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MormonTimes.com: LDS Church issues new Prop. 8 overview
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The NIT | 4:17 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The more sane members of the "homosexual community" need to step up
and tell their radical members that they are only hurting themselves. The way I
see it now, all members of this group are loons and I presume that they want us
to perceive them as anarchists, as well as outside the norm of American culture.
The political process worked and the PEOPLE of three states have spoken. Let
it go - you/they have a civil union which should be enough if you/they were true
to their espoused agenda.
Actually... | 5:46 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Homosexual hate directed against LDS will backfire. The attention and calls for
boycotts will serve to increase the stature of Mormons in the eyes of socially
Conservative Americans. It will assist in overcoming false negative stereotypes
groups such as evangelicals have about the LDS Church.
Comments continue below
RI Reader | 5:59 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
It seems the desire of the so called "gay" community is to have their
way - no matter what. They tried lawful means, and failed - although now the
issue will be heard by a California court - again. So now they resort to
violence and anger.
Sounds like people who are unable to control their emotions and passions - spoiled brats who have decided thay can have what they want as they want it without regard for the feelings and rights of others!
The after-vote violence certainly confirms that the churches and people advocating Prop 8 may have been right all along: the goal of "gay" marriage is not really about marriage at all; it's about agressive people forcing their "rights" and life-style on a society that is offended by the very nature of homosexual behavior. It's not "gay" - it's offensive!
Looks like we all need to prepare for a tough and violent fight ahead.
Sounds like people who are unable to control their emotions and passions - spoiled brats who have decided thay can have what they want as they want it without regard for the feelings and rights of others!
The after-vote violence certainly confirms that the churches and people advocating Prop 8 may have been right all along: the goal of "gay" marriage is not really about marriage at all; it's about agressive people forcing their "rights" and life-style on a society that is offended by the very nature of homosexual behavior. It's not "gay" - it's offensive!
Looks like we all need to prepare for a tough and violent fight ahead.
Linguist | 6:44 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I agree.
I would, however add a sentence:
All people of faith have cause for concern when others try to remove rights from their fellow citizens by voting on their lives.
I think that has to be the central method of every person of faith: we ALL get to live our lives.
People of faith need to be just as vigorous in fighting for the rights of others as fighting for their own.
I would, however add a sentence:
All people of faith have cause for concern when others try to remove rights from their fellow citizens by voting on their lives.
I think that has to be the central method of every person of faith: we ALL get to live our lives.
People of faith need to be just as vigorous in fighting for the rights of others as fighting for their own.
Nick | 7:18 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
"All people of faith have cause for concern when others try to remove their
legitimate voice from the public square."
- Making Prop 8 somehow a referendum on CHURCH rights is a sick example of confusing the victim with the perpetrator. The one group DIRECTLY losing rights here is the gay/lesbian community. The biggest donor to that effort is the church. The church is not the victim here, they are the perpetrator. If they want to establish a respected and permanent place in the public square in the future, they should choose to support topics that help people, not hurt people.
- Making Prop 8 somehow a referendum on CHURCH rights is a sick example of confusing the victim with the perpetrator. The one group DIRECTLY losing rights here is the gay/lesbian community. The biggest donor to that effort is the church. The church is not the victim here, they are the perpetrator. If they want to establish a respected and permanent place in the public square in the future, they should choose to support topics that help people, not hurt people.
Chuck Anziulewicz | 7:20 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Let's not forget that the overwhelming majority of "No on Prop.
8" protesters across the United States have been perfectly peaceful and
respectful.
And if any genuine anger has been expressed, IS IT ANY WONDER? Proposition 8 went far beyond simply prohibiting Gay couples from marrying. It also took away an existing right. The Supreme Court of California correctly ruled that there is no constitutional basis to deny Gay couples the right to marry; yet after over 18,000 such marriages had already taken place, now those marriages may ultimately be declared null and void, thanks in large part to the Mormon church.
For all those who either voted for Proposition 8 or contributed financially to its passage, do you now feel righteous and smug now that you may have helped invalidate over 18,000 existing marriages? And if it was YOUR marriage that had put up for a popular vote, don't you think YOU'D be just a little bit perturbed?
