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Gay-rights activists call for LDS help
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Democracy | 1:58 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Note to protesters: The way to "get your way" is at the ballot
box--not by screaming and shouting after you lost. If most of the people who
voted--WHO WERE NOT MORMONS--spoke against you, go take it up with THEM. Start
marching on individual homes in LA, Sacramento, Oakland, Fresno, wherever else.
Let's see--where have we heard this before? A large group of people wants to get their way--they blame a religious minority for ALL their problems. They target them for harassment and blame. They use half-truths and outright fabrications to sow fear and hatred against this minority. They threaten the minority with boycotts and economic isolation.
Protesters, your disappointment over losing is understandable. Your reaction, however, has no place in civilized society. Taking a page from ADOLF HITLER'S OWN PLAYBOOK has even less place.
You want "rights"? Act like you deserve them.
Let's see--where have we heard this before? A large group of people wants to get their way--they blame a religious minority for ALL their problems. They target them for harassment and blame. They use half-truths and outright fabrications to sow fear and hatred against this minority. They threaten the minority with boycotts and economic isolation.
Protesters, your disappointment over losing is understandable. Your reaction, however, has no place in civilized society. Taking a page from ADOLF HITLER'S OWN PLAYBOOK has even less place.
You want "rights"? Act like you deserve them.
Anonymous | 1:59 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Fellow Mormons-
What's wrong with civil unions? It isn't "marriage" and it isn't "calling good evil, and evil good." It's just about human decency. Not too long ago Mormons were called sinners and apostates in the eyes of the world. We were persecuted for it. Now we are the persecutors? Why? Aren't we forgetting what it is like to have the laws of the land used (unconstitutionally) against us?
Most of the comments I read on here about the Constitution are wrong. It is true that there is no Constitutional right to "marriage." But there is an Equal Protection Clause--meaning the laws should apply equally to all. That should include people who choose to be Mormon, or choose to be gay (if it is a choice--science tells us there may be more to it).
Remember the 11th Article of Faith. Let the gays "worship how, where or what they may."
What's wrong with civil unions? It isn't "marriage" and it isn't "calling good evil, and evil good." It's just about human decency. Not too long ago Mormons were called sinners and apostates in the eyes of the world. We were persecuted for it. Now we are the persecutors? Why? Aren't we forgetting what it is like to have the laws of the land used (unconstitutionally) against us?
Most of the comments I read on here about the Constitution are wrong. It is true that there is no Constitutional right to "marriage." But there is an Equal Protection Clause--meaning the laws should apply equally to all. That should include people who choose to be Mormon, or choose to be gay (if it is a choice--science tells us there may be more to it).
Remember the 11th Article of Faith. Let the gays "worship how, where or what they may."
Comments continue below
Flip Flop? | 2:24 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Proponents of the gay life style scream about church interference in political
discussion, but then are not only silent but passionate about courting the same
churches to support their views?
Wow, can you say hypocrisy?
Wow, can you say hypocrisy?
Reminder to LDS | 3:04 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man
and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the
Creator�s plan for the eternal destiny of His
children...
All human beings�male and female�are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose...
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is a sampling of how the Latter Day Saints member view marriage. We don't force anyone to believe in our religion. We believe in Free Agency.. the ability the choose and accept responsibility for our actions.
All human beings�male and female�are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose...
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is a sampling of how the Latter Day Saints member view marriage. We don't force anyone to believe in our religion. We believe in Free Agency.. the ability the choose and accept responsibility for our actions.
Scott Cheever | 3:38 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Genesis 18 & 19 addresses homosexuality, and ends all debate in my mind.
Nevermind modern G & L spin doctors; there is simply no wiggling out of it.
Can anyone dispute? Read these chapters and tell me: is God well pleased with
homosexuality? Only one that looks at black and says "its white" can
spin outta this one.
Paul | 4:22 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Never!
California Mormon | 5:42 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Nature (or God) discriminates. It (they)require male and female parts for
procreation. Marriage is the institution that promotes what Nature decrees. The
Mormon Church thrives because it aligns with Nature in promoting procreation on
Nature's terms together with its twin: Propagation, which is the nurturing
of adolescents. Gay marriage cannot align with Nature in procreation. Neither
does it usually provide for optimal propagation. Gays may scream for "equal
rights." But they won't soon change Nature's mind. Trying to do
so only invites disarray and disaster.
