep into the abyss of homosexual actions and turned to Christ and through his
atoning gift came out are better able to speak out on the issue. I
think they both can give us perspective and understanding. However, Mr. 11:56,
it is the downright hate and bigotry you show against the recovered homosexual,
acting as if they have not expreienced the change of heart that they have, that
causes them to not speak out at all. You accuse the people who hold to the
teachings of the Church of being bigots. More.
re Matt. 23:13I hope heaven is shut for murderers, thieves, sinners etc,
or else what is the point of having a heaven & a hell.
To 10:33 and 10:21 and whoever else, Well, it seems spell check can not
save you. Some words are spelled more than one way, so you can still make
mistakes with it. I really liked the Chistmas devotional. No mention of
same-gender marriage at all. So much for the Church having been "Turned into a
political party". Of course, I guess it is too much to hope that the hate
mongers will let reality cramp their style. I am willing to reach out
with love to all church members. However when people start quoting the Doctrine
and Covenants and claim the First Presidency is in violation of it, I really do
think that it could not hurt if church leaders called them to a disciplinary
counsel. If it was someone I knew, I probably would try to speak with them and
show them the error of their logic, but when it is people who are so convinced
of it to use it as an attack on the leaders of the church in a public forum, it
is at least a first step on the road to apostasy.
Hello? Where is the Meadows Massacre blog? I have a lot to spew on that one. The
church had a right to be paranoid with the hostile wagon train. Where's the
comment section on this one, Mr Lambert?
To the 9:38 commentator and to the moderators, I think we can not just
make a blanket request to ban all anti-Mormon statements. I have an
idea. Can we implement a policy of banning false accusations against Joseph
Smith from the boards connected with articles that have 0 mentions of Joseph
Smith. Also, can we have a ban on the r word that is used to insult
people. Also, I think the ban on profanity needs to be more closely
To follow up on the 9:18 commentator, The issue that disturbes me is
that participation in elections should not put people's jobs in jeopardy.
It has gotten worse. Some people have called for a boycott on all Mormon run
businesses. To put pressure on a business to fire someone just because of what
religion they are violates the spirit of freedom of religion.
Hey, JOHN PACK LAMBERT,Good to see you onhere again. Some of us were
wondering where you had taken off too??? We need your input, it makes for a
better blog.Your comment was good, and I agree with you whole
heartily. You said it better then any of us.....Thanks my friend.
Mountain Meadows had nothing to do with marriage. It was the result of people
who were afraid that they would be killed, their wives raped, their homes burned
and so forth. It was war time hysteria, and not defensible. However
there were no federal laws against polygamy until 1862 (or maybe 1863) and
Mountain Meadows Massacre was 1857, so it was not an issue of polygamy.
Beyond this the church never sought laws that would give government approval to
polygamy, they only opposed laws that would criminalize it. Thus the
same-gender marriage analogy is built around ignorance and misinformation. No
one is going to jail because of Proposition 8.
Maybe my expression of hope the apostates will be cleaned out was a bit
harsh. However, I am sick and tired of people calling the First
Preisdency "Morally bankrupt". I think it is wrong to side with those who would
cause people to loose their jobs for following the direction of the First
Presidency. When did it people OK to shout "Mormon Scum".
Voting against Prop 8 is one think. Actively working against it, and choosing
to feel a divide in your ward over it are two things that indicate you have no
desire to build Zion.
To the people asking for evidence, Well Bash Back has claimed
responsibility for vandalizing an LDS Chapel in Olympia. So there is the
evidence connecting gay activists to the violence. I am hoping the
church soon cleans out Gaile and the other apostates. We have no need of them.
Maybe I am too harsh. However, people who glorify in building division are out
of whack. People who still work with people who have openly vilified the church
have issues. People who find common cause with those who accuse President
Monson of being a hypocrite, on the issue where that accusation is lobbed, are
really standing on shaky ground.
How can you be loving with gay people if their whole intent is to seduce you for
be friending them. They are always looking for a victim to draw into the
perverted life style. Give me a flippen break, man.
I'm sick of the mob mentality that is against prop 8. Protesters are full of
hate as they accuse peaceful actions as "hate".
to CP: Loving one another doesn't mean that you have to let them do whatever
they want. it doesn't mean that you have to agree with whatever they do. actions
of others affect more than just themselves, for good or bad.
so it's ok for a group of churches and members to intimidate each other and the
rest of society into "preserving" the sanctity of heterosexual marriage with
abhorrent divorce, adultry, and abuse rates to carry on mobocracy with a 52-48%
vote, but when the homosexuals decide to take on the same "mob" mentality they
are decried as evil incarnate. Pot, meet kettle.
The desire to have their (the LGBT) relationships "celebrated" by society stems
from negative experiences from family and friends when they came out of the
closet. I am not arguing that we support their lifestyle. However we need to
be loving towards them, even if they will despise us for our beliefs. We
needn't support their lifestyle, but we can try to support them in other ways
such as showing them that we're willing to serve them indiscriminately. Now on Prop 8, I noticed that many within the LGBT have a very different and
aberrated perspective on human sexuality. For instance although all the studies
indicate that the happiest people are those who are in longterm, monogamous
relationships there was a man who was "polyamorous." This is basically just an
intellectual word to mean that he's in a relationships with several people at
the same time. No offense to the LGBT, but I see a lot of confusion,
instability, sin and unhappiness stemming from allowing the LGBT movement to to
be lead our (the majority's) opinions/perspectives regarding human sexuality.
Please go form a gay religion, and get the heck out of the faces of all other
religions who do not support gay rights. Move along now, with you hate, and your
bigotry. We will survive well without you people and your sick perversions.
however, You gays will not survive, because you will never have a POSTERITY!
....from the gay community. Its our way or no way and if you don't agree we
will vandalize, threaten, and spew religous hatred.Very impressive.
Talk about low-life.Personally I am glad to see the line drawn a
little clearer about who is willing to stand where in the fight for right and
wrong though. There is more than one person who predicted this in
the latter days and the people who stand for right know what I am referring to.
The people who don't know are too busily engaged in their self-gratifying and
base behavior to figure it out.It is sexual preference 24/7 with
these people. There is absolutely zero balance in their lives--completely
myopic in their drive to gain acceptance for their aberrant behavior.News flash, even if it was legalized it was still be aberrant and WRONG and
you would still feel the same guilt you do now!! A law won't change that.Go get some help.
I am 100% Mormon. Being homosexual is not a sin! I can never fully understand
homosexuality because I am not gay. I am just very grateful I'm not gay because
whatever the cause is, it would be very difficult to deal with. I have never
heard any LDS leader ever say that. I have never heard a disparaging remark
about a LGBT from an LDS leader. We believe homosexual acts are a sin; however
we are quick to acknowledge the difference between a sin and the person
committing the sin. Condemn the sin, not the sinner. I am a student at
the U of U. A couple weeks ago a LGBT panel came and spoke to us. I am very
much pro prop 8 especially after the panel. We all spoke respectfully towards
each other. I learned from the panel. I don't feel angry nor hatred towards
them. However I realized that marriage to them is very different than what it
is to us. One of them defined it as a "public celebration of a partnership."
The reason this is such a big deal to LBGT is because they want acceptance in
the eyes of society.
FreeAgent: Well, I guess we can just be glad to know that you had no empathy in
the first place. If you want to see true empathy, check out the comment just
before yours from CP.
A couple more thoughts for those who question the LDS church's motives... Just
my opinion here but I believe the reason the church became so vocal regarding
this issue has less to do with caring whether or not two people can get married
and more to do with protecting itself from discrimination lawsuits. Mark my
words, the day is coming when someone sues the church for not allowing
homosexuals the same temple marriage they offer heterosexual couples. I know,
it sounds out there... but who would have guess that a gay couple would sue a
heterosexual matchmaking service not not offering service to them. Rather than
serch out a service for gays, or have enough business savy to maybe see an
opportunity and start one, they would rather try and force another business to
conform to what they want and if they don't, they will see you in court. Again,
this is just my opinion and is in no way meant to represent that actual motives
behind why the church took such a vocal stand on this issue.
How did Jesus act towards the money changers in the temple? Did he say "love
one another" then?
Wow ... a large amount of people commenting on this story must be crazy.
Violence? Mob rule? Thugs? This isn't some episode of "The
Sopranos". Aside from some property damage and the stupid white powder incidents
(both of which should be investigated and those responsible charged), there has
been very little going on. Much of the criticism has been from the LDS Church
itself, feeling unfairly attacked in spite of donating a large portion of the
monies to the "Yes on 8" movement. Gay groups have mostly already moved on,
working within the law to challenge Prop. 8's legality.
Where does the gay-marriage movement get the "hate" from--I have heard no hate
coming from the LDS Church, but news flash--mmembers of the LDS Church are also
citizens and have a right to vote and enjoy freedom of speech. The gay-marriage
movement is the group spreading hate, which of course is using THEIR freedom of
speech in a destructive manner. Who are they trying to convince rhat they are
being mistreated when they spew hatred and venom. If I had ever had any empathy
toward the gay-marriage movement, it would be out the window now because of the
behavior of some who seem to get the publicity.
I'm an active Mormon. I could give hoot if a man and a man or woman and woman
marry. It does not redefine how I see marriage. They can have their definition
of happiness and I will have mine. If they are my next door neighbor I will
graciously love them as Christ asks us to. I will let my kids play with theirs.
I will be their friend. Have we forgotten one of Christ's biggest teachings?
Love one another.
The more those against Prop 8 protest, and boycott, and spread their hate agenda
the more they look bad. So go ahead! Your violence and your bigotry can never be
justified. Truth and right will prevail over these mob tactics. You think the
end you want justifies the means you take, but you are wrong. Those in the wrong
often have clouded judgement though. Cooler heads are prevailing. Your means
will not bring about the end you want, but rather an end to your hate agenda.
People of faith united to vote their conscience on Prop 8. They are
welcome to their opinion. If you seek to force your opinion on the majority, it
will unite against you. But because the right side on this issue is not for
hatred, for violence, or protesting human rights (such as voting), it will only
get stronger as your immoral actions increase against us. All you have done is
help the cause for right. Thanks!
No one has anything to PROVE to any bigot gay. If you don't like things the way
they are-then go start your own gay church and leave all other religions alone!
None have asked you to butt-in and change our status and views on marriage
between a man and a woman. So please go away and take you hate with you. We are
just fine without you.
To all of you who say that this and other articles were paid for by the church -
give me and others your facts about this - or shut up! This gets very tireing...
If you have prove then show it...I don't believe the church did
this. But, I am willing to learn something new. Show me the prove and then I
will believe you....
Prop 8 did NOT eliminate rights for homosexual couples in California it just
confirmed the DEFINITION of marriage as between a man and woman. Civil
Unions/Domestic Partners still have the same rights as hetersexual married
couples. So this was NOT a civil rights issue but one of the activist
homosexual community trying to infringe on/or eliminate the religious aspect of
marriage. Also where is the outcry from the homosexual community with respect
to the other two states that passed propositions confirming the definition of
This is all about Constitutional law and how it is made, according to the
framers of the Constitution. When you want to amend the Constitution, you amend
by vote. Using judges instead of a Constitutional VOTE is a back door to "get
things done", and is WRONG and tyrannical. The majority of California can see
what damage this (rule by judges) will do to our country's rights and liberties.
I can see it, too. Those who advocate judicial tyranny obviously don't care.
We live in a Democracy. We vote on stuff expecting some of us not to get our
way. The GLTS community is not being killed, as in Nazi Germany. They have
simply been told that the rest of us, thankfully the majority, want to keep one
of the most sacred acts we do, i.e., getting married, a sacred act. But it'
much more than a "tradtion". It makes practical sense, even beyond the much
greater incidence of STD's and HIV.Gay couples who adopt are 67%
more likely to get divorced than straight couples. Lesbian couples who adopt
are 200%!!! more likely to divorce, according to a massive study in Sweden. We
all know how horrible the effects of divorce are. On top of the societal, self
esteem and lifestyle challenges these adopted kids face, we are also giving them
much greatert likelihood of being brought up in a broken family.So
also practically, psychologically and emotionally, the act of gay marriage is
destructive to our country's populus. Prop 8 didn't outlaw being
gay, just that gay people can't share the term "marriage" with us straight
people. Big deal! You people are smart. Figure out another word for it!
The bigot gays need to get out of town if they don't like the beliefs of
religious people. They need to learn to mind their own business and quit trying
to corrupt the world with their funny business. Who needs them...NOBODY!
This doesn't prove anything except that there are wealthy Mormons who are
willing to continue their bigotry by taking out an expensive ad in the New York
Times trying to get other bigoted Mormons to be PROUD of their bigotry!Why be proud of something so deplorable? You people are worse than the
Sorry but I am old nough to remember what happened in Hawaii when the gay's were
allowed to marry there. That is exactlly what the gays there tried to do - and
then tried to chose the church down because they would not permit it.We learn lessons from history - just as we will remember the actions of the
gay community when the next time this comes up for vote.
The biggest irony of all is that the LDS Church is concerned about the sanctity
of marriage between one man and one woman. The media publicity blitz of the
past 18 years by the LDS Church trying to rewrite history is shameful. Are they
interesting in saving souls or stealing them?
Ellen Degenress and Hollywood are both no longer allowed in my home. They are
perverting the world.
I also do not have time to read all of the responses, but wish I could. However,
read this one. Regarding the original article, there is another terrible
onslaught to the LDS Church which has not yet received much attention. In the
Gay/Lesbian Southern California Newsletter, called the Vanguard, the editors of
this publication are urging their people to donate to to overturn Prop. 8. They
state and I quote: "For every tax-deductable donation of $5 or more, the Center
will send a postcard to Mormon Church President Thomas Monson, informing him a
donation was made in his name to support efforts to overturn Prop. 8." I find
this a shameful attack to humiliate the Church. I heard that about 2,000 cards
have already been sent. However, seeing the response of so many individuals and
organizations in support of the Church, this latest tactic may be a good thing.
Some people on here need remember which sex they were born to be and why? And
get over yourselves.
Homosexuals are incapable of consummating a marriage. It is as simple as that.
I would agree that Homosexuals deserve a contract that legally protects their
interests but that marriage is not the appropriate contract since it covers very
The only difference is that you are bigoted in the name of sex, attempting to
legitimize high risk behavior with the time honored word "marriage." For the
record, I am not LDS and do not practice any religion. To me it comes down to
The "left" allows preaches tollerance and love...until they have to actually
succcumb it. Boy, how the worm has turned...it's about time. Never
estimate the power of God, just ask all those tollerant loving, "everyone,s a
winner," "make love not war" citizens of Sodom & Gomorha, they found out real
fast who was right.The No on 8 crowd better start thanking the Yes
on 8 saviors, because that what they now are...to all of you....Hello??!!
I better do one more comment for good luck. I love you.
One should wage political war in a political arena, not on the streets. The LGBT
community has only hurt their cause by acting out violently. They need public
support. How can the public support this violent behavior? Greater political
efforts and money should have been spent to support their cause before the vote
GBLT has back the GM cause 30 years......never will Gay Marriage be tolerated in
America with these thugs!
It's time men act like MEN and women act like WOMEN! Stop playing these silly
games!!! You are who you are, and made the way you are, because GOD planned it
I suppose you think that Rosa Parks was an uppity "sore loser" too--just like
gays are. This is not about a fotball game or voice of the people by "popular
vote." This is about basic human rights. You bet we are angry and WE TOO SHALL
OVERCOME. Blacks had to keep on fighting and so will we.
What this really come down to is whether or not society is going to tolerate
alternative lifestyles. The homosexual community should not kid themselves.
Government decides everyday what two consenting adults can and can not do,
period! Two consenting adults cant do drugs, engage in prostitution, etc.
Those lifestyle choices fall outside the bounds of what most people are willing
to accept in our society. Because you calim your lifestyle in the name of love
doesn't mean that your civil rights have been violated. So the
religious voice in this country, maybe particularly the Mormons, stood up and
said we don't agree. That is thier right in this country just as if they had
said we don't accept prostitution. Perhpas thier message just resonated with
voters more than the alternative lifestyle.
I don't have time to read all 368 comments but would love to. The LDS have never
advocated intimidation or violence of any other lifestyles; we do take a stand
at moral issues, and same sex marriage is one of them.We do not
believe same gender marriage is moral, just as many westerners do not believe
plural marriage is legal or moral.We all vote our conscience, but we
try not to be arrogant or tolerant of violence towards anyone.
Thank You Gay Community for teaching me about your brand of democracy.I voted for John McCain but Barack Obama got over 52% of the vote like Prop. 8
did.I must now protest all offices of the DNC. Stage rallies
against every group that supports the democrat party and threaten their most
active supporters.Finally, I will try to get the courts to reverse
outcome of the election. Do you give independent study courses of your tactics?
Gay marriage would not impact individual marriages, but it would impact overall
marriage.Another reality is that children raised in gay marriage are
more likely to experiment with homosexual relationships and are more promiscuous
based on studies. This in turn will unfortunately bring about more std
including AIDS/HIV especially since gay sex is the NUMBER 1 risk factor for the
disease and a primary exclusion question for donating blood. In other words, if
gay sex was like typical straight sex, why are those that participate excluded
from blood donation? OH, I know. It isn't about sin (I'm agnostic anyway) it is
a biological outlier that has negative consequences including the termination of
the species. Two other exclusion question include i.v. drug use and sex with
prostitutes. I suppose we could be like Holland and legalize those as well, but
wait, it seems that Holland realizes the issues and is closing that down.
Some of the comments made by my fellow LDS members here are arrogant and
unbecoming a member of the Church.Remember who we are, and treat
those with differing opinions with the repsect they are due as children of God.
We may disagree, but we don't need to be arrogant.
Step out into the WORLD and express your views while stepping on peoples toes,
as well as thier own views, of course, then.. one should expect to be stepped
on, themselves. Stay out of the politics and the heat that it involves, if you
cant take the heat of the oven...
All religions' moral voices and political rhetoric aside, as a father why should
or would I EVER vote in support of any life-style[s] that would tend to
abbreviate or cut short the life span of any of my children (i.e. my sons)...
SS | 11:28 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008This is quite different, SS.I am not espousing hate or animosity.But I am espousing a
revisitation of the facts.Take a look back at Prop 22, when it
passed --- gays did not have the right to marry, so it was no loss.It was more like going on to find the ultimate goal of gay marriage.Finally, when it happened, then it was taken away, by a campaign largely
sponsored by a group who has roots in Utah --- do you see why they would place
their target there.Surveys show that a lot of people, after the
fact, were confused at the poll with Prop 8.What staunch "Yes on 8"
supporters propose is that, the election is over, get on with your lives, it is
lost. And they want the gays to give up.Many of us have been
awaiting for this --- and it is suddenly yanked.The reason for the
confusion at the polls --- because of the campaigning, many equated marriage
with the religious implications even though they had no intention on targeting a
minority group and depriving them of a right given by courts
Can anyone tell me what those against prop 8 expected the religious community to
do? Did you think that religions would just move aside and let the
C. S. Court dictate US morals? Do you think that millennia of
religious teachings would just be ignored? That religious people
would forgo their right to vote?That a blatant attack on traditional
marriage would be over looked? Christ taught his followers to go
into the world teaching repentance, to have no tolerance of sin. Christ did not
cast a stone at the adulteress, but he also did not forgive her, and commanded
her to sin no more.You may call this hate, or bigotry, but it
remains a fundamental part of Christianity. Religious people must
fight immoral activity. They must use their voice to protect gods will. They
must go on record as voting against such things whether in an election or in
life. They will be expected to answer to god otherwise. If same sex
marriage becomes legal, those who on principle fought this fight will be able to
stand before god and say they stood on his side. To give in or
remain silent would be rejecting Christ.