And if any genuine anger has been expressed, IS IT ANY WONDER? Proposition 8 went far beyond simply prohibiting Gay couples from marrying. It also took away an existing right. The Supreme Court of California correctly ruled that there is no constitutional basis to deny Gay couples the right to marry; yet after over 18,000 such marriages had already taken place, now those marriages may ultimately be declared null and void, thanks in large part to the Mormon church.
For all those who either voted for Proposition 8 or contributed financially to its passage, do you now feel righteous and smug now that you may have helped invalidate over 18,000 existing marriages? And if it was YOUR marriage that had put up for a popular vote, don't you think YOU'D be just a little bit perturbed?
Paperboy | 7:22 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Anyway you cut it, the decision to deliver such a highly visible position on
Prop 8 may end up setting back the LDS church more than 30 years in public
relations goodwill. Its decision to reverse more than 100 years of doctrine on
the worthiness of Blacks cleared the way in 1978 for the Mormon Church to enter
mainstream society and take a seat at the table of public acceptance. In a puff
of smoke, suddenly that goodwill has evaporated. It's not too late, but it
will take different thinking and leadership to make the necessary changes.
Nick | 7:39 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
To be clear, any and all physical attacks against people or property should be
condemned. These sporadic bits of illegal activity or threats to personal safety
do not JUSTIFY the churches support of Prop 8. The Church should recognize that
Prop 8 hurts people and they should be prepare to pay a price (as long as
everything is kept legal and everyone is kept physically safe) for hurting
people if that's what they choose to do. If they didn't want to be
confrontaional, they shouldn't have thrown their weight behind stripping a
class of people of their rights. THAT was very confrontational. Aside from
scattered examples of illegal reprisals, stop whining about civility - stripping
rights from a class of Americans is not civil. If you believe in what you did,
stand up and take your justified backlash like someone who stands by their
convictions. Or could it be that you are starting to see what you did as maybe a
little bit wrongheaded? And that's painful and you wish the protestors
woldn't put you through that pain?
Paperboy | 7:43 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Montors: Why was my comment not posted? I wrote a thought provoking comment that
in no way maligned Utah or the LDS church, nor was meant to be offensive.
George Mott | 7:51 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
No one is trying to interfere with the beliefs of the LDS Church. It is a
question of civil rights. If couples wish to marry that is their right and its
exercise hurts no one. If the LDS Church disagrees with this right they can say
so but funding popular bigotry against a minority group is immoral and possibly
illegal. Religious groups opposed civil rights for Blacks and Women more or
less on the same grounds. As the LDS Church stands for so much that is
admirable, the present obsessive opposition to same-sex marriage is all the more
puzzling.
back in the day | 7:53 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Recall when Kramer wouldn't wear his Aids ribbon during the Aids march,
look what happened to him,
and when Kramer was guarding the armoire and he got strong armed by the two gay dudes?
and when Kramer was guarding the armoire and he got strong armed by the two gay dudes?
Doodles | 7:58 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
These are calm, concise, and evenhanded comments on the miserable, violent
homosexual aftermath of losing an election. Tolerance and individual rights
should go both ways in our culture.
Adrenals | 8:07 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
As usual, the representatives of the LDS Church have hit the nail on the head.
Why should a 1% minority dictate family norms, laws and values for the remaining
99%? In Massachusetts, where gay marriages are legal, there have been documented
incidents where Christian parents have been jailed for protesting against having
their 5 year old children taught gay values in Kindergarten. It is very unfair
for the family-oriented majority to suffer for the anti-family minorities.
Luther | 8:10 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Homosexual politics and gay life style is a major and fast growing danger to
family, home, community and national social standars. If left unopposed it will
contaminated civilization as we now accept it beyond rerovery. All church
groups, social institutions and goverment agency need to work together to stop
it before it is too late.
Not Buying It | 8:23 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
As ususal, the church is nothing more than self serving. I would suggest that
you read the New York Times article and analysis of what happened for an
unbiased and much more accurate account.