E-Gad | 6:01 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
It's disappointing to see so many hurtful comments when the subjects of
discussion are marriage, love, and religion. As faithful members of the LDS
Church, we should be more observant of our leaders' counsel to treat others
with dignity and respect when engaging in public discourse. We should recognize
that while we have every right, and probably even a duty, to defend the moral
principles of our faith, we can't expect others who don't share our
faith to be persuaded by appeals to religious doctrine.
I don't expect the Church to come out in support of this legislation. The Church's statement that it "does not object to" granting of various rights to same-sex couples was intended as an olive branch, but Mike Thompson has every right to believe it was sincere. I believe it was sincere. There's nothing to be gained by denying same-sex couples visitation rights and access during hospitalization and medical care, or discriminating against them in fair housing and employment. But there's a difference between "not objecting" and "endorsing." The Church's policy is not to intervene unless it sees a "moral issue" implicated in legislation. That puts the duty on us to study the legislation for ourselves.
I don't expect the Church to come out in support of this legislation. The Church's statement that it "does not object to" granting of various rights to same-sex couples was intended as an olive branch, but Mike Thompson has every right to believe it was sincere. I believe it was sincere. There's nothing to be gained by denying same-sex couples visitation rights and access during hospitalization and medical care, or discriminating against them in fair housing and employment. But there's a difference between "not objecting" and "endorsing." The Church's policy is not to intervene unless it sees a "moral issue" implicated in legislation. That puts the duty on us to study the legislation for ourselves.
New Yorker | 6:23 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Not going to happen in the near term. The glbt clan has spoken with their
actions.
Heather | 6:27 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
When a group of people vote, the topic has been settled. When the losers
terrorize the winners, damage their property, and threaten them with harm, cause
businesses to close, cause churches to close, their true side comes out. CASE
IS CLOSED!!!
re Legal rights Utah | 6:38 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Have you ever heard of a will? If your so afraid of your family and their
disgust for what you're doing check on who gets what in a will.
Mike | 6:48 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
So, if the church spoke out about stealing, would thieves line up outside the
headquarters and temples and protest? What a church considers a sin is a sin,
regardless of what it is. No church should have to aquiesce to people they
consider to be in error.
Equality? | 6:57 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
How can you speak/ask for equality?
Let's start about equality of the votes first.
Twice, Californians have voted fair and square, and you guys still don't follow the law. What else do we have to do?
Think about this...For those of us who did not vote for Obama, are we protesting the result? NO --because we were taught majority rules.
Let's start about equality of the votes first.
Twice, Californians have voted fair and square, and you guys still don't follow the law. What else do we have to do?
Think about this...For those of us who did not vote for Obama, are we protesting the result? NO --because we were taught majority rules.
I'm confused | 7:02 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Don't the "gay-rights advocates" already have the
"rights" they're asking the church to support them on? This is
obviously a publicity stunt.
Texas LDS | 7:12 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Give the Church time to let this be discussed among the 15 leaders.
I would have voted Yes on 8 if I lived in California. However, I do believe that there are certain rights that should be extended, such as the right to not have to testify against your registered partner.
I would have voted Yes on 8 if I lived in California. However, I do believe that there are certain rights that should be extended, such as the right to not have to testify against your registered partner.
Re: JCH | 7:14 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Let's not talk "evil", let's talk basic science and basic
Darwinism.
Q.
1. Does homosexuality benefit our animal species?
2. If genetic then what is "it"?
3. Should we teach the difference between normal and abnormal?
A.
1. If we are here to perpetuate the population then homosexuality benefits NOTHING to are animal species. Homosexual animals are then not "fit" for survival.
2. IF it's genetic then "it" is a genetic defect, one which would wipe itself out since it cannot multiply by sexual reproduction.
3. If it's a genetic defect then why should we teach it scienfically as a normality? If we could cure down syndrome, cancer, diabetes, or baldness wouldn't we? Scientifically we should then be looking for a cure for homosexuality. You don't want a cure? Then it must be a choice! You can't have it both ways, either it's a defect to be cured or a choice to be debated. Both ways it's an abnormal defect or choice.
