I'd like to see the gay community in California gather enough signatures to put
their own proposition on the ballot--perhaps something that invalidates weddings
conducted in mormon temples. Will it pass? Of course not, but it's only fair
that the other side's rights should be subject to a vote as well.I
wonder if mormons would act with serene civility if that were to happen...
The Mormon church has stepped waaaaayyy over the line by actively spurring its
members to convert religious belief into civil law.Yes, Mormons have
the right to vote and express their opinion, but that doesn't mean what they do
with that right is the right thing. In this case, they have abused their rights
to strip fellow human beings of human rights. In my book, that is a
hate crime.The Mormon church will reap what it has sowed, namely,
Can't win in the ballot box, then go to the streets claiming the other side is
discriminatory. Pretty sad. Go ahead and protest and you'll see the sleeping
giant of conservatism arise. Yes, liberals carry the day currently in the
House, Senate and White House, but guaranteed if a true conservative comes
forward in 2012, with the past 4 years having ridiculous lawsuits against
constitutionally passed ammendments, or if courts continue to rule without
legislation (see Connecticut), the sleeping giant of conservatism will arise to
claim power once again. Nothing upsets the populace more than courts
overturning legislation, and petty protests denying freedom of speech for those
who disagree with you. The only ones spewing hatred right now are the
protestors in favor of gay marriage against religion. Nothing in the Mormon or
Catholic stance tolerated hatred for the other side, contrary to those
protesting them now.
It appears that the Church's prominent role in defeating marriage rights for
homosexuals is backfiring. I don't think I have ever seen the Gay Rights
movement more united and the Church has set itself up as the uniting force.In the end the Mormons will cause everything they have been trying to
avoid. They have sown the wind, and are reaping the whirlwind.
If pro-gay marriage supporters truly feel their cause is just and reasonable,
they should stop the protests and create a proposition to support their
position. Then spend the next year or two defending and promoting the position.
Let the people vote again. This was not the last election where such decisions
can be made. Let the democratic process function. Mob rule is not the answer.
Gettysburg Address:.....government of the people, by the people, for the people,
shall not perish from the earth. Democracy itself defined by President Lincoln,
democracy in California has spoken Prop 8, deal with it.
Unless these marchers also take their cause up to the Cathedral of the Madeline,
then they too are just as bigoted as they claim LDS are.too bad they
don't realize their attacks on Utah is hurting their cause more than helping it.
This really has gotten past the point of ANNOYING!Not only are you
closing major streets down, but the commuter's on these streets are ANNOYED with
all of you! (even those who voted no on 8), AND the fact that this is
"after-the-fact." The voice of the people spoke LOUD AND CLEAR in
ALL 3 STATES! Give it a rest. Mask's are off and everyone really see's who you
are. And it's not pretty. It's ANNOYING! Just like it would be if I were to
stand outside the front of the white house with my McCain sign throwing a 3-year
old temper tantrum, because Obama is now the president.A N N O Y I N G!
They are right. A sleeping giant is being awakened. That is the 98% heterosexual
community. We are seeing what bigots some of these glbt really are. Keep pushing
and you'll get much more than you want. Be happy with civil unions and continue
to play house. Fortunately, reproduction will continue to keep your numbers at
2%. You have ruined the word gay and the sign of the rainbow. There was all of
75 protesters here in NYC out of 8 million people. Now that is gigantic!
Let the gays get married and be miserable like the rest of us.
Go gays! Gay marriage will be a reality. If not today then tomorrow or in 10
Dont H8 democracy.
Sandra Rodrigues, like many Americans do not understand our government. Many
people argue the point that the state Supreme Court should have listened to the
"will of the people" when it made its decision allowing gay marriage to be
legal. One thing this proves is that much of the citizenry is ill
informed about the purpose of the judicial system. One of the reasons it was
made a separate branch was to specifically insulate it from the whims of the
electorate. It is not, and never has been, the job of justices to base their
decisions upon what a majority of the people want. It is their job to protect
the minority from the will of the majority when the majority favors abrogating
the constitutional rights of the minority.Everyone is free to
disagree with the arguments that their decisions are based upon - but, please
don't try to make the point that they should be paying attention to how the
people vote on an issue.
It's so ironic that this Rodriguez woman would ask that people respect democracy
and the will of the voters. Are civil rights subject to the whim of the voting
public? Could this same public theoretically vote to take away rights from
other groups, reinstate segregation and slavery? NO! Civil rights do not exist
at the pleasure of a voting majority. They are inherent to all people and
immune to prejudice and ignorance. I don't think a lot of people understand
what it means to have your very identity brought before the public as a ballot
proposition, how insulting and dehumanizing it is to be publicly legislated
against as a person. These same people will sit and wonder why we are lashing
out in frustration and sadness at being relegated to a second class status.
All I can say is, this is going to get a lot worse and, if the civil rights
struggles of the 1960's are any indication, we are in for a lot of social
upheaval as gay Americans stand up and say: "No more! We deserve the same
rights that you enjoy and we will fight to the death to protect them!"
"They are persecuting our church and other people in California, but they need
to get a life and honor democracy," said Sandra Rodrigues, of Cottonwood
Heights.Majority is not always correct - Amendments 13 & 15, Brown
vs. Topeka Board of Education, Civil Rights Act of 1964, Loving vs. Virginia -
US history is filled with a steady progression of minority civil rights being
gained despite the bigoted views of the majority. You came into a
state that is not yours, and poured millions of dollars into stripping the civil
rights away from a minority group on a ballot issue that was not in your state
and therefore was none of your business. Who exactly needs to get a life, here?
I see the Gay community only respects a vote in a Democratic election that goes
their way.Just as Obama supporters are crowing about how wonderful democracy is
when and only when their guy wins.Heaven forbid that McCain would of won the
election,this would have been another miscarrage of Democracy.
Why are LGBT's focusing completely on the LDS Church? The Church State Council
of the Seventh-day Adventist Church (in Westlake Village, CA) also backed the
proposition 8 proposal. All of this demonstrating looks anti-Mormon
and not pro-LGBT. They are singling out a single minority to express there
discouragement against. Sound even slightly familiar?
I am totally disgusted by the behavior of the GLBT by singling out the Mormon
Churches. They are hurting their cause by doing this. The vote should count and
the people have spoken. The GLBT think that they can walk over everyone else to
get their way. What will be next? I have seen some very hateful behavior by them
and they call everyone else a bigot.
Wa Wa. I hope all you people can find something constructive to do. I don't
think you'll be able to keep up the protests forever. Like was said before, get
it on the ballot again in the next election. Maybe you'll win. And luckily,
Mormons will continue to fight it no matter what because God never changes and
we don't either. The United States will likely continue down the same path it
has been, destroying itself from inside. It's been prophesied; it's not news to
us. But it is still our responsibility to fight against it. And in the end,
you'll see who's right.
NEW YORKER: AMEN AMEN AMEN
Interesting choice of address. You should have picked a time and place where the
president wasn't speaking in the context of protecting the rights of an
oppressed minority against the will of half the country's population.
State-sanctioned bigotry is never right, no matter how many people approve of
it. Most of those who support it now will pretend like they didn't when
mainstream culture finally turns in favor of life and liberty and justice for
Hatred? It seems like everywhere I looked, it's the gay and lesbian community
who is showing hatred here. They are loud and boisterous and trying to shove
their lifestyle in people's faces. It's not a political issue, it is a moral
issue and the religious community has every right to express it's view and doing
it in a civilize and peaceful way.
Mormons have not stepped over the line, they have DRAWN the line. There is no
hatred being spewed, just a declaration of what is not right or good for
society. Yes selfish people will do whatever they want, "calling evil good, and
good, evil" but it will never be the right thing to do. It is wrong and will
always be wrong. Until God says otherwise.
I used to think the majority of gay marriage supporters were just trying to get
some form of basic recognition - and not looking to shove it down others
throats. However, if that were the case, it makes me wonder why a civil union
would not be sufficient? Still, if one looks at the recent legal
attacks on organizations affiliated with religious institutions in Americans by
gay activists leveraging their newly-established rights as gay married couples
(eg Catholic orphanages or even the Boy Scouts), it's clear that the gay
activist lobby groups like LAMBDA and HRC definitely have a larger agenda in
mind to hurt or change churches to the point they either go away (eg get their
IRS tax-exempt status stripped) or have them change their fundamental values to
accommodate gay clergy or laity.
B. Heath,"It's so ironic that this Rodriguez woman would ask that
people respect democracy and the will of the voters. Are civil rights subject to
the whim of the voting public?"Marriage isn't a civil right. You can
lie all you want but the right to vote unlike marriage is our civil right."All I can say is, this is going to get a lot worse and, if the civil
rights struggles of the 1960's are any indication, we are in for a lot of social
upheaval as gay Americans stand up and say: "No more. We deserve the same rights
that you enjoy and we will fight to the death to protect them!"And
we will fight to the death to protect our right to make the law. Do not threaten
us, or attempt to intimidate us because you can have our dead bodies but not our
obedience. You have the same rights as us and we have never discriminated
against you and those who agree with you are tyrants who want to force the
majority to change the law that any gay person can benefit from because you
think you are our masters.
No one should have to get a ballot passed in order to KEEP their rights or to
win their rights. Just imagine if it had been up to a popular vote when slavery
was abolished or women won the right to vote..what is that about. The majority
should NEVER get to vote away the rights of the minority. Keep pushing your hate
and it will backfire on you. Keep taking away rights and your rights will be
next. Wake up and smell the future. The Mormon Church put themselves in this
battle, so be it. Oh and as a final note, I am totally disgusted by the behavior
of people that have nothing better to do than to try to take away or keep away
others rights. If the church keeps messing around in states rights, their rights
will be the next to go....peace.
This is simply amazing... these protests aren't being organized by the major gay
organizations - they are being put together by people who are outraged that a
religious organization would dare put their dogma into a state constitution. We
have separation of church and state in this country - and people are waking up
to the fact of "who's rights are next?" This whole proposition 8 thing is going
to backfire and do for gay marriage what years of lobbying could never do. It
will galvanize ALL AMERICANS to realize that it is wrong to discriminate. This
is the first time that minority rights have been voted away by a majority - and
people are slowing waking up to the injustice of that. Doesn't matter if you
are gay or straight, married or not... people intuitively know it is WRONG. The
bigots will lose, and they know it. Equality will prevail!
honosectually is now a constitutional right? give me a break
Interesting.First California decides that, yes, not allowing Gays
the civil right to marry is unconstitutional. Then people and churches got mad
because they didn't have a say in the decision to whether or not Gays should be
allowed to marry and they commence on creating a Proposition to have it defined
because they deemed it an affront to the church...even though the "claim" was
that it was because it should have gone through a democratic vote.So after
this close election, people decided for Prop 8 (and from what I've seen people
voted for this for il-informed reasons...yes they were il-informed) and Gay
Activists are rallying to make the nation pay attention to this insult.I
believe that there are some things that people should not vote on, like this. I
feel that California had every correct intention to protect the basic civil
rights of their citizens when they did this and the people crying foul should
have just accepted it.Ask yourselves why they didn't just accept
this decision as a form of protecting citizens' rights.
In simple terms this country was founded on Freedom and the Pursuit of
Happiness. Live and Let Live
Equality will win! Gay people will have the right to marry. We're only talking
about how long we have to wait. Let's have homosexuals and the Mormons come to
a settlement which should make everyone happy - Let's set a minimum age for
consent and let's say the parties have to be human beings, as long as the
parties meet those two minimum requirements they can get married - heck, let's
even say they can marry as many as they want - who cares (except the religious
zealots and "traditonal thinkers")
Why did the Morman Church spend so much money trying to pass Prop. 8? Who
gains? Gay marriage does nothing to threaten heterosexual marriage. Polygamy
does much more to threaten it. Polygamy has been a part of the Morman Church
for a long time as has having under-age girls marry. Talk about threatening
traditional marriage!Plus it is interesting that the Christian right
has, for the most part, attacked homosexuality on every front. What is it,
exactly, that they are afraid of? On the list of things to worry about, I'd
think a gay couple as neighbors is pretty far down the list.The
anti-homosexual fervor has much more to do with the powerlessness of it's
advocates than it does any threat from gay people.
While I disagree that calling a same-sex union a "marriage" has anything to
do with civil rights, I still suggest that those who believe it does might take
a hint from Dr. Martin Luther King about non-violence. Please re-read some of
his speeches and upgrade your behavior. Meanwhile, we have already had
the word "gay" stolen so that little children can no longer sing the
"Kookaburra" song (among others) and women named Gay are embarrassed in public.
Please don't now steal the word "marriage" by trying to make it mean something
else. Yes, it does steal something from the real thing when
counterfeits can be called by the same name.