Shaun McC | 8:27 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The common portrayal of gays in the movies and other media is of the handsome,
wise, sympathetic and artistic man who is the only true friend to the beautiful
woman. It is this type of portrayal that has brought many people to support gay
"rights" and encouraged the reduction of bigotry towards them. While
there may be some of those types of gays around, it is now obvious that there
are at least some who are intolerant, hateful, selfish and violent. It is quite
possible that the reactions of this group to a public referendum which they lost
will create fear in the observers and make all of us wonder if we ought to be
granting any type of "rights" to such a group. Do we grant such rights
to members of the KKK? The tactics of intimidation, hate and fear are pretty
similar. Do we grant such rights to street gangs? This minority of gays is
putting them in the same category.
Anonymous | 8:37 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Sorry, you can't vote for anything you wish. If people were allowed to
vote for ban on inter-racial marriage, for example, the courts would have every
right under the constitution to wipe away such a ban. Please remember that not
too long ago in our nations history it was felony to marry someone of a
different race!
At any rate, under the constitution, the courts have every right to strike down the voter approved ban of gay marriage. It's a moral duty to do so.
At any rate, under the constitution, the courts have every right to strike down the voter approved ban of gay marriage. It's a moral duty to do so.
Thanks for the Story | 8:39 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I'm saddened by the religious intolerance that is currently so evident in
our country. In spite of the rhetoric about religion during our recent
political process, so many people today are not civil nor do they respect
spirituality or religious thought.
There will be differences of opinion on political issues that affect our moral beliefs--abortion, stem cell research, euthenasia, same-sex marriage, etc. As well as differences in religion among people of all faiths, and of no professed faith.
Peaceful protests are part of the political process, but extremeism in any form leads to terrible outcomes.
Let's each one of us embrace civility, dignity and respect in our associations with others who differ with us, no matter who the "us" may be.
There will be differences of opinion on political issues that affect our moral beliefs--abortion, stem cell research, euthenasia, same-sex marriage, etc. As well as differences in religion among people of all faiths, and of no professed faith.
Peaceful protests are part of the political process, but extremeism in any form leads to terrible outcomes.
Let's each one of us embrace civility, dignity and respect in our associations with others who differ with us, no matter who the "us" may be.
Instereo | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
When a statement is issued advocating a strong position to take away something
another group feels are rights, make that statement after years of persecution
for your wanting your own rights and then finally to cap it off with a final
statement urging a respecting of rights in spite of the strong position against
another groups view of rights, shows a basic lack of understanding of people.
No one is questioning the LDS churches right to have their position. They can enforce it in their church. What bothers people is their desire to enforce that belief on to others through the political process. There is no live and let live in their position.
No one is questioning the LDS churches right to have their position. They can enforce it in their church. What bothers people is their desire to enforce that belief on to others through the political process. There is no live and let live in their position.
ab | 8:53 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Great article! It is nice to hear that other groups are coming
out to support the mormons. The mormons were not the only group that voted on
this, so it is nice to know that others are vocally expressing their support in
the church's view.
MattMO | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I do believe that the majority of the people still have good morals and there
seems to be a few who would like to make the rest of us think that this, gay
marriage thing, is what everyone should be excited about. We all have our vises
that we have to overcome in order to find peace within ourselves. Some say,
"I was born gay" just like someone is born a criminal or rapist or
alcoholic or born to tell lies or cheat, steal, rob, plunder, ect... These may
be things we are born with or maybe that we allow ourselves to be tempted by,
but when we try to get others to dismiss our own actions and make it OK by the
vote of the majority of the people and then think we wont have to face the
consequences we are sadly mistaken. We all need to repent and that first step is
recognizing that we have done something contrary to the commands of God.
MoJules | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
What outstanding statements from both sides of the issue. Sometimes we have to
agree to disagree, and sometimes we have to let the other side have the victory.