Gays hating LDS for their moral stand?....just another day at the
Yep, gays posting as Mormons just like the FLDS pose as women. Messed up people!
Re: Embarrassed Mormon,Oh come on, man! You are no kind of a Mormon, so
quit trying to fool the rest of us on here with your phony baloney.... No way
Why is it "gays vs Mormons" anyway? Didn't 53% of voters in California vote for
this thing? Didn't similar measures pass by even bigger margins in other
states?Why aren't the angry gay rights folks posting on boards read
by blacks, hispanics, Catholics, Baptists and other groups?Mormons,
don't take the bait on this. It will blow over. No need to get pulled into a
rancorous argument that we have little/no influence over anyway (Prop 8 would
have passed with or without the LDS and is now a done deal).Gays,
don't be manipulated by the hateful anti-Mormons. These are the most unhappy
people on the planet and couldn't care less about you and your cause. They were
founded by Missouri rednecks and have no purpose in life except to drag everyone
else down to their level. As soon as they're through using you, they'll turn on
you like they do everyone else.
I have to admit that as I read many of these comments I am embarrssed by the
comments and vitriole of some of my fellow church members. Christ's example was
one of effecting change through peace, love, meekness, kindless, forgiving, etc.
If we want to long-term results, this is the only way we will get it.
Otherwise I have to agree with many of the commenters that Mormons seem to be
looking for a cause and a fight as much as anybody, which is a sad commentary on
what we have become after all we have been through.
The LDS church is growing so fast outside of US territory any problems it faces
in the US is padded. And truth is this article shows the LDS church has
unexpected allies in the US. People who do not like the old, traditional ways of
the LDS church will reject it. But as other religions succumb to immoral
pressures their more traditional followers will move into LDS support and
membership. In the end this will boost its membership and influence. The worst
thing the LDS church could do would be to be quiet on the moral issues we face.
Mobs ran the LDS church out of the US, killed its first prophet and brother, has
spread lies and hate about them for nearly two centuries and still it survives
and grows stronger. To the point even that you blame it for the passing of prop
8. These moral battles only strengthen its membership and weeds out the weak.
The greater the wind it pushes against the stronger the legs it builds.
Here are some quotes from some of the most respected voices in our nation's
history to consider as you mull over the ideas of rights and personal freedoms
that are being discussed in this forum:We have staked the whole
future of American civilization not upon the power of the governmentfar from it.
We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity
of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of
God.--James Madison (often referred to as the father of the Constitution)We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human
passions unbridled by morality and religion.--John AdamsI thank God
that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her
independence and freedom if she will. It depends upon her virtue.--Samuel Adams
(Often referred to as the father of the American Revolution)If I
could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to
render the liberty of conscience insecure, no one would be more zealous than
myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny
and every species of religious persecution.--George Washington
The LDS church and it's members have been attacked; verbally and violently since
the restoration, so what's new? Church officials and members have turned the
other cheek; time and time again and will continue to do so. It's very
commendable of the Beckett Fund to have the LDS Church's back at this time.
To: "Scott M. | 8:39 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008"You're right, we gays will
not stop the LDS Church. You are doing a good enough job yourselves.
Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve. The vote has been cast and marriage won. Get
over it sore looooseerrs.
That's the folks asking for tolerance while being violently intolerant!
Loving other as a tenant, thats a good one! I see very much contention and
distain within in a wards I have attended, not mention the attitude toward
non-members. This is not taken seriously within the Chruch, lets be serious.
Knee bitters annoy but the caravan moves on. You gays are rediculious but will
not stop the growth or presence of the LDS Church.
"bgubler | 6:00 p.m. Dec. 5, 2008 I wondered how long it would take the
LDS and Mormons to grab the victim role. Mormon's don't practice there religious
fundamental doctrine regarding marriage. When a step towards a legal change that
would step towards to a legal practice as to second sealing in DC Section 132
(polygamy) . One doctrine that is not currently practiced because of the law of
the land. But claim to a necessary sacrament for Mormons to reach their highest
level in heaven."Nice try, "bgubler".But wrong.
Again.The LDS church does not now, nor has it ever, nor will it
ever, teach that in order for a man or a woman to be exalted in the highest
degree of glory in the Celestial Kingdom, that one MUST enter into a polygamous
relationship.So what does exaltation require?- Faith in
Jesus Christ as your Savior.- Repentance.- Baptism by
immersion by one who has authority from God to do this act.- The
receiving of the Holy Ghost. - A marriage "for time and eternity"
performed in the Lord's temple by Priesthood authority.- Continual
obedience to God, which is, primarily, loving others.
I can't speak for Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve.But hey, Roger and
Dan were good boyfriends.John.
Joyce:I have worked for a number of Humanitarian org.s over the
years---all funded by smart corporations who know how to make a good business
deal so they can support more humanitarian projects. I'm certain the LDS Church
Corporation will make far more money on the mall deal than they spend. And those
profits will help feed the world. By focusing on their own selfish wants, the
radical gays are forgetting that 2/3s of the world lives in want. Who cares
about prop 8? LDS send out half a billion dollars a year to impoverished
communities. How about getting the Gay Community and the Becket group to match
the LDS Humanitarian effort. Maybe working together on something would end all
this mote and beam stuff and refocus this energy on True Religion. I guarantee
one summer spent in a Ugandan orphanage and you won't care who lives with whom
or who or whatever. The people voted, now the people have to move on. Peace to
my Gay friends and Peace to the Mormon church.
Legalizing marriage for gays will not make it right. It is wrong. The Lord
will not approve such a lifestyle even if the law allows it. The LDS church has
an opinion, the gays have an opinion. The two are never going to agree.
Marriage is between a man and a woman. Children have a right to be raised in a
home with a father and a mother whenever possible. Sex outside of marriage is
wrong. These are true principles. Satan's power in the world is evident by the
many comments on both sides of this issue which demonstrate hate instead of
love. Satan knows that if he destroys the family, he will destroy society. The
truth will prevail, the righteous will win the war. No amount of mob violence
will stop the work of the Lord from going forth among all nations, kindreds,
tongues and peoples. The day will come when all will confess that Jesus is the
"Now opposed to LDS | 7:35 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008 I don't care how many
Christian Right friends give the LDS church kudos for spending millions on their
gay pogrom -- I went from completely neutral on the LDS organization to being a
vociferous opponent. The LDS is a dangerous corporate organization that exists
freely only by the very constitution they paid to change to hurt a fellow
minority. I think they're unChristian, unChristlike, and, to be sure, not
Christians at all. I will not ever, ever forgive the LDS."OK, don't
forgive us; first, we've done nothing wrong. Second, your anger will hurt no
one but yourself. In the end you will not relish the consequences of your
anger.The caravan moves on!
I really get tired with people like you describing me! What color or hair do I
have? Am I thin/fat? Am I tall/short???? Come on you seem to think that you know
me so well...As a young girl I went to several different churches - and as
an adult I have also gone to several different churches. I have studied many
different religions Christian and other wise.As a missionary I got to know
different perople with different ideas ... I AM NOT a blind sheep!!! I have been
to college ... I know how to read and think and discuss and pray!I am
sorry that you felt a need to leave the church (if in fact you were ever really
in it). But, I am in for the long haul! I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet
of God and that Thomas S Monson is a living prophet of God today. You trying to
pass judgement on a people as a whole just shows you for not a very nice person
at all. I would rethink that if I were you.
I don't care how many Christian Right friends give the LDS church kudos for
spending millions on their gay pogrom -- I went from completely neutral on the
LDS organization to being a vociferous opponent. The LDS is a dangerous
corporate organization that exists freely only by the very constitution they
paid to change to hurt a fellow minority. I think they're unChristian,
unChristlike, and, to be sure, not Christians at all. I will not ever, ever
forgive the LDS.
If the LDS Church loses its tax exempt status for exercising its right to
believe (and I assume other churches would fit into this situation as well),
that is a clear violation of church and state and I, for one, would be willing
to take up arms in a civil war to defend the first amendment.But I
feel this is a far-fetched scenario and have yet to see a single gay rights
poster on here asking for that. While I am not certain what it is they DO want
from the LDS church, I'm fairly certain they do not wish to marry in our
churches or temples or even belong to the church.
I live in Montana and last summer a couple of racists chased out a group of
cambodians who were picking mushrooms. When a big portion of the community
condemned the acts of the racists the racists did an amazing thing... they
started to complain persecution and that their rights to be racists were being
infringed upon by the intimidation of those who condemned their racists acts.To me this sounds kind of like the same thing. The religious folks work
hard to take away the rights of a group of people and when people become
outraged at their actions, the religious people start complaining of bigotry!
To Anonymous | 4:39 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008And while someone might ---some atheist might also want to sue the LDS Church for not marrying them
in the Church/temple, etc.I am applying the same principle to both
circumstances.And while you are in the right that someone might ---
that someone will not win in Court.Churches do have the right to
marry whom they will.
Iowa is the next in line. LDS stand up and look to Iowa. We must stand stong
with Iowa and tow the rope. We are the chosen and will lead this to victory.
Seems that reason and discussion have been abandoned by radicals for
intimidation and selfish feelings.
Hey a million plus based on billions that are bilked. Come on now. And oh yes
how is that multi-billion dollar mall going to help the humanitarian effort.
Thanks for playing.
"We, as gays, do not want to marry in your temples, thank you very much or in
your chappels or any other places of worship by your clergy."SOMEONE
out there is going to want to. You can't speak for every single gay person, as I
can't speak for every LDS person. But someday, someone will want to, and the
church is going to lose tax exempt status. Do you know how much money the LDS
church gives per day in humanitarian aid? On average over $1,000,000. That's
going to be taxed. So is my tithing and fast offerings.
Funny | 7:45 p.m. Dec. 6, 2008 Funny how the only people who are closed
minded and set in their ways are the religious right. Everyone else is really
open minded to new ideas. As long as they are new ideas that they happen to
agree with.The hypocrisy from the left is sickening**********Hypocrisy is considered wrong by those who believe in the
teachings of Christ. Hence most adolescents learn that this can be a very
powerful attack against their parents when they are trying to get what they
want. However, it doesn't hold the same sway over someone who doesn't believe
it's wrong to be a hippocrit if it gets them what they want.
To "Anonymous | 4:01 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008"you prove my point, exactly
--- which I was trying to make.Gays will not be allowed to marry in
the temple just in the same way that atheists and agnostics won't.We, as gays, do not want to marry in your temples, thank you very much or in
your chappels or any other places of worship by your clergy.And no
I'm not taking crazy pills ---
opinions kind of like facts | 7:45 p.m. Dec. 6, 2008 While I believe the
LDS church is right in their position I must say I loved your reference to green
jello. I had to laugh.
The facts remain: the Mormons got directed into the voting booth in California.
It was a religion voting, not the individuals. Mormons are closer to sheep at
times than are goats. Sad, but true.I expect the Mormon leadership
to bask in the glow of others defending them. But look at the list of the
defenders and you will see intersting traits; top down, we are picked on, we
must gather together.If the Mormon Church, purposely chose to get
straight and involved in the California election, then that said body is a
poltical party, not a religion. Yeah... call them as they are.
To Doyle | 2:07 p.m. Dec. 7, 2008It would seem, if this issue were
getting positive PR for the LDS Church, you want want this issue to drag and
on...after all, you are the ones getting more investigators.hey, so just keep it going...
To Lets Make History | 1:49 p.m. And as long as you're at it...make sure to reverse every landmark court decision ---oh, I
don't know...take the vote away from women, for examplego back
to segregationfeel free to add to the list...
"Atheism and agnosticism is also agaisnt your religion!!!!And you
allow them to marry!And many of your religious gays you do not."The LDS church will not allow Agnostics or Atheists to marry in
the temple. Are you taking crazy pills?
"Yes, I would compare gay marriage to heaven. I'm in heaven every time I kiss my
boyfriend." I assume that you must be married to kiss your boyfriend
then, Tom? Or that you ARE married? I could say, "I compare drugs with Hell,"
even though I've never done drugs.
I will be disappointed to hear that the LDS Church paid for this ad - as many
posters have stated as fact - but the church said it didn't pay for it and I'll
take them at their word.I do agree, though, that the ad was not
necessary. We can either stir the pot and whip up everyone to a frenzy or we
can act like adults and find common ground. I think the issue was beginning to
calm down.BTW, I don't live in UT, CA or NY and no one I know in my
state has even mentioned Prop 8, the protests, or the LDS church involvement.Don't buy into the idea that this is somehow a battle being fought on a
national stage - it's probably the 350 people on here posting and that's about
it who are paying attention.In my state, a very liberal state, gay
marriage was trounced by the voters a few years ago and I've never heard a word
about it since.
It's apparent that some LDS people have DOUBLE standards. It looks like the
division is beginning to happen. Some people will go this way and others will go
that way. Whatever matters is what feels good to each individual. Some are full
of love while others are filled with hate, judgment and contention. What a true
Re: "To lkidler", I'm glad to hear that business hasn't changed much in Utah,
from this "boycott". I'm an LDS business woman. It just hurts to think of a
business being boycotted because of how its owner voted, or what cause he/she
donated to. I have many gay customers, and although I disagree with their
lifestyle, I like them. It's gratifying to see Richard's delight when he buys
another lemon meringue pie! One day he started to tell me about the "Mormons",
and I told him that as a Mormon, I knew that statements against us are very much
exaggerated. I told him these exaggerations were perpetrated by disgruntled
ex-Mormons. He continues to shop at my bakery, and get his friends hooked on my
Gayism is not natural.
No one is entitled to marry who they wish. That's why we have laws. You
can't marry your sister or brother, whithout breaking the law either. At one
time there was large support for slavery--did that make it right?This is not a civil rights issue--it's a common sense one. I know that just
because I want something doesn't mean that I have a legal right to it. Even if
Prop 8 had failed it would still be wrong for gays to marry. That does not mean
that I dislike gay people, I just believe that some things are inherently right,
and others inherently wrong. Where did all the common sense go?
NO NO NO! It's Eve and Adamaria. What's wrong with you people!
ADAM and EVE not Adam and Steve. What don't you anti not get about that. It has
been voted on. Now move on and get out of the way. The caravan is in
high gear and attracting more and more investigators as we speak. Thanks to the
Gay community as intrested has peaked to a new level with this and more and more
people will come to the church. Thank you all, thank you all but this is getting
Let this die already. I think it is sad to keep this going. The mormon church
taking out ads is not going to make this situation go away. Mormons should just
take their lumps already and move on. I have no idea why you would want to
string this out. It is bad PR and has split and hurt the church in so many ways.
Move on with the issue and let the fine mormon members move on as well. This
does not one justice
You are all insane said:Once this hits the U.S. Supreme Court all
bets are off. The gays will get what they want because of the 14th amendment.
And they should to because the government, or even some moral majority,
shouldn't be in the business of telling a person who they should and shouldn't
be with or associated with.Once that does happen, it
will outrage most of the people of this country to the point where they will put
pressure on their state legislatures to vote to call a constitutional convention
to consider an amendment to the U.S. constitution defining marriage as between
one man and one woman. It seems like the vocal minority is
determined to make same sex marriage the law of the land through judicial
interference. If that is the case, then it is also time for the majority to
exercise its constitutional rights by lobbying their state legislators to
support a constitutional convention. It will be a grass roots movement
bypassing the U.S Senate and House, since both branches have been reluctant to
bring the issue to a debate.
The Mormons are just doing what the rest of us are thinking. Funnier still is
that we vote and the Mormons take the shaft.
I am exmormon. I did not leave the church because people were hateful, some
were some weren't, but because I don't share the same belief system. I know a
temple going mormon that took in a gay young man, housing and feeding him for
months and never expecting or getting a penny in return. Is that the hatred of
which you write?
re: Joshua ben JosephI was suprized that you were so selective regarding
quoting scripture, did you forget or just choose to ignore the many scriptures
deploring homosexuality and the those upholding the santity of marriage between
a man and a women only.Is this a case of wanting to make Heavenly Father
agree with you, rather that you agreeing with Him?
Regarding the religious angle...We keep using the religious angle to
argue one side of the issue about the other.I say, LDS have the
right to believe that "a marriage is between a man and a woman" --- in their
Church.However, you take that belief and try to justify it with...
oh, I don't know, an agnostic or an atheist, for example... (I am not one, BTW),
but agnostics and athesists have a right to marriage even if they do
not believe in God.Religious peoples allow agnostics and atheists
the right to marry, regardless of their religious beliefs, by the voice of the
majority, as many claim.In the same breath, religious people turn
around, and say "No, religious people, in this case gay, (some gays are
religious --- me, for example) cannot marry.In one instance you
issue agnostics and atheists because it is a right of the state... not the
Church.In the next, for the gays... you say, "no you cannot marry
because it is against our religion"Atheism and agnosticism is also
agaisnt your religion!!!!And you allow them to marry!And
many of your religious gays you do not.Pourquoi?
Regarding "the history of marriage"I keep seeing comments that from
the Yes on 8 folks that that the campaign was about "restoring marriage" and a
"return to tradition"The implied Message delivered: Restoring is a
good thing. Tradition is a good thing. It's like America and apple pie.Look in history dotcom, type in "marriage" and you will see lists and
lists of articles showing that "marriage between one man and one woman" has not
always been traditional nor is it good to restore it to that.When we
say "restore marriage" --- restore it to what, exactly?There are
articles about concubines, Henry VIII comes to mind, polygamy throughout
history, feudalism, property rights, inter-racial marriage not being allowed,
divorce, women not being able to hold property, and on and on... - - - - many of
these things in history happened under the name of religion, many under the name
of tradition, many under the subjugation of the oppressors oppressing the
weak.This whole talk about "restoring marriage" to "tradition" is
not quite gelling.
Yes, I would compare gay marriage to heaven. I'm in heaven every time I kiss my
If this ammendment had failed in California, what would have been the next step
for the gay/lesbian community? I doubt they would stop there. Next most likely
would be suing for access to be married in the LDS Temples, saying they were
being discrimanted. That is why we pushed so hard for Prop 102 in Arizona,
because you know that it would not stop at just recognizing the union of the two
individuals. Also, the gay/lesbian community needs to go after the Apostle Paul,
for he many times came out against the homosexual lifestyle, which is what the
LDS Church is doing. I am willing to follow my God's commandments rather than be
politically correct with individuals that have no tolerance for me and my
Seperation of church and state has been misinterpreted by the liberals.it is
only one way-the church do not want the state to tell them how they should be
run.the other way does not apply.It will be shocking to many that it is not even
in our constitution
Joshua ben Joseph! did you really just compare gay marriage with heaven?!
