Deseret News | Police take man to hospital following standoff outside LDS Temple in Provo

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Police take man to hospital following standoff outside LDS Temple in Provo

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Concerned | 11:26 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Poor fella.

TexasUT | 11:38 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I hope he goes to see a professional shrink- not his bishop.

Too much stress | 11:49 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

This is yet another example of religion gone wrong.

I went to School in Provo for 2 years and those BYU student wards are a joke. Way to much stress on those kids.
They are just normal kids who are going to make mistakes, I hope that the church learns to help their members and not make them feel like they are outcast because they made a mistake.

Good luck to this guy, I hope that he can figure it out, we have all been there.

Comments continue below

Ken | 11:53 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

The poor guy has a good friend. I can't imagine it would be easy to stick around with someone in that condition who's got a gun, even if you were friends.

Hope he's ok | 11:54 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I sure hope he's ok.

A disciplinary council is not meant to be something that is "against" anyone unless they are unrepentant. And even then if action is taken "against" someone it's actually for the benefit of that person and for the Church as a whole and not something that should cause someone to take action against himself.

People won't understand these things. But from first hand knowledge I felt the exact opposite when action was taken "against" me, and was greatful for the love and support of so many that showed me the greatest love during my darkest hour.

I too hope he can get some professional help and feel better about things soon. It's crummy to feel such a way especially around Christmas.

Re: Too Much Stress | 12:02 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

"We have all been there"? I have never held a gun to my chest claiming I am going to take my own life because I've been disciplined by my church. Did you have a friend present when you held a gun to your chest? Did the police come? What were you disciplined for?

Mark | 12:11 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Love at it's best... Akind friend, a police action that acted admirably. and clerical leaders who have properly and with love....all came together to help.

God bless

No | 12:13 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

It's not "religion gone wrong." It's people gone wrong. What ever happened to taking responsibility for your actions and repenting? It's no one's business what he'd been "disciplined" for. All that means is he was either disfellowshiped or excommunicated. It's not like they whipped him a hundred times and sent him on his way. He can totally work his way back if he so chooses. Or not. The choice is his. And it's called REPENTANCE, and it's a GOOD thing.

Wow: Empathy much? | 12:17 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

to the guy complaining about the empathetic responses here: I'm not sure what "church" you attend, but in Christian churches (like the LDS) the example and commandment is to show love and compassion . . . responses like yours are likely the precise kind of thing that pushed this poor soul too far . . . please, please think before you type something like that out.

Elizabeth | 12:19 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

This guy is nuts. I agree with some of the comments here--the BYU atmosphere gets a little out of control and people take things WAY too seriously. Religion is serious, but to want to kill yourself because of Church discipline? Yikes.

There needs to be more support from bishops and letting young people know that they will make mistakes but it's not the end of the world.

Observer | 12:19 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Have any of you ever heard the phrase "There, but for the grace of God, go I"? Many of you are acting like you are above this young man. I truly hope that none of you ever have difficulties come upon you. Not a single one of us knows what is going on in this young man's life, and yet some of you are passing some pretty harsh judgement on him. All I can say is that I hope he has some good people in his life who can help him through the difficulties he is facing. Don't bother replying if you are just going to accuse me of judging you - I already know that. It's just that I am trying to have compassion for a young man with some pretty serious issues.

SLC | 12:19 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

It is amazing that there are not more incidents like this one when people are led to live a life too void of reality. Religion needs to be policed by an objective rule of law by state and federal authority.

Bishop Schmishop! | 12:21 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I agree with you TexasUT. Its amazing how many people rely on the advice of an UNLICENSED Bishop. Personally I have heard of Bishops handling serious situations WRONG!!
I hope this guy goes and gets the REAL help he needs.

Re: No | 12:23 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Gee, you make turning a new leaf sound so...."GOOD".

California | 12:29 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Too many of the young men in the church are treated too harshly. Action yes but harsh treatement is counter productive. Most will just drop away. Most courts are surprised the the young men never return and then the ward spends the rest of the man's life trying to bring him back. A more loving and patient approach in the beginning ends in a better result for all.

To SLC | 12:19 | 12:36 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Yeah, that's all we need! Government bureaucrats policing what we believe. There's a great idea!

Do you think a platoon of bureaucrats would have done a better job of helping this poor mope than the commendable work his friend and the police did?

It never ceases to amaze me how diconnected from reality you liberals are.

InAz | 12:40 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Seems like some people have 'heard' many things about the Church....that's how misinformation gets spread. I pray for this young man and his family. I hope he can get the help he needs.

Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I had Church action taken against me when I got myself into some serious spiritual trouble. It was my mistake, not the Church's. These proceedings are intended to help people turn their life around and repent. That's what it did for me. This guy needs help and he's getting it.

This sort of thing can be really devastating as it was for me, but it was the thing that helped me turn my life around, get help and stop making self-destructive choices. I'm actually grateful it happened. Now I am a member in good standing with a current recommend.

The Church does these things with love and not hate or cruelty. I know this from personal experience. This young man will come to know this in time if he doesn't already. I just hope all you bloggers will realize it.

Take it from one who has personal experience with this. It will actually help this young man to turn his life around. The Church will reach out to him in love and do everything possible to help him recover and come back to full fellowship.

Court of Love? | 12:45 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I don't think so. It is the standard church-based guilt trip taken to an extreme. From the outside looking in, it's easy to see how churches use guilt and fear to get their members to continue to contribute and follow all of the guidelines. Unfortunately, excess guilt can lead to mental health problems including depression and even suicide.

This is particularly true for the LDS church which has a high expectation of individual perfection and/or overcoming your own weaknesses and downplays the role of Christ and grace, combined with a lay leadership with no formal training in counseling.

billy | 12:45 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Been there a couple of times, still love the bishops I had at the time. I never felt they were doing it out of jugemental anger or because they didn't care for me, they did, but maybe I just had two great bishops. I thank them here today. Good luck to the lad mentioned here!!!!

Robo | 12:46 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I don't know what many of you think church discipline is, but having been involved in dozens of disciplinary councils over the past 10 years at both the stake and ward level I think I have a pretty good idea. They are not punishment or punitive, they are reformative. They are generally only held for people who have been through the temple and/or are reasonably well seasoned in the church. They also GENERALLY occur as a response to a voluntary confession although not always. Many times the result of a discipinary council is formal probation. Disfellowshipment occurs less and excommunication the least common outcome. Conditions placed generally involve limiting some of the participative privileges in the church such as attending the temple, partaking of the sacrament, holding a calling, etc while the person continues to council with the bishop or stake president as they make their way back from the mistake. I'm currently a councilor in a college ward bishopric and I will assure you that mercy rules abundantly, that we understand mistakes are made, and are only desirous to help them overcome their mistake which does result in greater peace and happiness.

Help is available | 12:55 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I don't know what Bishops you are talking about, but the bishops I served with (not in Utah) were quick to recognize when professional help was needed to counsel with an individual. Each one had the name and numbers of licensed therapist that they referred people to. Fast offering funds were used to pay the bill when the patient couldn't pay. These people were helped in a confidential and loving way. The only reason I was aware of referrals to therapist was because I was the second signature on the check that paid the therapist. I never knew what the issues were, but I observed each of these people become much happier and more self-confident over time.
So don't be afraid to go to your bishop. They can help.

Gus | 12:56 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Some of you assume he's a BYU student caving to the pressures that BYU places on students. That's a poor judgment to make because nowhere in the article does it state that this young man attends BYU. He could attend UVU, the hair college, the massage college, or he could be done with school altogether and working/living near Provo.

Give the guy a break and don't be too quick to judge a situation you know little about.

Au contraire | 12:57 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

"Take it from one who has personal experience with this. It will actually help this young man to turn his life around. The Church will reach out to him in love and do everything possible to help him recover and come back to full fellowship."

My father went through this experience several years ago, after serving in a Bishopric and High-Council. His experience was that all of the former associates from the church completely shunned him, even as he tried to come back and get re-baptized. He never had any home teachers assigned to him and no one from the ward reached out to him either.

He eventually gave up and quite trying to associate with an organization that had rejected him. He recently re-married and asked one of his former best friends (now a Bishop) to oversee his civil marriage ceremony. The friend turned him down because my father didn't live in his Ward. I guess Ward boundaries are more important than a friendship which had lasted over 20 years before the "court of love"

J W Goethe | 1:03 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Let's see. We know this guy has been disciplined in some form by the Church. We don't know what his transgression was. We don't know who else was involved. We don't know whether it was a bishop or a stake president who made the decision. We don't even know exactly what the decision was. We don't know what the young man's attitude was.

And yet, here we have several numbskull commenters pontificating on this story as if they have even the slightest clue about it.

Sure. Let's just blame the Church. That will really help him solve his problem.

Svoboda | 1:07 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Robo has explained it correctly. I appreciate his effort to spell it all out.

So, let's all take a deep breath, and start planting flowers instead of pulling weeds.

Anonymous | 1:21 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Bishops are not actually supposed to perform marriages for people not in their ward.

