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Lee Benson: BYU president is alumnus of red; Utah's graduated blue
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Sources | 4:19 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The fact that the federal government sent anti mormon judges into Utah
(specifically Salt Lake City)during the 1870's through the early
1900's which then attracted an "anti LDS contingency" at the
University is evident in the actually diaries of many of the first leaders of
the church. Wilford Woodruff, James E Talmage, John A Widstoe etcetera. The
legislature (predominantly mormon) fought with the university in those times
because they wanted to bash the church and yet still get flush tax money from
the state whose dominant religion it wanted to bash. They persecuted the
leaders of the church from their university chairs. My sources are the actually
leaders of the church from the actual time. Their writings are in their
biographies. I have nothing against the U. It is what it is... a solid state
school for Utah with solid graduate programs. All I said is that it isn't
what Brigham Young intended to start when he started the University of Deseret.
A spiritual/secular mixture similar to what Joseph Smith started in
Kirtland/Nauvoo and which ideas Brigham Young carried to the frontier west. My
opinion as a surgeon is that Utahns think too highly of their medical school....
Loved... | 4:29 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
...the article. I loved the "original' Cecil! That made me chuckle.
I do have to say one thing. Pres. Samuelson said, "The work at BYU is a vital part of the work of the Lord." He is a General Authority remember. To those LDS fans who seriously HATE BYU, think about the work this GA is describing, and see if you can still HATE. If you can, that's just sad.
re: Cats. I know just what you're trying to say. People who haven't gone to BYU would never understand. For some BYU is the place, and for others it isn't. I wouldn't have wanted to go anywhere else. It's an awesome school and college is what you make it. Don't listen to anyone who isn't understanding you. Let people be swallowed up in their hate, they have to live in hate, so let them.
I do have to say one thing. Pres. Samuelson said, "The work at BYU is a vital part of the work of the Lord." He is a General Authority remember. To those LDS fans who seriously HATE BYU, think about the work this GA is describing, and see if you can still HATE. If you can, that's just sad.
re: Cats. I know just what you're trying to say. People who haven't gone to BYU would never understand. For some BYU is the place, and for others it isn't. I wouldn't have wanted to go anywhere else. It's an awesome school and college is what you make it. Don't listen to anyone who isn't understanding you. Let people be swallowed up in their hate, they have to live in hate, so let them.
bakerb | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The Vegas Line on the game is 4 points. Since conventional wisdom accounts 3.5
points for the home field avantage, the experts must not see much difference
between these two teams.
It should be a fun game!
If you are so certain who will win, you should put some $$$ on it. Otherwise, you are lying to yourself (and us).
The truth is, if we are fans of either team, we are all very nervous about this outcome.
May the best team win... You know, the LORD'S TEAM!
It should be a fun game!
If you are so certain who will win, you should put some $$$ on it. Otherwise, you are lying to yourself (and us).
The truth is, if we are fans of either team, we are all very nervous about this outcome.
May the best team win... You know, the LORD'S TEAM!
Comments continue below
and.... | 4:42 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Harline is STILL open.
TCU Fan | 5:07 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Go BYU!! Boise State loses and BYU goes to Fiesta!! And let the ruckus begin
since we beat the PANTS off the Cougars.
Either way, show us the money.
Either way, show us the money.
BSU FAN | 5:20 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I This will be the one week I will be rooting for the cougars...heard the
mountain west is inviting BSU to join next year...anyone know if this is true?
NO BSU | 5:30 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The Blue Carpet is an abomination to college football. If they want to paly in
the MWC they need to get some traditional turf. BSU in the MWC...what would
they do with a tougher schedule all the time not just once a season?
Harline is still open...to anybody that would give him a job and remember that he caught a lucky pass...looks good on a resume.
Harline is still open...to anybody that would give him a job and remember that he caught a lucky pass...looks good on a resume.