Very boring, dumb, and stupid.
I'm with a number of posters on this one.The Gay and Lesbian population
should stop doing business in any way, shape or fashion with LDS peoples and
ANYONE can place an ad in the New York Times. Why is this "news?" I would
guess that Mormons are involved in placing the ad, same as they were when the
"petition" by "other" religions supporting the Mormon church was circulated.
Yes but it is your responsability to bridal your passions like Jesus Christ
taught his Apostles. He never said it would be easy He just said it would be
worth it...and yes we Mormons Love all people gay or not gay....I love them all
Let us be faithful in keeping the commandments of the Lord; for behold he is
mightier than all the earth, then why not mightier than [the LGBT] and
[their] fifty, yea or even than [their] tens of thousands? 1
Nephi 4:1He has promised that we will be safe upon this land as long
as we obey His commandments. I am not afraid of the LGBT, I'm going to do what
the Lord says.
It's not a homosexual person's fault for having an attraction to persons of the
same gender. What's wrong is to express that attraction sexually. At least
that's what most Biblical scholars say. And that's why many nationally known
gays are either agnostic or atheistic -- they think they're right and that God
is wrong. Therefore, there could not be a God. I don't want gays forcing my
government to accept homosexual activity as normal and something to be
acceptable and condoned, which government-approved marriage would do.
I am not reading the comments, but I am getting a feel on both sides and it is
pretty hostile. I am ultra conservative, and I never agree with anyone who is
pro life bombing abortion clinics. I am against gay marriage but for rights for
gay couples, but I would never attack verbally gay people. Last
month in General Conference we were told to use kind words, to not engage in
heated discussions, we were prepared for what was going to happen, but from the
mean spirited comments from many LDS, I don't think that message got across.
I believe that good Christian people, who are trying to follow the
example and ways of the Savior need to be careful about getting sucked into the
fight. I can see that there are words of hate on both sides, but I believe that
those who were give council by their church leaders to avoid this are at more
fault. What happened to "love the sinner, not the sin". If the LDS here would
just keep there mouths (fingers) quiet, you would not see such hateful blogs
here. It is so easy to get sucked into it and best to avoid.
hey "adam and steve", you are a typical intolerant, judgemental biget.....what
if adam enjoyed being with steve? people like you are probably the result of
white knuckling repression of your own homosexual feelings or have had to deal
with someone close to you who struggled with gay feelings so you start lobbing
out insults and anger so that you can hide the true situation behind your own
Oh Please! The Adam & Steve things has wore itself out! Give it a break and find
another stupid praise.
The comments have literally gone down hill in the last half hour. Some of what
has been written is totally unschooled and retarded. Ive had it with all of you,
and I'm going to bed-GOODNIGHT!
No more ADAM AND STEVE. The Prophet has mad this clear.
You are lucky that you have ACTUALLY SEEN SO MANY people who are interested in
the church. I don't know where you live but it is not the same here in our neck
of the woods.. Anyway, I'm happy that you KNOW SO MANY. That is very
Stop it already. Investigators are drying up and the image of the Church is nose
diving. You people who think it is a calling to defend the Church on a message
post are insane. This is just crazy; you make a mockery of yourself and the
Church. Your should be ashamed. Stop it, you are making it worse.
Marvin J Ashton, former Apostle for the LDS Church gave the following talk in
the May Ensign 1978.Certain people and organizations are trying to
provoke us into contention with slander, innuendos, and improper
classifications. How unwise we are in todays society to allow ourselves to
become irritated, dismayed, or offended because others seem to enjoy the role of
misstating our position or involvement. Our principles or standards will not be
less than they are because of the statements of the contentious. Ours is to
explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts.
Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral issues of the day and the
eternal principles of the gospel, but to contend with no man or organization.
Contention builds walls and puts up barriers. Love opens doors. Ours is to be
heard and teach. Ours is not only to avoid contention, but to see that such
things are done away."Contention is of the DEVIL, lets not get
caught in this trap (3 Ne. 11:29, 30.) Let us follow the counsel of the
Apostles and Prophets.
I wonder if this is why President Hinkley had us read the Book of Mormon, so we
can remember that are joy shall be full forever if we endure the crosses of the
world and despise the shame of it. 2 Nephi 9:18.
ADAM AND EVE. No more adam and steve. What don't you people get about this.
CHOOSE THE RIGHT.
To the gays:You lost, deal with it. You might find more success in
your cause if you employed Dale Carnegie's thoughts on how to win friends and
influence people. If somebody doesn't believe the same as you it doesn't mean
you need to go out and protest against them. All it does is show that your
intellect doesn't have room for the fine are of persuasion.To all
the Mormons on here:Are you really so insecure in your faith that
you need to come here and attack the gays for their own beliefs. Don't Mormons
deal with enough attacks on their beliefs that they should be sensitive to
others plights? Go home and spend time with your families, for I am certain that
they could benefit far more from your attention than the mindless arguing you
partake in here.To everybody else:Once this hits the
U.S. Supreme Court all bets are off. The gays will get what they want because of
the 14th amendment. And they should to because the government, or even some
moral majority, shouldn't be in the business of telling a person who they should
and shouldn't be with or associated with.
Haven't seen the members against members and have actually seen others
interested in our church. This has really been a good thing where I am at. I
don't see where it is breaking my ward apart. Not even close. And again, I
have only seen people wanting to know more about our church, because they
appreciate our standing for good things, right things. This will not stop the
progression of the church. Nothing has in the past and it won't now. It will
continue to grow. Believe it or not, those that post such bad things only help
us, because it makes people more curious. They then choose to investigate our
beliefs, and many join.
Those that keep asking for the evidence about the protest against the LDS church
obviously have not watched the news coming from California. They have showed
over and over the crowds of homosexuals out in front of the temple. The signs
they placed and the things they wrote on the fence post. That hasn't been a
great secret from the country. I don't know how you miss that. Again, they
make this a gay thing, when really it is about marriage. It is about leaders of
our church not being forced to marry gay couples and about our children being
taught in school that all of that is normal. We don't believe that it is and
would like to have some say in what our children are taught along those lines.
I'm not telling them that they cannot choose to be together. They can choose
that, but don't use marriage to define your feelings for each other. Marriage
is a religious thing. It is important to those that are religious. Being God
fearing, marriage is between a man and a women. All the way back to the Garden
of Eden. One man, one women. Period
To Anonymous---- you are absolutely correct. Our ward has so much back biting
going on now that it is almost not worth going to church any longer. Member
against members nowadays and very sad indeed.
The militant mormon movement has lost credibility with itself and also within
it's ward. We are split and some are leaving. I am sad over this. Some people
need to just settle down. This is hurting the Church.
Re SoCalThey do the same filthy finger gestures here in Utah. The gays I
know are obscene with NO CLASS! Me and my spouse have watched a couple who live
in some duplexes near us, who come into our neighborhood park every night and
smooch right where our kids play.
The hard core gay movement has lost so much credibility. As someone who spent
many hours holding Yes on 8 signs on corners in Southern California in the
months leading up to the election, I can tell you first had that these guys/gals
would have everyone that differs with them sent to the gas chamber. As they
would drive by in the BMWs flipping you off and screaming profanity (always
starting with the letter "f"), the message in their eyes was "how dare you
disagree with me!" A really, really scary bunch.
Re: MarvinYou are one CONTENTIOUS person.
Because gays have a different set of values than my own I will immediately take
the following actions:1. I will not patronize any business owned by
a gay person. 2. I will protest the gay pride parade. 3. I will
protest at their place of worship -- oh, I forgot they do not worship. 4.
I will not visit any place which maintains a high gay population like SF, SD,
NY, etc Guess what gays -- there are a lot more of us than you.
What the?May i ask you what kind of word is thatw? Hummm? you better
practice what you preach friend, and do a spell check as well. You are a very
funny person. Try this also after your sentences '?'I'm happy that
you finely learned how to spell Christian. Laughing Christian has been a
excellent teacher for you.
Me luvs some persecution. It is what makes the cult what it is. Bring it on and
bring it in full force.
sorry no it for if-- I don't know where you are reaching for that one. we are to
seperate posters and of course in the body of the note Christian was with a
capital 'C'. In reponding your post name, well thatw would NOT need to be
capitalized. Once again not very Christian.
News like this lets me know the church is doing its job. We have to defend
what's right in this world, cuz no one else will. Let the persecutions come!
Curious, members of the LDS church are being castigated for being sheep and
following the counsels of the church leaders, and being controlled by them, and
yet, the gay community continually uses the same arguments in every forum of
public discourse that have been propogated by their self appointed leaders. Hypocrisy is always entertaining. I will take a leader that I believe was
called by revelation over a self appointed leader any day.
Re 9:35 9:45 HA HA! I misspelled that on purpose just to see if you
were somewhat coherent? Although I'm still not convinced that you are, because
you misspelled IF and used IT instead. I'm still laughing my head off! SO PLEASE
STOP IT! Perhaps you better worry about your own spelling mistakes because you
have too many of them. However, CHRISTIAN is a very big one. Please tell me how
you would know what a Christian is if you cannot even spell the word? Oh yeah,
Christian is spelled with a CAPITAL "C" :O+
Re: "@9:33 P.M,""It the right to protest is actually a well
established part of our laws."The right to petition the government
for a redress of grievances is a well established part of our law. There is no
consensus on the right to protest other voters, their families or organizations
they belong to."I love how you keep attacking me yet some how never
manage provide the proof to support your claims."And I love how you
keep making this claim even though you know that we only have 200 words and
can't post links. Google my post (I did it) and you will get all the result you
need."You cannot form one coherent thought or provide evidence for
even one of your claims yet you call me stupid.You are the one who
is being incoherent and making the same claim even though it relies on the
fallacy of appealing to authority."So rather then waist any more
time exchanging pointless insults I am really going to step away from engaging
you further and bid you goodnight."Do you always have to last word
and one up everyone. This attitude is the reason you agree with tyrants.
"Antis, Exmo's and axed have no business posting here."...I'm none
of the above, but if there were none of these, it wouldn't be half as
interesting or infuriating. I get pretty angry sometimes reading through these
kinds of things, but I also always have such a great time laughing at the
completely ignorant imbeciles that come here.
so basically you and those you agree with should be the only ones allowed to say
nasty things on these forums without anyone challenging your opinions, does that
about sum it up?
It is arent or are not, it is not are't. Make sure you have spell check on
before you attack another for spelling. You may be a BYU alum but that is no
excuse. BTW, your comments were not Christian by any means
It the right to protest is actually a well established part of our laws. I love
how you keep attacking me yet some how never manage provide the proof to support
your claims. You cannot form one coherent thought or provide evidence for even
one of your claims yet you call me stupid. I think it is pretty obvious to
anyone reading this exchange that you are not playing with a full deck. So
rather then waist any more time exchanging pointless insults I am really going
to step away from engaging you further and bid you goodnight.
If antis don't have anything nice to say well keep it to yourself. Antis, Exmo's
and axed have no business posting here. Please deseret news get some better
policies to keep these folks out.
oh you little rascal you got me, are you always this childish?
To: "@8:16 pm,"...don't you understand?"What part of the
protesters right to free speech do you not understand? you obviously supported
the people you claim are now being protested against right to free speech."I supported their right to speak out on the issues and to vote in an
election. That's what real freedom of speech is about. It isn't "freedom of
speech" to protest a private individual or organization for choosing to
participate in the public arena or to harass businesses, their employees or
customers. What part of this don't you understand?"...if customers
decide to stay away from or leave a business because of the protesters it might
just be that they agreed with them, I know hard to imagine right?"I
suspect that it had to do with being called names for eating at the restaurant
and the fact that over 200 people were making noise and not allowing them to eat
in peace. The more you post the more convinced I am that you are
just an arrogant voter who has allowed a right to vote to go to your head. I'm
not going to kiss your behind like candidates who want your vote do.
and your point, I dont recall claiming they did.
@8:16 pm,"show me the evidence that any of these things you keep
claiming actually happened we have been asking all day for any proof of these
claims."First, I don't have to show you anything but to get you to
shut up because you are to stupid to enter a few key words from my posts into
Google I will waste my time humoring a retard.Marjorie
Christoffersen, a manager at the El Coyote Mexican Cafe in Los Angeles donated
$100 to Yes on 8. So to punish this woman gay activists urged that a protest of
El Coyote be held. The protest was held and finally the restaurant's employees
chose to make a $500 donation to end the protest because a server called in
because they were worried and customers were called vulgarities as they left.
The restaurant took a loss of $50 because of a unhappy table and a birthday
party was ruined. You cannot tell me that as a customer celebrating a birthday
that you would be okay with it."I am done engaging your bazaar
thought processes,"I thought you wanted me to SHOW you evidence. Now
you are done. That's bizarre (not bazaar).
Re: 9:03 @sinner....and yes you are!Ahuh-ahuh! you can't spell
Christian. That must mean that you are't one...ahuh-ahuh-ahuh!Christen is my aunts name...aaahuh-aaahuh-aaahuh-huh!
"your right those mormons really need to get back to being true christens."I suppose the Catholics do too? And every other religion standing up for
(and having the complete and total right to do so) proposition 8?
It would be curious to know how the pro Prop 8 Crowd would have reacted if they
had won, and there were protests because of it. Oh wait, there would not have
been protests. If you are protesting a legtitimate election, (especially the
second time around) it is thug politics. Nothing less.
Like Mom use to tell us....if you don't have anything nice to say....don't say
it at all! Thank you!
"As far as the restaurant and the bridal store even if these things did happen I
still see no evidence that the protesters actually did break any laws."Nobody broke any laws voting either. In fact they exercised their right to do
who is being a bully is certainly a matter of opinion. so who are you talking
too? pro prop 8 or anti prop 8 supporters. I think there is enough bulling from
both sides to go around at this point.
You can rap alot of nice words around hate and present it as doctrine but in the
end hate is hate. Yhe LDS church is very versed in this,
"re:opinion," I was responding to "the facts" and their attempt to pass off
empty rhetoric as fact (illustrating a point), I do believe most Mormon (like
most people) are good decent people and I am more then happy to stay out of you
life if you stay out of mine.
Brother and sisters we are called to defend ourselves on these blogs. Stand up
for yourselves and defend the right.CHOOSE THE RIGHT and do not let
these bullies effect our faith.
Jabba wrote: "Why do mormons preach so much hate in the name of religion and
democracy?"Here is what Mormons actually preach: "Marriage between
man and woman is essential to God's eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth
within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who
honor marital vows with complete fidelity."If you call that hate
speech then you must have a very different meaning of the word hate.
your right those mormons really need to get back to being true christens.
Mormons are a fun bunch. If only you had one ounce of truth in doctrine, well
maybe you would have an easier time. Good luck on the the works of ole' Joe but
I think it has got about as far as it will go. Look to thr father and son and
not to joseph smith and perhaps one day you will be christian.
just because people believe being Mormon is ok, does it make pedophiles ok what
about toasters marring hot pads?? I understand they believe god made them this
way as well. This really does just get more and more fun... I see why you all love it so much.
Perversion is perversion no matter how you try to justify it.
your arguments keep getting stranger and stranger and less and less based in
reality. show me the evidence that any of these things you keep claiming
actually happened we have been asking all day for any proof of these claims. As
far as the restaurant and the bridal store even if these things did happen I
still see no evidence that the protesters actually did break any laws. if
customers decide to stay away from or leave a business because of the protesters
it might just be that they agreed with them, I know hard to imagine right? What
part of the protesters right to free speech do you not understand? you obviously
supported the people you claim are now being protested against right to free
speech. I am done engaging your bazaar thought processes,
Has anyone ever dealt with a rabid mormon missionary. Enough said there! The
mormon tact is no better than the gays.These are two peas of the
same pod. They are just to alike and i think this is the root of the issue. Boy you each need to get outside of your culture.
James Aultman,"Wow, nothing like miltant mormon with hate in hand
and a mission on there mind."You fail to mention that that mission
is to protect our right to worship, live and work in peace and not to be
harassed because we chose to participate in a free election."What a
buch you all are. It is actually quite comical but concerning nevertheless. The
rabidness in the mormon community is, well a little disturbing."You
try showing up to the Temple to worship only to find out that it had to be
closed because there is a protest. You try calling in to work because you are to
afraid to go in because there is a protest going on. You try showing up to your
business and reading signs that attack your family and you by name just because
you voted. You call this rabidness and I call it loving my family enough to not
tolerate a bunch of idiots putting them through such garbage. I don't know who
you and your mommy and daddy think you are? But you were a reject as a child, in
High School, in college and will be when you become Senator.
Just because people believe being gay or lesbian is ok, does this make
pedophiles ok??? I understand they believe God made them this way as well.
Yes, terrorists,"Anyone that has dealt with gay activists knows that
as soon as you voice objections to their lifestyle and ugly activism they start
issuing anonymous death threats."It's not always anonymous as was
the case with the group of Christians who had gathered in the Castro District of
San Fransisco to sing hymns only to have to be escorted to safety by police. The
gay mob were shouting "die, die, die" and "you [expletive] pigs." Then
they were threatening that they would "follow them all the way home" and told
them never to come back because it was THEIR neighborhood. They didn't just own
property or rent there but the neighborhood belonged to them."The
gays call your home phone and tell you that your son or daughter is going to be
slaughtered unless you stop campaigning against them. You think I'm making this
up?"No, I don't think you are making it up because they have made
public death threats, vandalized property and harassed voters for daring to vote
and donate. We must never be intimidated. They don't want civil discussion. They
want to punish and intimidate anyone who disagrees with them.
I am sitting in a Hotel room in a country where this type of discussion might
very well lead to death. In this country a person can be arrested for speaking
against it's President or even the Police. If that happens, a person will lose
all his belongings and be cast out by his family.This city has over
22 million people kept under control my intimidation and fear. Everyone I talk
to comments how their dream is to come to the US.Knowing I am a
Christian does not concern them. Whenever I travel in this part of the world, I
am shown respect for my religious beliefs as long as I show respect for
theirs.For the first time, I have seen the type of hatred I thought
I would not see in the US. The effort to organize hatred is one a path that
will lead only to more hatred.Gays in this country are simply put to
death. End of storey. The appeals process does not exist.There are
far more issues at stake in this Prop 8 issue. Free speech, Religion, and
employment are all at risk.
Re: "to: Protesters are Terrorists,""Is that a joke?"No
it isn't a joke and if you can't see that then you are the scum of the earth. I
don't have to prove to you that I'm intimidated by your protests. All I need to
do is know how I feel."You think some people holding signs and
picketing outside the LDS temple, or boycotting business is the same as suicide
bombers who fly planes into buildings? The same as someone who straps explosives
to a kid and sends them into a public place? I think you are being a tad
dramatic here."Did I say that or are you just going to be a jerk and
twist what I say to mock it because you have fallen in love with your right to
vote and protest. You have got to be joking but you aren't. I suspect that you
really believe that and that is why there are idiots in Congress and in
government.If not voting is the price of not having my children read
these signs than I will not vote. You win. Thank you so much for showing your
subjects that you are right.