ANNOYING!,"Not only are you closing major streets down, but the
commuter's on these streets are ANNOYED with all of you! (even those who voted
no on 8), AND the fact that this is "after-the-fact."Do you think
these voters care about the voters who are trying to get to work but can't
because they are exercising their right to assemble. How many people must be
inconvenienced so that they can protest the right of the majority to make the
law?"The voice of the people spoke LOUD AND CLEAR in ALL 3 STATES!
Give it a rest. Mask's are off and everyone really see's who you are. And it's
not pretty. It's ANNOYING! Just like it would be if I were to stand outside the
front of the white house with my McCain sign throwing a 3-year old temper
tantrum, because Obama is now the president.A N N O Y I N G!"You are right. The people chose Obama as President and I voted for him as
well. I wouldn't protest him since he is my President but those who support same
sex marriage don't understand that the people have spoken. They are tyrants.
New YorkerToo bad. Were gonna keep pushing. Your threats don't
scare us. We survived Republicans blocking AIDS funding, and we'll survive
whatever you people throw at us. You have a choice America, more of the
protests or FULL civil rights for Gays. What you WONT get is continued
discrimination against Gays and quiet Gays. While we'd like to have
tolerance, civility, acceptance, respect, and our civil rights, if we have to
jettison the first four to get our civil rights we will. Besides, we never got
any tolerance or civility from the Pro H8 crowd. Voting to destroy someones
marriage is hateful. Period. By the way, I'd like to see Gay civil unions laws
in Utah before the Mormons say another word about this not being Mormons hating
Gays. Sorry about ruining the word Gay for you. People such as
yourself have ruined the word Christian for millions of us. So I guess we're
square on that one huh. You can keep your supposed tolerance,
civility, acceptance and respect. We'll take our civil rights.
For those of us who were actually there, this is a very poorly written report of
what took place. Tell what we talked about. Don't just pull out sensationalistic
quotes from the middle of speeches.Were you even there?
Mormons have tried to have multiple wives for eons and now they've bankrolled to
keep a class of citizens from having even one???? You coulnd't make this up,
Gays in California have been rebuked by the voters again and again and even have
a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage which the gays want to disobey.
That is insurrection and treasonous in itself. Gays that are anarchist must be
shut down. Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics.... what, do
liberals hate everyone who Does Not Bow To Your Demands? Get over
it. YOU LOST!!! TWICE!!! Face the facts. Marriage is not a civil right. It is a
religious ceremony. If you want to have sex, go ahead. "GBLTs are
never satisfied. Their civil rights are not being discriminated against. Don't
you dare compare yourselves to "African American blacks", "Hispanics", "Native
Americans". Those are ethnic groups. You aren't a minority-face it. You can have
all the rights with a "civil union". THE MAIN STREAM seems to WANTS NOTHING TO
DO WITH YOU OR YOUR BEHAVIOR. YOU CAN PROTEST ALL YOU WANT, YOU CAN
PROTEST AT ALL THE CHURCHES, YOU CAN PROTEST AT MORMON CHURCHES ALL OVER THE
NATION. I JUST LOVE IT BECAUSE U ARE AM EMBARASSMENT & WILL TURN THE NATION
What you do in your own bedroom is pretty much a private affair. When YOU bring
it out in public, it becomes public. Gays, lesbians, etc. have to understand
that they are demanding we support and embrace their lifestyles. Homosexuality
is something I object to. I won't abuse a homosexual, but, I will not support
The GLBT needs to learn the art of "sportsmanship." If Prop 8 would have passed
I guarantee that Mormons would not be vandalizing the GLBT buildings, protesting
in their cities, or sending messages of hate to their leaders. The state of
California has spoken; the majority of them prefer Prop 8. God bless America.
Somebody's protesting and mad at the Mormon Church? Whatever shall we do?
Yawn.......nothing new, just different topic. Protest all you want, it wont
change anything. Funny how no other churches were singled out, they
only chose the LDS faith because they knew that we wouldn't do anything in
retaliation, whereas another church might come out swinging. Don't
stress fellow members, the principles of the Church will not change, nor will
the Brethren bow down to threats and intimidation.
There were thousands of people protesting today, not just hundreds.
The prince of the world cometh, and hath nothing in me. It doesn't matter if you
demonstrate against us. We still love you, and we still believe you are wrong.
If by 51/49 we can take the right of people away, maybe we can go with Prop 9
and re establish slavery....
I'm an atheist.I would not ,however, try to dissuade anyone from their
beliefs. Kudos to the Mormons for backing their beliefs,and not changing
them for the cause of the moment,as apposed to a lot of other so called
America is not a simple democracy. America is a republic. This means the
minority should be protected from the tyranny of the majority.
All you people have to do, is dress up Mitt Romney in a dress, turn him lose in
the streets there, the handful of the Utah gay community will see him, and, all
die laughing at him, you bury them at the county landfill, problem solved. Why
is it so hard for you to think up these thing's also?. It works. Than push for
Mitt Romney & Sarah Palin for the White House in 2012.
Mormons, thank you. You have been the catalyst to help focus our cause to move
forward. You have been the motivation for thousands both Gay and Straight to
find their voices.As they said today at the rally... "we'll look
back with the next generation, years from today and say - you know, I was there
in Salt Lake at the time when it started. Salt Lake City, Really, this IS the
place!"Mormons, thank you again.
I agree with Anonymous. Why shouldn't we be able to vote on marriage between men
and women. For all of you who are in straight marriages, just imagine if one day
your marriage was not viewed as legitimate. How would that make you feel? Of
course you would fight back.
So let's see...this is a political issue, so churches should stay out. Oh, and
it's a moral issue, and about fundamental rights! Pick your argument, gay rights
See the lilies of the field see how they spin see how they toil !!
Democracy 4:33. I don't know what Rodrigues is referring to, but CA electorate
passed a bill that defined marriage as between a man and a woman. Then their
Supreme Court overturned it. Prop 8 is the second time the people of CA have
voted to define marriage as between a man and a woman. Why do YOU get define
what marriage is but not me? Separation of Church and State also means keeping
your STATE out of my Church. You say you're not going to force me to allow gay
marriages in our buildings and temples, but your vitriol, vandalism, and
violence make your middle-of-the-road promises seem very, very empty.
6,156,848 people voted yes on P8, and only 749,490 people in California are LDS.
what does that mean??? Over 5 million people dont support gays marrying, and nor
do I. why single out a church that has only has a few people in Cali? Are you
looking for someone to blame for your defeat?
The GLBT loves to distort the issue, huh. Its not taking away any rights,
because they have all of the same rights in a civil union. Its looking for
validation of a behavior choice. Readers here, did you know that the scientific
community has never EVER found any evidence that you are BORN gay? They have
tried and tried, but there is no Gay gene, no gay instinct, nothing but high
hormone levels and screwed up homes/relationship backlash. Being gay is not
forced on a person in any way, no matter how loud the GLBT shouts that it is. I
will always vote against laws that encourage people to be gay because I don't
want to support the lies that state that being gay is anything more than a
physical/mental problem. The GLBT community needs therapy, not encouragement!
The anti-Prop 8 protesters are proving that the left's charade of demanding
"tolerence and acceptance and diversity" is a bunch of lies. They want
tolerence for THEIR views, but not for others, even the majority.The
gay "rights" agenda is unacceptable. Gay "marriage" is a sham, as well as
unacceptable.Go home and leave us alone. You had a chance at the
ballot box and lost. The will of the people has clearly spoken and overturned
the despicable acts of activist California judges.If Prop 8 comes up
again, we will fight twice as hard to defend traditional marriage.
I am so tired of the half-truths and complete lies offered by the "homosexual
community" regarding this issue. For once and for all - it's NOT a
right. Marriage is not a right - got that - NOT a constitutional right. You
have no more a "right" than a many times convicted DUI offender has to continue
driving a motor vehicle - that's the best analogy. Nobody took ANYTHING away
from you. You have every right to choose another lifestyle. You
have every right to change your ways. You have every right to form a civil
union. You have every right to be whatever you call it in your own privacy - I
don't want to know about it. The PEOPLE in three states have spoken
- you lost at the ballot box [a novel idea,huh?]. And, as one of yours
said, you may have awoken a sleeping giant and it's not you. For example, I
like your great turnout in New York City - a few dozen out of millions and
millions of people.
Gays- show yourself. Oh, you already have. Bigoted, hateful, vengeful,
violent, arrogant, law breakers, and unconstitutional. Yep, the description
seems to fit well. Oh, California is burning. Why are you not there supporting
the state. Too busy, protesting in another state for selfish reasons? Not
considerate of your neighbor in their plight? How sad that your cruel behavior
shouts so loudly across the land that no one can actually hear your rants of
meaness towards others' beliefs.
"I don't want to be married. I'm very happy with a civil partnership. If gay
people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil
partnership," said John. "The word marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off.
You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership.
Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships."The
dinner, held at Cipriani Wall Street, was hosted by CNN's Anderson Cooper and
featured a performance from Gladys Knight. John's foundation gets a four-star
rating, the highest available, from CharityNavigator.com and John, in his
speech, called for the enactment of a national AIDS policy.
Of all the many many supporters of Prop 8, the reason the LDS Church gets
singled out is not because the protesters think the Church made the difference
in the Prop 8 outcome. The vast majority of these protesters probably don't even
care about gay marriage. Instead, their protests are fueled by
their general hate for the LDS Church and all things LDS, and the opening
they're taking is based on this thinking: "Hey, hey, hey, we see an opening to
take away the Church's tax exempt statuts. Let's go for it. Then, finally, we
could cripple the Church's influence, growth and progress around the world."The gay marriage prop 8 thing is just a pawn. The end game is
destruction of the Church. Man, oh man what deep-seated bigotry is
alive and well in this the 21st century. The struggle for freedom from
religious bigotry goes on.
The Gay Activist claim that they're only seeking equal rights is seriously
disingenuous because they seek to turn society into Sodom and Gomorrah as Lot
experienced described in Genesis 19. The blessings and sanctity of the family
were established in the ancient law of marriage reflected in God giving Eve to
Adam to be his wife with the command to multiply and replenish the earth. The
sanctity of the family was further magnified in God's promise to Abraham that
through his posterity all the families of the earth would be blessed with the
gospel of salvation even life eternal. The emphasis is on Family not the
separate individual! This ideal can not, could not, and never could
be possible with any conceivable homosexual relationship. The sexual
relationship between gays violates and corrupts the sanctity and promise for
life eternal in holy marriage as blatantly as do adultery and fornication. To
make a homosexual couple a family would pervert, destroy and overthrow this
marvelous ancient law of eternal promise! Their lie is vividly
demonstrated in Massachusetts where parents seeking their parental right to
protect their child from being taught homosexual behavior in primary education
were thrown in jail.
The entire text of this article which appeared in Wed Nov.12, 2008 USA today.
It can found online at their website or at protect marriage. Note also that
Gladys Knight, a Mormom, sang at his benefit. We truly don't hate gays. See
this article for yourself and then email it to everyone you know. He is the
world's most famous gay man and he says civil partnerships are equal to
I know!Let's just vote on it...oh, wait...
The mormon church is getting exactly what it deserves. You spout bigotry and
that's what you get in return. The mormons have united the LGBT community more
than ever before. We're mad and we're not going to take it any more.
For years and years and years, anti-Mormon preachers, speakers and protestors
have been saying the LDS Church is fading away into oblivion. They claim the LDS
Church is no longer able to produce any kind of effective change in the society
at large and that eventually, there membership will disappear into just a few
pockets of people here and there.Well, if all this were true, then
how come Prop 8 passed? How come the LDS Church has become the main target of
gay activists? How come the LDS Church continues to receive large amounts of
press coverage?Simple, many people, whether they will admit or not,
truly fear the LDS Church. It's not an Osama Bin Laden type fear, but a fear
that, despite the best efforts of anti-mormons everyone, the LDS Church is
growing and will continue to grow. And as for Richard G. 4:04's
comment, as well as Henry Drummond 4:11's comment, YES, the LDS Church has sown
something. The have sown an awakeness to the world that they mean business, that
they don't shamlessly cow-town to the winds of political correctness, and that
even with small numbers, they can make a difference.
I think the more accurate assessment of the situation is that 5 judges awoke the
real sleeping giant - the voting public. Gay marriage has been voted down in
every state where the citizens have been given a voice. A full 29 states have
constitutional bans on gay marriage, and we're still counting.
The gay community is extremely fierce about protecting its viewpoints because
they feel like another group (the LDS church) is infringing upon their beliefs.
Their desire to protect their beliefs is commendable. However, they argue that
this all comes down to protecting their personal rights to marry and because
another group feels differently than them, they call that group a bunch of
hating bigots. This is where they begin to cross the line.On the
other hand, The LDS church rarely gets involved in political matters, unless it
is a moral issue in which the outcome could affect their beliefs as a church.
