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LDS have big image problem
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ex-mormon | 2:22 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
as I sit here in ex-mormondom, living in freedom of mind, writing my thoughts as
I simultaneously watch the BYU channel, I see on the TV a woman get up and talk
about love, talking softly to her children, charity, kindness. How do I feel?
I say, "you go girl." Cause she speaks truth, she speaks how I feel.
That's the great thing about recovering my own mind. I don't fear
hearing mormons talk. I don't hate. This woman is an ally in truth.
That's the great thing about owning your own mind. You can listen to
ANYTHING and not fear. Unfortunately what's sad is all the people I left
behind that still fear thinking, listening, reading, and studying their own
history. They're told not to look, not to listen, told via Bishop's
handbooks to swear alliegance to the church and disavow family members that
speak out about certain harmful things they've experienced. Why the huge
fear?
Why are members counseled to avoid listening to opposition? I mean early Christians in Christ's church were tortured and died for the faith...unmoveable, unshakeable in their beliefs. Truth is unchangeable. Anyone who tells you not to look has something to hide.
Why are members counseled to avoid listening to opposition? I mean early Christians in Christ's church were tortured and died for the faith...unmoveable, unshakeable in their beliefs. Truth is unchangeable. Anyone who tells you not to look has something to hide.
To Utah Image | 2:51 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
A few things I think you may be missing. One, this isn't a mormon state,
it's a state of the United States. You may have settled it but you
don't own it any more than the quakers own the eastern seaboard. It's
here for every citizen regardless of faith, culture, or color. Your leaders
applied for statehood. Some historians will say mormons gave up one of their
principle beliefs, polygamy, to gain that statehood. Two, I have never seen
anyone in the news trying to run the mormons out of Utah. This ain't the
1800's, stop living in the past. Three, not all historians agree that the
intent of Brigham Young was to simply escape persecution. The persecution of
those days was in large part about the practice of polygamy which Joseph Smith
denied and called abominable yet practiced secretly with vigor. More mormons
died on the trail than ever died of persecution. Some would say that the
migration to Utah had more to do with a leader isolating his followers to hold
absolute power. If you wish to check the mindset of Brigham Young, read the
journal of discourses. Four, I'd love to get along! :)
Comments continue below
how weird is that Pt 1 rephrased | 3:04 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I guess it's a bit much for those monitoring comments to express that you
find more peace and happiness outside of mormonism than you did inside? Ok, to
rephrase. I do. And I lived it well when I was in it. I can't express
how well my children have turned out, how my first and only marriage of 27 years
has improved. Maybe the censors in the Des News don't appreciate me
quoting their own articles on Utah having the highest rate of teen suicide and
highest rate of anti-depressant use in the nation? I'm not sure why they
fear that...I got the numbers straight out of their newspaper. I suppose if we
turn a blind eye to the problem it will fix itself? Look, I don't NEED to
destroy the mormon faith or kick the legs out of every member who does well in
the faith. But there are too many problems members of the LDS faith suffer
from. Something is alarmingly wrong when Utah is number 5 nationally in child
abuse and number 51 in spending on child education. I would love nothing more
than seeing Utah fix these problems. Blindness and censorship haven't
worked to date.
C in TX | 7:25 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Personally I have the deepest respect for the LDS Church. Growing up in the
Mormon corridor--ID, MT, WY-- I had the privilege of knowing many Mormons. They
are a fine group of people who raise wonderful families. I have read the Book
of Mormon and they are truly Christian. The SBC along with other protestants
need to open their hearts and live the gospel and quit their negative attacks
against the LDS.
--An Orthodox
--An Orthodox
Rich | 8:19 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I am not too worried, as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints I am happy and my non-member friends are comfortable around me. The
article refers to Mitt Romney. In 1928 a fellow by the name of Al Smith (devout
Catholic) was the Democratic candidate for President and he lost to Hoover. 32
years later we elected a Catholic, John F Kennedy to that same office. So
please have patience folks.
Orem Mom | 8:46 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
YOU all have the image problem! Look in the mirror! There is no image problem
with in the Church. I this your problem. Now go away and take you insults and
ignorance with you.
june member | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I have a bad self image by being abused mentally by church members just like the
OREM Mom on here.
Quit shouting. At least there is a newspaper like Des/News that lets everyone write their view points and feelings about this subject. Thanks, DN.
Quit shouting. At least there is a newspaper like Des/News that lets everyone write their view points and feelings about this subject. Thanks, DN.
Re: Trey, part 1 | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
To answer your points:
We believe in a virgin birth, and you can't be a virgin if you've had intercourse, now can you? There are several theories about how this happened, but since we do believe that Mary was a virgin at the time the Savior was born, your theory is out. Of course He partook of flesh and blood, He came to earth and had a body, didn't He? And God the Father was actually Christ's biological father, the same way our fathers are our biological fathers. It doesn't mean He was conceived in the same way.