I think after reading several of the entries here, I am more concerned that the
English language is being slaughtered so badly that some of you don't make any
sense - no matter what your 'leanings' may be. And after careful consideration,
it has also occurred to me that truth is what is suffering most. I think many
of you have decided what you WANT to believe, not what is actual truth. AND
that if the truth was certified, notarized and placed in front of you, you'd
still cry, "cheat, liar, let's get even." Remember that when you get in the
trough with a pig, you will both be dirty but only the pig will enjoy it.
It will be interesting to see if this "boycott" of all things Mormon and Utah is
going to really be effective or not.I'm not dismissing it or down
playing it, but at the same time, I wonder if it has any legs.I work
at a Marriott Hotel here in Salt Lake, and so far, business has been just as
good now as it was before Election Day. I know of a number of people who are
already planning to attend the Sundance Film Fesitval, and as far as I can tell,
I have yet to see a sudden drop off in attendence at Utah Jazz games or U of U
and BYU sporting events. I'll be VERY interested to see where this
Mormon/Utah boycott will be in six months, nine months or 18 months from now.
To "@washcomom,"...can protest at your home."Protesting
does not equal mobs and voicing our opinion does not suppress your speech as
evidenced by the hundreds of pro prop 8 post on these threads lately, but the
use of rhetoric calling those that appose your views mobs and terrorist using
violence and intimidation as a way to make them seem less then is a little less
then civil.If you believe that protesting outside of a persons place
of employment, business, place of worship or home isn't terrorism you are
deluding yourself. The employees of one restaurant in California raised over
$500 to bribe protesters to leave because their customers were leaving and a
birthday party was ruined and the restaurant had to pay for a $50 meal. All
because ONE, not two or more, manager donated $100 to Yes on 8.Others have resigned their positions to protect their organizations from
protesters and businesses in Utah and elsewhere have been boycotted because
their employees donated to Yes on 8. One owner of a Bridal Dress shop had her
business protested even though she actually opposed Proposition 8. All because
one of her employees donated in favor of it.
I am LDS and I don't share any details of my religious life with anyone at work
unless someone asks me a question (I live outside of Utah). I don't even like
green jello.You stay out of my life and I'll stay out of yours.
re: Pot vs. Kettle | 6:23 p.m.I was wondering when someone was going to
bring up Mountain Meadow; a single incident of violence in 150 years that Mormon
critics always seem to forget was preceded by the murder, extermination and
relocation of the Mormon population. I guess following that logic; since there
are violent episodes in gay history - then labeling all gays as inherantly
violnet is perfectly acceptable. NOT BTW I am homosexual and embarrassed by
those claiming to speak for me.
Here I sit on a Saturday night quietly listening to good Christmas carols and
think of the wisdom in sending a child to the world to help mankind eventually
find its way. I love Jesus Christ and his overwhelming self-sacrifice on mine
and everyone else on earth's behalf. I know he even loves those of us who sin
and are troubled or burdened with feelings of uncertainty and doubt about these
issues concerning marriage.There is but one source of truth and peace. May
I suggest to those who are debating so harshly that we take a break tomorrow and
figure out where that source of truth is and how to go forward peacefully and
The gays have a blacklist of Mormon business people who supported Prop 8?
Dude!! FREE ADVERTISING!!! Now gays, this is precedent setting. Now ALL
businesses will demand free advertising. I must go now - looking for a good
dentist. Hmmm... gayblacklist....
I work with many LDS people and I like them all. They are normal in many ways.
But I don't want to hear about their religous lives and green jello. No law can
change my feelings that this kind of stuff is just plain weird.Hey
this empty rhetoric thing just gets more fun all the time.
Funny how the only people who are closed minded and set in their ways are the
religious right. Everyone else is really open minded to new ideas. As long as
they are new ideas that they happen to agree with.The hypocrisy from
the left is sickening.
Reading the past few comments, it's obvious that the left is getting more
desperate.Why don't the gay rights people just admit this has
nothing to do with marriage at all? End the charade.The "civil
right" they seek is to be regarded as normal by all others. They want this to
be legislated and forced on everyone. That's why there is such a great amount
of push back - not just from Mormons, but from a large majority of Americans -
blacks, hispanics, Jews, Catholics, Baptists, etc, etc.I work with
many gay people and I like them all. They are normal in many ways. But I don't
want to hear about their love lives and men kissing men, etc. No law can change
my feelings that this kind of stuff is just plain weird.
It is interesting that Mormons say what happens in their religion is private no
ones business, but they sure love rubbing everyones nose in their religious
beliefs. They love to push their beliefs into everything the can.THEY THINK DON'T BOTHER ME WITH THE FACTS, MY BELEIFS ARE RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG,
MY MIND IS MADE UPHEY THIS EMPTY RHETORIC AND TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS
TO MAKE WHAT YOU SAY LOOK MORE IMPRESSIVE IS KIND OF FUN. LETS DO THIS MORE FACT
OF THE MATTER I THINK ITS HELPING.
Obviously a lot of people on your side of the argument think so using words like
terrorist, mobs, and evil knowing@6;53 p.m. and the person re:knowing was
responding to) to describe gay activist, but your post is a great example of
"And, when did you lose your civil rights? Oh thats right, you didn't."Ever heard of a place called Missouri? Oh, about 1835-1840; you know, that
time period? Where Mormons were driven off their land, killed, and had an
extermination order signed against them by the Governor?Ever heard
of Nauvoo? About 1845? Where Mormons were again forced from their homes and
had to lose their property or give up their lives? All because of their
religious beliefs?Every heard of Johnson's Army? You know, those
soldiers that were sent to invade and occupy the territory of Utah? All
because...I don't know why. Just because Mormons believed a little differently
than most, maybe?And which "civil right" did Mormons deprive
homosexuals of exactly? Hmm? I understand that only about 2% or so of the
population of California is Mormon, yet over 50% of the voters chose "yes" on
Proposition 8. How is this the Mormon's fault.If you are going to
open your trap and criticize a religion, how about learning some history first.
Several times throughout history the Mormon people have been deprived of their
rights. Yet you get upset when Californians deprive nobody and blame the
Mormons and gays have too much in common to ever get along. Both are insecure
and unsure of where they are or need to be. This may be at the root of the
problem. This is the ultimate grudge match of the two little step children of
america. No one wants to be in last place and this is what these to are playing
for. Very sad actually but it is what it is.
The LDS church and most of its people are NOT evil.I'm not sure how
people like you honestly think you're going to win anyone over. Do you really
believe that name-calling and bashing people is going to change hearts and
I agree. Be aware of the evil coming. The LDS church and its people are coming
and we must be aware of this evil.
Just because the LDS Church bought an ad in the NY Times doesn't make it be
valid. I personally have cancelled my subscription and let them know how
terribly insensitive it was of them to publish an ad that further victimizes the
minority group who lost their civil rights and that if I wanted to read
religious propaganda I would be subscribing to Ensign or The Watchtower written
by the Jehovas Witness's.I don't know of any violence against the
LDS church for it's role in proposition 8 other than their revealed for the
prejudice religious fanatics that they are and their trying to change subject by
mailing white powder to themselves. Ya your the victims, yeah right. And, when
did you lose your civil rights? Oh thats right, you didn't.Give me
a break. Nobody is going to believe your little store bought ad.
Melissa Ethridge has an awesome, powerful voice. She has a great talent and uses
it to full extent to tout her lifestyle. Recently her song about war and "bring
my baby back to me" has me thinking. What of the young people who are
influenced into experimenting with homosexuality by the gay community? If a
person dies in war it is tragic but there is still hope of an eternal reunion.
But if a child is lost through immorality can he/she ever be given back? How
much greater the tragedy. One can argue this about a billion different ways but
which is the greater loss? And those of the media of all types who feel it
necessary to put filth into entertainment targeting children specifically...to
what purpose...what master do they serve? Do we have to play nice with Satan
too? The battle is already won. Satan has lost and his goal now is to destroy
as many of God's children as possible. Stand up and be counted. I'm proud of
those who already have.
"People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called
gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of
God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be
difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at
various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go
forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of
chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the
discipline of the Church, just as others are."We want to help these
people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them
with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral
activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex
marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious
and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the
rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71)
Brothers and Sisters,Get ready for a a bad time to come. Evil is
trying to shut out those trying to do God's Will. Just do what you know is
right. Forget what "the State" and "the Politically Correct" think is right. It
Before Election Day, Prop 8 opponents said that churches who choose not to
perform same-sex marriages will not lose their tax-exempt status. After Election Day, Prop 8 opponents are now DEMANDING that all churches who
choose not to perform same-sex marriage MUST lose their tax-exempt status.Before Election Day, Prop 8 opponents said they would not single out
churches that supported Prop 8. After Election Day, Prop 8 opponents
have done nothing EXCEPT single out churches that supported Prop 8.So whose being the hypocrite now?
Anyone that has dealt with gay activists knows that as soon as you voice
objections to their lifestyle and ugly activism they start issuing anonymous
death threats. The gays call your home phone and tell you that your
son or daughter is going to be slaughtered unless you stop campaigning against
them. You think I'm making this up?I don't believe they are disposed
to follow through with such threats, but threats like the fake anthrax and
mobocracy are not new.
There are those who would have us believe in the validity of what they choose to
call same-sex marriage. Our hearts reach out to those who struggle with feelings
of affinity for the same gender. We remember you before the Lord, we sympathize
with you, we regard you as our brothers and our sisters. However, we cannot
condone immoral practices on your part any more than we can condone immoral
practices on the part of others. ("Stand Strong against the Wiles of the World,"
Ensign, November 1995, p. 99.)Does not sound like H8TE talk to me.
It is ADAM and EVE not adam and steve. When will the gays get over this. Fight
all you want like barking little fufu dogs but THE CARAVAN IS MARCHING ON. You
lost folks; giv it up!
Many (most) Christian churches supported Prop 8, so your leaving the church
probably had little/nothing to do with gay marriage.Anyone who
thinks their threat of leaving the church will change the church's (or God's)
stance on homosexuality is sadly mistaken.Please read the 15
passages in the OT and NT condemning homosexuality - I can't see how any
Christian church can take any other position.
To Anonymous::::Please refer to the above Jack & Sue, SLC comment. It
pretty well sums everything up.
The beauty of the LDS church's involvement in this is that it drove the point
home that LDS members will do anything they are told. There is no chance of an
LDS president anytime soon.
Mormons against Prop 8 are still alive and well. We will stand for you and
continue your good work in bringing equality. My ward was split and
there are still tensions over this issue. I think this issue will be here for
some time. I support the intent of opposing H8 and many upon many members do as
well. The people who post hate on this comment post do not represent the real
Thanks for your prayers for my soul, Kaylee, but your assumptions about Mormons
being trapped in a little box are naive and stereotypical.I am a
college professor and businessperson with degrees from some of the top
universities and I've lived in various countries and states since I left Utah
many years ago.The more I live and learn, the more convinced I am
that the LDS way of life is the most complete and satisfying. There are those
who find its teachings too restrictive - I'm not sure why since the commandments
are the same in most judeo-christian religions. Those who have a problem with
keeping these standards are usually the first to cite obscure, biased writings
by excommunicated members and enemies of the church to justify their decision to
leave the church.No doubt these old writings and accounts are
authentic. But lies and half-truths written for defamation 150 years ago are
still lies and half-truths. They don't get "more true" with time.
Is that a joke? You think some people holding signs and picketing outside the
LDS temple, or boycotting business is the same as suicide bombers who fly planes
into buildings? The same as someone who straps explosives to a kid and sends
them into a public place? I think you are being a tad dramatic here.
how about you come to my house and explain to my child why her loving uncle and
his partner are being subjected to day after day of the nasty rhetoric coming
from people like you simply because they love each other and their children.
Your right you do not have to explain why I offend you and you will never
understand the hurt your words cause my child everyday.
I don't have to read all of these comments to recognize that the LDS church is
being bombarded by bigots. Freedom of speech means nothing to these
anti-everything but me type of people. These anarchists, because that is
what they really are, are just stuck on the fact that they are society's real
losers in more ways than one. Not only do they get to lose in court they also
lose in the hospital and in bed. These people want not only their "rights" they
also want to remove the rights of others. You want a real live example
of how these people behave and what they want then you need to visit
Provincetown, Massachusetts. There you will find that the freaks have taken
over. Normal couples are harassed and called names. Discrimination is rampant
and man and wife are treated like dirt. THIS IS REALITY. Any other description
of this lifestyle is simply lying. THIS IS WAR! There is no such thing as live
and let live.
Do we really need to give the LDS members a history lesson on what they did when
their right to marriage was taken away? The Mountain Meadows Masacre comes to
mind. Even if it was not directed by the leaders of the church, it was still
performed by members of the church.
Perhaps not an embarrassment to the LDS church as this behavior is on par. As for as Christianity, well it is a little more then embarrassing. It
is not the intent but the rabid and cultish method that is used; it is certainly
not Christ-like. I feel bad for what all mormons have to endure in their sad and
I have to say watching the LDS church's stance on Prop 8 gave me the strength go
to my bishop, asked to be released and leave the LDS church. I think the members
of the church are showing their true colors with everything having to do with
this.I don't want to be affiliated with an organization that gets
upset because their right to define their marriage was taken away (polygamy),
only to do the same to others, then get upset when people are outraged. If the
LDS church wants to be considered a main stream Christian religion, they need to
stop whining. I haven't heard any of the Catholics being boycotted because of
their donations claiming persecution, same with other Christian churchs.
From the Ad: "we do agree on this that we have to stand shoulder to shoulder
with each other to protect our right to be able to express our opinion in the
public square. So whose voice is this? Civil rights advocates, gay protesters,
evangelical leaders, LDS hierarchy, Fred Phelps? Seems like it applies to all.
Yes, if you stand up to free speech, you have to stand up for protests directed
against the LDS political entanglement. So you see, this ad
supports both sides: indignant press releases, boycotts, protester signs. So nice that LDS leaders thanked the B group for supporting peaceful
Some of us have been part of an internal movement to channel the hurt people
within the LGBT community feel in to constructive non violent action, however,
I am still waiting for evidence of this wide spread "violence and intimidation
by mobs and terrorist people are talking about on this thread. Protesting does
not equal mobs and voicing our opinion does not suppress your speech as
evidenced by the hundreds of pro prop 8 post on these threads lately, but the
use of rhetoric calling those that appose your views mobs and terrorist using
violence and intimidation as a way to make them seem less then is a little less
washcomom,"If there are so many of the GLBT community that is NOT
for the violence or intimidation shown to the LDS community, why don't you get
together and show such a demonstration to those of your own belief and
standards?"If they can't see the inherent threat to a free and
robust democracy that protests targeting a specific group or individual because
of their participation in free elections poses then something is wrong with
them. America is a constitutional republic and one of the reasons we have secret
ballots is because of just this kind of situation yet the law requires that
those who donate to a ballot proposition list their names, profession and home
towns. This makes it easier for people to target them because of their
participation and that is wrong."It is frustrating to see the
sideline and armchair tactics of those that will not stand for their own beliefs
and wants, yet condemn those that do. You can't waffle on the fence. Eventually
you have to put your foot down over the line."Those who refuse to
condemn anyone who participate in protests at LDS Templs have issues. A non-commitment is no commitment.
Ready when you are, lefties.
Why is it that gays think that they need special 'so called' rights anyway. The
Bible says that "just like homosexual relations" so is adultry a sin and an
abomination before god. I don't see adulterers, or polygamists being touted as
being a "special minority group" who deserves special rights.Marriage has
always been and should always be between a 'Man' and a 'Woman'. Period. Anything
other than that will cuase a deterioration of the entire country.
The breakdown in the political process is due to lies of widespread anti gay
propaganda paid for my Mormons in large part. [Read Affirmation website for
list of lies debunked.] Both houses of the California legislature passed a
gender neutral marriage bill TWICE over three years! The CA Supreme Court
essentially mandated the same outcome this year. All it took was one
now-acknowledge mistake by ONE MAN, the Governator. So much for the democratic
process. Now the religious Reich has prevented the Governor and both houses of
the legislature from doing what they now know is right, leaving it to the least
democratic branch, the judiciary, to bail us out from the tyranny of the LDS
sheeple. Bravo, though, on your excellent propaganda campaign of lies.
Unfortunately, now little Susie's classmates all have been taught about gay
marriage [it's THE topic in middle schools here]....thanks to you.
something does not add up,"People come on these threads day after
day, week after week, month after month run newspaper ads saying all saying that
their free speech is being oppressed by those pesky gay right activist, some
thing does not ad up."The argument against the protesters isn't that
our freedom of speech is being infringed. We are instead saying that we are
being targeted for punishment for our decision to speak our minds, and
participate in our free elections. We cannot worship in peace and without
intimidation and that is the issue."How could your free speech be
oppressed yet we continue to see your opinions day after day, week after week
and month after month?"How about this? I come to your house and
protest all night long because of your post here? How you would feel or how
would your child feel if his mother brings him to your business only to read a
sign that labels his family homophobes and he recognizes that the man holding
the sign is the uncle of a kid in his school.You just won't ever get
it. I don't have to explain why you offend me.
Janica Morrison,I'm not the Church and I will comment as I see fit
and won't be taking direction from you. Life is a contest and politics is as
well. One side wins and the other loses. You may advocate good sportsmanship but
I doubt that the fans of the a winning sports team would be as likely to receive
the fans of the other team if they were to protest outside of their businesses
after they lost.Do you see how quickly the sport would crumble into
a dust heap and no one would play it anymore. This isn't possible when it comes
to government so we must recognize that what is done at the ballot must stay at
the ballot. You apologize to others by saying "I am sorry to those
who are rightfully offended. These people are not the LDS Church." Why don't you
apologize to me because I'm offended but you don't care because you are a fake.
Other, less strong members of the Church may have their testimony weakened by
your comments but I don't. As for how we comment? The question you should ask is
"where do you get off making your rude comments."
It is interesting to us that the same argument being used by gays & lesbians,
i.e., "God made me this way, and God doesn't make mistakes" is the exact same
argument now being used by pedophiles. Where will this road take us in the next
10 to 15 years? California Mormons, YOU ROCK!!!
Awesome. Lets put the gays in their place and close this once and for all. Wrong
is wrong and you lost. You need to give it up. Evil will not reign. Adam and
Steve must go.
If there are so many of the GLBT community that is NOT for the violence or
intimidation shown to the LDS community, why don't you get together and show
such a demonstration to those of your own belief and standards? It
is frustrating to see the sideline and armchair tactics of those that will not
stand for their own beliefs and wants, yet condemn those that do. You can't
waffle on the fence. Eventually you have to put your foot down over the line.
A non-commitment is no commitment.
embarrassment:"You are all an embarrassment to the LDS church and
Christianity."Are the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints an embarrassment to the LDS Church?