So, in response to Proposition 8, the church encouraged members in California
(not in Utah) to take a stand on an issue that could affect marriage, the core
belief in their church. Hmmmmm, both groups take a stand on an
important issue that they both believe is effecting their rights. When the
voice of the people decide the issue (not one church!) the gay-rights supporters
freak out, point fingers and start calling names, because the church was doing
the same thing that they are trying to do? Seems like a
contradiction to me! Who are the haters?
if you were at the demonstration today then you know the speeches were not anti
LDS. The focus was on marriage and equality. Speakers were explicit, as well,
in the need for respect of religious and other rights. Sheesh. Democracy is about protesting to make your voice heard. The fact tat someone
has a belief and has to deal with protesters because of the consequence of their
belief is also democracy and takes no ones right away. That is part of the
system. Stop whining pro-8 people. You won the election, now you see the
energizing effects of your vote. That is how the system works.
I am proud to support the GLBT efforts. This county has a strong history of
civil rights movements. I'm just glad I can play an active role in this one.
March on my friends, march on.
You are quite mistaken. These protests are exposing the nation to the radical
fringe of the gay rights movement. That portion that feels singling out
individuals at their workplace, boycotting church farms and programs that serve
the needy, and yes even committing acts of domestic terrorism are all fine in
the name of tolerance. The irony is so very rich. I promise you, we'll have
public opinion survey soon enough and you'll see that most Americans will be
turned off by the extremist tactics employed by gay rights activists. They are
the ones who stepped over the line. They preach a message that faith is the
equivalent of hate. That supporting the traditional definition of marriage is
some how an explicit act of hate. It is not. We are taught to hate the sin and
love the sinner. We love our gay brothers and sisters, they are the ones that
have reduced us to a catch-phrase. Their rhetoric is firing up nihilists and
fanning the flame's of this country's culture war. They would be wise to stop
blaming others for their defeat and consider how they managed to lose in one of
the most liberal states in the nation.
If every voting elegible California mormon voted against prop 8, it still would
have passed. California democrats had a significantly greater role in passing
prop 8. The LDS church had a very minority roll in prop 8. For a group that
already has full domestic partnership rights, you are falsely making yourself a
victom. Please stop the delusional claims.
The gays and lesbians need to realize that the Church of Jesus Christ bases its
doctrines on scriptures that are thousands of years old and on modern
revelation. The Bible leaves no doubt that marriage is to be between the sexes,
not within them. You cannot expect to challenge ancient laws and directions from
God by introducing changes that contradict these established rules. God calls
homosexuality an abomination. What homosexuals do is called sodomy since it is
recorded that Sodom was destroyed because of the practices of its inhabitants.
Will follows of Jesus Christ resist those who wish to call their actions
correct? Bet on it. Gays, lesbians, do what you want. That's your right. But it
is not marriage. It is not ordained of God and it must be fought against as
unacceptable to those who follow the teachings of God and His Son.
The LDS church is not confined just to the state of Utah. There are tons of
members in CA, so the church has a right to protect it's members there as much
as anywhere. "Protect" you say? That's right. If people would actually read the
legislation that Prop. 8 overturned then they would know that it actually would
have been a major violation of rights for LDS people to practice marraige in CA.
LDS members could have lost the right to perform temple marraiges in CA because
they would have been required to allow gay marraiges in LDS temples. This
violates LDS beliefs about who is allowed to enter their temples. As a result,
the temples in CA may have needed to close. This is why the church got involved,
to protect it's members rights, not because of hate. If gays want equal right,
that's fine, but not at the expense of others rights.
Has anyone considered that this may not be a vote against Gay Rights as much as
it is a vote against the Judges in CA who CONSTANTLY introduce laws and do not
go through the proper channels? I feel like the national media is missing this
important side of the issue.Not being from CA, but being in CA
during the vote and listening to the discussions, most people I interacted with
weren't anti gay, but "anti judges."
Same stuff different day. Why can't the GLBT's come up with something original.
We can fight back and forth all day long, but it does not negate
the fact that the California's voted and it did not go your way.What
kind of cheese can I find for your "Whine".
Why aren't any of these protestors showing up outside an Obama press conference?
He has stated on multiple occasions that he does not support gay marriage.
Where's the outrage?
Thanks for displaying your true colors.You've been the catalyst for
me to worker even harder in the future to prevent the indoctrination of my
children.Gay people, thank you again.
America is governed by the majority. We vote to elect a president,
representives, etc, does not the majority rule. Guess we should through out
Obama because the majority should not have their say. We need to be protected
from the Majority. Stenar, are you for real????
Disgusted,"I agree with Anonymous. Why shouldn't we be able to vote
on marriage between men and women. For all of you who are in straight marriages,
just imagine if one day your marriage was not viewed as legitimate. How would
that make you feel? Of course you would fight back."If that vote
targets a specific race, gender, sexual orientation, religion or any other
factor then it is a violation of our civil rights and everyone would be well
within their right to protest but that is a different issue because marriages of
homosexuals are not invalidated based on their sexual orientation, or their
race, or their gender, or their religion or any other factor. A gay person or a
straight person who marries a person of the opposite sex will not have their
marriages invalidated based on sexual orientation. A straight Mormon who married
a gay Lutheran will not have their marriages invalidated based on their religion
or sexual orientation.This is what makes the current definition of
marriage non-discriminatory. A woman can marry a man and a man can marry a woman
regardless of sexual orientation, gender, race, religion or any other factor.
This is from my good friend:Dear people who are persecuting the
Mormon Church for supporting Proposition 8,I can understand why
youre angry. However now that you are mad at us about this can we finally be off
the hook for polygamy? It hasnt been practiced for over 100 years in our church
and were still getting grief over it. It doesnt make sense for you to criticize
us for practicing an unorthodox form of marriage 100 years ago when that is what
you are fighting to have the right for today.
You are oh so mad, oh oh so mad, and you won't take it anymore...go line up in
the streets, yell, kick, scream, whatever you have to do to feel better... Why
don't you go line up on the borders of California, seems like the MAJORITY over
there voted yes, and they aren't Mormons....get a life...
Lets move on to some other news. This story is old and yes I posted this
expat:you might think about tiptoeing back into the closet.
Homosexuals are not now nor have ever been banned from marrying. Marriage is
DEFINED as the union of a man and a woman. Homosexuals are free to marry anyone
who is of the opposite sex.
Mormons have the right to disagree with a life style. They don't have the right
to interfere with some else's life."I disapprove of what you say, but I
will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire (1694 -
Stenar,"America is not a simple democracy. America is a republic.
This means the minority should be protected from the tyranny of the
majority."It also means that the majority must be protected from the
tyranny of the minority. It doesn't go all one way. In this instance it is the
minority who is trying to impose their will on the majority even though the
majority doesn't discriminate against them based on their race, gender, sexual
orientation, etc.Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said
"[Bear] always in mind that a nation ceases to be republican only when
the will of the majority ceases to be the law" and "We are sensible of the duty
and expediency of submitting our opinions to the will of the majority, and can
wait with patience till they get right if they happen to be at any time wrong."
He went on to say "Against such a majority we cannot effect [the gathering
them into the fold of truth] by force. Reason and persuasion are the only
practicable instruments" and "If the measures which have been pursued are
approved by the majority, it is the duty of the minority to acquiesce and
That is the dumbest comment that has ever been blogged. This issue is over
marriage defined between a man and woman. Not whether or not marriage can
happen. I am sick of hearing about all of this as a civil rights issue.
Everyone I ask cannot tell me how this is a civil rights issue. I have asked
both sides and the only thing I hear is marriage should be between anyone. Stop
comparing yourself to the African American movement. No one is beating or
killing gay or lesbians. You are not being shunned when you go into a
restaurant. You are not separated by a dividing line. The question is
marriage. It is defined as man and woman. No one is withholding benefits.
Nothing is being taken away except the sanctity of marriage being withheld. Sue
whomever you want. Marriage will always be between a man and a woman. Even if
some judges think differently. The power of procreation cannot happen between
two women and two men. Last thing, stop addressing this as the Mormon's
fault. No matter how much you protest in Utah or at any other Mormon church or
temple it will not change the church's stance.
If the only thing at issue were the civil rights of gay people, I would never
have voted yes for Prop 8. But, that is not the issue. You lost, and you
cannot bring yourselves to accept that all of your Hollywood money could not
overturn the people of Florida, Arizona, and California. The people have
spoken. See you in 2012.
Actions have consequences. When you step into the fire, you should expect to
get burned. We showed those Dixie Chicks what it means to be a
citizen and speak out. Drive 'em out of business. Burn their CD's. Show them
who's boss.Keep following our righteous example. We showed you
exactly how to do it.
Wow! Can someone please tell me which constitutional right is being
violated by a law the protects traditional marriage? I'm not quite seeing it.
IF there is a federal constitutional right involved, then why waste
all the time and agony currently being undertaken? Why not just get a case
before the U.S. Supreme Court and have the Court declare unconstitutional the
law the voters in California just approved. Simple. IF there isn't
a federal constitutional right involved, then the people may pass a law limiting
marriage to the traditional definition (which they have just done) and, given
the fluidity of the California initiative process, other people may propose a
different initiative and have that passed. Again, it's simple.Until
then, why doesn't the majority rule?
So why did Proposition 8 not go the way of the gay rights people in California?
I think that it could only be those big bad Mormons! I mean, what were we
thinking, allowing others to make a choice and vote on an issue? How silly.
Certainly everyone who wasn't Mormon and voted against the gay rights people
were brainwashed by those naughty boys in white with tags. If it weren't for
those big bad Mormons, surely gay rights would be different in California right
The fact is that the voters in 3 states voted on an issue that was left to the
voters. It's interesting that homsexuality is being viewed as the same as
racial prejudice. Last I heard, sexual orientation isn't a minority. You chose
a life style that is far different than the norm. You don't qualify as a
couple, you are not the norm. You are also not a minority that needs
protecting. Marriage is a means of joy where families are created through the
gift of procreation. I don't think that's possible in a homosexual
relationship. I guess that's something that you will just have to get used to.
Hence the difference in marriage and civil unions.
Homosexual marriage threatens traditional marriage in that once it becomes legal
homosexuals will use that power to legitimize homosexuality in churches,
schools, etc. This is not a lie. Go ahead, any of you homosexuals
(especially now that you are smoking angry at the LDS church) and HONESTLY tell
us that the homosexual lobby doesn't have the destruction of organized religion
on their agenda. This is what will happen when they decide to sue.Go ahead, any of you homosexuals, and HONESTLY tell us that indoctrination of
our children will not take place once homosexual marriage is legalized by the
state. It's already taking place in Massachusetts...google it.Regarding your slam on polygamy:What do you think will happen when
homosexual marriage is legalized? Use the same arguments for homosexual
marriage and HOW CAN YOU DENY POLYGAMISTS THE SAME RIGHT??? Legalization of
homosexual marriage is a dangerous slippery slope that you yourself don't want
to walk down (as evidenced by your concern about polygamy).Most
Americans really could care less what people do with their private lives. But
there is a line drawn when we realize equal "marriage" is a not what it seems.
It's a power play. Pure and simple.
I hope the church takes a beatin' on this one. They have chosen...poorly.
The attach on LDS members and buildings has slowed in LA a bit because of the
backlash here. Many people who have not necessarily been very friendly to the
LDS have called to thank them for their actions. Pastors have asked their
congregations to call and thank there LDS friends. The Gay and
Lesbian leaders here have suddenly realized that their actions have been counter
productive to their cause. They are now viewed as mean, vindictive, intolerant
and vulgar. Beating up old women and using filthy speech in the presence of
children has definitely not helped their cause. The media may be on the side of
the Gays and Lesbians in this instance but the people are not.I
suspect Prop 8 would pass by a more substantial margin today than on Nov. 4.
At the core of this debate is the separation of church and state. The Book of
Mormon warns against laws governing beliefs that would "bring men onto unequal
grounds" (Alma 30:7). At the same time, churches need to be protected from
government intervention that would infringe upon the church's practices
(providing that these practices are not harmful and do not take away the rights
of individual's outside of the church). Ironically, the solution to this debate
resides within the current practices of the LDS church. Currently, the church
acknowledges a "tiered" marriage system consisting of a "civil" or "legal"
marriage and a "higher" marriage system based upon the religious teachings of
the church (Temple Marriage). By separating the "legal" and "spiritual"
compenents of marriage, the legal rights and responsibilities afforded by
government recognized marriages can be extended to all individuals while church
sanctioned marriages could be controlled by the religious institutions offering
them as part of their practices. Churches would have control over the conditions
of entering into these religiously governed marriages (e.g., by limiting to
heterosexual couples). Ultimately, the church could then focused on
strengthening members through the meaning and sanctity of the religious aspects
of the marriage.