The scroll described by Joseph Smith and multiple other people either living in the house at the time or coming by to visit Joseph as he worked on the scroll show it was not one of the papyrus fragments we have in the church's possession at the time. That scroll is described as being so long it filled more than two rooms of the Nauvoo House, and was written in red and black ink. What we have today in no way resembles that scroll. That scroll has been lost, so it can't be verified that it is the Book of Breathings.
We believe in a virgin birth, and you can't be a virgin if you've had intercourse, now can you? There are several theories about how this happened, but since we do believe that Mary was a virgin at the time the Savior was born, your theory is out. Of course He partook of flesh and blood, He came to earth and had a body, didn't He? And God the Father was actually Christ's biological father, the same way our fathers are our biological fathers. It doesn't mean He was conceived in the same way.
The scroll described by Joseph Smith and multiple other people either living in the house at the time or coming by to visit Joseph as he worked on the scroll show it was not one of the papyrus fragments we have in the church's possession at the time. That scroll is described as being so long it filled more than two rooms of the Nauvoo House, and was written in red and black ink. What we have today in no way resembles that scroll. That scroll has been lost, so it can't be verified that it is the Book of Breathings.
To Ex | 2:22 | 9:28 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
You're not free.
The fact that you're up after 2:00 a.m., staring at a sterile computer screen, typing a message so monumentally disingenuous, one that will be read by not more than a handful of geeks like me, is proof positive of the old adage, "some people can leave the Church, but they can't leave it alone."
Get a life! Use your freedom while you can, pal.
You'll pay dearly for it for a long, long time.
The fact that you're up after 2:00 a.m., staring at a sterile computer screen, typing a message so monumentally disingenuous, one that will be read by not more than a handful of geeks like me, is proof positive of the old adage, "some people can leave the Church, but they can't leave it alone."
Get a life! Use your freedom while you can, pal.
You'll pay dearly for it for a long, long time.
Re: Trey, part 2 | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Per the Kinderhook plates, the supposed entry written by Joseph Smith about
translating them was actually not written by Joseph at all, but by William
Clayton. What Joseph did do, or at least what people around him claimed to have
seen him do, was pull out a Hebrew dictionary and compare it to the forged
plates. He did not attempt to translate them in the same manner that he
translated the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price. There is no actual
evidence that he tried to translate them at all, though the church leadership
did keep copies of them for some years.
The BOM never mentions coins had by the people at all. It mentions weights of metal, which were common among most civilizations of the day, but nothing about coins, except for a mention in a chapter heading which was written more than 130 years after the BOM was translated.
Joseph Smith's diary just doesn't give the exact same details of the First Vision that other accounts give. Do you tell all your stories exactly the same way, word for word, each time you tell them? If Joseph had, people would say it was rehearsed.
The BOM never mentions coins had by the people at all. It mentions weights of metal, which were common among most civilizations of the day, but nothing about coins, except for a mention in a chapter heading which was written more than 130 years after the BOM was translated.
Joseph Smith's diary just doesn't give the exact same details of the First Vision that other accounts give. Do you tell all your stories exactly the same way, word for word, each time you tell them? If Joseph had, people would say it was rehearsed.
LDS v Gays | 9:47 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
The LDS Church and homosexuals are arguably the two most openly vilified and
criticized groups in our country today. There appears to be little stigma in
openly ridiculing these two groups whereas most other groups have extablished
some kind of legal or cultural protection against excessive and open ridicule.
Interesting how these two groups are now pitted against one another. Its kind of
like the two step-kids fighting one another rather than supporting each other.
Rob | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
WOW, it amazes me to see all the LDS members who come on these blogs making
judgments of other people they can not see. I think you folks as well need to
get a life instead of creating chaos on blogs. Maybe you are sitting there,
fatten, typing and griping too much. It seems that most everyone on here has a
life on their computer and whipping out their bad self image problems on a
blog..... Tee Tee Hee hee!!!...I'm in there with you grumblers.....Onward
gripes...
Tina | 10:04 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Oh yahoo! Where is John Pack L. when we need him?
KGEH | 10:31 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
No matter how you look at it, the MOROMON church is the ONLY TRUE church on the
earth today. Become a member and develop an extraordinary self image. Learn how
wonderful each and everyone of you truly are. We as members of the church have
the potential for becoming Gods if we live righteous lives here on earth. And
always treat others with deep respect and love, and rather or not others are
inactive, or nonmembers, try to love them with kindness. And above all be
genuine about your relationships and friendships, It means everything. People
can sense that in us if we are being real or faking it. And God bless you all.