Not the Lord's team | 5:55 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
If God really wanted BYU to win, they'd be national champions in every
sport, every year, BCS be darned. They aren't so clearly they don't
have divine providence on their side.
Re: TCU Fan 5:07PM | 5:56 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Would you not prefer Utah going to BCS bowl --after Utah defeated TCU and so
deserved BCS
(the money is the same).
(the money is the same).
Careful what you wish for | 6:22 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
ESPN just came out w/ it's latest Bowl predictions. They have the UTES in
the SUGAR BOWL. That's the good news for Utes fans. The bad news is they
won't be put up against a pansie ACC winner this year, but instead against
ALABAMA!!! Prepare to become the next Hawaii Ute fans!! (With that said,
I'd rather have the Cougs in that situation than in Vegas again. Either
one of this state's team would get THROTTLED by Alabama.
BSU Fan | 6:23 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
BSU will not be changing the turf...it's almost iconic at this point. The
fans like it too much. As for a tougher schedule...It seems to me that BSU is
12-0 vs mountain west teams...not just the bottom dwellers too. I agree the
mountain west is a notch up in the pecking order or conferences.
BCS...TCU/UTAH | 6:35 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Utah hardly defeated TCU. TCU missed 2 field goals that should have been
gimme's. TCU defeated themselves. That game was disgusting to
watch...neither team looked like they deserved to play in a BCS game.
Re: Beck Crying | 6:43 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Beck is crying because he has a splinter from riding the pine. Somebody get him
some tweezers please. Its breaking my heart.
Big Ten University Professor | 6:56 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
To post at 1:57 regarding my post at 1:23, thanks for your comments. I like
your ideas concerning scholarship reform. Also, it is clear that you have an
understanding of the demands placed on athletes. They are clearly not served
well in their efforts to get an education, and those that don't go onto
professional sports (very low single digit percentage) are not served well in
life. My son was a division 1 athlete and outstanding student at an SEC school,
and his experience reinforced my concerns about college athletics. Major
reforms, at the least is needed. It makes little sense for institutions of
learning to sponsor athletic teams.
Big Ten University Professor | 6:58 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
To post at 3:41 I wish I could get my institution to drop sports. As you would
imagine there is tremendous opposition, particularly from alumni. The
university president, at the urging of some faculty, once proposed that freshman
should be ineligible for athletics so that they could focus on academics early
in their college education, and thus get off to a strong academic start. This
proposal created a huge backlash against the president by many alumni, with the
football coach urging that the president be fired. The president had to back
down from his position. The inmates are truly running the asylum. Regarding
getting rid of fine arts, philosophy, etc., I don't see your logic here and
and I don't see how my supporting dropping athletics has anything to do
with these disiplines. Also, where are the data that college athletics helps
people to understand each other? A quick perusal of the posts regarding the
BYU/Utah football game argues that athletic competition engenders animosity
among fanatics. Finally, I would be happy drop the "Big 10" moniker,
but you should note that conference affiliates have other ties beyond athletics.
Re: a Daughter's Father | 7:05 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I am an LDS UTE grad (BS MSE '86).
In all my classes at the U, I only had one where the prof openly showed an anti-LDS bias... he was the chairman of the Economics department and his Econ 121 class was disgusting, but he did not ask who were LDS. He did use his lectures as his personal diatribe time to belittle the LDS church, capitalism, conservatism, etc. as much as he could. As you can tell, I still despise the creep. But, that was the only instance in my career there, and I still love the "U"!
GO UTES!!!
U 28
Y 23
PS California Cougar: That was a reallllly sickening attempt at humor, I hope your kids end up going to the U!
In all my classes at the U, I only had one where the prof openly showed an anti-LDS bias... he was the chairman of the Economics department and his Econ 121 class was disgusting, but he did not ask who were LDS. He did use his lectures as his personal diatribe time to belittle the LDS church, capitalism, conservatism, etc. as much as he could. As you can tell, I still despise the creep. But, that was the only instance in my career there, and I still love the "U"!