For to long, I have felt that the disharmony and sometimes hateful comments that have been stated towards the Mormon church by other Christian groups has been counter productive. With all the things going on in our society, I believe that the focus needs to be on what all religious groups agree on, and not what they disagree on. Prop 8 and humanitarian services are two examples of where religions have crossed over to work in harmony.
I also believe that this can be done with the gay groups, I was very impressed by the wisdom and maturity of the statements by some of these groups. I am sorry to say that I just assumed that all people against Prop 8 were rioting and trashing the Mormon's and being very vindictive, kind of like people thinking all Mormons practice plural marriage.
The media has covered the riots and left us thinking this was how the whole gay population is, but reality is, it's not true, I do hope we can get along.
For to long, I have felt that the disharmony and sometimes hateful comments that have been stated towards the Mormon church by other Christian groups has been counter productive. With all the things going on in our society, I believe that the focus needs to be on what all religious groups agree on, and not what they disagree on. Prop 8 and humanitarian services are two examples of where religions have crossed over to work in harmony.
I also believe that this can be done with the gay groups, I was very impressed by the wisdom and maturity of the statements by some of these groups. I am sorry to say that I just assumed that all people against Prop 8 were rioting and trashing the Mormon's and being very vindictive, kind of like people thinking all Mormons practice plural marriage.
The media has covered the riots and left us thinking this was how the whole gay population is, but reality is, it's not true, I do hope we can get along.
vox populi | 9:10 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Interesting to see that the "love that dare not speak its name" is now
the "love" that brooks no opposition.
To paraphrase the USPS' ancient motto, "Neither moral argument, nor social stigma, nor biological fact, nor political vote shall stay these GLBT partisans from the swift completion of their 'toleration' agenda."
Alexander Pope, in his "Essay on Man," looked at our approach to what we consider immorality, or vice: "Vice is a creature of so frightful mien as to be hated needs but to be seen. Yet, seen to oft - accustomed to her face - we first endure, then pity, then embrace." He didn't look far enough - after the embrace comes the one-sided pressure against virtue (the old morality), with the eventual goal of turning the tables so far that, instead of proscribing a behavior, "right-thinking" (so-called) people will actually promote it.
I am thrilled to live in these times, when the wheat and tares are growing to the point of being able to discern them for what they are, and discriminating (using that verb in its former, positive sense) between moral philosophies is getting easier. I count it all good - especially for people of faith.
To paraphrase the USPS' ancient motto, "Neither moral argument, nor social stigma, nor biological fact, nor political vote shall stay these GLBT partisans from the swift completion of their 'toleration' agenda."
Alexander Pope, in his "Essay on Man," looked at our approach to what we consider immorality, or vice: "Vice is a creature of so frightful mien as to be hated needs but to be seen. Yet, seen to oft - accustomed to her face - we first endure, then pity, then embrace." He didn't look far enough - after the embrace comes the one-sided pressure against virtue (the old morality), with the eventual goal of turning the tables so far that, instead of proscribing a behavior, "right-thinking" (so-called) people will actually promote it.
I am thrilled to live in these times, when the wheat and tares are growing to the point of being able to discern them for what they are, and discriminating (using that verb in its former, positive sense) between moral philosophies is getting easier. I count it all good - especially for people of faith.
Roger | 9:10 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I just wish the Church would stop and let this go away. This has hurt and split
the Church unlike any issue I have seen. I believe we have hurt our positive
image. Our image is reeling now and it will take years to recover in the eyes of
the general population. Stop already. We are only continuing to hurt ourselves.
dean | 9:11 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I am a member of the LDS church and have been for quite a number of years. I
must say I've lost a lot of respect for the church regarding the rights of
others.
We Thank Thee For A Profit | 9:15 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I have observed that the Mormon church always seems to relish its status as
"victim." What better way to rally the faithful and their money?
MetricWrench | 9:21 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
If I wasn't married to a good woman that keeps me in check I would probably
run around like a maniac protesting everything that I disagreed with. Now a have
a wife and kids not to mention a job. Maybe there is a reason that men is our
society are only allowed to marry women.
