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Law adds to woes for LDS in Kyrgyzstan
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Anonymous | 5:51 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
well done arc,whoopie !!
Maybe | 6:31 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Maybe that nation and its people are ok. They do not need the Mormons.
Christians either. Why do religions push push push and then are surprised by
any push back? I don't get it.
Comments continue below
Henry | 6:58 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Children's Rights.... That is the direction the world and the U.S. is
headed.
It sounds good, that children should be "protected" from "indoctrination" by religions. But when you realize that it is parents, not government, who by-far, in most cases, have the highest vested interest in the welfare of their children, and that children's rights mandates compromise parent's rights to teach their children what they believe is best for them, it is frightening to think what the unexpected consequences of such laws will have on the next generation.
It sounds good, that children should be "protected" from "indoctrination" by religions. But when you realize that it is parents, not government, who by-far, in most cases, have the highest vested interest in the welfare of their children, and that children's rights mandates compromise parent's rights to teach their children what they believe is best for them, it is frightening to think what the unexpected consequences of such laws will have on the next generation.
Maybe Not | 8:28 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
It's not about a religious Us vs. Them -- it's about a government
saying Only Us, Not Them. Everyone's entitled to freedom of belief, Muslims
included. The problem is that if you want to be something besides Muslim in a
country with these laws, it's exceedingly difficult. Discrimination would
become state-sponsored, and people who want to be Christian will have their
lives negatively impacted in a significant way. That's the issue. It's
not because Mormons (and Christians in general) expect to be able to
'push' their beliefs on people and get put out when they can't.
It's because a government enforcing religion by law is discriminatory and
obviously wrong.
John Pack Lambert | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I have to admit I have never met anyone from Kyrgystan. I knew a lady at BYU
from Kazakstan, she ended up marrying an American and is probably still in the
United States.
arc, did your Kyrgystani friends join the church here or in Kyrgystan or somewhere else? The lady I knew from Kazakstan joined the church while an exchange student in high school in Seattle.
arc, did your Kyrgystani friends join the church here or in Kyrgystan or somewhere else? The lady I knew from Kazakstan joined the church while an exchange student in high school in Seattle.
Bob | 9:09 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
boo hoo, ahhhh poor mormons, thats one less country that you can't bother
people with you so called religion.
John Pack Lambert | 9:16 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
To the 8:28 commentator,
Your assesment of the situation would be valid in Saudi Arabia. However, the government of Kyrgystan has no love for Muslims either. Like all the post-Soviet governments in Central Asia it derives from a tradition of anti-religion, and viewing Muslim as an ethnic and not a religious designation.
The fact of the matter is that although this government dislikes Christians, its main goal is to limit the influence of Muslim groups in the nation. They dislike all religion, Christian, Muslim or anything else.
Your assesment of the situation would be valid in Saudi Arabia. However, the government of Kyrgystan has no love for Muslims either. Like all the post-Soviet governments in Central Asia it derives from a tradition of anti-religion, and viewing Muslim as an ethnic and not a religious designation.
The fact of the matter is that although this government dislikes Christians, its main goal is to limit the influence of Muslim groups in the nation. They dislike all religion, Christian, Muslim or anything else.
Shortsighted Bob | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Bob, Bob, Bob. So you're the tyrant who would limit Free Speech in groups.
You'd prefer to ban all religions rather than taking a chance that people
can choose their religious futures. And while you're at it throw in
limiting children's participation in religious activity. Wow, how
shortsighted you are!
in the fray | 10:07 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Excuse me? I live in Kyrgyzstan. 9:16 contributor is correct in saying that
the gov. wants to limit radical Islam but don't be deluded. The men of
parliament are VERY aware that any ethnic Kyrgyz who choose to make a choice of
belief other than Islam will be subject to humiliation, intimidation, and
physical and economic abuse. Some have been killed for their faith (outside of
the "correct" one). Had a parliamentary deputy voted against that
bill (it was passed unanimously) they would have been run out on a rail. This
law is intended solely to stop the rise of evangelicals and non-muslim
persuasions from recruiting away from the oppressive, controlling, misogynistic
power-brokers in the village and urban mosques.
While the atheistic indoctrinations of the Soviets did their job and made the Kyrgyz version of Islam a comic charicature of the Quran, they are still ethnically Muslim and will do everything in their power to make sure they and their countrymen remain so.
While the atheistic indoctrinations of the Soviets did their job and made the Kyrgyz version of Islam a comic charicature of the Quran, they are still ethnically Muslim and will do everything in their power to make sure they and their countrymen remain so.