The aborition of homosexuality is as abnormal scientifically as it is religiously. Science chooses to call it a genetic defect, when the other calls it a weakness we can overcome. Both admit it's NOT normal!
Q.
1. Does homosexuality benefit our animal species?
2. If genetic then what is "it"?
3. Should we teach the difference between normal and abnormal?
A.
1. If we are here to perpetuate the population then homosexuality benefits NOTHING to are animal species. Homosexual animals are then not "fit" for survival.
2. IF it's genetic then "it" is a genetic defect, one which would wipe itself out since it cannot multiply by sexual reproduction.
3. If it's a genetic defect then why should we teach it scienfically as a normality? If we could cure down syndrome, cancer, diabetes, or baldness wouldn't we? Scientifically we should then be looking for a cure for homosexuality. You don't want a cure? Then it must be a choice! You can't have it both ways, either it's a defect to be cured or a choice to be debated. Both ways it's an abnormal defect or choice.
The aborition of homosexuality is as abnormal scientifically as it is religiously. Science chooses to call it a genetic defect, when the other calls it a weakness we can overcome. Both admit it's NOT normal!
sad | 7:18 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
we need to remember that both sides will need to explain our actions and words
on judgment day. we need to try and be kinder to each other as we discuss
this.
as for my fellow lds, actions speak louder than words. we know better than to shout back. christ didn't do that, he quietly did his work. this whole argument is proof that one more prophecy is being fulfilled and we are closer than ever to the 2nd coming.
as for my fellow lds, actions speak louder than words. we know better than to shout back. christ didn't do that, he quietly did his work. this whole argument is proof that one more prophecy is being fulfilled and we are closer than ever to the 2nd coming.
Wouldn't bet on it | 7:27 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Such comments here. What happened to all of you who think gay couples should
have the legal rights of marriage, just not the name? Equality Utah, your
cause is just, but I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. At least the
world now knows it was all just lip service.
Remember, remember | 7:33 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
What? Asking the Church to support gay legislation? Has the gay community
completely forgotten the way they've treated us over the last few weeks?
Have they forgotten about vandalizing our temples already? Have they forgotten
their witch hunt to find LDS members who contributed to Prop 8?
Why Is It... | 7:41 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
... that Equality Utah has decided that the phrase "don't object"
to various gay civil rights actually means "bound and determined to lead
the charge"?
Yet another pressure tactic! I'm not surprised in the least that the Church isn't responding at this time. I have never been less impressed by the gay-rights movement.
Question: Precisely how is all this screaming, harassment, and behavior that's produced near-riot conditions supposed to demonstrate that these protesters DESERVE marriage? You protesters are, I think, familiar with the expression "self-defeating behavior"?
Equality, if you truly ARE interested in the church's support, you might FIRST try denouncing the protesters whose harassment, threats, violence (symbolic and real), and HATE SPEECH are clearly violating the boundaries of decency, civility, and humanity that exist in a free society. (Though such tactics ARE quite at home in totalitarianism or, even more fittingly, mob rule.)
Just a suggestion for the gay-rights advocates: People who scream a great deal about HATE SPEECH probably shouldn't be USING so much of it, assuming they really do want to live in a civilized society.
Yet another pressure tactic! I'm not surprised in the least that the Church isn't responding at this time. I have never been less impressed by the gay-rights movement.
Question: Precisely how is all this screaming, harassment, and behavior that's produced near-riot conditions supposed to demonstrate that these protesters DESERVE marriage? You protesters are, I think, familiar with the expression "self-defeating behavior"?
Equality, if you truly ARE interested in the church's support, you might FIRST try denouncing the protesters whose harassment, threats, violence (symbolic and real), and HATE SPEECH are clearly violating the boundaries of decency, civility, and humanity that exist in a free society. (Though such tactics ARE quite at home in totalitarianism or, even more fittingly, mob rule.)
Just a suggestion for the gay-rights advocates: People who scream a great deal about HATE SPEECH probably shouldn't be USING so much of it, assuming they really do want to live in a civilized society.
Rich | 7:53 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
You people need to read the article. They are not asking for Marriage rights in
Utah, they are asking to have the ability to visit each other, have health
insurance, etc.
Hate is a horrible thing, and I am seeing way too much of it from my brothers and sisters here in Utah.
Hate is a horrible thing, and I am seeing way too much of it from my brothers and sisters here in Utah.