Where is the Prayer? | 9:21 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
It's interesting that the LDS church newsroom and media arm can find the
time to cherry pick statements from religious bloggers and media bites to
support their claim of persecution. Yet they are way too busy to comment on the
Common Ground Initiative, tone down their members fear levels and rhetoric, or
engage in any constructive dialogue after their polarizing Prop 8 campaign.
At this point it looks like the church Public Relations professionals are either playing the victim card for sympathy, or remodeling the church's image into something more mainstream for the evangelical community (insert any mine-sweeping for Romney 2012 reference here).
Instead of slick media releases, I would be more impressed if the LDS Church (and the other churches mentioned) would publicly counsel their members to PRAY for calm, peace, and civility. That is an appropriate religious (not political) response, which strangely no one has done yet.
At this point it looks like the church Public Relations professionals are either playing the victim card for sympathy, or remodeling the church's image into something more mainstream for the evangelical community (insert any mine-sweeping for Romney 2012 reference here).
Instead of slick media releases, I would be more impressed if the LDS Church (and the other churches mentioned) would publicly counsel their members to PRAY for calm, peace, and civility. That is an appropriate religious (not political) response, which strangely no one has done yet.
John Pack Lambert | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The Olympia incident was actually at an LDS Church, not a temple. It would be
nice if people would understand the difference.
However just because it was a chapel does not make the vandalism acceptable.
However just because it was a chapel does not make the vandalism acceptable.
Count Me... | 9:34 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
... on the side of those who think the protesters are only hurting themselves
with this hate-filled, thoroughly un-American hissy-fit. I understand the
protesters don't necessarily represent the bulk of the GLBT population, but
I hope the fair-minded and decent among the GLBT will continue to condemn these
protests, and let's hope in even more visible, clear and uncertain
terms.
Honestly--what are people watching these protests supposed to think? We're apparently supposed to see all the shouting, threats, intimidation, vandalism, hate speech and crimes (how ironic!), and outright anarchy in an otherwise civilized society and suddenly decide: Oh, dear--these poor, oppressed folks really deserve to be married and raise children! We really need more adults and children approaching political issues and social problems this way! We can trust these people with the future of our society!
Seriously--who are they convincing by doing this? DEFINITELY not me!
Perhaps there's a much, MUCH different way that people show how much they deserve marriage and children?
Honestly--what are people watching these protests supposed to think? We're apparently supposed to see all the shouting, threats, intimidation, vandalism, hate speech and crimes (how ironic!), and outright anarchy in an otherwise civilized society and suddenly decide: Oh, dear--these poor, oppressed folks really deserve to be married and raise children! We really need more adults and children approaching political issues and social problems this way! We can trust these people with the future of our society!
Seriously--who are they convincing by doing this? DEFINITELY not me!
Perhaps there's a much, MUCH different way that people show how much they deserve marriage and children?
To: Paperboy (7:22AM) | 9:35 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
You're wanting and waiting for the LDS church to change it's stance on
homosexual actions, particularly homosexual marriage.
Not going to happen. Ever.
Right is right and wrong is wrong.
Not going to happen. Ever.
Right is right and wrong is wrong.
Proud Episcpalian | 9:35 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
I was a 5th generation Mormon who outgrew it and quit going to church 30 years
ago. I didn't bother to formally quit because it was still part of my
heritage and I considered it to be somewhat benign. After listening to the lies
put out by the church here in California during the Proposition 8 campaign I no
longer felt that way and formally submitted my resignation.
re: dean et al | 9:37 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The church isn't in a popularity contest. It isn't trying to "get
with it" or be "cool". The church has always supported the
sanctity of marriage/families and always will...it shouldnt be a surprise that
they did with prop 8.
and DEAN im sorry that you think you're more rational/smart and more in tune with truth than the leaders you've followed for however long. why not show a little faith and hang in there and see where this all leads before turning your back and walking away (whether that be literally or not)
and DEAN im sorry that you think you're more rational/smart and more in tune with truth than the leaders you've followed for however long. why not show a little faith and hang in there and see where this all leads before turning your back and walking away (whether that be literally or not)
John Pack Lambert | 9:41 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Even if the LDS Church had been the only organization supporting prop 8, the
vandalism of churchs and hate directed at church members would not be
justified.