Ray | 10:33 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
The LDS church is widey viewed as an extension of Freemasonry rather than a bona
fide religion throughout the US .. As long as the church tries to "lie in
the same bed" with the recognized Christian religions while having
massively different views on core principal values of those churches, it will
always be perceived to be a "cult" or an "organization" ..
The LDS church chooses to do this totally invalid aligning in an effort to
appear to be Christian just like the other guys too and therefore embelish
it's marketability to the under educated or desperate people that are
targeted for conversion.
KGEH | 10:37 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Oops! Typo mistake, I meant (MORMON)
Colin | 10:37 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
the one true church right .. the MOROMON church ... I have often seen it
mis-spelled as MORON church but this is a new one ..
realitycheck | 10:46 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
re Canadiandy 6:20pm
you've mistaken me for peterandrew at 1:25pm. He said there were 600mil gays in the world and I corrected him with the 2%-3% reponse (equaling 120mil) at 2:15pm. And you well know the gay ratio is about 2%-3% of the total population... and no - I'm certainly not gay - you can ask my Raiders cheerleader wife.
try to read clearly before posting....
you've mistaken me for peterandrew at 1:25pm. He said there were 600mil gays in the world and I corrected him with the 2%-3% reponse (equaling 120mil) at 2:15pm. And you well know the gay ratio is about 2%-3% of the total population... and no - I'm certainly not gay - you can ask my Raiders cheerleader wife.
try to read clearly before posting....
Anonymous | 10:49 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
to RE:Trey
I guess if you are willing to think that a virgin that has has intercourse is still a virgin your augment might have some merit, but since the word virgin is well understood and defiend..not so much
The sophistry that J.Smith did not "translate" the kinderhook plates has no merit, in that even if it was true. Then first presidency and the quorum of 12 stated that he did in multiple printings of history of the church meaning they said he did.
Either J.Smith lied about translating them or the "prophets" that followed him lied by stating that he did. your choice as to which "prophet" is lying.
Your augment on the Hebrew dict. is fallacious on its face since the kinderhook plates were not written in Hebrew nor similar to it in any way.
It does amaze me that every bit of evidence that would support momon arguments is always lost. Dozens of cities & battles with 100's of thousands dead but not 1 coin, nor 1 sword found.
I guess if you are willing to think that a virgin that has has intercourse is still a virgin your augment might have some merit, but since the word virgin is well understood and defiend..not so much
The sophistry that J.Smith did not "translate" the kinderhook plates has no merit, in that even if it was true. Then first presidency and the quorum of 12 stated that he did in multiple printings of history of the church meaning they said he did.
Either J.Smith lied about translating them or the "prophets" that followed him lied by stating that he did. your choice as to which "prophet" is lying.
Your augment on the Hebrew dict. is fallacious on its face since the kinderhook plates were not written in Hebrew nor similar to it in any way.
It does amaze me that every bit of evidence that would support momon arguments is always lost. Dozens of cities & battles with 100's of thousands dead but not 1 coin, nor 1 sword found.
re Duh 7:27pm | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
church doesn't change it's beliefs? are you serious?
of all the religions in the world, yours is REKNOWN for just changing at will. you actually have think living people are prophets, allowed to change things as they go.
how is that sticking to your beliefs?
of all the religions in the world, yours is REKNOWN for just changing at will. you actually have think living people are prophets, allowed to change things as they go.
how is that sticking to your beliefs?
Sam | 10:54 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I have seen it spelled as the great MORON church. Although I kinda like the
sound of 'MORoMon'-- It sounds very book of Mormon style.
Paperboy | 11:04 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I think we have to be careful not to overplay the persecution theme. Without a
doubt, the LDS Church is one of the most powerful private church institutions in
the world today. It posesses clout and respect among many governments and
corporations both in the U.S and throughout the world. Its financial resources
are vast. It is run by professional managers and executives who are
well-respected in their fields of study and experience.
The Church's core membership is devoted to the church's objectives and quickly and ably springs into action to help establish Church objectives, such as was evidenced during the recent Prop 8 campaign. Like it or not, the public image of the Mormon church is one of great wealth, power and influence.
If there is a puplic perception problem, it is centered in the public distrust of unbridled power, especially power and influence that lacks the transparency and accountability that is a requisite in a progressive and transparent society.
The question is how do we reconcile the need for checks and balances required to protect cherished civil rights with the goals and ambitions of powerful private entity like the LDS church?
The Church's core membership is devoted to the church's objectives and quickly and ably springs into action to help establish Church objectives, such as was evidenced during the recent Prop 8 campaign. Like it or not, the public image of the Mormon church is one of great wealth, power and influence.
If there is a puplic perception problem, it is centered in the public distrust of unbridled power, especially power and influence that lacks the transparency and accountability that is a requisite in a progressive and transparent society.