I am a proud member of the LDS Church but am amazed and set aside by many
comments of members. I knew there was a rift and many ward members expressed
concern but all I have to say is stunned after reading these comments. Where do
many members of the church get off in commenting like this or treating others
like this? My goodness some of you need to examine yourselves. These comment
boards are not a contest and you to not serve the church well when you comment
like this. This is not the church I grew up in. I am sorry to those who are
rightfully offended. These people are not the LDS church!
People come on these threads day after day, week after week, month after month
run newspaper ads saying all saying that their free speech is being oppressed by
those pesky gay right activist, some thing does not ad up. How could your free
speech be oppressed yet we continue to see your opinions day after day, week
after week and month after month?
Wow, nothing like miltant mormon with hate in hand and a mission on there mind.
What a buch you all are. It is actually quite comical but concerning
nevertheless. The rabidness in the mormon community is, well a little
you people are truly pathetic you have been asked twice for any proof that the
gay rights movement had anything to do with the letters or the vandalism and now
your claiming that there has been all this violence against LDS church members,
wheres the proof that it happened or that the people involved in the gay right
movement had anything to do with it? You are all an embarrassment to the LDS
church and Christianity
What it all boils down to is, the bible, the one book that all religions should
be in accordance with says straight out, that no man or women should bed down
with the same, and that even if we dont act apon it in the physical sense, if
you do it in your heart you have done it , so if we all believe, in the bible,
then there should be no such matters in existence, but hence, we are all human
and are easily influenced by the flesh, the greatest tool used by satan to
corrupt the plan of procreation, to give Gods children a body of flesh so they
may progress... So we all just need to control are human appetites for pleasure
and find out why we have these feelings. People we have brain problems, or
chemical inbalances if you like, the reasons are clear, they have done test on
cereal killers brains, and they all had the same chemical inbalance, their
frontal lob, which keeps us from carrying out such acts, did not function at all
if any, the act of homosexuality is a brain disfunction get medication peolple.
call National Alliance for the Mentally Ill
So the LDS church and this organizations way of calling for tolerance is by
painting all gay activist as terrorist and thugs? Interesting. why do I suspect
a less nobal motive?
What ever happened to the good old days, where free thinkers felt that they did
not need a piece of paper to define their love? It seems that just
like the above, Prop 8 is another attempt to devalue marriage, to suit the
desires of a particular group.
so they mention the letters sent and vandalism of the churches has it ever been
proven that either of these incidents had anything to do with the gay right
Let them persecute us all they want. We have lived through it for many years.
I hope that people will not give into the persecution though. They need to
understand that they need to stand up and vote for what they feel is right.
Even if there is persecution down the road. Letting a group of people shut us
up is wrong. I am speaking about ALL who voted for prop 8. Thank you for
standing together during this election. For working together. It goes to show
that even though we might not see eye to eye on religious belief, we can still
work together for the things that are right in this country.Thank
Knee biters are what the bunch of you are! Dogs bark but the caraven moves on.
You do not effect a thing.
As an ex-member I am always amazed at the hate that members of the church bring.
All they know is what they have been taught and have never looked at venturing
outside there little box which the prophet has put them in. Wow what a closed
society and once I left it opened my eyes. I feel very sorry for many of you and
I do pray on behalf of your souls.
brian,"last i checked people from every religion voted, oh did the
gays and lesbians get their feeling hurt!?!? oh boo hoo hoo hoo..."They are sore losers and feel they have the right to target those of us who
disagreed with them and chose to express our disagreement by donating to Yes on
8 and actually voting. Personally, I don't care if their feelings were hurt. We are the ones who kept it at the ballot like most civilized people do
instead of bringing it to their homes, places of business, employment and
worship. Their choice to make this personal will result in one of two things. We
will continue to tolerate it or they will push us beyond the point of amending
the Constitution to repealing it and writing a new one that they don't like and
by the way it is the majorities constitution. We are the ones who protect your
rights morons.If we cannot expect that what is done in the ballot
stays in the ballot then there is no use voting and we are free to show them
exactly what we do to those who think that they can harass us and our children.
Re: Ed H,"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the political
kitchen." Your "anything goes" mentality sounds an awful lot like another
political view from the early 40's. Think about what you're saying Ed."It has far more in common with a political view that exists today. That view
is expressed by al-Qaeda who has repeatedly stated that if American voters can't
handle the political heat then we should get out of the kitchen. Their
fundamental belief is based on the idea that if they intimidate Americans
because of how we voted then they will prevail because we will either vote as
they want or refuse to vote out of fear.That's exactly what these
protesters are intent on doing. They make it clear they are going to punish
every Mormon for participating in free elections and will continue to do so
until we stop voting and contributing to ballot issues. Their single goal is to
make sure that the only people voting next time are those who agree with them
because the rest of us will be too afraid that our homes, businesses, places of
employment and worship will be targeted by protesters. It's terrorism.
No hate taught in LDS,"To all those who claim that opponents of Prop
8, specifically the LDS or Mormon are people who preach hate because of their
belief that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, please reserve
your judgement and strong accusations. You only show your ignorance while making
these comments."If we hate them then why haven't we done to them
what they have have done to us which is protest outside of their businesses,
places of employment and places of worship? Every year there's a gay
pride parade in Salt Lake and not a single Mormon (let alone a large group) in
Salt Lake forces police to provide parade attendees an escort out of the
neighborhood for fear that they would be physically harmed. Not once have we
sought to drive them from our neighborhoods or prevent them from exercising
their constitutional right. When they come to our places of worship
to protest we don't go after them and say "We will follow them all the way
home." Instead, we simply shut down that place of worship and peacefully allow
them to throw a temper tantrum and stop us from worshiping peacefully.
U.S. citizens younger than 34 cannot be President of the United Stated. That is
applied equally to all, and does not violate the rights of those younger than
34.A woman and man can be married. That is applied equally to
all.A man or woman cannot marry multiple women or men. That is
applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of men or women.A man cannot marry a man. That is applied equally to all and does not violate
the rights of men.A woman cannot marry a woman. That is applied
equally to all and does not violate the rights of men.A parent
cannot marry their offspring. That is applied equally to all and does not
violate the rights of parents.A child cannnot marry a child. That is
applied equally to all and does not violate the rights of parents. Women cannot be drafted by the military. That is applied equally to all. If
same sex marriage is allowed, then gender is not a differentiating
characteristic in the eyes of the law, and a lawsuit that allows our nation's
daughters to be eligible for the next military draft is inevitable.
I'm a leftest living on the Left Coast. I never thought marriage was a piece of
paper. I stopped believing in my family's religion after I learn its founder
married 38 women, some as young as 14. A pedophile and adulterer can't be a
wayne,"I feel sorry for those homosexuals who are so furious over
prop. 8. They are obviously very frustrated about their way of life, so they
lash out at anything and anyone who doesn't agree with them."When
was the last time a group of homosexuals had to be escorted out of downtown Salt
Lake City by police in order to protect them from a mob assaulting them and
telling them that they had better not come back to the mobs neighborhood? That
is exactly what did happen to a group of Christians who had gathered in the
Castro District of San Fransisco to sing hymns. The mob shouted:"Die, die, die""Shame on you""Don't come back""All the way
home""We are going to follow them all the way home""Boo, boo,
boo""It's our neighborhood""You [expletive] pigs"Now if a group of heterosexuals did this to the gay pride parade every year
they would protest and shout about how their rights were violated. The threat to
follow them all the way home should have resulted in arrests but the police were
afraid of these people. I dare them to come to my home.
There is something wrong with the leaders of these activist groups, they are
accusing the LDS church of things they are actually doing, like threatening the
church members, being so stubborn and blind that they can no see beyond their
own greed and hunger for public pity and because they cannot get it, they use
the church as a escaping goats for their own mistakes. The people of California
decided to go for the ban, of which a very small percentage are LDS, and did it
by they own free will. Why these so-called leaders of the open minded groups are
so intolerant to somebody's else opinion. They want everybody else to be
tolerant to them but when these gay groups have to be tolerant, they attack.
Nice rule, THUGS.
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the political kitchen." Your "anything
goes" mentality sounds an awful lot like another political view from the early
40's. Think about what you're saying Ed.
Boundaries,"The LDS church hasn't stepped too far into the political
realm--it's the gay community that has pushed too far into the moral realm. If
there is a boundary that exists between politics and morality, that boundary was
pushed by the gays way too far into moral territory...the territory where
churches are compelled to get involved."The Church didn't do
anything that other tax-exempt gay advocacy organizations didn't do. They wanted
to force the majority to recognize and promote same-sex marriage and used
coercive means to do so. When the majority decided to stand up and make it clear
that they had enough these tyrants had the gall to target us for our
participation in free elections.What they didn't realize is that we
aren't easily intimidated. Churches had little choice but to get involved when
gay activists decided that 4 of their friends who serve on the California
Supreme Court were going to overturn the will of the people.What
they fail to understand is we will not sit back and do nothing as they seek to
force the majority to promote same-sex marriage. They can threaten and cry all
they want but we have had it.
To all those who claim that opponents of Prop 8, specifically the LDS or Mormon
are people who preach hate because of their belief that marriage should only be
between a man and a woman, please reserve your judgement and strong accusations.
You only show your ignorance while making these comments. The LDS
church teaches to love our neighbor as taught in the bible. Listen to our
general conference or attend any church meetind and tell me if you hear any
teachings on hate. Just because someone does not agree with your
view does not mean they hate as you accuse. If there are LDS people preaching
hate they will be judged just as everyone else will for their actions. You show
your true colors and mirror the accusations you make of hate.
Thanks for all those who support civil discussion and participation.Everyone needs to be treated with respect. We share a country, a homeland and
many things that bring us together - I believe - more than divide us.We will be stronger for this as we work together with mutual concern for all.
You are only slight off, but off none the less. Bob may not marry Bill, but
Jane may also not marry Ann. So equal rights are indeed shown. You may want to
read the Maryland Supreme Court decision on gay marriage for even more. You might also want to consider that marriage is not a right just as
driving is not a right. Imagine, if you will, a visually impaired person
demanding the right to drive. Instead, there are certain requirements for
driving just as there are certain requirements for marrying. It comes down to
children (Loving V. Virginia) "survival of the species," and Ca. Family code
301. Children born into marriages are assumed to be the children of the
husband per the courts. Children born outside marriage are not assumed to be
that of the male in the relationship with the court often requiring DNA tests to
prove paternity. As soon as a gay couple produces children without a third
party, I will gladly support gay marriage. Until then, civil unions are
appropriate and sufficient for legal protections including survivorship, end of
life decisions and etc.
Most of the people that voted Yes on Prop 8 are anti-mormon (like me) so why is
the mormon church really being targeted? Is it because the church is an easy
victim with people NOT liking the church so would not oppose such acts? I voted
no last time, if it is brought again I will join the mormons and note yes even
if I think their church cultish.
How the dogs howl. These groups lacked the will and money and so got the LDS
church to do the dirty work. Now they are crying foul, wrapping themselves in
the flag, and crying persecution.These are the same folks who consider the
LDS church a cult, heretical, and wicked to baptize their dead for them. If the
LDS church is anxious to get in bed with them, then the sheets are pulled back
and the bed is warm.We are talking about majority rule here. Let's have
segregation,(the majority did not vote to end that) let's keep the separation of
race in marriage, something the LDS church was for and don't tell me
differently, I was a missionary in the 50's, that's what we taught. Remember
all the changes in how blacks are treated didn't come by a majority vote but by
court action, as had many other laws now taken for granted.Same gender
civil marriage will come to California, whether the religious right wants it or
not. It is a matter of justice. I am now a proud Episcopalian and grateful
to be in a church that loves and supports ALL people.
Where is the law? The Mormons have been attacked, vandalized, threatened, etc.
and not one person has been arrested for these horrible acts? How can this be?
We all have the right to vote as we chose, this country is a land of laws &
freedoms - so why hasn't the California police officers protected the Mormons &
their churches? Why hasn't anyone gotten arrested, as I see it, those were NOT
"peaceful" protest. Burning the Bok of Mormon, spray painting the temple gates &
LDS churches -as far as I know these are BREAKING the law! So where are the
police officers to protect the Mormons?
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the political kitchen. You can't say
you do not get involved in politics and then get very involved. This gay
marriage issue is not a religious issue. It is an issue as to what the state
recognizes as a marriage. It has no consequence on how religions view marriage.
The LDS Church got involved in an issue it should have stayed out of, period.
One last thought. We no longer condemn the African American
community for their protests regarding their civil rights in the 60's. Who is
history going to prove wrong in this case??
last i checked people from every religion voted, oh did the gays and lesbians
get their feeling hurt!?!? oh boo hoo hoo hoo...
The LDS church hasn't stepped too far into the political realm--it's the gay
community that has pushed too far into the moral realm. If there is a boundary
that exists between politics and morality, that boundary was pushed by the gays
way too far into moral territory...the territory where churches are compelled to
get involved.David S.
Where has the decency of the people of this great nation gone? I think the
Founding Fathers may look upon us today with sadness and even disgust. The
wounds Christ endured on our behalf must sting a little harder and Heavenly
Father must have tear drops on his cheeks. While Heavenly Father and His
Son, Jesus the Christ, Our Savior, loves each and every one of us, they do
expect us to follow their commandments. The Scriptures are clear about this.
These commandments however, don't give us the right to go around condemning one
another for we are all sinners since we aren't perfect creatures. One of the
most important commandments that Christians have been given is to love our
neighbors as ourselves. That doesn't mean more than ourselves or less than
ourselves, but as ourselves. The epitome of the "Golden Rule." If this
violence and hatred amongst our own people (Americans of all types) does not
cease, we will suffer the curse of this land and lose it. If you think what ever
your current "oppression" is bad (trust me I personally know some of them are
unspeakable), just wait it will be 10 times worse.
THANK YOU BECKETT FUND, WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT.THE HOLLYWOOD CROWD HAVE NO MORALS AT ALL ANYWAY, SO WHY PEOPLE THINK THEY
WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT IS BEYOND ME. MOST OF THEM ARE LIBERALS ANYWAY AND THE
ONES WHO ARE NOT ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP BECAUSE THEY WOULD LOSE THEIR
I feel sorry for those homosexuals who are so furious over prop. 8. They are
obviously very frustrated about their way of life, so they lash out at anything
and anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Just out of curiosity....Has anyone heard one single word about all
thie physical and economic terrorism from Pres. Bush, any of our new national
leaders, or Sen. Feinstein, Gov. Schwarzenegger (who both caved to the same-sex
activists' agenda), Calif. Attorney General Jerry Brown (who wrote the biased,
prejudicial language of Prop. 8 as "eliminating" a "right"), or the mayor of
S.F., Gavin "Whether You Like It Or Not" Newsom? What about
prominent "No on 8" donors: Brad Pitt, Ellen DeGeneres, Steven Spielberg,
Barbara (Mrs. Steve) Young, Suze Ormond, Bruce Bastian, Ambassador James Hormel,
George Lucas, PG&E, Apple, & the Calif. Teachers' Association? Have any of them condemned the mob actions that shut temples, the white
powder, the vandalizing of Church buildings, the vile statements made about
Archbishop Niederauer and Catholic priests, or other anti-Mormon/anti-Catholic
gestures?I'm waiting patiently to hear from them. If you hear
anything, I'd like to know. If these people who fed & let loose the hounds of
hatefulness have done anything to call them back, I'd love to be able to give
Shall we see anyone from the gay community or their supporters advocating
terrorism? A gay Al Qaeda as it were? People who cannot win one way will resort
to violence to achieve their ends. Is homosexuality and lesbianism really a
peaceful philosophy or does it have a hidden edge which the present situation
will bring out?
Instereo,"I hear people of religion crying, because someone is
speaking up against their stand on an issue, saying their religious freedom is
being stepped on."If it was simply about speaking up about the
Church stance on Proposition 8 then no one would care but it isn't just about
speaking out but harassment in the form of protests outside of businesses owned
by Mormons and which employ Mormons. It is a"This argument is going
to go on for awhile because when it comes to basic rights, people are going to
speak up. When gays are finally given equal rights, they won't be saying
anything about their religious brothers and sisters and we'll find that our
society will work just fine."So the argument goes something like
this: When the majority finally caves and obeys the orders of the protesters
because they finally become worn out from the constant state of harassment that
they, their employees, employers and family have to endure then the protesters
will stop because they accomplished their goal.You asked how
speaking up can infringe on others? How about signs outside of your family owned
business which state "Purves family are homophobes."
What a marvelous, back-handed compliment the militant gays have given the Mormon
Church. It is by the Mormons alone that made the passage of Prop 8 possible.
There was no help from the community or other religious organizations that spent
money and time for Prop 8. Every one who voted for Prop 8 did so because the
Mormons told them too.What an awful, offensive insult the militant
gays have given to those that actually voted for Prop 8. They think that
African Americans, Hispanics and other groups dont have the intelligence or the
mental power to vote their conscience on issues that matter to their community
and society. They all get their marching orders from the Mormon Church.Get Real! If the Mormons really had that kind of power, then Mitt
Romney would be president and church membership in California and the country
would tripled in size during the past year. The people have spoken, so get over
it. It doesnt help your cause by using mob tactics on a group of people who
really cant take the credit for the passage of Prop 8.
To all members of the LDS Church,FOLLOW THE PROPHETS, AND ALL WILL
BE WELL. Thats all we need to do.
Has everyone forgotten the CHILDREN?! Every child deserves to have a mother and
a father who cares deeply about them. It's true that many kids don't have the
ideal family, but they can still grow up feeling secure and make sense of their
world. Taking away fundamental building blocks of society, is how you get
twisted minds and maladjusted kids. Those people who want to change defintion of
marriage to suit their own life style are not thinking of anyone but themselves.
Missionary tool. My neighbors and co-workers who are not LDS are asking me
about LDS Beliefs and we are all getting together to have Family Home Evenings
on Mondays, with the Missionaries joining us every other Mondays.
Really, The LDS church provide council to it's members they encourage it's
member to fight a sinful and immoral acts. It's up to members to follow or not.
Some do, some don't.As for thought control, it squarely rests with
the Gay and Lesbian community who trying to control our thoughts in accepting
their so call "lifestyle." As for proof, there an individual in California, who
happens to work on the california school board who is currently hunting down
good up standing citizens. This person is trying to force employers to terminate
those who voted for and donated to Yes on Prop 8. This is a free country, and we
are free to choose, and vote how we want to.So what do we call this
thought control? I call it the "Gay MacCarthism."So the question is:
Who is forcing fear into thought control here? NOT the LDS Church.These Gays and Lesbians live on a one side street and will scream and throw
tantrums until they get their way. We got news for them, the majority of
Americans have voted your thought control out. In California it was voted out
twice.Be happy with your civil unions.
What has happened to the free speech. I do not agree with same sex
relationships and the constitution says I have the democratic right to this and
to speak my opinion and vote for it as do all people. This is one of the
blessings of living in a free land. The Human Rights People seem to forget that
part. As an LDS person I do follow the teachings of Christ in the Bible. As I
have said I do not agree with same sex unions but I would fight to the death for
thier freedom to have thier vote for what they believe in, this is not being a
bigiot. But if as in Democracy the majority vote against thier vote then they
should with dignity accept the decsion and make the best of it, like we all have
to do in such a case.Violence for any reason is wrong and the means
does not justify the end.