We need to stand more firmly with the Church and work harder to protect marriage.
We need to stand more firmly with the Church and work harder to protect marriage.
To Nick | 9:41 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
For the record, just what rights are in danger here?
California homosexuals have always had, of course, the same marriage rights as anyone else -- male homosexuals may (and do) marry females, and vice versa. In addition, just like everyone else, they have a right to a domestic partnership arrangement, that gives them all the rights of marriage, just by a different name.
If you mean a right to same-sex marriage, they never really had it. A couple years ago, 4 corrupt activist justices on the state supreme court erronieously "discovered" that the California constitution contained a secret "right" to same-sex marriage. That would come as a shock to the framers of that constitution.
Prop 8 merely restored status quo. And now, the problem is correctly restored to the political arena.
If you think you've got a right to marry your buddy, your sister, your baby, your gerbil -- make your case. And let the political process decide. That's your right.
But the only "right" that's actually in danger here is the "right" to have a buddy on a corrupt court invent a new law for you, abrogating the political process.
California homosexuals have always had, of course, the same marriage rights as anyone else -- male homosexuals may (and do) marry females, and vice versa. In addition, just like everyone else, they have a right to a domestic partnership arrangement, that gives them all the rights of marriage, just by a different name.
If you mean a right to same-sex marriage, they never really had it. A couple years ago, 4 corrupt activist justices on the state supreme court erronieously "discovered" that the California constitution contained a secret "right" to same-sex marriage. That would come as a shock to the framers of that constitution.
Prop 8 merely restored status quo. And now, the problem is correctly restored to the political arena.
If you think you've got a right to marry your buddy, your sister, your baby, your gerbil -- make your case. And let the political process decide. That's your right.
But the only "right" that's actually in danger here is the "right" to have a buddy on a corrupt court invent a new law for you, abrogating the political process.
irony | 9:42 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The current #1 most popular article on the Trib website is "Prop 8
involvement a P.R. fiasco for LDS Church". The comments there have an
interesting link about the leader of the Prop 8 campaign Gary Lawrence, and his
son, Matthew Lawrence, who is gay and has since left the church. Most supporters
of gay rights are the strongest defenders of all civil liberties including
religious freedom, so it is ironic that the argument was that this was an attack
on religious freedom. And where do people come up with these fabrications about
parents and churches being punished for not being pro-gay. I'm amazed if
anyone swallows that stuff, which is always a misrepresentation of the facts
when you track them down yourself.
Eric Larsen | 9:44 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Re: Paperboy
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the church doesn't want a seat at the table of public acceptance? If we simply changed our teachings based on the whims of society, we wouldn't be much of a "church." Whether you want to accept it or not, there ARE some things in this world that are black and white, right and wrong.
Re: Chuck Anziulewicz
"And if it was YOUR marriage that had put up for a popular vote, don't you think YOU'D be just a little bit perturbed?"
I can see your point here...but that doesn't make homosexuality any more right than it already is (or isn't). The fact of the matter is that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of LDS (and many other religions). The fact that it is inherently wrong is basis enough for individuals to vote their conscience based on moral grounds.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the church doesn't want a seat at the table of public acceptance? If we simply changed our teachings based on the whims of society, we wouldn't be much of a "church." Whether you want to accept it or not, there ARE some things in this world that are black and white, right and wrong.
Re: Chuck Anziulewicz
"And if it was YOUR marriage that had put up for a popular vote, don't you think YOU'D be just a little bit perturbed?"
I can see your point here...but that doesn't make homosexuality any more right than it already is (or isn't). The fact of the matter is that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of LDS (and many other religions). The fact that it is inherently wrong is basis enough for individuals to vote their conscience based on moral grounds.
Non Mormon | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Don't Bother ...
These people (the media, gays and their supporters) don't care one way or the other about "truth"; all they care about is shoving gay marriage down our throats. The "truth" is that this WILL be shoved down our throats if we don't fight back.