Moracle | 11:09 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
In General Conference, President Monson asked members of the Church to pray for
nations of the world that do not (now) open their doors to the Church and the
preaching of the Gospel, will do so.
As I read this report, I wondered how many of us have followed his prophetic admonition and foresight?
Maybe we need to get on our knees, and petition the Lord on behalf of the people of Kyrgyzstan, before it's much too late!? Are we following the prophet?
As I read this report, I wondered how many of us have followed his prophetic admonition and foresight?
Maybe we need to get on our knees, and petition the Lord on behalf of the people of Kyrgyzstan, before it's much too late!? Are we following the prophet?
Stewart | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Some like Bob and a few other atheists here believe that Christianity somehow is
the cause of a closed mind. It appears that in this case Islam is the religion
of fear and of a closed mind. If you can prevent specific religious thought then
you can prevent political thought as well. Freedom of thought and freedom of
speech go hand in hand.
kyrgyz | 11:20 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
all,
very interesting thoughts. i am a kg citizen studying in the US. what is my gov't trying to do is do something about the rising islamic radicals (and other ones as well). the gov't is just trying to find SOME solution to the problem with religious radicals (including korean and christian churches that do very suspicious and illegal activities). i have lived there all my life, and i saw how the religious situation and atmosphere changed after the collapse of the USSR. personally, i'd rather have the anti-religion regime because that way i would not at least worry about my kids joining islamic, korean or some other religious radicals. i mean it is getting that dangerous. never in my life have i see so many madrasah in the country. you may want to take a guess what these youngsters are taught there by half-literate teachers who barely read the Quaran in arabic. the problem is no one is controlling these bodies, hence their feeling free to do whatever (read this as teaching kids jihad or holy war) they please. im glad the parliament finally decided to do something about it.
very interesting thoughts. i am a kg citizen studying in the US. what is my gov't trying to do is do something about the rising islamic radicals (and other ones as well). the gov't is just trying to find SOME solution to the problem with religious radicals (including korean and christian churches that do very suspicious and illegal activities). i have lived there all my life, and i saw how the religious situation and atmosphere changed after the collapse of the USSR. personally, i'd rather have the anti-religion regime because that way i would not at least worry about my kids joining islamic, korean or some other religious radicals. i mean it is getting that dangerous. never in my life have i see so many madrasah in the country. you may want to take a guess what these youngsters are taught there by half-literate teachers who barely read the Quaran in arabic. the problem is no one is controlling these bodies, hence their feeling free to do whatever (read this as teaching kids jihad or holy war) they please. im glad the parliament finally decided to do something about it.
Darin W | 12:02 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I find this highly amusing. A government won't sanction your religion! Oh
no! How does it feel?
"Maybe Not" says, "It's not about a religious Us vs. Them -- it's about a government saying Only Us, Not Them."
That's exactly what us gays are unhappy about in California.
"Maybe Not" says, "It's not about a religious Us vs. Them -- it's about a government saying Only Us, Not Them."
That's exactly what us gays are unhappy about in California.
Chad Henson | 12:21 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
"...the country's parliament passed a law that would make it more
difficult for churches to register before they can operate legally..."
HEY -- the passed a law, get over it!
Wasn't this the message a few weeks ago after Prop 8? Cry me a freaking river.
LOL
HEY -- the passed a law, get over it!
Wasn't this the message a few weeks ago after Prop 8? Cry me a freaking river.
LOL
Varlene | 12:42 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Have to agree with Darin and Chad here. Mormon's want tyranny of the
majority after funding most of the fight for prop 8 in California. Then a law
somewhere else may pass and have a negative impact on Mormons and they act like
such the victims. Get over yourself. You oppress here in the USA, and complain
because some back woods previous USSR Republic may not want anything to do with
you? Isn't that just proof that intelligence can be found anywhere?
Not that I expect Mormon's to recognize the hypocrisy of it all, but seriously, give me a break!
Not that I expect Mormon's to recognize the hypocrisy of it all, but seriously, give me a break!
Blue it | 12:55 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
This article does not mention Mormons complaining. It's called a straw man
fallacy when you misrepresent an argument, and then counter that argument, with
faulty logic nonetheless.
Quite a bone to pick ehh?
Quite a bone to pick ehh?
John Pack Lambert | 1:03 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
No one is being oppresed in California. No one is going to jail or will ever
go to jail because of Prop 8. To call it oppression is to misuse the term.
The resident of Kyrgystan is right that the real intent of this law is anti-Christian, not anti-radical Muslim.