It's not "Gay Marriage." It's "Same-sex Marriage."A Gay Man can
marry a Gay Woman.
A few months ago, the New York Times wouldn't have allowed the ad.It
must of needed the money.
Speaking up is legal, acceptable and even encouraged. Threats and violence are
not. The NYT ad is signed by a body of people of varying backgrounds
and independent beliefs, representing the vast majority of the american
demographic. If a third party made up of our peers can see the injustice in how
the GLBT community has reacted, why can't you?A man marrying a man
is not a protected right. Its a behavior that has no claim on consitutional
principles. If a group decides they want to marry their St. Bernard dogs and
then demand equal rights under the constitution, would you support it?
Regardless of your sexual preference, the contitution was not meant to protect
your behavior. 52% of the residents of California evidently agree.
What rights have been denied the gays?Not the right to have immoral sexual
activity that is more than frowned upon by God.Not the right to live
together.Not the right to share property.Not the right to appear
publically together.The only thing they want is for society to say it is
alright, when it will never be alright. God forbids it and calling it marriage
is to perpetuate a lie. Governments cannot make it marriage. God makes it
marriage and the last society that approved Homosexuality was destroyed by God.
God does not change his mind so call it whatever you want but it will not be
For Polish Men to say that the LDS is singled out and does it to the Catholic
Church seems to defeat the purpose of this article.
As an active LDS member, I have no problem with the homosexual community
protesting peacefully for the changes they would like. That is their right -
just as it was my right to vote as I personally saw fit. But I do have a HUGH
problem with the breaking of laws which some are doing and threatning and
scaring people and causing them to lose jobs when they have families to support.
I am sorry for the mistreatment that some homosexuals have had to go through -
but it was not by my hand so don't persucute me. They "Gay" agenda wants their
people to use the word "Hate" as often as they can to make the people seem
persecuted for people sitting on the fence to feel sorry for them. They know
that we don't hate them - it is just a ploy (read the gay agenda). I agree that
the law should step up on this stop it - also the state gov. should step up on
this also. Why should the gays stop if they feel like they have the backing of
the cops and gov???
Militant gay activists are making all homosexuals look very bad, but they are
also damaging the lives of those who disagree with them in very mean and
unAmerican ways. For example -- militant activists have been contacting the
employers of people who contributed to Prop8 (CA law requires donors to list
their place of employment) and threatening boycotts, pickets, and even violence
against the employer. The result is that a number of these people have been
fired for simply expressing a democratic position. The goal of these actions is
not just to punish those who supported Prop8 -- but to silence them now, and if
another election is held. Thus, when a another election is held, people should
list their second occupation, "consulting", as their employment to end the
impact of these new brownshirt tactics.
Your examples are very simple and trite, but what happens when -"Bill" wants to marry "Fluffy the lamb""Sally" wants to marry "Sam" (her
cousin)"Bill" wants to marry "Brittani" (age 15)"Bob" wants to marry
"Sally," "Jane," "Margaret," etc"Bill wants to marry "Bob" but just so Bob
doesn't have to go out and get a job and get his own benefits?And
how did marriage go from "just a piece of paper that means nothing" (left wing,
since 1960) to the most important civil right ever???
Elton John is happy with his civil union, he does not know why Gays have to
change the definition of marriage to be happy. The Mormon church if for equal
benefits for same sex partners. Why Gays have to demand Gay marriage when it
gives them no more protection than civil unions is strange. It should be
understandable if religion does not want to change the definition of marriage
that has stood for thousands of years. The Gay movement has vandalized churches
and sent possible anthrax to those in religion who appose their view point. Mob
violence and hate crimes against those who don't agree with you harkens back to
when Missouri made it legal to kill and exterminate Mormons in the 1930s, when
many were killed for their beliefs. In the Prop 8 case, religion has not said
lets kill Gays for their beliefs, they have just said we do not want to change
the definition of Marriage. Hate and bigotry against people of religion should
not exist in America in 2008. Since Obama is against Gay marriage, (just not a
constitutional amendment, should Obama also be victimized for his belief? His
Elton John homophobic?
This ad wouldn't have been posted if the mobs had not of attacked what is sacred
to the Mormons.It seems like a huge hissy fit of "I can't get what I
want so I will attack".It's not only the Mormons. I'm glad that
other religions have stuck by what they know is right.
I hear people of religion crying, because someone is speaking up against their
stand on an issue, saying their religious freedom is being stepped on. It amazes
me how narrow minded and how non-self reflective they are because just a month
ago with their religious freedom they were advocating not granting equal rights
to a large group of citizens. It's easy to cry foul when someone is
speaking up for themselves but it's hard to see how your speaking up can
infringe on another person. This argument is going to go on for
awhile because when it comes to basic rights, people are going to speak up. When
gays are finally given equal rights, they won't be saying anything about their
religious brothers and sisters and we'll find that our society will work just
fine. The constitution starts "We the People...." Historically it's
been interpreted to mean we the people except for...... As those "except for's)
have been given their rights, the constitution has lived up to ideal potential.
The sooner all people have the rights promised, the sooner we'll live in the
ideal society the constitution promises.
And the hits just keep a coming for the mormons. no matter how many times you
point the finger at the 'blacks' or the catholics who voted with you. You are
still to blame. haha, truth hurts doesn't it? mormon church 10 steps forward,
50 steps backwards. you'll get there one day.btw what kinda schools
are in utah? don't you know we are a "democratic republic" not a "democracy"??
listening to too much boosh and hatch i suppose.
Anonymous wrote, "...Seeking to redefine the marriage based on ones personal
PREFERENCE (be they born with it or be it acquired) is NOT a CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE.
No way."No need to "redefine" anything.Not sure how you
define "civil rights issue", but when one person is denied a right available to
others, then, yes, it is indeed a civil rights issue.When "Bob"
could not marry "Jane" while "Bill" could because "Bob" was white and Jane and
Bill were black, that was a civil rights issue.When "Bob" could not
marry "Bill", while "Jane" could, that is equally civil rights issue.Now, you may think it the most ludicrous thing in the world for "Bob" and
"Bill" to want to marry, but many thought it equally absurd, for "Bob" and
"Jane" to want to marry. In a just and fair society, we don't
base rights on whether a majority see your choice as absurd or not. Instead, we
see to assure that YOU get to live your life freely, and that so do OTHERS. Any exceptions to that have got to be necessary, for example, to protect
others, or to prevent harm.This exception is not necessary.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is not that strident in its
beliefs on homosexuality. In fact, they counsel full fellowship for celibate
homosexuals. There is a congregation in Salt Lake City composed of
non-practicing homosexuals who wish to keep Christs commandments. So
far, no gay-rights activist has had the fortitude to burn a Quran on the
doorstep of a militant mosque where imams advocate the stoning of homosexuals
(even celibate ones). Oh, I forgot, criticizing Moslems is
off-limits for the Politically Correct.
Let me get this straight ...We were attacked on 9/11 by Islamic
terrorists. Innocent people died. News cameras showed people dancing in the
streets in Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Syria and other countries who received
billions in foreign aid and trillions in the form of price gouging on oil for
years.Rather than an apology, the Islamic world celebrated, made
additional threats and/or blamed someone else.And the left wing in
our country wants to understand them.But these same liberals condone
violence and persecution against Mormons because 52.5% of a state (where Mormons
are 2% of the population) voted that marriage means 1 man, 1 woman.Persecution is nothing new to the Mormons. It is easy to hate a people who
are in general happy, successful and friendly - if not a times superficial.
Missouri rednecks (and they were rednecks by any definition) killed and hurt
Mormons until they deserted their homes and land with no compensation.When I read the escalating rhetoric, I hope cooler heads will prevail.
Otherwise, this could escalate into right vs left Civil War with many lives lost
To the 7:42 commentator, When picketers make false claims that Mormons
practice polygamy. When they shout "Mormon Scum". They have crossed any lines
of acceptable behavior. Maybe their actions are not illegal, but they are
To the 7:35 commentator, there is a big difference between peacefully
expressing your opinions, and the beating of your oponants, desctruction of
their property and outright intimadation that has been engaged in by the anti-8
people. I think it is wrong to force someone out of their job because
they exercised their right to political participation. However it is even more
wrong to force someone out of their job because of the Church they belong to.
The latter is what the anti-8 people are trying to do to the CEO of Black and
To the 7:25 commentator, The practice of plural marriage is suspended
because the Lord has forbidden it. Legalizing it does not make it an acceptable
practice in the Church. The Lord, not the supreme court, decrees when plural
marriage is allowed and when it is not.
To the 3:14 commentator, Iraq was never a religious war. Saddam
Hussein was a secular leader. The goals of regime change are inherently
establishing a secular government. Even the Shiah/Sunni divide in Iraq is
only vaguely religious. It is more of an ethnic issue. People are not trying
to force others to their form of belief, but to get more power for their
group. If religion caused war than the worst wars in the 20th Century
would not have been started by the a-religious Nazis.
"This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain opinions simply
because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion
will be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be
viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.Am I saying that the voting
rights of people of religion are in danger? Of course not! But there is
occurring a discounting of religiously based opinions. There may even be a
covert and subtle disqualification of some for certain offices in some
situations, in an ironic irreligious test for office.Before the
ultimate victory of the forces of righteousness, some skirmishes will be lost.
Even in these, however, let us leave a record so that the choices are clear,
letting others do as they will in the face of prophetic counsel.There will also be times, happily, when a minor defeat seems probable, but
others will step forward, having been rallied to rightness by what we do. We
will know the joy, on occasion, of having awakened a slumbering majority of the
decent people of all races and creeds which was, till then, unconscious of
itself."Neal A. Maxwell, BYU Devotional Address, October 1978 "
Ted . . . yer a knucklehead but we still love ya. Joshuall
OK. I've reached my saturation point for negativity, my own and others. It's
time to chill out. I'm going to do what I can to promote homosexual marriage,
but I'm all done being upset with people.Christmas is here (skeptics
love Christmas too). Ski season is here. It's time for fun. I wish everyone
- friend and foe alike - an outstanding weekend.
Lets face it. The LDS are an easy and politically acceptable target for bigotry.
Those Catholics, Latinos and Africa-Americans who were much more numerous in the
pro-prop 8 vote (LDS represented about 2% of the voters) are protected by
political correctness. It's selective indignation.
Also, the church didn't fund the money for prop 8. People did. I was never
asked to put my money into the funding, so it wasn't even something that was
expected of us. The church never forced us to vote a certain way either. We
were asked to read and understand the prop and then vote according to what we
felt was the best decision. Never at any time did I feel like the church was
speaking for me or forcing me to vote a certain way. I made my decision for
myself, for my own reasons, for what I felt to be the best decision. It was
nothing AGAINST gays, it was feeling that marriage should be between a man and a
women. My belief in God, according to me, and what I feel he stated by placing
only a man and a women first on earth. To me that set the stage of how this
life was to be. If you choose to be gay - your choice and I will not rag on you
for that, but marriage is a whole different thing for me.
Keep boycotting us. It only strengthens our resolve as a religion and people.
We have been here before and we will be here again. Someone has to
stand up for the truth and what is right.This has all been
prophesied from ancient times to the present.We're sorry if it hurts
your feeling but we aren't going to change the truth to fit your lifestyle.
Let's have every business post a sign that they either support same sex marriage
or traditional marriage in their windows. Then we can all support or boycott
the businesses that stand on our respective side. No fence sitting. Boycott
anybody that does not display a sign.
"And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river
of water, a great and spacious building...""And it was filled with
people, both old and young, both male and female...; and they were in the
attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and
were partaking of the fruit.""And after they had tasted of the fruit
they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell
away into forbidden paths and were lost.""And he also saw other
multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.""And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And
after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me
and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.""...for as many as heeded them, had fallen away."
I am a gay man, and I have been personally harmed by policies that have targeted
gay people, and know other who have as well. I have been called more than my
fair share of anti-gay epithets, despite the fact that I have never called
others names or fought against their rights.I oppose vitriol,
intolerance and violence period, both on principle and because they are really
counterproductive as strategies.What saddens me is that many,
including many of those now standing up for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints and the Catholic Church, is that many only see the intolerance and
fight it when it is directed against them. There has been ample
vitriol, intolerance and, yes, violence, directed at innocent gay people for
many centuries. I suggest the LDS Church include those innocent gay people
front and center and point out the many outrageous and inexcusable actions taken
to harm those gay people over time. Only then, perhaps, can we
truly have a dialogue, and realize that we ALL deserve fair and equitable
treatment-- even those most convinced they have right on their side.
The gay community can NOT do whatever they want. Violence and intimidation has
never been acceptable in this country. The NYT ad has created a opportunity for
the Prop 8 Opposition to restore dignity, respect and relevance to their side by
expelling and exposing those who have sought to intimidate or harm in the name
of same sex marriage. You have the national stage, lets see what you do with it.
bgubler - The LDS didn't look for the victim role. It was given to them. There
were so many people that passed prop 8, not just the LDS. It was many churchs
that spent much time and effort into the passing. Infact, if it had been just
the LDS it would not have passed. Please don't give us the credit for that,
because that would be wrong to do. There where MANY. It would also be very
arrogant for us that are LDS to think that we did it alone. We did not. We had
many others helping that have their own beliefs. Others that don't agree with
us on religious beliefs, but for one election we all stood on the same ground
with the same belief in marriage. I also know many LDS that voted against prop
8. It was not a religion that passed this, it was a people. Many people of all
back grounds and beliefs. Please just except that the PEOPLE spoke.
You make it sound like the Mormons are in the minority: "the rest of us don't
have to agree."The group that makes up "the rest of us" who don't
agree with the Mormons are the clear minority. Mormons made up a rather small
percentage of the voters that supported Prop 8. Go find someone else to
I have an alternative suggestion for the same sex marriage crowd: Rather than
spending time with half-way measures like picketing or blacklisting, why not
round up the Mormon, Catholic, and other religious contributors to Prop 8 and
burn them at the stake? This way we will know for sure how sincere the
Politically Correct community is about such concepts as tolerance and diversity.
Those measures worked pretty well during the Middle Ages when it came to
dealing with Waldensians, Anabaptists, Wiccans, and other pesky religious
minorities whose perspectives were not popular at the time.
Where's the law? Why weren't arrests made? These goons were committing violence
and breaking laws left and right, yet the police and law enforcement agencies
just stood by and watched. It's no wonder we have lawlessness in this country.
David - Are you kidding me? What you just posted shows your
ignorance. The Mormon church had NOTHING to do with the origination
of Prop8. Prop8 was a ground roots effort by people of MANY different faiths in
the State of California and was not directed by any one in Salt Lake City. It is true that once Prop8 was on the ballet that the Church encouraged
its membership to support the ballet, as is their constitutional right, but for
you to through out Prop8 as a document from the Mormons preaching hate only
shows how ignorant and foolish you are...but I guess you are used to being seen
as a fool.
I have a real hard time understanding any of these accusations against the LDS
people! ? What is it hey actually did that ANYBODY isn't doing themselves?
They expressed their right of opinion. They came together as a group. They
were not in this by themselves. Can't the same be said for the opposing
factor? They are expressed their right of opinion too, right? they voted.
THEY LOST!!! They gays most certainly are a group, and they came together to
fight AGAINST something they believe in!!! From my point of view...I live in
CA. I am gay. I am LDS. I voted YES on Prop 8!! OK so what does that make me?
I'm not an idiot. I know exactly what I do and have done! I want equality
rights for ALL, just like the rest of those are fighting for SSM. I just
believe they 'gay agenda' picked the wrong battle. Try ASKING for what you
want, instead of trampeling & shreading the RIGHTS and beliefs of another!! I
believe YOU are the ones that have turned this into a fight! BACK OFF! Let's
find a common ground and work together!
Anonymous...goodby!!!I don't believe you are, or ever were, LDS.BTW: "..Why do Mormons always think....". how are Mormons different than
any of the other churches that are based on the conservative, moral precepts of
the Bible?. Are not Catholic, Baptist, Assembly, Lutheran and many more
AGAINST gay marriage? oh, please, please let me know how we are SOOO
NARROWMINDED in comparison with the other conservative-values-based
denominations and religions.as for me and my house, we will serve
the Lord... I'll stick around...can't beat the truth.
There are some very disappoinitng comments on these pages. Much hate is being
spewed. I would remind people on both sides that name calling and insults are no
different than what those carrying out crimes are doing. It is hatred all the
same. People disagree on things all the time. That is not the
problem, hatred is the problem. The majority in the gay community would not
support what is being done by a few. While we stand up for what we believe to be
right let us not stoop to the level fo those who seek only to hurt and
attack.I think that is what a God would expect of us.
It's nice to see how the Church, or this paper, tries to mislead as if the New
York Times is blasting the ad. Typical! If it was against the Church you can bet
New York Times would be no where in the heading.
I don't understand why the Mormon Church is the big target when a coalition of
many people, some representing Churches, organized the campaign to pass
Proposition 8. The percentage of Mormons in California is small and not all
Mormons voted "For" the proposition. There are millions of non-Mormons who
voted to "For" it. The election is over. Let's move on. The majority of the
voters have spoken.
I'm very happy to see that there are others who stand by the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints and are not afraid to do so. I used to think that
those who are gay were a quiet sort of people, but I have to say my opinion has
changed alot. they have shown that they are very violent and they don;t care who
they hurt or what they destroy! Well, all's I can say is, their day of judgement
Mormons didn't decide the election, 52% of Californians did. I just don't
understand why that is so hard to understand for some of you?!
Joshua ben Josephs's statement was one of the stupidest things I have ever read!
The mormon church exercised it's right to fund prop 8. Now they are
experiencing the protest of those unhappy with the outcome. The protesters are
exercising their right to do so. But sending white powder is not
protesting it's threatening and is not acceptable. However when
their is a call to 'ban' the protest that's unacceptable too. You have no right
to ban anything.The anger of the church is that they have no power
over non-members. They can ex members but all they can do to in response to the
protests is whine. The members of the church just can't believe it doesn't have
the absolute power it has in Utah. Too bad. Get over it.
our country is falling apart, why ? just keepreading what people are
To Joshua ben Joseph:Please explain for all of us what rights the MORMONS!
Have taken away from you? The only right that we have that you don't is to
have the word "marriage" attached to our sacred unions. Find another word and
we are equal. I can't believe all of this is happening over one word. You are
acting like a spoiled brat on the playground!!! We could care less what you do
just find another word. What is so difficult about that? WERE THERE NO
OTHER GROUPS THAT voted for Prop 8? YOu people show your ignorance by
constantly attacking the mormons when they had so little to do with the results.
We may be the pharasees but really??? do you think The Savior would agree with
what the way the LDS church has been treated? Get real? Ye who cast the first
I totally agree. The LDS church is trying to control others. If they
want to believe gay marriage is wrong, that is their right, however the rest of
us don't have to agree.