Thank God for your guys (MOs). As a Catholic, I never heard "my" Church ever speak up about the issues you guys have. They are afraid to say anything for fear of not being "loving". Don't kowtow to them (media, liberals and gay establishment) because in the end, they'll knife you in the back.
When it comes to this issue, there is NO "compromise". Look at what "compromise" got when it came to abortion. If you'll look at the article in AP this week that shows a "family" (Mom, Dad and two children); namely, bones of this family that are 4200 years old, you can see what "marriage" is. You don't see 2 kids buried with 2 dudes do you? No, of course not.
We (conservatives) need to make sure we don't sit back "now" and think this is over because it isn't.
These people (the media, gays and their supporters) don't care one way or the other about "truth"; all they care about is shoving gay marriage down our throats. The "truth" is that this WILL be shoved down our throats if we don't fight back.
Thank God for your guys (MOs). As a Catholic, I never heard "my" Church ever speak up about the issues you guys have. They are afraid to say anything for fear of not being "loving". Don't kowtow to them (media, liberals and gay establishment) because in the end, they'll knife you in the back.
When it comes to this issue, there is NO "compromise". Look at what "compromise" got when it came to abortion. If you'll look at the article in AP this week that shows a "family" (Mom, Dad and two children); namely, bones of this family that are 4200 years old, you can see what "marriage" is. You don't see 2 kids buried with 2 dudes do you? No, of course not.
We (conservatives) need to make sure we don't sit back "now" and think this is over because it isn't.
brian | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Dean, you are not a member of the Mormon church, you would know better if you
where and I'm sick of people saying they are when they are not. Guy people
are thinking they are the only once with rights and the people voted. Mormon
have changed in a lot of ways because on the laws of the land and they did not
do what the loving Guy people are doing. By the way guys have all the rights
black people have. You are don't a a race you are people that like sex with
the same sex.
Standards | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Some have said that the Mormon Church has set its self back 10 years or more
because of Prop 8. I think that it is great to have a church that is willing to
stand up to its standards no matter what. It's great to have a place that
won't change what it teaches no matter what the popluar thing to do is. If
God said the gay lifestyle is an abomination then who am I to argue with God?
Robert | 9:48 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The display of violence and anarchy put on by the gays in the aftermath of the
election really hurt their cause. The gay community is going to have an
impossible task of getting people to forget those images the next time they put
this issue on the ballot. You can be sure that the pro-traditional marriage
campaign is going to show those images in their commercials. Will the gays claim
at that time that the pro-traditional marriage campaign is based on lies? It is
obvious which group has society's best interest in mind. In regards to
children not being affected, that claim could not be further from the truth.
Remember that gays must recruit new adherents to their lifestyle since they
cannot create their own.
Now I'm Convinced | 9:49 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Isn't this a case of the church and the Deseret News preaching to the
choir? This self-serving overview strikes me as nothin more than whistling past
the graveyard.
John Pack Lambert | 9:50 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
No one is trying to attack our beliefs?
What do people call Bash Backs call that the church "Disolve or be destroyed"?
What are we supposed to call people who chant "Mormon Scum" except hate mongers?
This is not a fight about the rights of people who practice sin and abomination. Civil Unions in California grant these rights.
This is a fight to keep marriage between a man and a woman, because if redefined the state would then have even more fuel for the pushing of pro-homosexual views on kindergratners. There is a relationship, although all the nuances and steps involved are not spelled out in literture that is meant for the averaged rushed voter to read.
What do people call Bash Backs call that the church "Disolve or be destroyed"?
What are we supposed to call people who chant "Mormon Scum" except hate mongers?
This is not a fight about the rights of people who practice sin and abomination. Civil Unions in California grant these rights.
This is a fight to keep marriage between a man and a woman, because if redefined the state would then have even more fuel for the pushing of pro-homosexual views on kindergratners. There is a relationship, although all the nuances and steps involved are not spelled out in literture that is meant for the averaged rushed voter to read.