Use Your Heart | 7:58 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
When i witness the love between gay couples (and many have been together for
decades) i see love. what is wrong with love? God recognizes love. listen to God
who speaks through your heart. don't blindly follow your leaders who are
MEN, not GOD.
this is NOT a choice. it's like being left-handed when the rest of society is right-handed. and if your leader said "oh we must protect right-handedness" you'd demonize left-handed folks too.
USE YOUR HEART--IT TELLS THE TRUTH
this is NOT a choice. it's like being left-handed when the rest of society is right-handed. and if your leader said "oh we must protect right-handedness" you'd demonize left-handed folks too.
USE YOUR HEART--IT TELLS THE TRUTH
also in California | 7:59 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Sorry, "Joe in California", but the gay lifestyle IS a choice. All of
the medical research has shown that to be true. But the gay community chooses
to bypass that bit of truth and pass off evil as good. Sorry, buddy, you lost
that one.
Are you kidding me... | 8:04 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The way the gay community has been treating the LDS church the past two weeks
& they want to talk to the church leaders? WOW, that is really gutsy! They
can deface, vandalize, rant & rave & call the LDS church all kinds of
names, but still want to meet with them in peace. I cannot believe that they
have the nerve to even do this! They expect the church to turn the other cheek -
the church isn't going to change GOD'S LAW - again, love the sinner,
hate the sin.
Captain Moroni | 8:17 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Comfortable? wrote - There are NO civil rights violations here because being gay
is a CHOICE. If you choose to do something that is wrong, you shouldn't be
awarded additional rights just because you don't want to change.
CM - When Mormons practiced polygamy, US officials said that Mormons didn't deserve "special rights" just for them and if they want marriage benefits, that they practice monogamy like everyone else. The LDS may have said that since they are not strictly monogamists, that doesn't make sense. The official may have told the Mormons that since they CHOOSE to be polygamists, the United States won't provide Mormons "special rights" based on their lifestyle choices. What Mormons preach in their own homes and churches is one thing, but why should American society, which was based on traditional Christianity (which preaches strict monogamy), have to change to accommodate the Mormons' chosen lifestyle? The Mormons may also have said that they paid taxes and deserve government benefits and protections monogamists get. This fell on deaf ears because they CHOOSE to be polygamists rather than being monogamists.
Liken the above unto they gays' situation. Pot-Kettle-Black
CM - When Mormons practiced polygamy, US officials said that Mormons didn't deserve "special rights" just for them and if they want marriage benefits, that they practice monogamy like everyone else. The LDS may have said that since they are not strictly monogamists, that doesn't make sense. The official may have told the Mormons that since they CHOOSE to be polygamists, the United States won't provide Mormons "special rights" based on their lifestyle choices. What Mormons preach in their own homes and churches is one thing, but why should American society, which was based on traditional Christianity (which preaches strict monogamy), have to change to accommodate the Mormons' chosen lifestyle? The Mormons may also have said that they paid taxes and deserve government benefits and protections monogamists get. This fell on deaf ears because they CHOOSE to be polygamists rather than being monogamists.
Liken the above unto they gays' situation. Pot-Kettle-Black
Anonymous | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The church will never help gay people do anything but change. They made all the
politically correct statements during the prop 8 campaign about pro-marriage not
anti-gay. Their unwillingness on this issue says it all.
CIVIL RIGHTS for every RACE | 8:30 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Are job applications of the future going to add a new ethnicity to the
checklist? Let's see, are you Hispanic, American Indian, White, Black or
Gay/Lesbian? Humm, it doesn't seem to work. Perhaps a new gender.
Male/Female/Gay/Lesbian. Nope, not there either. What is it? A behavior
perhaps?
As it is, all the exact same rights are granted whether straight or gay. Anyone can get married and divorced in all 50 states the same as anyone else can. Step up, pick someone of the opposite sex, and go get married.
We already share water fountains, bathrooms and buses in all 50 states. If you instead are looking to legalize and mainstream sexual deviancy, perhaps that plays more into the "infidel" label we should be quick to avoid.
I have gay associates whom I care deeply about. They are real people like me. But this is one of those situations where acceptance and love are best expressed through strict adherence to norms and standards, not through legislating a lowering of the bar and accepting less. Show true love. Keep the standard intact.