Gay community? Why does the LDS church and it's member think someone who
supports individual rights, which also means yes gay people, are they themselves
gay?I am a married hetro sexual female who stands by the bible verse
judge less shall be judged. I accept this is not my place nor anyone else on
this beautiful planet to judge another. Perhaps members of LDS faith should stop
reading the Book of Mormon for a moment and re educate themselves on the Bible
and what it means to say you are a christian. Love only creates more
love. Anger and hate are the destruction pieces of any civilization.
If the press wouldn't give them so much attention, maybe they would shut up and
Can't the so-called blacklists work both ways? Those of us who deeply believe
marriage between a man and a woman is the best way to strengthen a civilization
(not to mention perpetuate the population - has anyone taken biology?) can send
support and business to the people who voted their conscience. The sleeping
giant actually represents those of us who are so busy trying to keep our
communities together, despite efforts from those who just want their way
regardless of consequences. We don't have time to protest, because we are
parents and teachers and community volunteers picking up the pieces of a very
threatened society. I am not threatened by anyone in the GLBT population, and I
know there are many good people who have been hurt. But they ARE free to pursue
their lifestyle, just as I am free to pursue my traditional lifestyle. Let's
show our support instead of fighting!
I am so concerned about al the demonstrations that i tossed and turned last-nite
and didn't fall asleep untill 9 p.m.but i'm sure i'll get over it!!!
why can't i say God at graduation?why can't i say in God we trust during
the preamble...in fact, why did we completely get rid of saying the preamble?Why can't we say a prayer at sport games anymore?Why can't we say a
prayer at graduation anymore?GAYS believe in being OPEN minded- as
long as it is THEIR way!LIBERALS believe in being OPEN minded- as long as
it is THEIR way!When it comes to the average God-fearing person...our
rights have quickly been taken away!
We are OVER the gay response to the vote. Proposition 8 has passed and we are
not out celebrating in the streets we are being very respectful unlike those who
did not get what they voted for!! YES, PROP 8 HAD DONORS BUT THE
RESULTS OF THIS VOTE IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE DONATIONS!! IT WAS A LOT OF WORK!!
Yes, many disagreed with us during the process and we responded with "we respect
your position" and then we moved on.I think the gays are upset that
religious people came together for this cause and Prop 8 passed. I
can't emphasize the amount of hours that were donated by MANY PEOPLE of MANY
RELIGIONS! So please leave the Mormon Church alone!P.S. Thank you
Elton John for speaking out on "civil partnerships".
WHy is LDS the prime target of LGBT protests?Cuz ya wrote the initiative
AND gave 4 of every 5 dollars for the Yes on Prop 8.If ya can't take the
BLOWBACK, speak to your elders, and thank them for your increased property and
sales taxes, when 6 BILLION dollar Utah tourism TANKS.I hadn't held
any animosity towards Robert Redford and Sundance organizers until NOW. If
Sundance uses Cinemark as their main venue, who donated heavily to Prop
8....EVERY film at the festival will be BOYCOTTED too.Cinemark you can say
buh bye to ALL LGBT patrons in EVERY state.
There are people on both sides of the argument who are out of line. "Stop the
hate" is right. Stop disrespecting gay people. Stop disrespecting religious
people who disagree with gay people. Stop vandalizing churches. Stop
persecuting gays. We've all got problems. Each of us has a
responsibility to live our lives as best we can. And we should be helping each
other out along the way, not bringing each other down. If
homosexuality is a sin, isn't it also a sin to fail to love one's neighbor?
Certainly, we should vote according to our beliefs. But in the daily challenges
of life, we should be kind to one another. If we disagree, we should be civil
to one another. The religious community should seek to understand
the gay community. Ask, "Why do they believe the way they do? What kind of
people are they?" Don't just call them sinners. We are all imperfect.Likewise, the gay community should seek to understand the religious community.
Ask, "What are their beliefs? What kind of people are they?" Don't just call
them bigots. We are all imperfect.We cannot let our devotion to one
particular belief trump our basic human decency.
Does anyone wonder why the state of California is burning down today? God and
good will prevail.
This is not a disagreement about supposed civil rights. At the present "civil
unions" grant all the "rights" available to any California couple.This is an argument over the re-definition of the word "marriage", and by
extension, the word "family". Despite all the rhetoric, hundreds and hundreds
of posts on each related story, and all the name calling and all the anger and
defensive and offensive words, what this argument comes down to is wheather or
not we should re-define a very old word and the conotation which it has acquired
over many thousands of years.I say "No, we should not redefine
'marriage'."Certainly the world has come up with many new nouns to
describe people, places and things in todays culture. If the homosexual
community wants a word to describe two adult humans of the same sex living
together, with the understanding that they are having sexual relations, that is
fine. No one is trying to keep them from coining their own word and using it.
With continual use it will probably be included in the dictionary eventually.The word "marriage" all ready has a definition and I believe that most
Americans are not willing to change it.
I read over and over that people think gay men and women only want to get
married so that the straight community will be forced to "validate" their lives.
??????? A smarter person would realize that if the gay community really cared
what anyone else thought they'd all be huddled at home hiding in the closet.
I am so glad I left UT. Why do Mormons think they can act this way? Of course
the gays are upset... they are being treated like animals. Straight people have
pretty much screwed up the institution of marriage in the last 50 years... let
the gays have a go at ti.
I have a few cooment to make. Probably already done in earlier posts but I have
to have my say anyway.First if the Church (LDS) did not stand up oppose
gay marriages, then we would be hypocrits. Second, Mormons make up about what?
1% of California population and 52% of the people said no to gay marriage.
Doesn't sound like we were the majority of the voters but a minority. Third, I
think it's ironic that a group of people is speaking out about hate using hate.
Gays are just a bunch of hypocrits. Lastly, we don't hate gays, just what they
do. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Over 100 years ago, the government and
majority of the people said no to plural marriage, did we protest and call
others hatemongers? No, we accepted the will of the majority. Plural marriage
has basis in the Bible, homosexuality does not. Remember sodom and gomorrah?
wow, "some guy" that was probably the best post I have seen in Months if not
years. Thank you for showing there are still reasonable people in the world and
that reasonable people can disagree without being nasty.
To those who say gays have the right to marry, just not to someone of the sex
that they want to. How would you feel if I as a gay man decided to marry your
daughter or your sister? Do you think that would be fair to her?As
they said at the rally today..."There are thousands of gay people in Utah who
are today legally married, their spouses just don't know about it." They will
eventually and families will be torn apart. But of course since you think we
should marry someone we don't want to, it's ok.How's that for family
The LDS Church DID NOT give any money to the Yes on Proposition 8 campaign. Get
your "facts" straight, Mark. It was individual people who donated their time and
money to the cause. This was their legal right to do so. Do not harass and
target people who were exercising their right to vote. Why punish the LDS
Church, Utah and it's tourism industry for something that the people of
California VOTED for? It makes no sense. Obviously, all these people
who are exercising hatred towards the LDS Church and Utah do not have their
The caravan is moving on. All you antis and protestors best get ou the the way.
Where exactly is the discrimination? No law has said that gays or lesbians
cannot marry. The laws have only said that marriage has to be between one man
and one woman. The law is equally applied to all and doesn't select a certain
group to grant or deny any particular rights to. Even if I wanted to marry a
person of my same gender for whatever reason, whether it be inheritance or
whatever, I am denied the state's sanction of such a marriage. Gays can also
marry any other consenting adult of the opposite gender, for whatever reason
they want. The argument that gays are being denied the right to
marry who they love shifts the point from a rational argument of denial of
rights to more of a play on emotions. Civil unions grant all the same rights.
If marriage becomes classified as a fundamental right and the decision of the
state as to who can marry is based on marrying who one loves, there could
ultimately be no restrictions on marriage. Any argument currently presented
i.e. bigotry, by the opponents of Proposition 8 could be easily used to push the
removal of any restrictions or mores society has.
Threats and intimidation are wrong, period. Regardless of your position on the
issue, you need to win by convincing the people of the merit of your position.
Regardless of what you might say about civil rights struggles for blacks and
women, those rights were given because a majority of the people were convinced
of the merit of their positions (i.e. constitutional amendments). Instead of
trying to force others to believe the same as you, convince them. NO more
temper-tantrums and no more threats or violence.
Stenar - Of course marriage is rooted in religion.Civil Marriage Is
between a man and a woman outside the church context.Back in the 60's
"marriage" became passe', unnecessary, and irrelevant outside the context of
religion! "Who needs a piece of paper?", we ALL said.In my opinion,
"marriage" IS a religious term and should not be used outside the context of a
man and a woman....think of another term...other than marriage...oh, you already
have one??..then what's the point??? Must be a MONEY thing...ah yes, the
almighty something for nothing motivation disguised again as the irrelevant, and
selfish fulfilment of self and satisfying of your own selfish desires. Marriage
is the LEAST self-serving thing that can be done in life because you both give
up yourselves in the rearing of CHILDREN. It is NOT your civil right to
get more of my tax money for nothing.It is my understanding that 44 states
voted FOR the ban, so redouble your efforts, without the violence, cz thats just
hurting your cause, and try again next time, like all the rest of us have to do,
in pursuit of those goals important to each of us individually in our lives.
Gays and lesbians say they want equal rights, but what about equality in
American culture?A few seasons ago, the CBS cop show CSI aired an
episode in which the killer was a gay person. CBS' phone lines and e-mail
accounts went hey wire. The gays were angry that they were portrayed in such a
negative way on television. The same thing happened when movies like "Basic
Instinct" and "Showgirls" came out.When Greg Louganis, the gay
Olympic diver, wrote his autobiography, he drew ire from many of his fellow gays
for discussing how he had been in abusive relationships with other men. So, once same-sex marriage is legal, will we see TV programs discussing
domestic violence in gay and lesbian reltionships, like we do heterosexual ones?
Will we see news reports about sexual abuse in a same-sex marriage household?
DON'T BET ON IT! The gays and lesbians want the good, without the
bad. Plain and simple!
It wasn't all bad. A lot of mormons were separated from their money. Hitting
them in the wallet always works.
Here's the answer. Let them live in "Paradise" for both. Let all the gay men get
married and have one of the Hawaiian Islands all to themselves. Same thing for
the gay women. They can all be sooo happy expressing their "rights." In a couple of generations there won't be anymore problem!
Article quote: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' involvement in
the issue has turned Utah into "ground zero" for the gay civil rights movement,
Jeff Key, a gay Iraq war veteran, told the crowd gathered at the Salt Lake
City-County Building...."You called us out," Key said. "YOU did this."Really? Mormons are making you move your feet and wave your arms and paint
antagonistic signs and jump up and down and yell and look foolish?"Mormons" did that? Wow, and here I thought you were an intelligent human
being who was capable of freedom of thought and action.Silly
Can't we all just get along? I'm sure people wont ski and come to Utah because
of this. That's sad. I guess they'll have to settle for Texas. It passed! It
passed in a lot of states. Your liberal friends are the ones to thank for it.
Don't be mad at democracy. It's a good thing. Bring it to vote again. Lets see
if your liberal judges will do what that the people want. Look at who voted.
The mormons weren't the ones to pass it. It was the other millions of people
who did. That's what you do though pick and choose who you want to discriminate
against because they don't follow your views. Nice!!!
The world won't soon forget what the mormon cult's hateful history is about,
denying membership and equality to African-Americans until VERY late in the 20th
century, campaigning against simple equality for gays, Warren Jeffs who emulated
Joseph Smith. most americans know that mormonism is simply a well-funded cult.
you have indeed awakened a sleeping giant and you will now reap what you've
2000 --- Prop 22.. YES2008 --- Prop 8 .. YES20?? --- Shall we dance
again? Why can't the pro gay's understand that WE DONT WANT GAY
MARRIAGE in California? It seems that the east coast is calling for you. Move
there, or be happy with domestic parterships here. I've never been more
proud to be a Mormon. Bring on the pro gay marriage props. We'll fight it again
Story quote: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' involvement in
the issue has turned Utah into "ground zero" for the gay civil rights movement,
Jeff Key, a gay Iraq war veteran, told the crowd gathered at the Salt Lake
City-County Building...."You called us out," Key said. "YOU did this."Ahhhh....the great "It's not my fault" argument.Dude, that works
up until you're about 6.
The church is reeling from this. STOP. All the members posting here just make it
worse and worse. STOP. I can't beleive how the church leadership and members
have reacted to this! You should be ashamed. I love my church but this is just
to much, way to much.