The question is how do we reconcile the need for checks and balances required to protect cherished civil rights with the goals and ambitions of powerful private entity like the LDS church?
Bill | 11:15 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I have the following information. Pologamy was stopped in the Church in the
late 1800s. Some say it was because of statehood and others say well it just
stopped. Pologamy has been practiced since the beginning of time. Moses,
Abraham, David and Solomon along with many other prophet of the Old Testament
had numerous wives. Each of these wives were selected by the Lord. When David
and Solomon did it out of Lust they lost their standing before the Lord. The
Church stopped because the Lord found it to a point many in the Church were
beginning to use it as gain. That is my belief and not official Church stance.
re K 10:53 am | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Just so you know - when you give your 10% to the church, you are not giving it
to God. If you think God gets it, you are sorely mistaken. Men get it, and do
with it as they please. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, and sometimes they build
a mall....
but God certainly doesn't get it. God has no use for money. Thought you would have known that....
but God certainly doesn't get it. God has no use for money. Thought you would have known that....
re Reality come true 11:05am | 11:26 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
end-of-days comment...
you need to hang out with Sarah Palin - she's also a big believer in end-of-days.
wow - talk about religious zealotry. lol
I don't think you need to worry - God will visit the other 10,000 planets that DIDN'T murder his son, before He bothers coming back here...
you need to hang out with Sarah Palin - she's also a big believer in end-of-days.
wow - talk about religious zealotry. lol
I don't think you need to worry - God will visit the other 10,000 planets that DIDN'T murder his son, before He bothers coming back here...
realitycheck | 11:39 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
re "To Ex" 9:28am
and you are wasting your entire life, filled with rules made up by men, in the hopes that maybe you may get to some level of heaven that is a little higher than the rest of us. So you're paying with your life (a long, long time) and we'll probably be in about the same place in the end.
you are the one that is not free. You're chained to your rules and notions of grandeur.
and you are wasting your entire life, filled with rules made up by men, in the hopes that maybe you may get to some level of heaven that is a little higher than the rest of us. So you're paying with your life (a long, long time) and we'll probably be in about the same place in the end.
you are the one that is not free. You're chained to your rules and notions of grandeur.
trey | 11:41 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
to Re:trey
Your statement that he did not translate the kinderhook plates like the book of mormon(that he claimed to be "Joseph Smith, Jr. The author and proprietor of this work " ) and the book of Abraham is a false dichotomy in that they (bom & boa )were not "translated" the same according to j.smith.
book of mormon claims to be 'translated' by putting seeing stone in hat then face in same hat then seeing the character and its meaning or by using the " stones in silver bows�fastened to a breastplate"
book of Abraham was supposed translated from Egyptian j.smith even published an alphabet and grammar of Egyptian language.
Luckily for J.Smith et al. it was lost... but then was even more fortuitously for the rest of us it was found and is available once again.. and it has as much do with the real Egyptian grammar as j.smiths claim of men living on the moon does to what was found there by NASA.
question e j.s. claims plates were take back by angel... what happed to the breastplate ?
Your statement that he did not translate the kinderhook plates like the book of mormon(that he claimed to be "Joseph Smith, Jr. The author and proprietor of this work " ) and the book of Abraham is a false dichotomy in that they (bom & boa )were not "translated" the same according to j.smith.
book of mormon claims to be 'translated' by putting seeing stone in hat then face in same hat then seeing the character and its meaning or by using the " stones in silver bows�fastened to a breastplate"
book of Abraham was supposed translated from Egyptian j.smith even published an alphabet and grammar of Egyptian language.
Luckily for J.Smith et al. it was lost... but then was even more fortuitously for the rest of us it was found and is available once again.. and it has as much do with the real Egyptian grammar as j.smiths claim of men living on the moon does to what was found there by NASA.
question e j.s. claims plates were take back by angel... what happed to the breastplate ?
re Trey pt 2 9:32am | 11:46 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
you stated several times that the book of mormon was "translated". I
thought Joseph Smith wrote it (in english) based on his discussions with God.
(hard to get past the whole "discussions with God" bit, but
that's a different story...)
so was the book of mormon translated? and if so, pls explain. Thought it was written in english in the first place...
so was the book of mormon translated? and if so, pls explain. Thought it was written in english in the first place...
realitycheck | 12:00 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
re KGEH 10:31 am
KGEH said - "No matter how you look at it, the MOROMON church is the ONLY TRUE church on the earth today.
KGEH said - "We as members of the church have the potential for becoming Gods if we live righteous lives here on earth. "
wow - it's simply amazing the benefits your church provides, and all for only 10% of your paycheck....