To Au contraire: I am having a very difficult time believing what you have said. I have been excommunicated and was totally embraced with love. Sometimes people get alienated due to guilt or anger instead of just humbly accepting it and getting their life back together. Believe me, if the Church excommunicates someone, it is because that person has done someting to merit it. The Church only does this under specific circumstances and they don't do it with any glee.

Sometimes people feel really humiliated and don't have the courage to come back. That is really sad, but it is on the individual to make that choice. The Church will do everything possible to help ANYONE who wants to come back. But, that person needs to make the effort to repent and go through the steps necessary to get back.

I'm sorry your father had a bad experience, but I don't believe ANYONE would hesitate to help him if he really wants to come back.

My excommunication saved me...But, I had to have the humility to see it.

Dan | 1:25 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I have been involved in several disciplinary councils on the Ward as well as on the Stake level. These councils are designed to help and encourage someone who has made some serious mistakes understand the seriousness of what was been done and make amends (repent) for what was done and forsake it (not repeat it) which helps them return to full fellowship. Encouragement and love is used to assist the individual as they meet with their leaders.
In all the disciplinary councils that I have participated in, I do not remember one where the individual left angry or upset. In each of these cases the individuals left with a clear understanding of steps needed to be taken. None of these ever left without feeling a tremendous amount of kindness and love from leaders.

Meandmine | 1:26 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Court of Love?: you are so wrong as to be ridiculous. You have no idea or knowledge of what you speak. You do not understand the LDS Church, its doctrines or it practices. Take some time to actually learn something before you spout off about it.

Do any of you here actually know what it is to be an LDS Bishop? Do you have any idead of what that Bishop may have already done or attempled to do to help this young man? Do any of you know whether that Bishop offerred or attempted to get professional help for this young man? Isn't this young man responsible for his actions and the consequences of those actions? If you understood how the LDS Church's disciplinary counsels you would understand that they are designed to help a person repent, correct and improve their life.

Kenny | 1:27 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I also concur with Robo. I have participated in a few of these councils and they are among the most powerful loving, spriritual experiences of my life. The L.D.S. church is a big church and there are certainly cases that could probably have been mishandled.

For those of you who like to judge without knowledge, church discipline usually involves witholding certain privelidges such as holding church callings. Shunning or humuliation are not part of the program.

Cats | 1:29 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I know someone who was excommunicated a few years ago. He had served in a bishopric and high council. He lived in a small town in Utah and EVERYONE in town knew all about. He had an affair with someone who worked in his building and EVERYONE knew.

Instead of blaming the Church for what happened, he took it like a man and worked his way back. He told me that EVERYONE in his small town was totally supportive and loving to him. Did he suffer? Of course he did. He was humiliated and felt terrible about what he had done to his wife and his family.

But, guess what? Today, he is a member in full fellowship with a current recommend. He and his wife have gotten remarried to each other and their family is intact again. He is grateful that he had a chance to stop what he was doing, turn his life around and get back in the Church.

This guy was headed down a destructive path. The excommunication helped me to stop that and get his life back. He says it was a great blessing to him.

Good call - police/friend | 1:35 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

and good explanations of LDS process by a couple of people. The several people I've known who left church association after these events weren't telling their families or friends the full details of their circumstances as known or even confessed by themselves in private councils, it would have been much to socially shocking to family/friends etc. And interestingly, each of them brought the events in which they'd engaged to church leader's attention themselves. Go figure.

JB | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

TO SLC: Why would the government ever have any role whatsoever in regulating religion in the United States of America? Some people want it both ways, no religion in public and no religion in private either.

Shame on you.

James | 1:37 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Robo,

for the most part you are correct but I was personally involved in one disciplinary council where the Stake President involved was completely out of order and took it upon himself to try to destroy the life of one poor member. Unfortunately the member ended up leaving the church. Fortunately the Stake President was released and Disfellowshipped. Not all members of the church are honorable people and sometimes that includes Bishops, Stake Presidents and their councilors.

Oh man! | 1:41 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

This stupid church cannot get a break lately!

For the one true church, sure is getting some bad press.

They are wannabe's | 1:43 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

J W Goethe,

"Let's see. We know this guy has been disciplined in some form by the Church. We don't know what his transgression was. We don't know who else was involved. We don't know whether it was a bishop or a stake president who made the decision. We don't even know exactly what the decision was. We don't know what the young man's attitude was."

Yet so many are quick to criticize the Church for taking disciplinary action. For all we know he may have been a sexual predator. There are only a few sins that warrant official Church discipline and none of them are minor and almost all of them involve others.