TO Henry Drummond: There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Disturbing a church service is wrong, picketing is not. Similar to the LDS
church saying they are excercising their freedom of speech, so are the
picketers. However, interupting a church service, vandalism and violence cross
"Why do Mormons always think they have to define everything and decide what who
can do what and how?" was asked in in first comment.A better
question would be:Why do gays and lesbians think they have the right
to redefine Marriage and then impose their definition on society thus
threatening religious freedom?(Certain Catholic services in Massachusetts
had to close because they would not help gay/lesbian couples adopt children
etc)Gay marriage is not a civil rights issue. Not in the least. Seeking to redefine the marriage based on ones personal PREFERENCE (be they
born with it or be it acquired) is NOT a CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. No way.
Anyone, not just LDS people, who donated to fight same gender marriage cannot be
suprised when people fight back. I am not even gay, and I will not support any
business that donated money to defeat gay marriage. I don't want my money to
fund the hate. That is my right. Those who are against gay marriage should make
up for it by supporting those same businesses. It should really be a wash.
To Anonymous 1:46: I'm sure it is a very great sacrifice for you to leave the
Church. No doubt you haven't had anything to do with the Church for many years.
This is a really great excuse for you to make a big statement, isn't it.
Look, the GLTG community has the right to do what they want. They have every
right to the group that **financed** taking their rights away.The
Beckett Group has the right to do what they want.Mormon members
financed Prop 8, so they are targeted more. Other church has been picketed as
well. As Americans we tend to make our voices heard with our money. While I
don't support boycotting someone just because they are LDS, I fully support
boycotting someone because they donated to Prop 8. Political donations are made
public and many people donated under the name of their business. At
the end of the day, both groups are simply using their freedom of speech and
their rights to make their own decision.
I think it's so funny the way the GLBT community has received it's talking
points from GLBT Central. They have been instructed to use the word "HATE" at
every turn. They manage to insert "HATE" into every sentence every time they
run into anyone who has the slightest disagreement with them. If
they lose an election it is "HATE." If any one disagrees with their lifestyle,
it is "HATE." If anyone doesn't like their choice of wardrobe, it is "HATE."
If anyone disagrees with their choice of music, it is "HATE." "HATE, HATE,
HATE, HATE."You think you can use the word "HATE" to intimidate and
threaten anyone who doesn't want you to destroy true marriage and traditional
family values. Well, guess what, WE WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED. We will continue
to fight for what's right. And we are NOT AFRAID. "They that be with us are
greater than they that be against us."
Honestly, you need to stop trolling this web site and go read the full NYT ad.
It was well written and supports all religious faiths from back-lash of
expressing their constitutional rights. www.nomobveto.org Once you've read it,
then maybe you can post something intelligent.Gay people have rights
too, but the fact of the matter is the proposition won due to having enough
supporting votes. Don't like it? Then next time get off your duff and vote for
what you believe. But at the end of the day, the ad is great and so is our
In a game of any sport this would be considered a pretty sound blowout.
Lets not fool ourselves, the Mormon opposition to gay marriage has little to do
with homosexuality. In truth it has everything to do with that old bugaboo,
plural marriage. If state courts rule that gay marriage is constitutional, how
long will it be before they see that prohibiting adults from consensually
entering in to plural marriages is also a violation of basic human rights,(an
argument that the church once made on behalf of plural marriage) whether these
rights arise out regligious practice or contract law. That is what is really
bugging the church. What then do they do with the "suspended" practice if it
becomes legal? How many married members will want to once again "espouse a
"until we all come to a unity of the faith." I am encouraged to see the words
of the apostle Paul being fulfilled in our time. More and more Christ-believing
people will unify when push comes to shove.
Once again, the church took a stand. Took the opinion they're entitled to, and
forcibly put it into the public domain. I kind of like the ire directed
towards the church.
Your scripture work is horrible at best. Do you really want to bring the
scriptures out on this subject? If you do this gay-lesbian movement is over
before we get out of the books of Moses. Read all of the scriptures rather than
manipulating one verse to show your disdain for LDS members.
I think a lot of us are missing the point. Isn't it a matter of what God says?
This is his world. He set the rules.
As a Mormon, I am always amazed at the evil statements still being tossed out
against Mormons. Never in my life have I been taught in the Church to be this
vile, evil, mean person that anti-Mormons represent us to be.Mormons
in good standing are taught to be moral, loving, charitable, honorable and many
other positive things, but they are also asked to be active in their community
and government as a force for good. Prop 8 was an attack on tradional marriage
which is a moral issue that most Mormons understand. There has been
no Mormon attack on gays, no protesting of a gay-owned business, no attack on
gay churches, no Mormon sent powder-filled envelopes with hopes of raising
terror. Mormons are taught to love and tolerate all people from all walks of
life. The fact that they don't believe in the gay lifestyle does not mean they
hate gays.I know several people who are gay and they are my friends.
I do not hate them and I do tolerate the fact they are gay, but that does not
mean I have to accept a government sanction of eliminating traditional marriage.
Civil unions, yes.
Gee, who was it who said "as ye sow, so shall ye reap"? The Mormon Church helped
to sponsor publicly aired commericals about their point of view, and we should
stop publicly expressing our point of view? They organized and sent volunteers
to our homes, door to door. It is now an offense that we bring our point of view
to their doorstep?
It was not that long ago that the homosexuial lifestyle was not considered by
anyone to be "normal" At the current time, there are many pedophiles that
alternative sexual preferences. Should they start to be considered "normal"
because they cannot help their sexual preferences? Should it be accepted, they
be allowed to marry their young, innocent victims because they did not choose
their lifestyle? I think not. Anything that waters down marriage to allow
another alternative lifestyle for one group, could potentially water down
marriage for any future alternatice lifestyle, even one that the majority of
people consider abhorrent.
re: Henry Drummond | 12:39 a.m. No Henry - you dont understand.If
gays or LDS state their opinion - that is freedom of speech. If gays or LDS
engage in vandalism, intimidation or McCarthyism - that is a threat to freedom
The Beckett ad condemned terrorizing a place of worship. How can anyone
possibly criticize them for doing that, or for thinking that terrorizing a place
of worship is somehow OK? I'm Jewish, and I'm sickened by some of the recent
attacks on the LDS church. I hope whoever sent the white powder to the two
Mormon temples is caught and prosecuted. These are hate crimes. Simply being
in favor of Prop 8 is not a hate crime.
for the demonstrations in South Central L.A. and the boycotts of Black and
Hispanic businesses. What those crying about Prop. 8 do NOT want to talk about
is that that 70% of Blacks and Hispanics voted for Prop 8. They obviously do not
consider this to be a civil rights issue. They do not consider gays and lesbians
to be their "civil rights" brethren at all. Not wanting to confront such a
devastating reality, the LDS church is targeted instead. How ridiculous is that?
"Separation of Church and State" does not mean that people of faith and moral
principles, churches or religious organizations stand back and do nothing. ..read and listen to the Founders.. it is the duty of a free people to
maintain a moral society in order to remain free .. this nation is founded upon
the principles of the ten commandments ...not any State sponsored Church but on
a moral basis written in the laws and Constitution...without that foundation
then there is chaos and the society will fail...the basis of our free society is
the individual and marriage ordained between a man and a women for the creation
of families and children which continues society...it is based on rights of
life,liberty and property that are God given...the Founders were concerned that
"the people" would not be good (moral)enough to maintain their freedom. They
knew that if people of faith do not stay vigilant then society will unravel as
every other civilization had decayed .. gays have been allowed to live a
lifestyle freely in America but the basis of laws for the preservation of this
nation must be kept or we will all lose our freedom.
The control you speak of is called "self-control." And, if you don't want any
part of it, perhaps it's best you don't want to be part of the Church anymore
(if you ever were).
Why not keep quiet and let people think you are intelligent instead of opening
your mouths and removing all doubt. Everyone has an opinion! Usually stupid!
Shut up about this already!
How strange it is to me that people fight over names. The Gays want the right to
be called Married. Well why dont we just give it to them and then call a
relationship between a man and a woman a Lawful Union. Guess what would happen
then?? The gays would then demand the right to have a Lawful Union and forget
the marriage title. Hey everyone, names are just that, everyone has equal rights
now under the law so leave it all alone. Anyone remember the film the Life of
Brian where the guy wanted the right to have babies??? I mean he knew that he
couldnt have them but he wanted it known that it was his right if he could.
Right now the whole planet is in that movie.
I am glad to belong to a Church that teaches clear principles of morality and
does not bend to accommodate the wishes of those who would choose a different
course, just to try and please everyone.It seems fair to me that the
Church states its position and supports measures that uphold that position. It
would be a fairly meaningless institution if it did anything less (and there are
plenty of those 'feel good' institutions around)Disagree by all
means, but please understand, that the principles of morality which underpin the
Church's position are determined by God.Those, member and
non-member, who struggle with this firm/consistent stand can find peace by going
to the real source of the Church's position - in sincere prayer.
"Religious wars are wrong" quoted the article. Isn't that what the majority of
wars have been about? The war is Iraq is a religious war, with the US saying
our god is better or more real than your god, and vice versa. Religian causes
Why do Mormons always think they have to define everything and decide who can do
what and how, etc. It is not my idea of a church I want to be part of any more.
It seems like a group of people who want to leave others out and exercise
control over others. I really don't need to be a part of this kind of control.
May I suggest that opponents of Prop 8 find other places to demonstrate? I don't
like feeling threatened when I go to church. I go their for peace. Only in the
most barbaric of wars do enemies target each others places of worship. This
behavior is very unamerican and in fact illustrates the worst in human behavior.
It needs to stop. I go to my church as a sanctuary from the world.
It is the reason people have faith, to dedicate their lives to something greater
than themselves and refocus on loving God and your neighbor. I recognize many
people do not share my same faith or even have a faith, but they should still
respect the faith of others. A few weeks ago I saw a video of gay
people running into a Christian church yelling "It's okay to be gay!" They threw
out flyers and one couple even started making out in front of the congregation.
This was in the middle of a sermon and the preacher anounced "this is not
planned...we don't know whats going on." That is despicable behavior and
reflects poorly on the gay community.
To "Nephi" and other poor mislead knuckleheads - STOP with the "denying my
rights" language - no rights were or are being denied - NONE. And
to you others that like to quote scripture against the LDS Church - give it up,
you don't know what you're talking about or who's church you're criticizing.To the homosexuals - what a bunch of hypocrites who think tolerance is a
one-way street. The PEOPLE of California - and many other states have spoken -
marriage should and must be between a man and a woman. Good thing two, because
at least in this one area the people's position is in harmony with God's.
I still regret that the way this was handled by the LDS Church it seemed to
become far too political. It is time to read St Matthew Chapter 7.
of persecution and learn the lesson of tolerance. Just 'cause your neighbors
weren't tolerant of your polygamist ways doesn't make it right for you to turn
around and be the bully.speaking as a 5th generation Mormon i'm very
disappointed in the church's push to overthrow someone else's rights. love your
neighbors people. don't believe the lies that gay marriage will affect you or
your marriage at all. the church operates successfully in countries that already
have gay marriage.
Gay marriage is coming. One funeral at a time.
besides evangelical Christians and republicans were people who had less than a
college education or in the low income bracket (according to the latest Public
Policy Institute of California poll). Race wasn't a predictor in voting for prop
8. Blacks voted "no" if they were educated and/or in a higher income bracket and
vice versa, poor less-educated whites voted "yes."
Are you kidding me? You use the bible as your defense of homosexual marriage?
I hate to break the news to you bud, but the bible condemns homosexuality. Any
practicing homosexual who calls themselves christian are only mocking the God
they profess to believe in.
You said it amazingly well Eric Larsen...stop the bashing, live the way we are
taught and do not resort to their level. I so agree.
Thanks to the Beckett Fund for their ad, I wonder if they will also run it in
the LA TIMES, it is here where it is really needed.
Let's see if I understand this.If Mormons direct their considerable
resources against Gays to deny them the right to marry that is "free speech" and
"religious liberty".If the gay disagrees with them then that is
"mobocracy", "thugary", and "intimidation".Now I understand.
It is possible to love someone and not approve of their lifestyle. I
have plenty of gay friends and I may not care for their choices but it is their
choice. I can't believe the way the word hate is being thrown around. I think
the GLBT community has some of the most fantastic people Salt Lake has to
offer. I have met many who are kind loving and extremely generous. I
think it's unfortunate that the behaviors of a few is causing people to call
them terrorist. There are some hateful people out there. Overall I see two sides
who can work together and get along just fine. I know I'm doing it.
The Mormon church had enough guts to defend prop 8. Its too bad the LGBT
community has fallen to this level. Sadly they continue to show selfishness as
they mock others. Everyone has there own opinions! That is what makes America,
America! Its good to see people like the Beckett Fund standing up for them.
Re: Joshua ben Joseph What civil rights are you talking about?
To bk: So sorry that you think the Constitution of the United States contains
something you call "the separation of State with Moral religious issues." It
contains no such provision. What the Constitution does contain is a provision
the prevents the government from establishing a state religion and prevents the
government from interfering in the free practice of religion.There
is no Constitutional provision that even prevents -- or even discourages --
churches or religions from throwing the full weight of their influence into the
democratic processes by which the people govern themselves in America.You might be surprised to learn the the phrase "separation of church and
state" does not exist anywhere in the Constitution of the United States. The
document protects our freedom of religion. It does not stifle it!
Too many of the comments on both sides of this issue are disheartening. I have
worked hard for many years to defend the traditional family. I have also
employed and worked beside many homosexuals in the entertainment industry here
and in New York City. I have never discriminated against them. I hired them
because they were the best at what they did. They knew I was
Mormon. They asked about my beliefs. I told them it was true that my religion
does not support their lifestyle, but I promised to treat them with respect and
as I would anyone else, and I did. I explained it this way: I
expect you to keep your lifestyle to yourself homosexual or heterosexual - and
not to proselytize the young people that come to study in my program. That
would be inappropriate. They understood and had no problem with it.However, when it comes to defining marriage, we owe it to our children to
provide the optimal environment for their upbringing. Virtually every social
science study has shown that children fare better with both a mother and a
Would someone please let me know where "marriage" is listed as a civil right. We
are throwing around these terms like everything is a civil right. What's next?
Please allow me to help you understand that your tone of voice is not what one
would consider an "adult" persuasive statement. You may want to re-evaulate
how to talk to others before you broadstroke such caustic accusations.
What about the separation of State with Moral religious issues? why would the
state want to change the foundation and pillars that the constiution stands on.
The Fathers that signed this great document told us that when these pillars
fall so will Democracy.
Please stop saying that every opinion that disagrees with yours is founded on
nothing but hate and a desire to rob you of a "basic human right." There is no evidence, precedent, or tradition that permission to marry a
person of the same gender is a basic human right. California's
Supreme Court misused their authority to overturn a vote by the people of the
state of California, which is shared by 29 other states across the USA. Prop 8
reaffirmed the will of the people on this issue.The gay community,
in a matter of six months, used this ruling to redefine "basic human rights" to
include same-gender marriage. One ruling in one state, contrary to
tradition, history and a sizable majority of the rest of the US does NOT grant
gay marriage the status of a "basic right."Marriage has always been
and is still defined in 29 American states as between a man and a woman. Be
happy with civil unions. Religious people don't opposes you on this. Stop the
violence, boycotts and intimidation and move on with your lives. Let us
continue to use the term marriage as we have for the past millenia.
Don't you think that people were "angry" or at least very annoyed when a few
California judges over turned the will of the majority of voters on the earlier
The LDS church has dealt with adversity and persecution for most of its
existence. We will come out stronger because of this experience with our heads
To the monitors. You can keep censoring me, but as already stated, I am
against violence. So this one is for you. Gay marriage will exist. Violence
shouldn't happen. LDS supported and funded a repeal of marriage for gay people
and some hate you for it and a very few get violent. Censor this one too, but
it's a fact.
To Speak Out at 9:17, I have to agree with you that mob retalition is
wrong. However, the issue goes deeper. There are two boycott movements
that are so irrational that they move beyond even anger at others for political
participation. The by far least logical is the boycott of Utah. Since
they are calling for the boycott of Sundance merely because it occurs in Utah
they have gone from attacking people for political particiopation to attacking
people for living in the wrong state. This is clearly out of line. The
other is the call to boycott all "Mormon owned businesses". This includes
Marriot. Beyound the fact that there is no evidence any Marriot contributed in
any way to the Yes on 8 proposal, this is even more questionable because Marriot
is a publicly traded company.
Hmm, it is interesting that the comments reflecting the most misinformation also
exhibit the worst writing skills. It seems the writers show the same disregard
for researching accurate and unbiased information as they do for using the
correct language skills that they were taught in school. I wonder how often in
life they are summarily (perhaps unfairly) dismissed as unintelligent?
Seth, disagreement does not equal hate. Check Webster on it. There just might be
other reasons, even religious ones for opposing gay marriage. What if this were
actually more about love than it is about hate? You may not agree, but you don't
have to. People see things differently all around us. Don't cop the easy out of
calling it "hate". You know better than that.
To the 8:13 commentator, I reject that use of terms like "being gay".
They are inherently inprecise. I hold that homosexuality is a sin. However, as
you allude to, this is different than having same-gender attraction.
However, to some radicals if you state that those with same-gender attraction
should not act on it you are creating a "double standard". The problem
is that the Lord has one consistent standard. Only sexual relations inside a
marriage between a man and a woman are acceptable, everything else is a
violation of God's law. The real problem is that some believe that sex
is a fundamental right instead of something that should be inside marriage.
Respect please respect...Bravo Becket and NYT to publish such
clarion call and defending our constitutional rights to share our views
publically,express our values, and the right to choose--through vote--the rules
that will define our society. I had/have several friends who are and
were gay or lesbians==some of them LDS. Though we did not share the same
principles and disagreed that issue we never were disrepectful one toward the
other. I do not agree with all laws and those I don't like, I want
them changed. Sometimes I am frustrated, Noneless I agree and support the
legislative process on which our society operates.Threat and
intimidation is not part of my values and should not be tolarated.
RE: 'one of the few': You are mistaken if you think that when a
church speaks out about its beliefs, that it violates 'separation of church &
state.' 'Separation of church & state' does not require individuals or an
organization to sit back with zipped lips. Freedom of speech is alive and well
in the USA.
Shouldn't waste my time, cause odds are no one will pay attention...but here
goes.The comments here keeps veering away from the fundamental fact
behind this article: The ad in the NY Times is NOT about who is
right or wrong in the California Prop. 8. vote. It is about the
disturbing actions of a number of people who have harassed, attacked, and
threatened Mormons because the LDS church encouraged its members to support
Proposition 8. Those actions are despicable and unjustifiable, no
matter who is did it or what side the issue they're on. It's about time
somebody besides the Mormons themselves stood up against the outright thuggery
that's been going on.
All humans should seek peace in the world. Any activist groups who produce
violence to protest something is breaking the law, and is violating the rights
of others of free speech. If the gay community were democrats would they protest
all the people who voted for McCain. Same difference. Any vote is voicing a
belief, or voice in a democratic country regardless of what the vote is about or
for whome it was for. I am quite perflexed that the Governor of CA has not
condemed these attacks on the LDS Church. If the LDS church were attacking the
gays, I bet he would be the first to condeme. Step up Governor for your citizens
Jabba! my friend, do not talk about any subject that you do know about.