So you will become a God, for following all the rules of your church? And if you die and God says "come on in - sorry, there's only coach seats - no one flies first class except me" then are you going to be disappointed?
because I get to have a lot of fun and don't have anywhere near as many rules as you have. And I know I'm going to the same place you are because I lead a good life. I keep the 10 commandments and the golden rule.
If you're right, at worst I will be just down the street from you. And if you're wrong, you wasted your whole life conforming to a bunch of rules written by some guy in the 1800s.
good luck with that...
KGEH said - "No matter how you look at it, the MOROMON church is the ONLY TRUE church on the earth today.
KGEH said - "We as members of the church have the potential for becoming Gods if we live righteous lives here on earth. "
wow - it's simply amazing the benefits your church provides, and all for only 10% of your paycheck....
So you will become a God, for following all the rules of your church? And if you die and God says "come on in - sorry, there's only coach seats - no one flies first class except me" then are you going to be disappointed?
because I get to have a lot of fun and don't have anywhere near as many rules as you have. And I know I'm going to the same place you are because I lead a good life. I keep the 10 commandments and the golden rule.
If you're right, at worst I will be just down the street from you. And if you're wrong, you wasted your whole life conforming to a bunch of rules written by some guy in the 1800s.
good luck with that...
Scott, Iowa | 12:05 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Who should be asked to define misconceptions: LDS members or nonmembers? Looking
out a building does not always give us an accurate perception, sometimes looking
in will. Can we step outside ourselves to see how others perceive us? We usually
have to rely on our families, friends and strangers to find that perception.
Does the Church have any nonmember friends who could help out on revealing
shortcomings?
realitycheck | 12:11 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
to trey 11:41am
wait a minute... are you saying that the mormon belief is that seeing stones were put in a hat,and that's how the book of mormon was written? or using stones in silver bows fastened to a breastplate?
wow. You all REALLY needed something to believe in, huh. It's totally unclear how you got millions of people to believe that - and give you 10% of their checks!
well done. you all should go into mass marketing - you'd make a fortune. oh - wait - you are - never mind...
wait a minute... are you saying that the mormon belief is that seeing stones were put in a hat,and that's how the book of mormon was written? or using stones in silver bows fastened to a breastplate?
wow. You all REALLY needed something to believe in, huh. It's totally unclear how you got millions of people to believe that - and give you 10% of their checks!
well done. you all should go into mass marketing - you'd make a fortune. oh - wait - you are - never mind...
Caley | 12:13 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
OH, GIVE ME A BREAK, MR BILL! that's biggest bunch of mouth-off I have read
on here. It's dumb! The LORD never had a darn thing to do with polygamy.
Get a life! Only a MORON would think otherwise.
re Bill 11:15am | 12:28 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
so are you saying we should live as the old testament is written? cuz I'm
not really into stoning anyone, nor sacrificing my children...
has no one yet realized that the bible was written as a general user guide, not a detailed operator manual?
has no one yet realized that the bible was written as a general user guide, not a detailed operator manual?
dsff | 12:48 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
RE 12:28 pm
Isn't that the truth.
I find that most leaders in history write history to benefit themselves and not the rest of us. People in general enjoy making themselves look righteous and perfect to everyone else. People also have a good self image when they have power over others. It makes for a very happy human being.
Isn't that the truth.
I find that most leaders in history write history to benefit themselves and not the rest of us. People in general enjoy making themselves look righteous and perfect to everyone else. People also have a good self image when they have power over others. It makes for a very happy human being.
Dave S Lister | 1:17 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
re: Orem Mom | 8:46 a.m. Nov. 26, 2008
>>YOU all have the image problem! Look in the mirror! There is no image problem with in the Church. I this your problem. Now go away and take you insults and ignorance with you.<<
I have never seen anyone be partially right (the problem begins with oneself) & be so patronizing & judgemental about it.
But, Orem to borrow a concept from British comedy Red Dwarf is a "pocket of unreality" if ever there was one.
>>YOU all have the image problem! Look in the mirror! There is no image problem with in the Church. I this your problem. Now go away and take you insults and ignorance with you.<<
I have never seen anyone be partially right (the problem begins with oneself) & be so patronizing & judgemental about it.
But, Orem to borrow a concept from British comedy Red Dwarf is a "pocket of unreality" if ever there was one.
re: realitycheck | 1:19 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Until you have lived the gospel of Jesus Christ to its fullest extent, it's
hard to understand its many blessings. You sound like someone who has tried,
but couldn't, for whatever reason, and now is bitter about those who chose
to and can and want to share with that with others.
Married to a Raiders cheerleader? Best of luck with that.
Married to a Raiders cheerleader? Best of luck with that.