As it is, all the exact same rights are granted whether straight or gay. Anyone can get married and divorced in all 50 states the same as anyone else can. Step up, pick someone of the opposite sex, and go get married.
We already share water fountains, bathrooms and buses in all 50 states. If you instead are looking to legalize and mainstream sexual deviancy, perhaps that plays more into the "infidel" label we should be quick to avoid.
I have gay associates whom I care deeply about. They are real people like me. But this is one of those situations where acceptance and love are best expressed through strict adherence to norms and standards, not through legislating a lowering of the bar and accepting less. Show true love. Keep the standard intact.
OptionExplicit | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Why should The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints negotiate with
terrorists?
Change is coming. | 8:34 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
After the dust settles, the protests wane, and the comment boards die down, the
core problem for the Church will still remain. What to do with its gay and
lesbian members? The Church knows from years of bishops interviews and record
keeping that the numbers of gays and lesbians are constant, and a new crop is
being born everyday.
Gays and Lesbians are not going away and some type of accommodation or integration into the life of the church will have to occur. The Church is also not oblivious to advancing science/research on the issue, and political change.
I would argue that the Elder Oaks/Elder Wickman public affairs interview on same-sex attraction was specifically designed to do two things. 1). Blunt public criticism OUTSIDE of the Church (especially in the gay community) by softening the perception of the Church's positions, and 2). Inoculate hard core and entrenched members INSIDE the Church for the policy shifts towards gays that will inevitably be coming.
Does it benefit the Church to malign gays out of their families or out of their wards, just to keep them out of sight and out of mind? It's just not practical or sustainable in the long term.
Gays and Lesbians are not going away and some type of accommodation or integration into the life of the church will have to occur. The Church is also not oblivious to advancing science/research on the issue, and political change.
I would argue that the Elder Oaks/Elder Wickman public affairs interview on same-sex attraction was specifically designed to do two things. 1). Blunt public criticism OUTSIDE of the Church (especially in the gay community) by softening the perception of the Church's positions, and 2). Inoculate hard core and entrenched members INSIDE the Church for the policy shifts towards gays that will inevitably be coming.
Does it benefit the Church to malign gays out of their families or out of their wards, just to keep them out of sight and out of mind? It's just not practical or sustainable in the long term.
Brenden | 8:46 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Why does anyone suppose the LDS church promised to support and uphold anything
that promotes the gay/lesbian lifestyle? Why would they, when they would
obviously prefer that it was not practiced at all? What they actually said was
that if specific conditions were met--which they then spelled out--that they
would not object to hospital visitations, fair housing, employment, etc. What
that means is they won't be sending letters to their congregations
encouraging them to get out and organize against it, as they did with Prop 8.
What they will tell their people to do is what they usually say when elections
and issues come up--study it out, pray about it, and go vote your conscience.
That is a far cry from promising to officially endorse it, as the activists seem
to think they have done. They are not reneging on any commitments, and I doubt
there will be much more explanation forthcoming, as they have already stated
their position in plain English. Any claims to the contrary are just spin by the
other side who want to read more into it than is there.
Re: Elder Cynic | 8:54 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Who in their right mind cares about your rants?
I feel like a Black Man ... | 8:54 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
I was born and raised in Oakland, where, as a caucasian, I was a minority. I
listened to rap and hip-hop, and dressed the part. If I choose to act like an
African American, why can't I receive the benefits of being on that side of
affirmative action?! Don't take away my rights to affirmative action just
because we disagree on whether my feeling black is a choice, or if I was
actually born that way in Oakland.
Oh, and what about the people who feel old. You know, they dress and act like senior citizens, and associate with senior citizens - even though they're in their 20's. Why can't they receive a senior discount, or have membership in AARP? Aren't we depriving them of their "rights" too?
While we're at it - we need to get rid of "Ladies Night" discounts at any bars or clubs. And I deserve a free sucker at the bank too, not just my kids ...
Oh, and what about the people who feel old. You know, they dress and act like senior citizens, and associate with senior citizens - even though they're in their 20's. Why can't they receive a senior discount, or have membership in AARP? Aren't we depriving them of their "rights" too?
While we're at it - we need to get rid of "Ladies Night" discounts at any bars or clubs. And I deserve a free sucker at the bank too, not just my kids ...