Just as some homosexuals hope this issue has awakened their "sleeping giant", I
am hopeful this ordeal will open up an honest discussion about homosexuality
itself, its origins, nature, and consequences. My instincts tell me the more
they continue to rankle others, the more willing people will be to tackle the
issue. Since the APA removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in
the early 1970s, mainly due to political pressure, research on the matter all
but screeched to a halt, except for a small cadre of mostly gay researchers
desperate to find proof that the lifestyle they lead is pre-engineered, and
therefore perfectly natural and justified.Some of the studies that
have been performed, however, are fairly interesting. One such study, done
several years ago, showed that among identical twins, if one twin was
homosexual, there was approximately a 52% chance the other twin would be gay.
Thats curious. If one twin is gay, and his/her genes are identical to the other
twin, and sexuality is determined by genetics, one would think the correlation
would be 100%.But discussing the science is unpopular nowadays, with
more emphasis focused on silencing all discussion by intimidating those who
On a different note, I'm puzzled by the gay community's argument that society
should simply live and let live. What do heterosexuals care if homosexuals
marry, they ask? Homosexuals aren't trying to impinge on heterosexual lifestyles
or church rights, after all. But this argument has already been shown to be
flatly untenable. Take, for instance, a recent court case in
Connecticut. A Protestant church refused to permit a lesbian couple to use their
building to perform ceremonies. The couple took the church to court, challenging
their tax exempt status, and surprise, surprise, they won. In addition, look at
the heat the Boy Scouts of America has been under in recent years for their
opposition to permitting homosexual leaders into their ranks. The city of
Philadelphia booted them from a city building that they had leased for years
because they wouldn't budge. Examples as these plainly show why non-gays care so
much about the issue. This isn't simply about granting homosexuals the right to
marry, its about precluding the negative fallout from such an action, which is
the eventual impingement on the rights on organizations to marry whom they
please, and to teach morality according to their own precepts.
Wow, the gay community really missed the reason why I voted for 102 in AZ. I
votes yes becasue I felt that my beliefs were being atacked and my ability to
practice my religion was slowly being taken away. This reaction is reinforcing
that.I don't believe that Mormons or anyone else(with some exceptions i'm
sure) who voted yes, hate the gay community, I think they just felt that it was
time to step up and hold to thier morals. What right does anyone have to
protest my vote?I hope that EVERYONE can take a step back and realize that
we are still children of our Heavenly Father and thus brothers and sisters.
Someday we will come together again as friends and neighbors and let peace
prevail. Sooner better than later!
EVERYONE has the right to marry.... as long as it's not with someone as the same
anatomy as them. This isn't a civil rights issue. No one is being
discriminated against. Gay people do deserve equal rights, which they already
have. However, they do not deserve special rights to accomodate their chosen
Prop 8 died on election day. let's move on people.
We want to marry because of love...love not "inheritance or whatever"...therein
lies the discrimination, we are not able to marry the person we love because we
It is a magnificent thing to live in a marvelous country, and to have the right
to think and vote as I wish, and to use every talent and ability to convince
others of my beliefs if not done by coersion or force. I believe that marriage
should be defined as between a man and a woman. I went to the polls and used my
agency to vote according to my beliefs and my conscience in support of Prop 8.
I did not harrass or condemn those who voted otherwise. I personally did not
initiate this opportunity to vote. The opportunity was presented and I voted.
I have gay relatives and friends who live in lawful "unions", and have the
rights I have. I do not feel it appropriate to redefine marriage to be anything
other than between a man and a woman, for the protection of our society and
The LDS doesn't understand what equal protection under the law is and has
behaved un-Americanly. Gay or str* -- we won't put up with it!
Why is it that so many mormon retorts contain the phrases: "get a life", "get a
clue", or, "get real". It seems like such a grade school comeback. Is this the
equivalent of mormon swearing? Just wondering.
"All that is needed for evil to succeed is that decent human beings do nothing".
- Edmund C. Burke The Majority rules, Proposition 8 succeeded!
The only thing I get out of this so far is that these Gay Marriage people are
SORE LOSERS.Had they Won would I have the right to make such a noise
over their winning, think not. My protest would be considered hate speech and
anti gay marriage. They would be right on the 2nd. However i believed that Gay
Marriage was wrong way before I joined the ChurchSo according to
them this Democracy thing is only supposed to work if it works for them. I do
not think so. I would bert that the Church has good security in
place and that they are beyond ready to protect property and take care of
business, if need be.This has nothing to do with Church and State.
You Vote according to your belief system and what you feel is right. You give Mormons and lots of other Christians way to much credit on this
The economy is up in flames and this gets more air time than any issue. Who
cares? Move to Massachussets if it's such a big problem. That's why states are
allowed to make their own laws - competitive advantage.
Homophobes, chill out: Gays have been around forever, let them live in peace and
respect. Gays, chill out: the people have spoken and voted against
defining Gay people as married. What will protesting LDS facilities
do ? Will it make it reverse ?What if it went in favor
of the Gay population, would it be right for "heteros" to protest Gay groups and
their assemblies ? What about the other groups, like the Knights of
Columbus and anyone else voting against Gay marriage ? I'll bet more non-LDS
voted against Gay marriage than LDS members. Face it, the majority
won out on this issue, that's what a democracy is supposed to do; vote on issues
and candidates, then move on. I am a "hetero" and do respect those
who chose the Gay lifestyle. My deceased uncle, whom I loved dearly, was my role
model as a "Man's Man", was Gay. His surviving partner is an "uncle" to me as
much as my blood relation uncles. But if the populace voted against
Gay marriage, lets just move on and deal with it. Let's live the lives we choose
and respect one another.
Actually, liberal use of the words: "fetch", "fetchin", "crud", and "flippin"
fit the category of LDS swearing. "Get a clue", "get real" and "get
a life" are phrases chosen to express emotional feelings, rather than well
Just because the LDS church has taken a stand on what they beleive doesn't mean
they are bigots or haters of the gay and lesbian world. If they feel that
marriage between man and woman is a sacred thing, why shouldn't they take a
stand? They can love PEOPE without agreeing with them. The country's definition
has always been between male and female. Some beleive it should stay that way.
That's a right.
The Supreme Court interprets the state constitution and found it lacking so the
people, within their rights, change by amendment, the state constitution. That
is democracy.In time, the people will vote in favor of gay marriage
because the further we get away from faith the more worldly we get. Ultimately,
this country will fall to its knees and then watch out.The Judgement
that will follow will surprise the people that think God condones this.
The majority in Massachusetts voted against gay marriage but guess who
reinstated it?...Judges...How is it that these activist judges can
overturn the majority vote?!
What could actually lead a society to extinction? GET REAL....
I come from a very devote Mormon family and I have a brother who is gay.
Because myself and my family are in favor of Prop 8 and for Marriage being
between a man and woman doesn't mean we love our brother any less. So to those
of you who say Mormons are hateful towards gays...well my family and I disprove
that theory. We love our brother dearly and always will. But because we love
him doesn't mean we have to love his lifestyle or agree with it. And this is
not a civil rights issue. I have never seen my brother discriminated
against...last time I checked gays aren't required to sit at the back of the bus
or denied access to restarants. This is a MORAL issue. Since when is it
unlawful for a church to encourage its member to become active in issues. The
church stated its stance but did not tell its members how to vote. I am
guessing there were other churchs who encouraged their members to vote no on
Prop 8. Whats the difference? There isn't any. Protest all you want but do
not harass or vandalized our properties because of our beliefs.
Boy, there are a LOT of badly educated people here. We do NOT live
in a democracy. The majority does not get to decide everything in this
country.Turn off the TEVO and occasionally crack a book.
Be it known that the list of "financial contributors" is a matter of public
record, and you will NOT find a dime from the LDS church. Prop 8 was approved by
a democratic vote of the people--only a minority of which were LDS--some of whom
contributed their own money--just like the opponents did. What HYPOCRITS to ask
for DUE PROCESS and then not accept the outcome which was passed twice--and NOW
are resorting to TERRORISM--my nieces were afraid to go to church in CA because
of the threats to local members. Shame on the extremist gay protestors who
threaten hatred and harm. No one should be threatened because they have an
opposing view. 70% of the Black population voted YES on 8, as well as over 80%
of the Hispanic pop.
Keep it up, gays. Let your bigotry and hatred come through. That will help the
rest of us toss out any compassion we had for you and solidify our convictions
regarding truth and the sanctity of marriage.
To Lets just get along:If my "hetero" nephew described me as
"choosing" the gay lifestyle I'd be ashamed of him.
Every time there is a natural disaster, religious people love to attribute it to
divine punishment for something or other. Ask Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
how well that goes over, because you sound just like them. That's embarrassing
company to keep.
Those who have not been wronged would have us believe, that they have. They are
the hate mongers and the civil disobedient. They are the ones putting life,
limb, livelihood, and property at risk of any who don't agree with them. They
are the ones who claim that rights have been violated when they have not. The
people have spoken in California and other places too. A choice to keep a
fundamental institution in society; in place and sacred.It is common
that the lesser portion of the population will choose that which is wrong. But
most of the time the majority will choose what is right. The great
tragedy is the fact that a minority who is not getting their way in a
majoritarian government will recruit and exploit corrupt judges to forsake their
role as guardians of the law and protectors of the minority into dictators
issuing fiats: pressing minority values upon the mjority against their
collective will. Propostition 8 was a victory for the majority to
check the endless corruption of our laws by spineless judges and selfish
I am so glad I'm not gay!! Go Mormons, Prop 8, and Utah!!
Get this issue out of the news. Thats what you usually do D-News. There are much
bigger fish to fry than talk about this stupid subject and issue. Of all the
real important things going on right now it seems this is #1 in Utah. Get rid of
it and let it die. The majority of us want to talk about what affects our daily
lives, and future. This is the problem I have the media, wanting to talk about
small hometown issues.
OK, so if everybody comes to Utah and helps to boycott all the gay films at
Sundance, do you really believe that will teach Mormons a lesson they will never
forget? Is this funny to anyone else?
How is this news? I've got one, 100's go to church on Sunday, 100's get up a go
to work every day, Who cares if 100's protest?
I find it very interesting that it's OK to malign and attack the LDS church and
it's members...Mormons(not all LDS voted yes) were only a small fraction of the
people that voted Yes on 8. It's not politically correct to protest against
other religions or races(nor should it be!), but put down the Mormons...that's
just fine! If I choose to donate money to a cause I have every right to do
so(everyone does) without a witch hunt afterwards, without fear and coercion
trailing me. It is not about hate! I don't understand how a reasonably
intelligent person cannot understand the concept of loving the sinner and not
the sin! Tolerance means living side by side peacefully despite differences, it
does not mean to tolerate every behavior.
Judging from what I've seen here, common courtesy has become disturbingly
uncommon. Is it too much to ask that you treat others like thinking human
beings, rather than some vast force hell-bent on destroying everything good?I'm a straight man, who is an uncompromising supporter of gay rights. I
do believe that marriage ought to be a right granted to any two consenting
adults who want to express a deep, lifelong commitment.I am not
alone. Those who paint the gay rights movement as an active, perverted few
forcing their will on all the good, decent people, need to just stop. Polling
suggests that between 30 and 45% of Americans support same-sex marriage. But
that fraction is much higher among young adults, and in time I believe that the
idea of gay marriage will be greeted with a resounding yawn.Until
then, I suppose the shouting will continue. But proponents should take heart:
In 2000, a similar referendum in California was voted down by 60% of the
population, not 52%. At that rate, a ballot initiative to repeal 8 could be
successful in 2012.They really don't let people say much here, do
they? 200 words? Ick.
Far from showing that Californias Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of
marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the
crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair
I agree with Scott. I think that Gays need to be reminded that Gods will is
that marriage remain only between a man and a woman. Much like children who need
their parents to teach them right from wrong or protect them from hurting
themselves, I believe many of us depend on religion to teach us Gods ways; the
Bible is the word of God and it has a great history of people who followed Gods
commandments and those that have strayed and embraced the ways of the world.
The outcome was usually not good for the latter (i.e. Sodom & Gomorrah, Genesis
19:24) Following Gods commandments is a recipe for a happier and more peaceful
life. I think that the passage of Prop 8 not only has made it clear that the
line been drawn in the sand but also that Gods commandments do not have an
Somebody please help me understand. I've been watching the latest news regarding
the passage of proposition 8. What I don't understand is that the Gay and
Lesbian communities around the nation are rising up in what can be perceived as
in-tolerant, hateful, destructive, selfish, disgraceful behavior towards
supporters of proposition 8. Yet, during these so called "rallies" they call
others bigots, hateful, lacking tolerance, and every other foul and hateful
word. They refuse to believe or be tolerant of others beliefs. They call people
like me a bigot because I believe in the sanctity of marraige, because I believe
marraige is ordained of God, because I believe families are a fundamental
foundation of society.Somebody please help me understand why my beliefs
cannot be "tolerated" but I must "tolerate" the beliefs of others?