Ray | 1:31 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Hey Dopp! Case Closed! That was a very well thought out thesis!
haunyocker | 1:37 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
to: KC Saint. Will you please explain what "reach out" means. Does
it mean to compromise principles to garner worldly acceptance so we are be
"loved?" It never works Does it mean to change our doctrine to
placate born-agains who believe in a God created by a committee made up of half
poly-theistic pagans at Nice?
One of the previous commenters got it right. Jesus Christ had a terrible PR problem among a majority of Jews who voted by voice-vote to crucify him instead of a criminal.
The church is reaching out in the best way it can by providing help to those in need, I think per capita, better than any other church with less fan fare and more humility than the ranters at some evangelical cults.
It seems to me that many "Mormons" are mortified that they are actually being criticized for taking a "moral" position and have to defend themselves. Get over it. There will always be criticizers against those with any moral position. Christ didn't back down on any of is principles. Samuel stood on the wall and dodged the slings and arrows. Have some guts for heavens sake.
One of the previous commenters got it right. Jesus Christ had a terrible PR problem among a majority of Jews who voted by voice-vote to crucify him instead of a criminal.
The church is reaching out in the best way it can by providing help to those in need, I think per capita, better than any other church with less fan fare and more humility than the ranters at some evangelical cults.
It seems to me that many "Mormons" are mortified that they are actually being criticized for taking a "moral" position and have to defend themselves. Get over it. There will always be criticizers against those with any moral position. Christ didn't back down on any of is principles. Samuel stood on the wall and dodged the slings and arrows. Have some guts for heavens sake.
Image | 1:49 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
As a member, it's very interesting to me that some members can't see
why others don't like us. We're different, we're aggresive about
teaching others, and we make bold claims. As members we don't need to
apologize for any of these things. We just need to be aware of how these can
come across to non members, which often can be negative. I think we can improve
the way we are viewed by focusing not just on being better mormons, but by being
better people. Often times the two concepts can get mixed up.
Joseph L. | 1:53 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I'm an inactive member. However, I do not hate the church. Although I do
dislike the holier than thou group of people within the church. I find it hard
to be round people who think they are so much better (SUPERIOR) than the rest of
the world. So I choose not to attend meetings. There are members who are very
sincere, but there seems to be more that are not. Since leaving I have had a
much better self-image of myself even though I am now shunned by many of the
active members. Nonetheless I do not feel the pressure that i once had while
active and that as well made me depressed. I love God and pray always, but doubt
I will ever be active again.
To: re Trey | 1:54 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
"you stated several times that the book of mormon was
"translated". I thought Joseph Smith wrote it (in english) based on
his discussions with God.so was the book of mormon translated? and if so, pls
explain. Thought it was written in english in the first place..."
The Book of Mormon was translated from ancient golden plates written in Egyptian shorthand that were found in a hillside in upstate New York. It is a record of an extinct tribe from (most think) Mesoamerica.
Word print studies by the same companies (non-LDS) that are hired by courts of law to prove documents were written by certain people have shown that they were written by multiple people, and that Joseph Smith, Emma Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon or any of the other scribes or other prominent members of the early church were not among the authors. It covers multiple timelines and histories, with many substories and characters to keep straight, and Joseph Smith's own family admitted he was so uneducated at the time that he sometimes had trouble dictating a cohesive letter. He didn't write the book, nor did anybody else he knew, and evidence to that effect would be admissable in court.
The Book of Mormon was translated from ancient golden plates written in Egyptian shorthand that were found in a hillside in upstate New York. It is a record of an extinct tribe from (most think) Mesoamerica.
Word print studies by the same companies (non-LDS) that are hired by courts of law to prove documents were written by certain people have shown that they were written by multiple people, and that Joseph Smith, Emma Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon or any of the other scribes or other prominent members of the early church were not among the authors. It covers multiple timelines and histories, with many substories and characters to keep straight, and Joseph Smith's own family admitted he was so uneducated at the time that he sometimes had trouble dictating a cohesive letter. He didn't write the book, nor did anybody else he knew, and evidence to that effect would be admissable in court.
To: Anonymous 10:49 | 2:03 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
"I guess if you are willing to think that a virgin that has has intercourse
is still a virgin your augment might have some merit, but since the word virgin
is well understood and defiend..not so much"
Uh, you misread that. 'Re: Trey' said that Mary DIDN'T have intercourse, so she was still a virgin. We believe that Mary was untouched when she gave birth, just as the Bible says. There are a bunch of different theories floating around about how she came to be pregnant by the Holy Ghost coming upon her, as the scriptures say, but we do believe the Bible when it says she was a virgin. We have the same definition of virgin that you do. We don't believe that God came down from heaven and had sex with her, and the quote that Trey gave didn't say anything like that.
It said that Christ had a body of flesh and blood, which we believe, since he was born and lived and died, and that God was his biological father, just like our fathers are our biological fathers, just like 'Re: Trey' said. It didn't say that God came down and had intercourse with Mary.