"And yet, here we have several numbskull commenters pontificating on this story as if they have even the slightest clue about it."

It makes them feel important. They get off on it and they can go home after work feeling like they are sombody important instead of the loser accountant who works 9 to 5 and will never amount to anything in life.

"Sure. Let's just blame the Church. That will really help him solve his problem."

They don't care about him. They only use him.

Why should we believe you... | 1:47 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

James,

Why should we believe you when you when you claim to have been part of a disciplinary council but can't even spell counselor.

If you were part of a Church disciplinary council or court you would know that Counselor is spelled Counselor and not Councilor.

Strangite | 1:53 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I remember my 'Court of Love'. I remember waiting in the hallway for the decision of the SP & HC and hearing the hearty laughter beyond the door.
The church doesn't care about individuals, only the public facade of the church.

B Rand | 1:54 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

RE: OH man! 1:41 pm

As a member of 'this stupid church' I'd appreciate a little more respect shown towards it. Members of the LDS religion, as in any religion, are not perfect. If they were, they wouldn't need religion at all. Who are you to call somebody's elses church stupid? Jesus was the Christ and he received "bad press" his entire life; that doesn't mean he wasn't Christ... Be a little more respectful towards things you don't know much about.

Only Fooling Themselves | 1:55 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Thank HEAVEN this young man had a good LDS friend at his side, and not one of these surly church haters.

Instead of the time, understanding and compassion his friend obviously gave him, this crowd would have probably made the guy feel so resentful of the church who knows how this would have ended.

Amazingly, Church bashers act as if they are in possession of a brilliant insight that believers are not privy to.

Here's a news flash for Church critics: we faithful, who spend countless hours in service of the Church and its people, are even more aware than you are that the Church has its problems. Seriously, we have stories that would send you rabid.

Your potshots aren't telling us anything new about our church, just something about you.

Of course the church is not perfect, no organization with man involved can be, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. And that doesn't mean the vast majority of its faithful aren't benefited.

Besides, mankind will always benefit more from compassion and service than from criticism and fault finding.

Again, thank goodness this young man had a compassionate friend, not a critical one.

Anonymous | 1:55 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

before you bash the church for its "courts of love", consider that possibly this young man was feeling the deep remorse and shame people should feel if their actions take them to a church court. Perhaps his overhwelming sense of guilt, or realization of a long path back caused him to become more despondent than many of us can comprehend. What is wonderful is the friend's actions and love and police who were patient.

disfellowshiped | 1:55 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I am sad to hear some feel the church court is a bad thing and even sadder to hear that people are not always supportive of people in the situation of finding themselves disfellowshiped or excommunicated. I went through a church court and even though it was a painfull thing for me - It is the reason I was able to turn my life around. I was lovingly supported by the members and family. Not every one reacts the same and yes, some Bishops are clueless what to do (often because of inexperience). I have have worked with a couple dozen Bishops and overall I can honestly say they are good people trying to do their best. It is painful to hear people making generalizations because they had a bad experience (or heard of a bad experience). No human is perfect and we never will be as long as we are flesh and blood.

re: Why should we believe you.. | 2:01 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Spelling something correctly is not directly related to personal experience. Some of us just have a difficult time spelling things - it doesn't mean we don't know what we are talking about - it only means we haven't spelled that word enough to know how it is spelled.

Barbara | 2:05 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

One Thing I do Know Is All LDS Will go to Hell.
It says have no other gods before me. Man can not be gods.You have to be born again..The LDS do not belive in Jesus Christ as the father..

reality | 2:06 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Anytime I hear about someone with a gun, I'm always sad to hear that they didn't use it. Save us all the time and money. You KNOW that Joe Taxpayer will end up with the bill.

joseph's myth postmormon.com | 2:07 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Unfortunately just another broken mind probably due in part to the careful and deliberate actions taken by The Church Of Jesus Christ OLDS and their bad and faulty practices.

me | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Sorry "why should we believe you." But councilor can be spelled both ways, and either is correct. (I know -- I'm an editor.)

he was clearly upset | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

This person may have a mental health illness. so hold your judgments.

Anonymous | 2:14 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Au contraire,

You're an uneducated idiot. But it must be fun to make up abuse and ill-treatment facts--are you a Utes fan?

Susie Q | 2:19 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

This is tragic. Obviously, in this case the "court of love" was not a good thing or a positive experience. For those that have had positive experiences with them, that is great, I am happy for you. However, don't discount this man's experiences because they differ from your own. His experience was so bad he wanted to end his life.

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