Marriage is PRIVELEDGE not a RIGHT!!!! You are not guaranteed the right to marry
in the Constitution. STOP TRYING TO RE-WRITE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!Accept what a MAJORITY has spoken and move on!!!!!!
I was told many times in my youth that liberalism was more than an ideology, it
was a form of mental Illness, i believe that now, more than I ever have in my
life. you cannot reason with a liberal, no matter how hard you try. they all
seem to have a one track mind. their way or the highway. so it,s useless to try
to convince them that they are fighting a lost cause. they have lost two times
at the polls, and it's much easier to play the blame game than to face the fact
that the people have spoken out about their life style pertaining to same gender
marriage,and that they had better settle for the other alternative, legal
rights. one with the other. you wont get your way with temper tantrums
If you look at the other side, millions of dollars were spent on the no on 8
campaign also In fact I believe a million was by Bruce Bastian right here in
Utah, out of state funds came from all over from both sides, thats life, live
jIMMY SAYS : tHE CHURCH IS THE BEST AND mAN BELONGS TO WOMAN IN A
We shall overcome. And never never never ever give up.
Why doesn't anyone debate the real issue?Is Homosexuality right or
wrong? Answer that one honestly and move on. 2% of the population
does not make society, we all do by choosing what we tolerate. The moment we as
a society give an inch they'll want it all. Don't believe me? Just look around
and notice how much we have allowed to be "tolerated". This is not about rights.
If something is wrong then there are no rights. This is just one of many issues
that we let ruin our lives by the attitude of "live and let live". Religion is
involved (as it should be)because it is a moral issue. If we are truely a
christian nation we would not allow the sin but help the sinner. It seems that
we want to do both. Tolerate the sin and sinner! Again I ask, is it right or
wrong? Fight over that. Not about some so called "rights" that never were.Who are we? Good people doing nothing? Where are our Morals?
It can not be both, YOU are either for HOMOSEXUALITY or YOU are not.
No live and let live attitude. It does not work.This isn't Hate!
Deseret News: This statement in your article is misleading and irresponsible:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement Friday in
response to recent demonstrations and in some cases vandalism at church
buildings." You have implied that the vandalism to Church property that has been
reported has taken place during demonstrations. This is inaccurate. Shame on you
for twisting the truth like that. As we all know, this is an extraordinarily
emotional issue; as an LDS-owned paper, I would think you'd go out of your way
to demonstrate journalistic integrity and avoid slanted misleading statements
There's a line in the hit song "American Pie" that I'm reminded of when I see
the actions of the Gay and Lesbian protesters:"And I saw Satan
laughing with delight ... "
Let's cry like a bunch of babies until we get our way. The majority voted wrong
because they didn't vote the way we wanted them to. If anybody has a view that
is different than mine they are haters. Get a life people, you make yourselves
look more idiotic every day.
Dear me - what venom. I don't see discrimination at all. A gay may has every
right to marry a woman just like a straight man has every right to marry a woman
(please adjust for lesbians). I do believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Saints finds this issue very important. They are organized and expressed their
opinion within the bounds of law. Those opposed to Proposition 8 had the same
opportunity to organize and gather funds from the entire universe if possible.
The political process played itself out with this issue.I surely
don't want to give advice to the militant gay rights effort; but perhaps this
age old advice might help:You attract more bees with honey - not
Sodomy is wrong. This is an easy question.
Why should they give up? If Prop 8 had failed, the christian conservative right
would have tried to get it banned again. No doubt about this. What if african
americans had given up when the people spoke? Public opinion is changing and
old bigoted people are dying out. Keep trying gay and lesbian community! I
understand where you are coming from, and I hope that people will start to open
their minds and their hearts. Love you!! -yes I am LDS and I am
not happy with their involvement in this issue.
Nobody is trying to "Take Away Rights". The Church has not said, "The Gay can't
be Gay". It's a sin, and it and it's members, and God (See Scriptures) disdain
Homosexual sex, but nobody is trying to "Take Rights Away". Marriage is a right
between a man and a woman, in essense isn't the "Gay" community trying to strip
the rights of the "Straight" community by taking away our right to be married as
husband and wife? It would be like trying to put a Gay Guy in the Miss America
Pageant, It doesn't work! IT JUST DOESN'T WORK! This is Satan working on the
destruction of the USA, and the Dumbing Down of Societal Morals. Nothing more,
and nothing less. The Gay Community are nothing more than pawns in an eternal
war, and they are unfortunately on the losing side. I for one empathize with
them, and feel sorry for them, and feel thier pain. I also know they are hard
wired this way from something, but help is available once they get through their
Here's what I don't get. Gays want Mormons to stop being what they claim "being
discriminated against" when they're being the hypocrites and they're vandalizing
church buildings, sending hate mail and warning members to "watch their backs".
Who's discriminating now? Last I checked Mormons had just as much right to voice
their opinions, and yet if someone doesn't agree w/ us we don't go vandalize
their place of worship and send them death threats. It was more than the Mormon
church who stood up to this proposition. If you wanted to be treated equal, then
start treating everyone else equal and maybe then you'll find the problem lies
in how you guys are treating others.
Eons?! Really, wow that's a long time
"Hundreds" of demonstrators., wow. Why is it when they demonstrate it is ok,
but when other people put their agenda forward, it is pushing their views on
everyone. Always the double standard.
So, the Mormons did all of this? What about the 52% of Californians who
actually voted for proposition 8 over two weeks ago? What about the more than
60% of Californians who voted to define marriage between a man and a woman over
8 years ago? Why don't you mention the Catholic church, or the African American
community? If you are going to place blame for all of your troubles at the feet
of someone, atleast place the blame at the correct feet.
Lets look at the facts! Proposition 8 passes legally and while the Gays protest
and destroy property legally owned, the Mormons are helping to feed the hungry
and care for the needy and those burned out in California! Having friends of
both persausion I remind my friends who are Gay that the Mormons have suffered
in this country worse than you could ever imagine, but yet they still reach out
to others! Including those who are Gay! Hum, makes you wonder what is a rational
arguement? Express your anger through the vote or the Nation splits then where
will you be? Lastly not only Mormons voted on this issue! So did Baptists,
Methodists, Jews, Anglos, Hispanics, African Americans and Asians? Amazing they
are all minorities too who became the majority! Think about it!
everyone has the right to vote anyway they please. the church members are the
ones who voted for it not the church itself. the church doesn't tell its members
how to vote. they say be sure to vote. what is going on now isn't helping the
gay cause one bit
Anonymous: well guess what. there is not way that the temple marriages can be
stopped nor should they be.
I am glad that the ideals, morals and standards of the definition of marriage
has been upheld. All this talk of rights comparisons and "what if" hetero-
marriages were threatened is irrelevant..Might I remind you all of a story about
Adam & Eve. God gave them the ability to marry. He chose to make man and woman
to compliment and strengthen each other. God is the same yesterday, today and
forever. That will never change. Marriage is a God given union. If you
want to live by the worldly rules, that are constantly being changed to market
evil to the world, then have your civil unions and be at peace. But when you
play by God's rules, as some day we all will, the terms of marriage have been
explicitly defined. Perspective please.This ruling in CA has nothing
to do with the Mormon's, except that they were some of the tools to get the
voice of the people heard. This isn't about bigotry or hate. This has to do with
standing on the Lord's side and protecting the sanctity of marriage.."Choose you
this day Whom you will serve..but as for me and my house we will serve the
Well put Don, well put!!
Can anyone envision Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, African Americans, Hispanics,
etc out protesting and vandalizing if the vote had gone the other way?
Equal rights by definition means every man and woman has the exact same
rights.The passing of Prop 8 did not grant anyone anything but equal
rights.Every man in California has the same equal right to marry a
woman.Every woman in California has the same equal right to marry a
man.The limitation is that no man can marry another man and no woman can
marry another woman.Well guess what? That limitation applies equally to
me as a heterosexual man as it does to you as a homosexual man.Gays are
not calling for equal rights. They are calling for special rights.And lets
not even get into the argument about how marriage never was a right to begin
with. I find it interesting that I have yet to see one opponent of prop 8
that posts in this forum back up any argument they have made with logic and
reason. Probably because what they desire to shove down every ones throats is
both illogical and unreasonable.
If one believes in God, the pattern was established from the onset. If one does
not believe in God or creationism, the pattern was established by nature. In
either case, we're here (mankind at large) because of a man and a woman union
and the unique role each plays in creating new life. IMO, marriage sanctifies
that union and creates a heaven blessed or a natural family. To apply the term
marriage to something other than that union, reduces or marginalizes the
sanctity of that status. A gay union is not a marriage in the
same sense that a heterosexual union is. It can't be by either God's definition
If I read one more comment about separation of church and state I am going to
puke. Shows the illiterate nature of our so called citizens who enjoy civil
rights. Read the constitution and do some research into the reason for the
concern over religion before you open your big mouths and make yourselves look
like idiots. The founding fathers sought to PROTECT religion from the
government, not the other way around. Remember why people came here to begin
with? Go back to high school people.
The California Prop. 8 campaign manager said "It strikes me as quite ironic that
a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are
so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights.".. I
say "Amen" Brother
If you are a gay Christian, how does that work? If you profess a belief in the
Bible how can you at the same time mock God by actively doing that which he has
clearly condemned? It is true that no man can serve two masters and if anything
this prop 8 fight has made that crystal clear, as gay Christians actively fight
against the will of the God they profess to believe in.
It is the belief of the LDS that we were given "Free Agency". The ability
to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. I know of no doctrine that
allows us to make our own rules. "Rights" are what we as a society
give to each other, they change as WE ALLOW them to be changed. That is what is
going on here. Some want the rules to change. So votes have been held and
overwelmingly the votes have been for good.(I know, Good is my opinion) Evil
doesn't want to quit. NEVER, never, ever! Will we?It is said that
"evil will be made to look good, and good to look evil". What are we letting
happen to our society by our actions? (Or inaction)I don't hate my
fellowman (or sister), I HATE to watch evil win. So I will voice my opposition
to any evil perceived right as long there is a fight.I long for the
type of attitude Captain Moroni had with the Title of liberty. Freedom and Peace
come by action, take a stand and choose the right.
Did I not understand right? Did not gay marrage not get voted down in 3 states
or similer props? Did the people not speak? Why all the protests, it was soundly
voted down, or is this a best of 3 vote? or 5 maybe?
SO the Mormon hating crowd is finally exposed and united in their goal to
destroy the influence of all religion on society. No one cares. It doesn't
change anything. I've been hearing it all my life. It just makes me stronger.
Christ endured that same kind of skewed thinking and I'm glad to be on His side
of the issue.You will separate church and state the day you learn to
segregate the thoughts in human minds. Frankly, I do not seperate my belief
that God exists from my belief that killing is bad. They are all just truths in
my mind. People only try to segragate them when they want to diminish the value
of one of the catagories. Sad really.
time to switch topics. let's talk about the BYU vs. Utah showdown this coming
Saturday at Rice-Eccles....outstanding game on tap.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints called upon their members to do
all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your
means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being
between a man and a woman.Statistics are now available to show how
successfully the LDS church members responded to this call. Google
"mormonsfor8" for more information.To those of you who can't
understand why the Mormon church has been singled out for their involvement with
Proposition 8, the statistics are quite revealing. According to California
state records, of all donations of $1000 or more to the proposition 8 campaign,
almost 48% of those donations came from the members of one church.. the Mormon
The state has a legitimate interest in who can be married and who cannot be. It
has been determined that marriage between a man and woman is the best way to
achieve the purposes of the people as a whole. Marriage is not a right. If it
were, people wouldn't have to pay for a marriage license and meet certain
requirements. For similar reasons that people cannot marry their cousins or
multiple people, it has been determined by 30 states whether by vote or state
Constitution that it is in the best interest of the people to define marriage
between man and woman. This is not to say that gays are being denied any rights
because they haven't been. Marriage is not a civil right. Read Jeff Jacoby's
editorial in the Boston Globe from last Wednesday for some real insight.
Gay marriage is coming to Utah.The Equal Protection Clause of the
U.S. Constitution guarantees it....;nor shall any State deprive any
person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; NOR DENY TO
ANY PERSON WITHIN ITS JURISDICTION THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS.(emphasis added)14th Amendment to the Constitution, Section 1.What does this mean? It means that laws that apply to any one of us must
apply to all.The argument is straightforward and simple.Marriage is not defined in the U.S. Constitution as being between a man and a
woman; until it is, the law is clear. Gay marriages must be allowed. To do
otherwise is UNEQUAL treatment under the laws of the land.Why the
Gay community continues to waste its energy on marches, protest and
half-measures is beyond me. A U.S. Supreme Court ruling on this
would in one fell swoop end this constant bickering.Wise up Gay
You can vote on marriage between a husband and wife when the bible says that
such an act is an abomination to GOD. Go live in Europe if you don't like a
Christian based country.