Anonymous | 9:00 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Anon wrote - I believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of
God. In this democratic society, all have a right to vote as they believe and to
speak up for what they believe.
LDS - That's what the Congressmen back in DC said when they voted against polygamy - one of the twin evils upon which the Republican Party was founded to oppose (the other being slavery).
LDS - That's what the Congressmen back in DC said when they voted against polygamy - one of the twin evils upon which the Republican Party was founded to oppose (the other being slavery).
@Anonymous | 1:09 a.m | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
"FACT: Studies prove that if an identical twin is gay there is only a 20%
chance that the other twin will also be gay. Since identical twins have
identical genetic makeup....so much for the born-gay theory."
A little reading will open your eyes. It is actually 52% of twins will be gay and that is quite a large percentage. Only 30% of identical twins will both have type one diabetes, if one has it. It has to do with the penetrance of the gene.
���One group of researchers studied identical twins and found that, of 56 sets of identical twins in which one member was gay, the other twin was also gay in 52 percent of the cases. That means that nearly half the identical twins of gay men were not gay, so it suggests a strong but not determinative genetic component (Adler, 1992)
A little reading will open your eyes. It is actually 52% of twins will be gay and that is quite a large percentage. Only 30% of identical twins will both have type one diabetes, if one has it. It has to do with the penetrance of the gene.
���One group of researchers studied identical twins and found that, of 56 sets of identical twins in which one member was gay, the other twin was also gay in 52 percent of the cases. That means that nearly half the identical twins of gay men were not gay, so it suggests a strong but not determinative genetic component (Adler, 1992)
More Genetic Studies | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
��"In Thomas Bouchard's
study of identical twins separated at birth, there were three pairs of male
identical twins in which at least one was homosexual. In two out of three cases,
the other twin was homosexual also, despite being raised in a different
household and never seeing his twin brother during childhood."
���
���
���Psychology: An Introduction
���by Russell A. Dewey, PhD
���
���
���Psychology: An Introduction
���by Russell A. Dewey, PhD
Anonymous | 9:07 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
All of you realize that this has nothing to do with Prop 8, don't you?
This is about 5 new bills that will come before the UTAH legislature this
January.
Be sane about this... | 9:17 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The "gay community" is actually just individuals with a common
denominator. They have no leaders, rules, codes of conduct, or way to punish
those who might act in a way that other gays think stupid, childish or
counter-productive. They cannot kick them out of the club or excommunicate
them.
Equity Utah is a group of gays that seem to be organized and have already comdemned the actions of other gays that were illegal. They are trying to work WITH the LDS church to bring some legislation before the Utah legislature this January.
Please, we should not judge all missionaries by the few that desecrated the Catholic Shrine.
We should not judge all gays by the few that acted illegally.
WE SHOULD NOT JUDGE. PERIOD.
Equity Utah is a group of gays that seem to be organized and have already comdemned the actions of other gays that were illegal. They are trying to work WITH the LDS church to bring some legislation before the Utah legislature this January.
Please, we should not judge all missionaries by the few that desecrated the Catholic Shrine.
We should not judge all gays by the few that acted illegally.
WE SHOULD NOT JUDGE. PERIOD.
Interesting... | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
that the LDS church leaders say they "do not oppose", and the
homosexual lobbyists in the state take that to mean they "lend their
support". It's not just semantics, that's a huge difference. The
LDS church is not going to support anything that goes against its doctrines. It
isn't going to support non-married heterosexual couples living together,
and it's not going to support homosexual couples living together. It may
not directly oppose them the way they oppose redefining marriage as a
free-for-all, but I highly doubt they'll throw their approval and support
behind this.
NoWayGay | 9:20 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
These lunatic activists are only seeking validation for morally wrong choices
and are hiding behind the cloke of marriage rights to get it. When they
criticized the LDS Church, or protested it, or sat outside the gates of Temple
Square, or vandalized, or verbally abused people all aimed at the Church or its
members, did they ever do so at other churches? How about doing a sit in at the
Cathedral of the Madaline? The Catholic Church for example was adamant to
solicit the LDS Church to join in the support of Prop8 in California, yet you
never hear anything from these people aimed at the Catholic Church, or any other
Church organization that came out against their desires to rape the definition
of marriage in this country. They scream foul when we try to stop their
protests, yet they turn around and abuse and threaten those who won't be
quiet in standing up against their moral assault on the family. Time is now
people to not be quiet, to make all the noise possible against this assault, and
to put down any efforts to rape family values whether they be in California,
Salt Lake, or other places. NoWayGay
David | 9:29 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
In Southern California, the average wedding license fee (vary by county) is $70
while domestic partnership fees total $43.