Keith, California | 9:51 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
This comment isn't just about Proposition 8, which I supported. It seems
that, over the years, people of faith are always criticized for letting their
religious views affect decisions about social and political matters. Are
atheists and agnostics criticized for doing the same? This is a political agenda
to promote a life style,that we are supposed to accept. I wonder if there is
more to this. There are other traditions in America that are under constant
attack.
Deaf Guy | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
All Gays want to ME!!! ME!!! ME!!! ME!!! and dosent care what other poeple
think!!!!!!!!! how sad.
Deaf Guy
Deaf Guy
Thomas | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The Church goes along with what God has proscribed as the truth. Anyone who is
delusional about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints going away. It
won't. It will continue to grow and grow. You can attack it's
theology, attack it's Temples and Churches, attack it's members; but
it will not stop the growth.
Utah Grandma | 9:56 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
It is absolutely ridiculous to claim there is a "right" to marriage.
NO ONE has a right to marriage. If there were, we would see no spinsters or
lonely people--society would be forced to provide spouses for them, as their
RIGHT to be married.
People are not thinking logically here. If a right to marriage exists, then if a man decides to divorce his wife, but the wife does not want the divorce, she could force him to remain in the marriage because his divorce would be violating HER marriage right. That's where this fuzzy thinking leads!
Marriage is either given by God, as the churches claims, and therefore is to be conducted within His parameters, or it is a social contract meant to assure a father of his paternity of his wife's children. A homosexual union does not fit within either of these scenarios.
Clearly, the Church is not interfering with anyone's right to marriage, since no such right exists. The real issue here is the absolute right of members of the Church to exercise their religion free from the slanders, slurs, and duress of others. Homosexuals want us to call evil good; we can't do that!
People are not thinking logically here. If a right to marriage exists, then if a man decides to divorce his wife, but the wife does not want the divorce, she could force him to remain in the marriage because his divorce would be violating HER marriage right. That's where this fuzzy thinking leads!
Marriage is either given by God, as the churches claims, and therefore is to be conducted within His parameters, or it is a social contract meant to assure a father of his paternity of his wife's children. A homosexual union does not fit within either of these scenarios.
Clearly, the Church is not interfering with anyone's right to marriage, since no such right exists. The real issue here is the absolute right of members of the Church to exercise their religion free from the slanders, slurs, and duress of others. Homosexuals want us to call evil good; we can't do that!
John Pack Lambert | 9:58 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
The Church has never sought to be popular in the eyes of the extreme liberals,
we have always followed God's way and not man's, and this has lead to
many people dieing in the past.
Since 70% of African-Americans voted for Prop 8, I think the Church's stand on Prop 8 will help the church grow with the people who actually get baptized, African-Americans and other people of faith.
I have known white liberals who got baptized, but the only one I can think of was inactive in less than three months. The only man I baptized on my mission who got ordained to the Melchezidek Priesthood was an African-American, the member of my stakes high council who has been a member the least vamount of time (not yet three years) is African-American (although his Africna-American wife has been a member over 20 years) and the Home Teaching Supervisor in my Elders quorum is an African-Americans (his Dad is from Liberia, but his mom descends from people who were enslaved in America, so he is more African-American than Obama) who has been a member for about 14 months.
Since 70% of African-Americans voted for Prop 8, I think the Church's stand on Prop 8 will help the church grow with the people who actually get baptized, African-Americans and other people of faith.
I have known white liberals who got baptized, but the only one I can think of was inactive in less than three months. The only man I baptized on my mission who got ordained to the Melchezidek Priesthood was an African-American, the member of my stakes high council who has been a member the least vamount of time (not yet three years) is African-American (although his Africna-American wife has been a member over 20 years) and the Home Teaching Supervisor in my Elders quorum is an African-Americans (his Dad is from Liberia, but his mom descends from people who were enslaved in America, so he is more African-American than Obama) who has been a member for about 14 months.
John Pack Lambert | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
To the 8:23 commentator,
There is nothing unbiased about the New York Times.
There is nothing unbiased about the New York Times.
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