Oh and one more thing, the mob/protest mentality is cowardly and shows no
knowledge of the issues or any semblance of intelligence. It represents people
that can have a 3 word slogan and yell and scream at other people without fear
of retribution (kind of like the internet). Please try to know the facts. The
LDS church did not put any money into this issue. It's members did. It's
members are people and have every right to do so. If you think the government
is going to eliminate the tax exempt status of religions that get involved in
politics (all of them), you are insane. Churches across this country fulfill a
great role that the government couldn't on its own. They save the government
countless millions of dollars in volunteer work to help the poor, disaster
relief, donations, and service work. There is truly a compelling interest to
leave things as they are in this way just as there is a compelling interest to
Here in San Diego is was a about 300. Not Thousands
If anyone can show me where in the constitution, or any of the amendments, it
guarantees anyone, gay or straight, the RIGHT to marry, I'll vote for Gay
Marriage next time it comes around, and I'll even donate money to the cause.
We can no longer live in a Divided United States. I think we should have a
Constitutional Convention and let the States Decide on a US Constitutional
Amendment that states: "Only Marriages in the United States will be Between One
Man and One Woman". 34 States would need to ratify such an amendment, and since
30 states already have such a statement, what would it take to get 4 more? Then
it would BE Constitutional and not Subject to the Courts. Remember
that Dred Scott and Jim Crow Separate but Equal were not Votes, but the opinions
of the COURTS. Edmunds-Tucker was congressional legislation, not votes.
History PROVES that the courts have forsaken rights, while the Vote of the
people have protected them. Frankly, if we are to survive as a republic, keep
the power in the hands of the people as stated by James Madison.
Marriage is not a "right" that was taken away Prop 8. Marriage is a
privilege, it has ALWAYS been between a man and a woman and was NEVER between
two persons of the same gender. It was created by God in the beginning. God
also forbade homosexuality. He has not altered his decrees. Just
because judges overstepped their authority and permitted gay marriage for a few
months in California did not change these facts. Gay marriage did not become a
right and homesexuality is still immoral, regardless of those judges' opinions.
The gay community's anger over Prop 8 stems from your dashed hopes
that calling civil unions marriages would make it appear that homosexuality is
mainstream and no longer forbidden by God. Californians saw through your
thinly-disguised scheme and defeated it again. Your anger at Mormons
rises from your plan being thwarted by a religious coalition being courageous
enough to stand up to your criticism, name-calling, vandalism and threats to
defend morality and truth. Sorry about being better organized and
winning twice. Please continue acting out, because it will show America your
true colors and make winning next time even easier.Our sleeping
giant is bigger than yours...
Don't mention gays being Christians in the same sentence because the bible
clearly states that marriage is between man and woman. Merely believing in God
is not sufficient enough whereas a true christian sill seek to know Doctrine or
facts. Nothing is going to backfire on the church and no the church will NEVER
allow gay marriage. You call it hate but that would just contradict the
doctrine of the church. Just keep doing what your doing and soon the majority
show up and reduce your numbers from minority to minute.
"The LDS church did not put any money into this issue."hmmmmm....
actually, yes they did... $4,943.18And Mormon individual donations
dwarf all of the other donations made from other churches.
Gays, polygamists, bigamist, and all other alternative unions deserve to be on
the same playing field as everyone traditional family unions. Children deserve
the diversity that comes with having a mom and a mom or a dad and a dad. Let the
Fair enough. Find one person who is going to go to the trouble of getting the
church's tax exempt status to be removed over $4000. Do you have receipts to
verify that or is it a number you came up with from a pro gay website? I have
seen so many different numbers now that it is obvious they are all bogus.
Mormon individuals can make whatever donations they want. Maybe your time would
be better spent to figure out how Obama can spend $100 million on a campaign and
follow that up with a promise of fiscal responsibility.
Re: Landon"If anyone can show me where in the constitution, or any
of the amendments, it guarantees anyone, gay or straight, the RIGHT to marry,
I'll vote for Gay Marriage next time it comes around, and I'll even donate money
to the cause."Landon, please see my previous post.I
guess you'll be voting FOR Gay marriage the next time it comes around.See ya at the voting booth.
The church was direct in encouraging if not REQUIRING its members to obey them
and donate money to the cause, gathering 4 out of every 5 dollars supporting
prop 8. On top of that, they ran robotic phone messages to California from Utah
thus crossing the line between spiritual institution and political machine.
This accountability is the reason the church is being targeted. The argument
that church funds were not used is irrelevant when the church is who gave the
Everyone knows that Mormons controlled the outcome of the Prop 8 election in CA,
and thus all the protesting and attacks are justified...Let's do
some math to see who the real threat to the future of humanity might be: You stated the LDS church donated $4934.18Approximately $74
million was spent on Prop 8.Logically, this means the meddling
Mormon church swayed the election by contributing a whopping 0.00668% of the
total contributions!I wonder what the Mormons were able to do with
almost $5000 that had such a powerful effect on so many millions of
Californians? That kind of power for so little money means that
Bill Gates or Warren Buffet easily have enough money to control the minds of the
the entire world...Yikes!!! Let's hope that they never figure out
what the Mormons must already know.
I read the article and did not think that the vandalism was coming from those
demonstrating. One could "read into" was written. The Deseret News
did not do anything wrong.
There are more serious things going on in Calif. this weekend than the protests.
Many people are losing homes to the raging fires. Very sad!
Can we just have a truce on this for at least one week. I am tired of seeing
this issue as the most commented. Let's focus on what is important this
week-the BYU-Utah football game.I hope that the loser will not
demand a recount, have a dangling chad, protest Proposition 2008 (what I am
calling this game), write hate mail towards the other school, protest the
Mormons if BYU wins, protest the jack-Mormons if Utah wins (couldn't resist
being sarcastic there and no offense to those LDS or non-LDS at Utah and BYU),
etc.I am going to be at the game with my friend. One of us will be
decked out in BYU attire and the other in Utah attire. No, we are not getting
married, nor did the thought ever cross our minds. We have to draw the line
somewhere. But, we are civil to each other. Vote Yes on keeping Utah fans
from marrying BYU fans! You never know where this atrocity could lead!Let's try to just enjoy each others differences and enjoy a great game this
week. Can we please have a truce for at least 1 week? Go Cougs/Go Utes!
RE:WADE reminds us that "individual Mormons' donations (may) have dwarfed all
other churches...".(?) Homosexuals (e.g. GLBT, NAMBLA, LAMDA, etc may have
donated the most to "No on Prop 8". Should people in favor of Prop 8 start
persecuting homosexuals? Burn things on their lawns (e.g. Clay Aiken albums)?
Boycott Broadway shows? Stop watching Bravo? I wouldn't support that. Does the
"No on 8" mob think that's where all this is headed? Do you really think the 40%
of California that voted with you simply because they pitied you is going to
honor your boycotts or tolerate your percsecution of honorable, upstanding
citizens who are their neighbors? You're just turning them against you - by the
thousands - reminding them of why they voted against you last time. You're also
alerting many of them to the simple fact that they got duped by the California
AG's word-games with the ballot measure and they "mis-cast" their ballot.
They're watching the news and vowing not to make that mistake again. Bring on the rematch, baby. We know there'll be one. Next Vote: 70% to 30% in
favor of confirming that lawful marriage is between one man and one woman.
Everyone should have the right to marry whomever they want. This is a personal
issue and a family issue. My right to marry the one I love has nothing to do
with your opinions. "Civil government cannot let any group ride
roughshod over others simply because their consciences tell them to do so."-- Robert H. Jackson"Censorship, like charity, should begin at
home; but unlike charity, it should end there."-- Clare Booth Luce"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him."--
John Morley"Free societies...are societies in motion, and with
motion comes tension, dissent, friction. Free people strike sparks, and those
sparks are the best evidence of freedom's existence."-- Salman Rushdie
California voters have now twice stated by referendum that they do not want to
grant government recognition of marriage to same-sex couples. Thats a pretty
clear message that the people of California do not want a public policy that
gives official recognition to same-sex couples, outside of partnership
contracts.Id expect to see that on the ballot every two years from now on, but
if its backers keep acting like lunatics, they can expect to lose by greater
margins in the future.
In Cali; The late local news showed scenes of several Hispanic females in tears
outside the temple trying to remove the signs desecrating the walls and fences
surrounding the temple. As these individuals who according to the news were not
church members removed the hate-filled signs, the mob exploded and began
beating the individuals to the ground,
Both the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS Church took a stand, along with other
Christian groups, to preserve the insitution of "marriage" as between 1 man and
1 woman. This passed by a majority vote. It seems that the in-your-face,
'bashing' response is geared to intimidate not just members but the viewing
public into giving in, with the implication that whoever opposes them will be
the next focus of their ire. Once same-sex marriage is 'legal', will the
government then attempt to REQUIRE churches to marry same-sex couples,
regardless of that church's moral opposition? There are already gay unions which
have all the temporal benefits which "marriage" has from the state. Isn't this
continual pushing because they essentially want the state to force the Churches
to say homosexuality is "good", and "approved". No matter what the government
does, I do not see that ever happening.
it was on the news in Utah that a Catholic Bishop who had been in Salt Lake
previously had written to LDS President Monson to ask him to specifically ask
members to consider giving their time to work on this moral issue. It's rare for
the LDS Church to comment on any election process at all beyond "Be involved in
your community, learn the issues and make your decisions a matter of prayer
between you and the Lord". It may become even more necessary to work together in
the future as lobbying groups attempt to legislate what ought to remain moral
Lorri L. Jean, chief executive of the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center, told the
LA Times that a postcard will be sent to the president of the Mormon Church for
every $5 donated, condemning "the reprehensible role the Church of Latter-day
Saints leadership played in denying all Californians equal rights under the
They are just making a bigger deal about the LDS church than what it needs to
be. It wasn't the church who made the vote. Yes they may have put money into the
cause, and I most certaintly don't think that the LDS church paid people to vote
for the prop. I think that it was the state of California as a whole that got
the prop passed.
It is interesting that these protests are happening after everyone in California
had voted on Proposition 8. Now that Proposition 8 failed, all the
riots, the dirty letters, etc just goes to show that a loser is generally a sore
loser. These protests should have been from the beginning about how it should
have even be worthy of a vote by the American people. Why did they wait until
after the vote to start their displays.
Wasn't able to fix my error. Proposition 8 passed, not failed. Sorry.But I am glad it passed. This is one thing I am grateful for that Obama was
running. He brought out many many passionate voters.
This has all gotten way out of hand. Why doesn't anyone realize that Mormons
didn't pass Proposition 8? As Mormons only make up about 2 percent of the
population in California, it's a mathematical impossibility! Additionally, not
every Mormon voted in favor of the amendment. According to the L.A.
Times, protesters are now focusing their anger on the black community as well as
anyone else who voted in favor of the Proposition. Who are the bigots now? Yes,
you have the right to be critical and criticism shouldn't involve epiteths. What
all this amounts to is harrassment. I don't understand why a group so focused on
tolerance and being accepted is now the one being so intolerable of other
people's beliefs and lifestyles. Take it to the courts, not the
People need to focus here. The issue at Gettysburg was about people being held
as slaves. This was not their coice to be slaves. Gays and Lesbians have made
the LIFESTYLE CHOICE and now want to try to justify that choice by forcing
everyone to accept their ideas as normal. Don't try to compare salvery to bad
I keep hearing gays say stay out of our state. Last time I checked it was still
my Country. I have a say what happens in this country. So, I and others are
allowed to send money to whatever political stand we want. Just like you are. I
also know for a fact that the gay movement received money from outside the state
of California just like the people who voted yes for prop 8 received money. On
another note, gays keep saying that the LDS churchs tax exempt status should be
taken away. Well, I also know there our gay organizations that are tax exempt.
Should theirs be taken away as well? They had a dog in the fight just like the
LDS church did. They had an opinion, just like the LDS church did. Should their
tax exempt status be taken away? Come on you guys. You only want what you want.
You only see what you see. It works both ways.
There, I said it. It may be politically incorrect, to which I say, I'm not
sorry. I don't mean ill-will towards people who may have same-sex attraction,
but that is quite different from ramming your "in-your'face" trashing of
traditional (centuries old) family values down the rest of our collective
throats. Not to mention the poor children who are forced to be raised into
these unnatural and unholy "marriages." No doubt, there are some gay people who
are nuturing people in their own way, but the underlying lack of a mom and dad
as God intended will only lead to more problems down the road for society.