To anonymous, you do not understand identical twin genetics or you would have noted that identical twins often do not share handedness, with one being right handed the other left.
To anonymous, you do not understand identical twin genetics or you would have noted that identical twins often do not share handedness, with one being right handed the other left.
No trust | 9:32 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
It's funny when people voice concerns that the gays will carry this further
and sue churches that don't marry gays, they respond by telling us to
relax. They wouldn't do that. That is a lie. I'm convinced, judging
by the actions of the gay community since the passing of prop 8, that they will
not stop until they have destroyed every institution that promotes traditional
marriage as defined by God. The gay community has proven they can not be
trusted for a second.
And being gay is a choice. To say otherwise is another lie. I don't care what some medical association says.
And being gay is a choice. To say otherwise is another lie. I don't care what some medical association says.
??????noclue | 9:34 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Are these people who are part of the gay rights activitist nutcase movement so
naive that they don't realize that they would have more success getting
results talking to a fencepost in the desert than soliciting the LDS Church to
support their raping of the sanctity of the family and definition of marriage.
Their logic is tantamount to the President of Iran converting to Judism and
inviting them over for a celebratory feast....ain't no way, no how, now way
it will ever happen. Sad thing is these people are so blinded by their cause
that they wrongly blame the LDS Church as discriminatory or cruel towards their
so called human rights, when actually it is not about human rights....it is
about RIGHT vs WRONG...and when it comes to that, there is never a gray area,
especially when the CHurch is following doctrines that were established not by
they themselves, but from someone a bit higher up the totem pole...Memo to the
activists, forget it! And I say to all who have the proper grey matter to know
right from wrong, never backdown in opposition to any form of evil that seeks to
tear down the family unit or right.
Contradiction | 9:37 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Michael Thompson.....now there is a true contradiction in terms...the name
"Michael" means "like God"..... need we say more.
Give me a break | 9:38 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Marriage is "ordained" of god??? Oh give me a break.
Marriage is how society and church's control your personal lives. They set the rules and you have to abide by them.
The reality is Marriage is a piece of paper issued by someone that means if you decide not to be married it's going to cost you a whole bunch of money!!!
Do you think seriously that some God cares about your little piece of paper?
If your religious ...particularly LDS you will say yes.
Just remember that this God that you profess to be loving and caring is the same God that killed all the 1st born in the bible at the time of 10 commandments. He didn't kill the king or the romans or whatever....he killed the children. The same ones that the LDS church claims are innocent...
What kind of God kills innocent children???
Yes...Marriage was ordained of that God.
You can keep it....
Marriage is how society and church's control your personal lives. They set the rules and you have to abide by them.
The reality is Marriage is a piece of paper issued by someone that means if you decide not to be married it's going to cost you a whole bunch of money!!!
Do you think seriously that some God cares about your little piece of paper?
If your religious ...particularly LDS you will say yes.
Just remember that this God that you profess to be loving and caring is the same God that killed all the 1st born in the bible at the time of 10 commandments. He didn't kill the king or the romans or whatever....he killed the children. The same ones that the LDS church claims are innocent...
What kind of God kills innocent children???
Yes...Marriage was ordained of that God.
You can keep it....
Michaelitos | 9:41 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
There is a difference between "not opposing" and
"supporting" just like there is a difference between
"tolerance" and "acceptance". It is an unfair debating
technique that tries to equate the two.
The Church has said on multiple occassions that tolerance (i.e. turning the other cheek) is appropriate and Christ-like. It has said that it does not oppose certain rights, like hospital visits, etc. However, to turn it around and say that it should then support gay rights, from marriage to civil unions is just unfair. That's NOT what they have said at all.
The Church has said on multiple occassions that tolerance (i.e. turning the other cheek) is appropriate and Christ-like. It has said that it does not oppose certain rights, like hospital visits, etc. However, to turn it around and say that it should then support gay rights, from marriage to civil unions is just unfair. That's NOT what they have said at all.