GO UTES!!!
U 28
Y 23
PS California Cougar: That was a reallllly sickening attempt at humor, I hope your kids end up going to the U!
Gozer | 7:22 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Hey ute grad, can I get some fries with my burger?
bakerb | 7:41 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Big Ten Prof,
I don't think you are going to find much support for your philosophy on this Forum.
I'm sorry that your Son had a negative experience as a Student-Athlete. However, athletics provides many students an opportunity to attend a presitigious University (like most Big 10 Schools) that normally would not admit them, or would be beyond their means without a Scholarship.
All those Violinists, Actors, etc... get scholarships too. The Football Team is actually profitable and provides funding for other programs.
I believe in education. But there are many valuable lessons to be learned in athletics, in the Military, working for McDonalds, etc... Our society cannot function if everyone is a Professor.
I don't think you are going to find much support for your philosophy on this Forum.
I'm sorry that your Son had a negative experience as a Student-Athlete. However, athletics provides many students an opportunity to attend a presitigious University (like most Big 10 Schools) that normally would not admit them, or would be beyond their means without a Scholarship.
All those Violinists, Actors, etc... get scholarships too. The Football Team is actually profitable and provides funding for other programs.
I believe in education. But there are many valuable lessons to be learned in athletics, in the Military, working for McDonalds, etc... Our society cannot function if everyone is a Professor.
re: School of the prophets | 8:13 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Way to spin history, but you got it wrong! Let's start with the fact that
U's first President was President from 1869-1892. He was none other than a
Mormon, and the University was run by Elder Talmage close to the end of the 19th
century, and Elder Widtsoe in the early 20th century. The U has also had plenty
of Mormon Presidents in recent history. James Fletcher, Bernie Machen, and
Michael Young are some recent examples. The U is Brigham Young's
University and BYU was just named for him.
re: Cats | 8:24 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I like the Y, but I dislike the alumni that have the "holier than
thou" attitude. Did you go to institute? You know those that attend
institute at the U go because they want to as compared to taking religion
because it is a requirement.
Big Ten Professor | 8:50 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Bakerb,
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that there is value in many life experiences and I am not suggesting that everyone be a professor. However, at universities, education should come before athletics. The cart is way before the horse. It is a fallacy that athletic money goes to anything other than athletics. In fact, contributions to the athletic departments takes away from other programs. I realize that I will not find much support for my position, but my position is not without merit.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that there is value in many life experiences and I am not suggesting that everyone be a professor. However, at universities, education should come before athletics. The cart is way before the horse. It is a fallacy that athletic money goes to anything other than athletics. In fact, contributions to the athletic departments takes away from other programs. I realize that I will not find much support for my position, but my position is not without merit.
Go Yougars, er, Cutes | 8:55 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Both schools are great schools. Instead of jostling over which is best, we
should be working together, using our unique strengths, to make the world a
better place.
Hey, wait a minute. If you look at what really goes on between the schools, instead of listening to stereotypes and partisans, you'll see that the two schools do work together, do benefit each other, and do respect and support each other.
Again, they are both great schools, and nothing like the caricatures as which they are often described. The state, and the world, are better places because both exist.
Hey, wait a minute. If you look at what really goes on between the schools, instead of listening to stereotypes and partisans, you'll see that the two schools do work together, do benefit each other, and do respect and support each other.
Again, they are both great schools, and nothing like the caricatures as which they are often described. The state, and the world, are better places because both exist.
re: Sources | 8:55 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Funny how that could happen under Mormon Presidents of the U. I don't
doubt that they allowed free discussion, and I don't doubt that there were
some anti-Mormon professors, but you're taking a few examples and making
them look like it prevails. I can do the same with the Y. I remember an
instance in the news a decade or two back when the Y was thinking about altering
a picture or sculpture of Brigham Young by removing his beard to avoid giving
the student body ideas. I also understood from my LDS fraternity brothers that
BYU would not permit the LDS fraternity because it was a secret society.