Uh, you misread that. 'Re: Trey' said that Mary DIDN'T have intercourse, so she was still a virgin. We believe that Mary was untouched when she gave birth, just as the Bible says. There are a bunch of different theories floating around about how she came to be pregnant by the Holy Ghost coming upon her, as the scriptures say, but we do believe the Bible when it says she was a virgin. We have the same definition of virgin that you do. We don't believe that God came down from heaven and had sex with her, and the quote that Trey gave didn't say anything like that.
It said that Christ had a body of flesh and blood, which we believe, since he was born and lived and died, and that God was his biological father, just like our fathers are our biological fathers, just like 'Re: Trey' said. It didn't say that God came down and had intercourse with Mary.
exUtahn | 2:08 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Grew up in Utah as a non-Mormon. People ask me all the time what Mormons are
like. Here is my answer: Nice, decent, people, heavy on family values,
extremely judgemental and righteous. Going on vacation? Great place to take
kids, can be fun for adults, kinda tricky liquor laws, but not undoable. Their
beliefs? They think they are the only true church, which is a HUGE turn off for
everyone else who doesn't subscribe to that belief. Great friends, right
up until they figure out you are not going to convert, then their use for you
will wane. Great neighbors as long as you don't mind that the most you
will get out of them is a friendly wave. Their kids will play with your kids
when there is no one else, and they will invite them to fun things like family
home evening, mutual, and primary. Convert, convert, convert. I have lived
many places with a predominant religion and only in Utah was it shoved down my
throat every day. Only in Utah was I told regularly about my religion, most of
which was incorrect. Defend or deny but this is how I perceived your church.
To Trolls | 2:22 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Have a good day, and GO eat a turkey!
Trey | 2:29 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
re: to re2:
Coins.
I have read this defense before, of course the fact that every printing and every word there in IS approved by the living "prophet" then even the headings must be true and correct. Or do they just throw these things together ?
Ok, lets pretend that people that had used coins before decided to for go there use, and switch to a barter economy (not real likely) that still leaves these things (and others) claimed in book mormon that have no evidence of having existed in the claimed time frame.
Elephant
Sheep
Goat
Horse
(The defense that these names were just used to describe something else is fairly weak, in that if it is a perfect book why not use the names of these things in use at the time the llama was not unknown for instance)
Chariots
Steel Swords
Breastplates of brass and copper
Silk
Any records on metal plates of the jaredites and nephites
Any item with any old world script
A temple made like that in Jerusalem
Any city named in the book of mormon
Any examples of "reformed Egyptian"
Coins.
I have read this defense before, of course the fact that every printing and every word there in IS approved by the living "prophet" then even the headings must be true and correct. Or do they just throw these things together ?
Ok, lets pretend that people that had used coins before decided to for go there use, and switch to a barter economy (not real likely) that still leaves these things (and others) claimed in book mormon that have no evidence of having existed in the claimed time frame.
Elephant
Sheep
Goat
Horse
(The defense that these names were just used to describe something else is fairly weak, in that if it is a perfect book why not use the names of these things in use at the time the llama was not unknown for instance)
Chariots
Steel Swords
Breastplates of brass and copper
Silk
Any records on metal plates of the jaredites and nephites
Any item with any old world script
A temple made like that in Jerusalem
Any city named in the book of mormon
Any examples of "reformed Egyptian"
Bill | 2:31 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Actually what I'm saying is that Pologamy had been practiced long before
the Church began. The reasons are basically up to interpretation. However,
anyone with any knowledge of the Bible especially the Old Testament know that
those mentioned had multiple wives. In fact Abraham had several wives it is by
one of those wives that Isaiha was born. It is eviden that many fail to see
that in the Bible. Pologamy is really up to the Lord and if the Lord wanted the
Church to continue the practice no law in the land would have stopped it just as
it is today. The Church has disavowed pologamy and so do I until the Lord deems
the time is right again. The only way this will happen for us is if the Lord so
directs it. That is my firm belief that only through his living prophet do we
know what is true or false. Those not familiar with it should read about
David's and Solomon's transgression.
wise saying | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Some can leave the church, but can't leave it alone.
I don't know of any church that has people leave it and yet can't leave it alone and have to come back and nitpick. The Jews don't do missionary work; they do not want YOU to be a member of their faith. We could be like that I guess, close the doors forever, but that would be rude. It is easy to criticize. We all are at fault. We need the spirit of love and peace which is why I look forward to hearing from the First Presidency for their Christmas devotional, next week. Watch and you'll be touched--I promise. Without the spirit, Christianity does not make sense. Without the plan, the commandments don't make sense. Without love, life doesn't gel. To all who think we are small minded, why are LDS at the top of every fortune 500 company? At top of US senate. We are at the top of Ivy league schools, we start billion dollar companies every other weekend---and we are going to give back because we are told to love all.