The Kygystani is misguided in believing laws like these do anything to halt the spread of radical Islam. Radical Islam will be preached to children. People who at times encorage others to do suicide bombings will have no moral problem breaking this law.
It is the people who respect the laws, such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and some other Christian groups, that will have their ability to operate ended.
The resident of Kyrgystan is right that the real intent of this law is anti-Christian, not anti-radical Muslim.
The Kygystani is misguided in believing laws like these do anything to halt the spread of radical Islam. Radical Islam will be preached to children. People who at times encorage others to do suicide bombings will have no moral problem breaking this law.
It is the people who respect the laws, such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and some other Christian groups, that will have their ability to operate ended.
Maryah | 3:28 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I have just been writing a FHE lesson about the 12th Article of Faith, how We
believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in
obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. I added a section on what we should
do if we think a law is morally wrong. But I have a feeling that the Prophet is
right, and only our prayers can help here from America. Only the people from
Kyrgystani have the right to try to change the law in some way. We can only
pray that the leader's hearts can be changed in some way.
Reason | 3:42 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
After reading all of the listed comments, it becomes easier to understand why
the world is in the state it is. I am LDS, but I am also studying world
religions at this time. I know that my views are different from a significant
portion of the world, and I am willing to recognize that. I have friends that
are gay, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Asian, African American, and just about every
other ethnicity, belief, or religion you can name.
What interests me here, is that Christians, primarily Mormons, are targeted for their narrow-mindedness while there is a real issue at hand. Prop 8 is a passed law, this is the second time that the concept of marriage has been voted on, and been passed defining it as a civil-union between a man and a woman. Even if you consider this discrimination, it is time to move passed this. In Kyrgystan RIGHT NOW, this is an issue. It's time to stop criticizing each other and focus on the issue at hand. In America we believe in freedom of religion, speech, and many other things. It becomes our responsibility now to act in defense of these freedoms for all others.
What interests me here, is that Christians, primarily Mormons, are targeted for their narrow-mindedness while there is a real issue at hand. Prop 8 is a passed law, this is the second time that the concept of marriage has been voted on, and been passed defining it as a civil-union between a man and a woman. Even if you consider this discrimination, it is time to move passed this. In Kyrgystan RIGHT NOW, this is an issue. It's time to stop criticizing each other and focus on the issue at hand. In America we believe in freedom of religion, speech, and many other things. It becomes our responsibility now to act in defense of these freedoms for all others.
Cindy F | 4:19 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Carma -- performing positive actions results in a good condition in one's
experience, whereas a negative action results in a bad effect.
Hold on Mormons -- it's going to be a rough ride, by your own design.
Hold on Mormons -- it's going to be a rough ride, by your own design.
Anonymous | 10:17 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
re Maybe
Bob
Darin W.
Bob
Darin W.
Cats | 7:44 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
How ANYONE could compare this issue to Prop...is ABSURD!!
Silver Momma | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Bob, Varlene, Chad, Darin, and Cindy, do you need a hug? Here's an LDS
grandma who would love to give you some milk and cookies and talk with you about
our differences. Whether you want us to or not, we love you and are your
friends. We just have a difference of opinion on what constitutes marriage. We
are not the only denomination who organized for Prop 8. We are just an easy
target. So be it! We still love you as our brothers and sisters under God.
I find it hard to see a parallel between Prop 8 and what is happening to religion in Kyrgystan. Maybe someone could point out how religious freedom is being curtailed by Prop. 8.
The offer for hugs and milk and cookies is open to all who need them. More hugs are what we need more of all over the world. Just don't attack me like the little animal did to Buddy in "Elf!"
I find it hard to see a parallel between Prop 8 and what is happening to religion in Kyrgystan. Maybe someone could point out how religious freedom is being curtailed by Prop. 8.
The offer for hugs and milk and cookies is open to all who need them. More hugs are what we need more of all over the world. Just don't attack me like the little animal did to Buddy in "Elf!"
Sue | 10:47 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Ah...such is our crazy world...but boy...let a country or a city be in trouble
due to flooding, fires, earthquakes, etc, and the LDS church is one of the first
agencies to provide humanitian assistance. Even the Red Cross contacts the LDS
church for assistance. So my comment to those of you with your ideals against
anything that is good, how much have you donated to ANY humanitian relief
anywhere in the world? And as for the relationship between Prop 8 and Kyrgystan
(there isn't any), at least the people of California had a say so in the
decision. The government (not yet anyway) isn't controlling that.
Besides, look at the voting tally of Prop 8...hmmm...just wasn't Mormons
that voted yes.