Interestingly Ricks college would. I don't blame the Y for this, but there
are extremes at both schools.
re: Loved | 8:58 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I like BYU. I even cheer for it when it doesn't play the U. I even have a
son going to it. It's much more affordable than out of state tuition.
That said, I'm a Ute fan. I don't appreciate the U fans that hate the
Y, but I really am disgusted by the Y fans that hate the U. Especially the
"holier than thou" fans!
re: bakerb | 9:01 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The Lord's team will always win. Obviously neither Utah or BYU fall under
than definition!
re: Careful what you wish for | 9:11 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I have no fear of Alabama. The SEC isn't that hot this year. Georgia has
a win over one ranked team (LSU). Alabama has two wins over ranked teams
(Georgia and LSU). Alabama struggled against Mississippi, Kentucky and LSU.
LSU has no wins against a ranked team, and almost lost to TROY! Even Florida
only has two wins against ranked teams (LSU and Georgia). By the way, Florida
lost to unranked Mississippi, and had a closer game against Tennessee than it
did against Georgia and Tenn.
Utah can beat Alabama, and the Big East champ, or the ACC champ. They have probably already beaten the Pac 10 champ!
Utah can beat Alabama, and the Big East champ, or the ACC champ. They have probably already beaten the Pac 10 champ!
Re: A daughter's father | 9:15 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I am U Alumni and I was U student for 5 years. I had not encounter any of U
prof. made mean comment on any religion either LDS, Christian, Buddha, muslim,
hindu etc. Probably some professors challenge us with rhetoric question to start
interesting and simulation conversation. Some professors will start conversation
not with the religion topic but with other topic such as weather or maybe with
phrase such as � How but Utes last Saturday?". The
reason is too weak to quit the U.
Your daughter must have some other serious problem by quiting U with full scholarship. You better ask her before its too late.
Your daughter must have some other serious problem by quiting U with full scholarship. You better ask her before its too late.
re: BCS...TCU/UTAH | 9:16 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Please! That game was close because they were both similar in talent. The U
had opportunities to score, just like TCU had opportunities with the field
goals. TCU has the best defense in the nation. I think Utah could've won
by a better margin because it had its own screw ups like TCU had the missed
field goals. TCU has won every other game, and Utah has won all its games. For
all those that think Utah is overranked, they've won two ranked teams.
That's just a good as Florida and Alabama, and better than Georgia, Ohio
State, and a multitude of teams in the rankings! It will soon be 3 ranked
teams!
Re: Re: Cats | 9:16 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
This is actually for both "Cats" and "Re: Cats"
I think by making broad generalizations about both BYU and the U, you are depriving graduates of both schools of respect they deserve.
Making the sports rivalry into something of a debate on the morals at each school is ridiculous.
LDS people who choose to go to BYU are not spiritual weaklings who need coddling--ask one of the general authorities who graduated from the Y.BYU offers a unique learning opportunity that melds secular and spiritual learning, which I enjoy.
By the same token, however, LDS people who choose to go to the U--or any other secular institution, for that matter--are not less spiritual for wanting to attend a school other than BYU. It's always a choice. Until the prophet tells us we're supposed to go to BYU or another Church-sponsored schools, I will continue to respect people's choice in the institution of higher learning that they choose.
I would just like the same respect for my choice to attend BYU--GO COUGS!
I think by making broad generalizations about both BYU and the U, you are depriving graduates of both schools of respect they deserve.
Making the sports rivalry into something of a debate on the morals at each school is ridiculous.
LDS people who choose to go to BYU are not spiritual weaklings who need coddling--ask one of the general authorities who graduated from the Y.BYU offers a unique learning opportunity that melds secular and spiritual learning, which I enjoy.