The LDS church is founded on the foundation of Apostles and a Prophet, the Chief
cornerston himself is the Savior, Jesus Christ. I do believe that cults do not
have this kind of unending leadership period.
To Greg - Northern California,I will give yo proof of hate and
disrespect towards the gay and lesbian community: Proposition 8.That
is certainly ONE SINGLE DOCUMENT that PROVES the hatred and disrespect of gays
and lesbians.YOU are looking like the fool. But I'm sure you are
used to that...
I am a stunch supporter of the Becket Fund, I may have even given money to
them, I really don't remember. They have a monthly email that I get.
They are among the most true defenders of religious freedom. They have stood
against attempts to stop the building of a Sikh Temple in the Yuba City area and
to stop the conversion of a no longer used convent in suburban Philadelphia into
a Jewish Synagogue. They also stood with the LDS Church in its attempt to build
a chapel in West Lynn, Oregon. No group has been more diligent in
advancing the RLUIPA and the right of people to practice their religion as they
and not just the government sees fit. Unlike many, they understand that most
religions need a place to practice, and that religions and not the government
have a right to decide what is a religious matter in architecture.
You claim that Mormons are preaching hate and disrespect towards the GLBT
community. What is your proof? I challenge you to show
me ONE single document, article, message or talk given by any Mormon official
calling on its members to show hate towards any group. The only group in this
whole event showing HATE are the FEW extreme gay activists (notice how I did not
roll the whole GLBT group under the bus).So before any of you speak
up again, please do so with some evidence, otherwise you simply look like
fools.Greg - Northern California
Stop it already. Mormons trying to justify their stance looks like hate. Gays
attacking mornons looks like hate. Neither of you are above the other. From
these comments neither represent Christ and his teachings. This is very very
sad. You should all stop posting and look within yourselves on how to make this
better rather than beating each other up. This is a sad representation of each
Any church has the Constitutional right to speak out on a political issue. And
members of any particular church can choose to follow their churches views or
not. Illegal mob retaliation against those who are peaceably expressing their
views is just that- illegal. The American political process allows for freedom
of expression and requires tolerance of views that might be different from your
own. But anarchy can never be tolerated.
LDS members: please listen to the leaders and refrain from intimidating,
demeaning, or harassing the LGBT community. Our purpose is to promote morality
while maintaining civility.There is a time and a place to voice our
opinions--the democratic process of voting. We can be steadfast without
backbiting or denigrating those who don't agree with us.Thank you,
Beckett Fund, for placing your name on something so controversial. I appreciate
you standing up for what you and I believe to be right.
RE: Joshua ben Joseph and Seth--The LDS Church is/was against Prop 8 not to take
away the civil rights of homosexuals, but because they believe in what the
Scriptures say; that marriage is between one man and one woman. The church does
not condone sex outside of marriage--FOR ANYONE--thus their stand. They will
tell you that they condemn the sin and not the sinner.I am a member
of the LDS church and I think what they did was wrong. They forgot about the
"Separation of Church and State". and I believe they made a big mistake in
taking a public stand. You must remember, however, that it was ultimately the
people that voted--not the church. Just because the LDS church is more vocal
about their beliefs shouldn't make them a target for violence. The Catholic
Church is also against Prop 8, but they have chosen to be more quiet about it.
You liberals always use the same irrational reasoning. Mormons don't hate.
Voicing you opinion is not hate. If the Mormons were so hateful towards gays,
then why do they allow gays to have one of the largest gay pride parades in the
nation?Once again, voicing ones opinion is not hate. Hate is
vandalizing someones property or church. Hate is sending white powder to
someones home or place of worship. Hate is rioting when the vote doesn't go you
It is interesting that gays say what happens in the bedroom is private and no
ones business, but they sure love rubbing everyones nose in it.People who insist mormons were the major voters that pass prop 8 are
thinking"DON'T BOTHER ME WITH THE FACTS, MY MIND IS MADE UP"
I agree with you 100% and appreciate your objective and personal perspective. I
am a musician who grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and have many friends
who are homosexual. They are also lucid, intelligent, and fully understand my
right to believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Some agree
with me, and some do not. We respectfully agree to disagree. But without
question, the extreme gay activist groups are the most aggressive, destructive,
and manipulative of ANY activist groups, and I'm including the extreme animals
rights groups and extreme environmental groups. None of this aggression and
truth-twisting is new to me: they are adept at accusing their so-called
opponents (just those who disagree with them) of the very things that they are
doing and saying.
Why do mormons preach so much hate in the name of religion and democracy?
Something is seriously wrong with the lds culture.
Quit twisting words into something opposite.The only hate being
espoused is by you.I am certain that the 52.5% of the California
population that voted for Prop 8 harbored little if any hate toward their gay
brothers and sisters. They were not voting out of hate, but only to defend the
ancient and sacred title of marriage.Cease accusing me and my fellow
LDS of hatred. I have not an ounce of hatred towards you or anyone in the
GLBT.But, I am sick of you trying to make me something that I am
not.You seem to gloat in calling good evil and evil as good.
Sorry, but that is patently false.Steve
The LDS church is not an organization that believes in hate. Hate is not the
reason they are against same sex marriage. A moral belief that marriage should
be between a man and a woman is not equivalent to hate. In a country where
freedom of speech and freedom of religion are basic constitutional rights, no
organization should be the victim of mob violence and intimidation for simply
professing what it believes. Mormons are not going to change their minds, they
will not back down. Mormons are tough and they are solid in what they believe.
The definition of marriage and family is not going to change for members of the
LDS church. Those that are vandalizing, protesting, boycotting, sending white
powder etc. are more full of hate than any member of the LDS church that I have
ever met. Mormons have been the target of hate before and I am sure they will
be again in the future. Tar and feathers didn't stop Joseph Smith, Being driven
from homes in the dead of winter didn't stop the early Mormon pioneers. Many
have tried to stop the Mormons with hate before but they are still here.
Thank you Becket Fund. Millions of citizens voted. A constitutional
ammendment was the will of the majority of the people. Individual supporters
(citizens) on boths sides of the issue raised millions. It's legal. I don't
'hate' anyone in the gay community for voting against Prop 8. It's their right
to vote in accordance with their beliefs.Some have forgotten though, I have the
same right to vote in accordance with my beliefs. I wasn't happy that the
majority of the country voted in a liberal president, but there is no-one to
blame and nothing to be done. It is one of the fundamental freedoms of our
country to have a voice through a vote. Voting is not a hate-crime.
belong to another era when mob rule and bigotry were the accepted order of the
day. Oh, and "Nephi" being gay is not a sin. Immoral conduct is. Get the
difference? Probably not.
If being Gay is a sin. Then is a matter between God and the sinner. Since when
God needs your help. A secular government should provide equal rights to all
citizens of the land.Mormons are a minority in California. But a loud
minority that not only expresses its opinion but influence others through
expensive advertisement.Mormons are not victims, you have not lost your
rights.But you are using your influence to deprive a group of citizens of their
human rights because they are not in agreement with your religion.You may
use any excuse you want. You may even impose and shout your opinion. However,
that will not make it right.How far can you push a group of people and
expect no response?Social justice is a battle that is worthwhile to
fight.Mormons are not the victims, you are just another component of
legalized bigotry. Be Mormon be happyBut let other people be
themselves.A final question: How do you explain that are so many Gay men
and women in perfect Mormon families?
Dude get serious! The only one spreading hate is the gay thugs and poor sport
loser, just because things didn't go their way. The gays and lesbians have their
civil union and should be happy with that crap. They get special right then a
couple who does want to get married but want to live together.These
gay activist are are trying to reinstate McCarthyism and harrassing individuals
who voted yea on 8. This country was founded on freedom, Fee speech, free to
vote, free to think, free to chose, and the people of California have spoken. We
don't need the thought control police to run this country, which the gays are
trying to do. Big Babies!Look up the Surfing Rabbi article "We are
all Mormons" he put it perfectly about the gay community.
The homosexual mafia is out in force today commenting on this article.See you at the hetero pride parade Dec 27 in downtown SLC. Be there or be
Three cheers for civilized discourse and peaceful democracy. Put them mobbers
Where is the PROOF that "the gays" are really behind those few "violent" acts
that have been committed?Show me proof of ANY violence against
another, and I'll denounce it.But Christians should be the FIRST to
keep calm until the evidence is in.
Peace be to everyone. Let's move forward.
Thank you, Becket Fund.
Is becoming the most overused, misunderstood word in the English language. Why
do you accuse me of "hate" for casting a vote that preserves marriage as what it
has always been - between a man and a woman. This doesn't deny you of any right
that I have. We can all marry a consenting adult of the opposite sex, as mother
nature intended. If you demand a different kind of relationship (same sex), you
can have it. You just don't get to call it marriage. Suppose the
FLDS demanded that the state of Texas legally approve and sanction plural
marriages (they have not made any such demands, by the way, they simply ask that
the state not break into private property and seize their children). If someone
voted against requiring the government to legally sanction their relationships
as "marriage," would you call that person a bigot? This is no different.
Hollywood is banning companies who donated in favor of Proposition 8 (marriage
between a man and a woman). I think it's time Religious groups ban
Hollywood and all groups/companies that paid in favor to overturn Proposition 8
including people like Brad Pitt, Ellen Degenress I say we stop
watching her TV show and his movies.
You have inspired me.I have sent a check for $10,000.ooto the Becket
Fund for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C.(I'm making the donation in
As a gay man who is taking steps to overturn Prop 8, I denounce any kind of
physical violence or actions against the LDS Church that are otherwise contrary
to the democratic process.Marches, protests, raising public
awareness --- yes ---Illegal actions and harrassment --- no.At the same time --- just as educated people in the LGBT community
should take care that NOT all LDS are fundamentally for Prop 8, LDS people
should realize that the physical illegal retribution is not the cause of most
rational members of the LGBT community.
Since the gays are in the boycotting spirit, why don't you boycott all the black
and hispanic owned businesses and entertainers? Didn't the vast majority of
actual votes cast in CA came from those minority groups? The LDS faithful did
donate much of their OWN money and time to getting the word out, but they ACTUAL
votes came from the blacks and hispanics.When was the last time you
did a peaceful protest in south Central, or Compton? Since y'all are such tough
guys, why not wander down into those neighborhoods and spread your message of
peace and tag a baptist church down there? Just a thought...
No one is talking about why this even happend! California is BANKRUPT and it's
the only way they could bring in millions of "new" government revenue. Lawyers
like the ACLU went too Liberally slanted judges that illegally overturned LAWS
that the California people had already voted on years ago making marriage
between a man and woman only. Gays and Lebians have no civil rights
- they choose that option the moment they opt in to being Gay or Lesbian. California needs $$$$ so they offered illegal weddings, illegal overturn
of laws to drive both sides to dump money into their State. I am
glad the LDS, Catholics, Evangelical, Jewish & Christian churches stood up for
what 88% of Americans all believe. Marriage is between a man and a woman PERIOD.
Why should 2% of the population get to make up their own rules.
It's interesting that even though LDS members are typically known to vote
Republican and conservative, when Barack Obama won the presidency, "Mormons"
didn't form mobs protesting the African American community, demonstrate with
parades against the African American community, threaten violence against all
African Americans, and vandalize buildings that represent or are supported by
the African American community. Why, then, is it OK for many in the
Gay community (I certainly don't think all gay people have adopted this mob
mentality), also a minority, to do all of those things to the LDS community?
Isn't this a HUGE double-standard? Why is it OK for gay activists to now
persecute the LDS Church? 6% of Californians are Mormon. 6%. Guess what
people--it wasn't just the Mormons! If they're so persuasive, why isn't the
percentage of Mormons MUCH higher in California! The LDS missionaries have been
around for decades! The voice of ALL people spoke. The fact that it was highly
publicized only increased awareness, which should have brought out those for and
against prop 8. Deal with it and don't be hypocrites!
Prop 8 was passed by California's population. LDS members comprised only a very
small percentage of voters. Becuase Obama was on the ballot, unprecedented
numbers of blacks voted to support him. However, they overwhelmingly supported
prop 8 as well, with 70% of them voting for the measure.I find the
double standard of this country appalling. It is well documented that the LDS
Church preaches love and respect for all people, including homosexuals.
However, the Church has an obligation to uphold moral laws in government. The
Book of Mormon warns time and again that when the people of this land support
laws contrary to the commandments of God, He will withhold his protection and
support. For this reason, Mormons support such issues, and it is shameful when
they are threatened, demonized and attacked for voicing their beliefs in a legal
and peaceful way. The intolerant, hateful (yes hateful!) behavior homosexual
activists have demonstrated has proven that they only care to receive
"tolerance" but do not want to give it.It is funny that they will
also support showing diversity and peace towards radical Muslim terrorists, when
adherents to the Islamic faith despise homosexuality and will not allow it in
re: Seth | 5:37 p.m.Let me paraphrase you. "I hate intolerant people" As
soon as you understand what is wrong with that statement; then perhaps you will
understand how you do the cause a disservice.
I'm with Ted...boycott Becket Fund. Surely there's a Mormon with his hand in
I wondered how long it would take the LDS and Mormons to grab the victim role.
Mormon's don't practice there religious fundamental doctrine
regarding marriage. When a step towards a legal change that would step
towards to a legal practice as to second sealing in DC Section 132 (polygamy)
. One doctrine that is not currently practiced because of the law of the land.
But claim to a necessary sacrament for Mormons to reach their highest level in
heaven.This is the stuff that irony is made. Legal constitutional
debates has been the gay marriage would lead to changing the laws of the land
regarding polygamy. I don't think gay marriage is the real threat to the
Mormons, whose modern covert action is to oppose legalized polygamy by putting
it into state constitution...and pushing for US Constitutional changes...As
marriage between One Man and One Women... Interesting....
Any newspaper that is in business is getting read.Among newspapers
available to the very large number of New Yorkers, the Times is as likely as any
(maybe more so) to be read by gay activists, if they read.
It's one of the largest newspapers in the US. Are you implying that the
subscribers don't actually read it? Do they just donate their copies directly to
the local elementary school to be used by the students on paper mache projects?
Hey Josh Bengay Joe - The people (not just Mormans) of California have spoken.
Prop. 8 passed. Twisting the Bible for the gay lifesyle doesn't change anything.
If it's God's will, it will be done or the sinners will pay the consquences!!!
Jesus came to show mankind the better way. The Jewish people had to accept his
teachings. They thought they could make a mockery of the temple, guess what he
cleaned it up twice. Make a mockery of the marriage covenent (one man, one
woman)and be prepared to suffer God's wrath again at his choosing. Know your
Bible my good friend. Sayeth the Preacher.
Mormons need to be stopped. There is no place for hate in this world, especially
hate under the banner of religion. Mormons are a piece of work.
The homosexuals claim foul play in that the conservative majority has imposed
their will on the minority... WHAT OTHER PURPOSE DOES AN ELECTORAL PROCESS
HAVE?! The proposition or candidate which gains the most votes, wins. Obama
won because the majority of poeple voted for him. Prop 8 passed because more
poeople voted yes than no. What is the problem? This is the essence of the
democractic electoral system. These homosexuals are acting as if this is
something new and that they are victims of an unfair process.
The title should read "Becket Fund Ad Denounces Violence Against LDS".Otherwise, we'd have to say "Deseret News Ad Has Shoes on Sale 50% Off"
I'm glad someone is standing up for what is right and for moral beliefs. It is
sad that gays resort to violence and assaults on the religious when they don't
get their way. I just wanted to say thank you to all of those that voted to
protect our families in the California election.
re: Joshua ben Joseph | 5:13 p.m.Actually gay zealots are
unbelievable.They claim prop 8 supporters were liars for saying things
such as; churchs would lose their tax exempt status. Yet when prop 8 passed, gay
thugs began demanding that the LDS church lose its tax exempt status. Etc etc
etc. All they have done is prove their critics absolutely correct.I
am homosexual, but I do not call myself gay because I am disgusted by the
hypocrisy of the gay community. The Human Rights Coalition, Equality Utah and
other politically correct fundamentalist organizations do not represent me any
better than the Ku Klux Klan represents me as a white person.
I'm glad someone is standing up to these gay activist (terrorists) that have
been sending death threats, vandalizing property, forcing people to resign from
their jobs because of their religion, and assaulting people of faith. These gay
activists didn't get to alter the definition of marriage in the California
election. The gay facade of tolerance has disappeared and now we know what gay
activists really believe in anarchy and destroying morals and religion. Religion
clearly explains homosexuality/sodomy is a sin. The wicked take the truth to be
hard. This religious belief of homosexuality being an abomination is never going
to go away. Gays are wasting their time attacking the basic morals of religious
I wonder if gay activists still read the NYT -- does anyone else?
These thugs need to be stopped!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Boycott everyone you wish, Ted. You'll end up having no one to business with,
because no decent person of any race or religion would support violence,
terrorism, or religious persecution. You'd better check on all your
grocers, bankers, lawyers, dentists, optometrists, teachers in your children's
school, car mechanics, landlords, employers, employees, co-workers, and everyone
else in your life. Some of them might be Mormon, Evangelical Christian, or
Catholic. Some among them may have opposed the hatred being directed at Prop. 8
supporters and particularly Mormons. You surely wouldn't want to do business
with such creatures, would you?
Mormons are unbelievable!You rally to rip civil rights and equality
away from a group of people who have nothing to do with you and your religion,
and then you have the gall to call THEM "thugs"?You remind me of the
Pharisees, to whom Jesus said (I paraphrase):"But woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees (and Mormons), hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of
heaven (and marriage) against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither
suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (see Matt. 23:13)
I appreciate all that signed the document (ad) and paid for it.
It is easy for gays and lesbians to pick on the LDS Church - they know there
will be no violence directed back at them. They should try messing with the
Catholic Church and they would have Italian Mafia close the deal really quick...
Good. I will add the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C. to my
list of organizations to support and finance. Gracias!
Thank you Becket Fund! Mobocrats should be ashamed of themselves. Up
with Democracy! Up with Morality and Dignity!Up with
Marriage!As we say here in Canada, Peace, Order, and Good Government
(and Socialism and Separatism are not good government)!
Thanks to all these good people who signed and paid for this ad. We must all
stand shoulder to shoulder for what is right. These pro-gay
marriage thugs have shown themselves for what they really are. It's so
gratifying to see that many out there appreciate and support our efforts to
uphold the sanctity of marriage and are defending us against these vicious
there is a flip side to that story...I wonder if people targeted gays and
lesbians and boycotted their places of business. I wonder how that would be
viewed and yes we would probably hear a huge outcry for that reason and every
other reason under the sun why they are so picked on. I dont have a opinion
either way on prop 8. But I am getting tired of the griping and complaining. It
is what it is... people have voted on it repeatedly through the democratic
process. Dont complain because you don't like the outcome. Just move on.
Think the justices of the CSC will sign the petition also, as they seek for
loopholes in the law to overturn the vote of the majority?
Great. Now I can add the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty in Washington, D.C.
to my list of organizations to boycott and oppose.Thank you