Re: Maybe | 2:38 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008
It's not push push push. I don't know any Christian that pushes,
mormon or not. It's concern for other's welfare and happiness. We are
our brothers keeper. We all need each other. We all need to care about each
other. It's called love, dude. True love. I think it's so sad that so
many people don't recognize it, and embrace hate instead.
peaceful lds | 9:01 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008
Mormons are not the only one in this battle for freedom.....there are other
churches there that are doing good. Pray works...it work for my country when
the Government said that Mormons should leave...we the members prayed and their
hearts was soften. Today the church is well respected in and exist in harmony
with the other religions hindus, muslims and christians. We keep the religion
and government separate.
Remember when it comes down to it we all believe in the same GOD. I love my brothers, sisters and families of other religion and they respect mine as well.
For the people of Kyrgystan if the Government sees this as a solution and the people agree....God will stop this law from passing if he feels his work must go on....for every one must acknowledge Christ when he comes again..
Remember when it comes down to it we all believe in the same GOD. I love my brothers, sisters and families of other religion and they respect mine as well.
For the people of Kyrgystan if the Government sees this as a solution and the people agree....God will stop this law from passing if he feels his work must go on....for every one must acknowledge Christ when he comes again..
Free men vs Kings men | 5:54 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008
Government forcing people against their will to do something that limits liberty
is socialsim. Socialism in Swedish textbooks is defined as a lessor degree of
Communism. What is communism's ultimate goal? Control over you, your
beliefs, your thoughts, your liberty, etc... you are forced feed to do as you
are told. When you are told what you can't teach your children then that is
an indicator.
Alma 51: 6-7
6 And those who were desirous that Pahoran should remain chief judge over the land took upon them the name of freemen; and thus was the division among them, for the freemen had sworn or covenanted to maintain their rights and the privileges of their religion by a free government.
7 And it came to pass that this matter of their contention was settled by the voice of the people. And it came to pass that the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen, and Pahoran retained the judgment-seat, which caused much rejoicing among the brethren of Pahoran and also many of the people of liberty, who also put the king-men to silence, that they durst not oppose but were obliged to maintain the cause of freedom.
Alma 51: 6-7
6 And those who were desirous that Pahoran should remain chief judge over the land took upon them the name of freemen; and thus was the division among them, for the freemen had sworn or covenanted to maintain their rights and the privileges of their religion by a free government.
7 And it came to pass that this matter of their contention was settled by the voice of the people. And it came to pass that the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen, and Pahoran retained the judgment-seat, which caused much rejoicing among the brethren of Pahoran and also many of the people of liberty, who also put the king-men to silence, that they durst not oppose but were obliged to maintain the cause of freedom.
carol | 1:38 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008
someone said they raised the bar for their religions to be made legal from 10
members to 100.well lets all pray that they get that 100 and more. why stop at
ten.
Dave U | 8:25 a.m. Nov. 24, 2008
Comment to those who hold religion sacred, There are those out there who just
feed off the negativity given them. We as believers in Christ must, must, stay
focused on being kind & loving to all. Do not forget there are trolls out
there who see anything about religion and then they pounce.
Jerry, friend of Kyrgyz | 2:29 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008
Kyrgyzstanis have fleed to the US for freedom of religion. Many are in
Portland, Seattle, Spokane and many areas of California. Just ask around and
see what they have gone through: the discrimination, fear, dificulty in travel,
etc. Now their family and friends back there are being thretened with more
(legal) descrimination primarily because they are not Muslim; not because they
are radical religious trouble makers. We can pray for Kyrgyzs to be tolerant
and for their leaders. If you can, make others aware of the struggle these
people are undertaking, including those in our government.
Tuheva | 5:45 p.m. June 2, 2009
Je penses que l'glise doit avoir sa place au Kyrgyzstan quelque soit les
difficults qu'elle rencontrera, DIEU sera toujours avec ses enfants pour
pouvoir partager la bonne nouvelle de l'vangile rtablie. Toutes les
personnes des diffrentes confessions religieuses, existantes dans le pays y
compris les saints des derniers jours devront prier DIEU pour qu'un jour
ils seront libres de clbrer leur culte quelqu'en soit l'endroit. Cette
loi que le gouvernement veut adopter c'est un exemple de disrimination
envers les chrtiens du Kyrgyzstan pas seulement les (Mormons) mais tous. Je
penses que DIEU prparer des gens du pays recevoir DIEU et JESUS CHRIST comme
soutient et sauveur du monde. Amen Gloire DIEU.
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