By the same token, however, LDS people who choose to go to the U--or any other secular institution, for that matter--are not less spiritual for wanting to attend a school other than BYU. It's always a choice. Until the prophet tells us we're supposed to go to BYU or another Church-sponsored schools, I will continue to respect people's choice in the institution of higher learning that they choose.
I would just like the same respect for my choice to attend BYU--GO COUGS!
re: Gozer | 9:21 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Sure, but I'm the owner. Let me get one of my employees, but be easy on
him, he just graduated from the Y, and is just learning the ropes. We got him
manning the cash register. Maybe he will break into management if he follows
the tutelage of our assistant manager who just graduated from the U.
Anonymous | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008
"LDS people who choose to go to BYU are not spiritual weaklings who need
coddling..."
Yeah, right! Tell that to your "nanny" school administrators. Or those "facial hair" gestapo enforcers skulking around the library. In order to renew your required annual ecclesiastical endorsement, students must have a minimum religious service attendance rate of 80%....and those attendance rolls are monitored. Students are NOT held to any self-policing "honor" system in THIS regard. BYU students need coddling.
"I would just like the same respect for my choice to attend BYU"
You don't "get" respect. You "EARN" it. Merely deciding to attend Utah, BYU, or any other institution doesn't entitle anyone to special deference.
Yeah, right! Tell that to your "nanny" school administrators. Or those "facial hair" gestapo enforcers skulking around the library. In order to renew your required annual ecclesiastical endorsement, students must have a minimum religious service attendance rate of 80%....and those attendance rolls are monitored. Students are NOT held to any self-policing "honor" system in THIS regard. BYU students need coddling.
"I would just like the same respect for my choice to attend BYU"
You don't "get" respect. You "EARN" it. Merely deciding to attend Utah, BYU, or any other institution doesn't entitle anyone to special deference.
Beck weeping | 3:38 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008
can you all just imagine how hard Beck would've wept and blubbered had he
been the qb when the "Quest for Perfection" came to a screeching halt?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! The Quest will always be one of my favorite things to mention
to arrogant cougar fans through eternity!!! Quest T-shirts NOW available in
RED!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
BYU/Utah? | 4:31 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008
Will he goe back and teach at the U as a professor after he is done being Pres.
@ BYU or will he stay with BYU Go Red/Blue You decide, What are his plans
after being Pres. at BYU?
On the Hill | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008
Alot of my friends have gone to BYU, Alot of my friends have gonr to the U, I
think that they are both really good schools, I think is fun to hear my friends
compare about the 2 Schools, The U has a good Medical Program, and BYU has
the best Chocolate Milk, I took a pole online about who they thought would win,
on Saturday, and 80%the U & 20% BYU. I still have to like my friends where
ever they go to school.
Re: Big 10 Univ. Prof. | 5:20 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008
This is about 2 days after your latest post, but I just want to say I appreciate
your courage and thoughtful ideas on this issue. Because so many of these posts
are back-and-forth fan rants, it is refreshing to hear some thoughts that get to
the real heart of the troubled collegiate athletics scene.
I read some, but hardly all, of the news items related to local collegiate athletics because I enjoy sports and believe they have their place in our society. However, when carried to the extreme (which nearly always happens in "rivalry" situations), they threaten to tarnish the credibility of higher educational institutions and negatively impact society as a whole.
I hope there are other individuals/fans who will be willing to post views that promote civility and encourage perspective on the often volatile world of intercollegiate athletics.
I read some, but hardly all, of the news items related to local collegiate athletics because I enjoy sports and believe they have their place in our society. However, when carried to the extreme (which nearly always happens in "rivalry" situations), they threaten to tarnish the credibility of higher educational institutions and negatively impact society as a whole.
I hope there are other individuals/fans who will be willing to post views that promote civility and encourage perspective on the often volatile world of intercollegiate athletics.
And they... | 5:54 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008
are both doing a wonderful job presiding over the universities they are
leading....
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