I don't know of any church that has people leave it and yet can't leave it alone and have to come back and nitpick. The Jews don't do missionary work; they do not want YOU to be a member of their faith. We could be like that I guess, close the doors forever, but that would be rude. It is easy to criticize. We all are at fault. We need the spirit of love and peace which is why I look forward to hearing from the First Presidency for their Christmas devotional, next week. Watch and you'll be touched--I promise. Without the spirit, Christianity does not make sense. Without the plan, the commandments don't make sense. Without love, life doesn't gel. To all who think we are small minded, why are LDS at the top of every fortune 500 company? At top of US senate. We are at the top of Ivy league schools, we start billion dollar companies every other weekend---and we are going to give back because we are told to love all.
awsomeron | 2:35 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
We have seen the Enemy and they are us!!
I do not think that we intend to or set out to but we wind up doing so weather we desire to or not.
Sometimes it is our standards and ethics that get in the way and we should not be bothered by that we even should be happy.
The biggest problems comes from both extreme sides. The People that are so Holy that they are No Earthly Good. Just Holy Peddle To The Metal, down and gone.
The other Extreme being Name but Absolutely No Game.
Should up for the Name an The Blessing, and will show up again the Baptism. No Church and 8 years of No Sunday School for the kid. Never met a Word of Wisdom problem they did not like or embrace.
Other people mistake us for different Faith Groups. They will say We do not Celebrate Christmas or Thanksgiving or that we need find Jesus and Be Saved.
Also some have not gotten beyond Deceleration 2. Or Being "More White some and Delightsome."
I have been told by Non Mormons more about what Mormons Do then I have been told by Mormons. Usually Wrong.
I do not think that we intend to or set out to but we wind up doing so weather we desire to or not.
Sometimes it is our standards and ethics that get in the way and we should not be bothered by that we even should be happy.
The biggest problems comes from both extreme sides. The People that are so Holy that they are No Earthly Good. Just Holy Peddle To The Metal, down and gone.
The other Extreme being Name but Absolutely No Game.
Should up for the Name an The Blessing, and will show up again the Baptism. No Church and 8 years of No Sunday School for the kid. Never met a Word of Wisdom problem they did not like or embrace.
Other people mistake us for different Faith Groups. They will say We do not Celebrate Christmas or Thanksgiving or that we need find Jesus and Be Saved.
Also some have not gotten beyond Deceleration 2. Or Being "More White some and Delightsome."
I have been told by Non Mormons more about what Mormons Do then I have been told by Mormons. Usually Wrong.
realitycheck | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
re "re:realitycheck" 1:19pm
I sound bitter? sorry to disappoint you. and my wife says thanks.
"lived the gospel of Jesus Christ".. what? that's not what you do. You live based on a bunch of rules written by some dude in the 1800s. In the hopes of being special later.
but the bible is a simple guide, saying to be good to your neighbor and don't lie, cheat, etc. And to treat others as you would want to be treated. It's not a step-by-step manual. Getting to heaven isn't rocket science.
So you got pulled into a pyramid scam that says if you give 10% of your pay, then you can be a god. And it makes you happy - good for you. But don't expect some great reward when all is said and done. You're not earning bonus points if you refrain from living life fully and then sticking your nose up at everyone...
much to your chagrin, you don't have to be a religious zealot to get to heaven. You just have to be a good person.
And don't pray so much!! God is getting pretty tired of all the groveling - he's not vain, you know.
I sound bitter? sorry to disappoint you. and my wife says thanks.
"lived the gospel of Jesus Christ".. what? that's not what you do. You live based on a bunch of rules written by some dude in the 1800s. In the hopes of being special later.
but the bible is a simple guide, saying to be good to your neighbor and don't lie, cheat, etc. And to treat others as you would want to be treated. It's not a step-by-step manual. Getting to heaven isn't rocket science.
So you got pulled into a pyramid scam that says if you give 10% of your pay, then you can be a god. And it makes you happy - good for you. But don't expect some great reward when all is said and done. You're not earning bonus points if you refrain from living life fully and then sticking your nose up at everyone...
much to your chagrin, you don't have to be a religious zealot to get to heaven. You just have to be a good person.
And don't pray so much!! God is getting pretty tired of all the groveling - he's not vain, you know.
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The Hebrew text of the bible doesn't say "church" where the english translations say it. The literal translation of the hebrew word isn't church, it's "assembly," Now who do you suppose put that word "church" in there? Man? Church and religion builders? It's not about buildings and religion. Christ never charged a dime. No one owns God or Christ. THAT is the message. :)