Dion in CA | 9:42 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
The Church saying they support a civil union will never happen. It's so
simple. It's doctine that marriage is between a man and woman, and civil
unions are a form of secular marriage.
The Church getting behind civil unions would give the unofficial stamp of approval for people who have the homosexual tendancy to ACT upon it and proceed down a path of moral error. The people who are asking for the Church to give them support in this effort are wasting their breath.
Why not simply ask the Savior to help make a change in your life and get back on the right course? Incredible what is happening in the world today.
Keep shoving this homosexual movement down the throats of the American people and watch it crash and burn. I know we are tired of the ridiculous antics here in California. Enough already, next thing you know, pedophiles and the like will get on board and start protesting their causes.
The Church getting behind civil unions would give the unofficial stamp of approval for people who have the homosexual tendancy to ACT upon it and proceed down a path of moral error. The people who are asking for the Church to give them support in this effort are wasting their breath.
Why not simply ask the Savior to help make a change in your life and get back on the right course? Incredible what is happening in the world today.
Keep shoving this homosexual movement down the throats of the American people and watch it crash and burn. I know we are tired of the ridiculous antics here in California. Enough already, next thing you know, pedophiles and the like will get on board and start protesting their causes.
goodwife | 9:45 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Those who oppose Prop 8 often state separation of church and state as their
reasoning, and I agree, but that needs to go both ways. Unfortunately, if
same-sex marriage were made legal that's when the real infringment would
begin. As we have seen in other states, same-sex couples would then sue in order
to enforce their legal right to get married where they want, by who they want,
with the photographer they want even if these persons or religions do not
support their way of life. They want separation of church and state when
it's in their best interest, but when it comes time to keep the state of
their union out of our Churches, then they're singing a different tune.
The fear for those of us who support Prop.8 is not that same-sex couples will be given more or equal rights, but that they in turn will try to take away ours. Morality issues aside, it's a terrible decision to have to choose between validating the lifestyle choice of the few or risking the relgious freedoms of the many. The right choice seems so clear...
The fear for those of us who support Prop.8 is not that same-sex couples will be given more or equal rights, but that they in turn will try to take away ours. Morality issues aside, it's a terrible decision to have to choose between validating the lifestyle choice of the few or risking the relgious freedoms of the many. The right choice seems so clear...
Not opposed... | 9:57 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
does not equal supports.
Change is not coming | 9:57 a.m. Nov. 18, 2008
Contrary to our friend "Change is Coming" who posted earlier, I must
say that change is NOT coming. The Church does not have a core problem, its gay
and lesbian members are the ones with the decision to make. We certainly
don't want our gay and lesbian members to go away, but they will ultimatley
have to be the ones to decide whether living the standards of the gosple is too
hard. It is they who will have to decide to live a chaste and virtuous life,
not the church that will need to change to accomodate advancing science/research
on the issue, and political change.
Does it benefit the Church to malign gays out of their families or out of their wards, just to keep them out of sight and out of mind? The church as an institution doesn't malign gays (though I am sure some of our members do not treat them with respect and dignity)...it openly welcomes and accepts members of the church who want to strive to live the standards of the gospel. It's the gays and lesbians who have the core decsion to make, not the church.
Does it benefit the Church to malign gays out of their families or out of their wards, just to keep them out of sight and out of mind? The church as an institution doesn't malign gays (though I am sure some of our members do not treat them with respect and dignity)...it openly welcomes and accepts members of the church who want to strive to live the standards of the gospel. It's the gays and lesbians who have the core decsion to make, not the church.
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Civil Unions are subject to the govt anyway, that already gives them those rights. Gays can have all of the tolerance, love, and rights that anyone else should have under the law. Does this mean that the govt should grant everything that gays want to have, like unto marriage. No, it doesn't. Sorry, the govt has the right to discriminate with its moneys and benefits.
When the govt starts to infringe on a religious institution though, then come and see where the Church stands, because keeping religious freedoms unentangled by govt involves the Church directly. Whereas, you are on your own agenda approaching govt bureaucracy for perceived secular rights you think you deserve, which should have nothing to do w/ marriage/family/religion.
This is like asking God to justify sin, and then hating Him when He says no. Good one.