To you people who preach love and people's rights and then rough up a 70 year
old woman with a cross using her right to free speech, and who try to
indoctrinate children in the schools that being gay is "normal," and won't allow
the same school to teach the other side, and who protest at religious sites of
one group of people ,and there were other groups who helped pass prop 8.You
protest against the Mormons who teach love and tolerance, who come to the aid of
people of all faith, just because they feel this is a moral issue. I have many
gay friends and coworkers, who are not in your face trying to get the same
"rights" as married people. If you were in the majority we would be no more.
You are going to push too far and your cause will be hurt. Societies have been
brought down by this type of behavior. Get a life-contribute to the good of
all. Keep your private affairs private.
It is a shame it has come to this.Goering once said that if you tell
a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.Real marriage can only be
between a man and woman.We could try an experiment. 50 gay/lesbian
couples and 50 men/women couples. Put each group on an deserted island. Come
back in 75 years and see which group looks the more inviting. Oops. One of the
islands is still "deserted". I wonder why?
While Mormons may have donated much in the way of financial contributions, it
was mostly Non-Mormons that voted Yes on Prop 8. So why target the Mormons
especially with violence? I voted No this go round, I will vote yes next time.
Gays are not being prohibited from marriage. Find an acceptable person of your
opposite gender that is of adult age and capable of consenting and you too could
You know when you see a child who throws tantrums and only thinks about "me, me,
me" ? That child is immature and very selfish, never thinking about how his or
her behavior affects anyone else and thinks the world revolves around him/her.
Now look at the gay community. This is the most narcissistic, selfish group
that ever existed. They want to world to revolve around them. They only think
about themselves. Have you ever seen a gay group do anything that wasn't about
themselves? Have you ever seen them do anything that benefitted anyone other
than themselves?This is the latest in their selfish, look at me behavior. If
everyone was like them the world would be a horrible place!
lets move on to some other stories.
Who cares if few hundred misguided people walked around? A few million could
march at the word of the First Presidency.
There is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. In fact, all the
evidence exists to say that people are born male and female. Science also tells
us that the only way people can reproduce requires both a male and a female. It
is physically impossible for two people of the same gender to concieve and give
birth to a child. Therefore, being gay or lesbian is obviously not a natural
thing, and is against all scientific evidence. I for one will continue to stand
for the fact that marriage is only appropriate as God intended it, and that is
between a man and a woman. I will never see it any other way. You can ram it
down my throat and get some ultra liberal Californai Supremem Court to legalize
gay marriage, but it will never be sanctioned in the eyes of God. May God have
mercy on your poor, decieved souls.
The same people that voted FOR Obama voted FOR Prop 8. Only 2% of California is
Mormon and not all Mormons voted for Prop 8. Even those Mormons that voted
against prop 8 are still having their church targeted. So, the gays are judging
all mormons the same and that is bigotry.
Anyone out there know if the Unitarian "Church" donated any money to DEFEAT Prop
8? Their stance is obvious - check it out on google. If so, where are all the
"protests" about their religious involvement; where are all the protests about
their "members" getting involved and spreading their CHURCH'S beliefs? I hope this garbage ignites conservatives. We had no representation in the
last election. Years of sitting on our butts is what brought this garbage to the
point where it is now - and "now" we either stop it or it runs right over us.
They gay lobby could care less about anyone over 30; it is the minds of the
young people they want. Just like Hitler wanted the youth; so to do the gays and
their supporters.Let's all write to the manufacturers of "ED"
products; the ones we see on TV. Tell them to include "same sex" couples in
their ads. Let's see if they do it. I doubt they would; but if they do, perhaps
seeing "that" (2 dudes going to the bedroom) will shock enough people into just
what they are supporting.
It's not, it's a moral issue.Moral issueMoral issueMoral issueMoral issue
It's these exact same people protesting that their rights are being taken away
that vote against my right to bear arms every chance they get because they think
its 'best' for society.Anyway they spin this, the fact that is clear
to the majority is that they will do or say anything to legitimize their
There still is not a post from the supporters of Homosexuality that addresses
the Real Issue! IS HOMOSEXUALITY RIGHT OR WRONG?Always
the side step, my rights are violated, or "equal protection". My favorite whine
is that "I should be tolerant" of their poor choice.Remember that we
as a group set the standards by what is tolerated. Some of the posts try to say
that a majority should give in to minorities for tolerance sake, Why? What is
next? Do we continue to move down the scale of degeneracy until there is no
right or wrong?Quit whining about nothing (which is what happening
since you lost) and figure out what is right, and what is wrong.
It's "Gr8 to be Str8"!!!!!
YOU ALMOST SOUND LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.
Nothing to see here, move along. Move along.
A number of posters have tried show that it's the responsibility of judges to
override the will of the people when necessary in an attempt to justify the
protesters actions. Problem is 1) courts are only able to override the
executive and legislative branches, not the will of the people and 2) their are
no people being denied rights had by others.Even the US Supreme
Court is subject to rulings that conform to the constitution, which is only in
force because it was ratified by the voice of the people and it can be changed
by the voice of the people (and it has been done 27 times). Two thirds of
states now have bans on gay marriages, this would be enough for a new amendment
if it were put to vote. Society would never trust it's laws to me made by four
California judges. Instead we rely on them to ensure the laws that are passed
by the Executive and Legislative branch are according to the voice of the
people. The California court frequently seeks to subvert the will of the people
because they disagree with it.
Mankind may bravely say that there is no sin. But fornication, adultery and
homosexuality are still sins. In the case of moral issues, majority or minority
doesn't matter. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong. You can protest,
scream, flail and even gnash your teeth. It will not change truth.We
should not forget the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Lord told Abraham that He
was going to destroy these wicked cities, mainly because of their sexual sins.
But Abraham pled with the Lord not to destroy the cities because he would
destroy the righteous with the wicked. The problem was, the only righteous
people who could be found were Lot and his family.When the Lord sent
holy men to visit Lot, he had to protect them from those of the city who wanted
to "know them" (in other words, have sex with them). Lot and his family were led
away and then the cities were destroyed.Sodom and Gomorrah is here
and the residents are knocking on our doors. They are in our face with their
demands. They want our pity.I hope there are still righteous people
left to protect our civilization.
Please tell me where you got your figures ($4,943.18) for what "the Church"
donated. And if you got it off a pro-gay website, you'll have to document that
for me as well (where THEY got it from.) I know my church and what you're
saying is just not true.
The only hateful behaviour I have observed is that of the sore losers. I am
straight and USED TO BE sympathetic to the same-sex marriage cause, but no more.
This isn't about equality but about political power. It turns my stomach. I'm
tired of being used.
Answer the following questions?Who is trying to change the definition of
marrige?How can you take rights away rights from a group that is not a
protected class?Who is protesting and blocking others freedoms that are a
protected class ie religion!Who is using violet actions and calling others
racist?Please show us were because someone disagrees with you and they are
religious that they are evil and oh yes not allowed to express their opions
because they are religious?
I gave my life to the church. I served in every position my Heavenly Father
asked me to. I went on a mission, and did everything I could to be an upstanding
member of the church. I tried so hard to overcome my attraction to the same sex.
Countless amounts of therapy with church leaders, LDS counselors along with
intense personal effort resulted in a complete understanding that this was truly
not a choice. I wish that those that think this is a choice could have viewed
and experienced the years of emotional pain, tears, deep reflection, and soul
searching that were involved in this realization. I asked my heterosexual
mother to visualize herself "choosing" to be attracted to women. She could not
imagine it. I can assure you I did not choose my attraction. I am now with my
best friend and soul mate who I love and admire. I have hopes and dreams for a
beautiful life together just like my heterosexual siblings have with their
spouses. Marriage provides many privileges and benefits that are real. They
should be given to every equal child of God and citizen of this great land.
As one of the organizers of the rally and vigil last night, I think it
appropriate for me to clarify some things for people who were not there.1) We are anti-violence. I know the actions of less than a handful of
individuals have caused damage to LDS structures. On the other side, I've seen
the pain of families who have had their sons and daughters murdered for being
gay. We condemn violence from either side.2) We're not Anti-LDS,
we're Pro-Family. The reason the LDS is catching a lot of backfire is because
for being 5% of Califonias population, they funded 77% of the Yes on 8 campaign.
LGBT people are angry because their families are being attacked- and a
disproportionate amount of the funding for these attacks has come from LDS
hands.Both sides argue that their actions are motivated by a
dedication to protect thier families. We're not trying to harm your family; just
the opposite. Your families are beautiful. We believe our familes are beautiful
and want to provide them with the same rights and protections.Seperate is not equal. We're Americans, and as Americans we value equality. As
an American, please grant other Americans equality.
Mobs marching against Mormons is not new. Mormons were not swayed to change
their beliefs last time and they are not going to do so this time. The founder
of the church was even killed by one of these mobs and it did not stop the
Latter-day saint movement from prospering. No amount of ignorance or plain old
bigotry from any detractor will change things.
I believe that all people should be respected. What happens in one's home is
one's business. However, trying to change historical laws to fit one's
lifestyle borders on disrespect. Singling out and attacking one religion for
it's stand on historical laws is blatant disrespect. Especially, when the
Catholic and Protestant communities stood together with the LDS church.
This is RIDICULOUS. I live in SoCal. One of our friends down here donated 100
bucks to the campaign through here photography business which she uses to
support here two kids. Gay activists found her website and are encouraging all
to boycott her business calling her shameful and a terrible person.I
once felt empathy for the anti-8s but this is DISPICAPLE behavior on their part.
Prop 8 is not about gay rights, but children's rights and our nation's rights,
to have the basic family unit preserved.
John,"Gay marriage does nothing to threaten heterosexual marriage."Oh really? This very article being commented on mentioned two men who were
once married to LDS women but are now "married" to each other. It certainly
looks like gay "marriage" broke up their marriages. I have seen countless
Your statement is inaccurate. The has been vandalism of church buildings during
demonstrations/protests, ie, the LA Temple. These people are calling for a right
that isn't a right. Rights protect what we are not the lifestyles we engage in.
Homosexuality is a lifestyle and while I believe there are those that have
tendencies, I do not feel that anyone is made gay. Everyone has a choice. Once
we begin to adjust the mores of society to accommodate the preferences of
others, we lose our foundation and society becomes anarchy. Just as a parent
doesn't allow a child to touch a hot stove because of understanding and love, we
cannot allow gay marriage to be. It not because of hate but because of
understanding and love. Stop throwing the tantrum and see things as they really
I have many friends--some LDS, some Catholic, some Gay, some Straight...I have no issue with people exercising their Constitutional right to
protest peacefully...Nor exercising their constitutional right to
vote however they want...I don't know about you but I have my own
mind and can make my own decision...as I trust everyone is California does as
well!!!BUT I have a BIG PROBLEM with people resorting to violence,
intimidation, and vandalism...(Dr. King would also be discusted, guaranteed).
RE Richard G: Hmmm, blacks and women were loud and boisterous when it came to
bigotry and inequality. Remember, to change the status quo, you must stand up
and be heard. As a dedicated, gay father to a LDS daughter, I understand all
about the definition of "morality." That's why I continue to stand up as an
example to her. When a church, guided by what they deem as "truth," attempts to
mandate that perspective far and wide, then we've arrived at an immoral and
dangerous time in history. That's not the kind of governing or country I believe
I live in So Cal, but I want to say thank you to every protester and to tell you
that I've never been prouder to be from Salt Lake. Lines have been drawn on this
issue and Salt Lake is ground zero. When gay marriage is as common as having a
black president, I will be proud to say that the genesis was in my home town.
This is a lot of talk over an absurd issue. I have heard a lot of people
against prop 8 who are well versed and argue eloquently about how they are being
discriminated against. It is almost unfortunate that others argue against them,
thereby dignifying what they have to say. What it all boils down to is that
gays and lesbians are defending behavior that is completely disgusting and
reprehensible on so many levels.
Let it go. This has nothing to do with us in Utah. It was in CALIFORNIA! Did you
get to vote on Proposition 8? I didn't. I'm sick of hearing about it. Stop
reporting on it and the protestors will lose their interest because they won't
be getting attention anymore. There are better ways to get what you want,
protesting does absolutely NOTHING.
The big crowds at the protest's prove nothing.Many of the people are paid,
to make it appear that more people are against it.Check it out.Google: Paid protesters.
Why do my comments always get cut? Sodomy is the legal term and central to this
I know a large number of gay men and women did not attend the rallies. Why?
Because they just don't care about the issue. They already had other plans to
work, to volunteer at charitable organizations, and to be a part of their larger
community. These men and women know how to not isolate themselves and be
neighborly.Also, attendance at many LDS churches increased last
week. I noticed that at my ward, and I heard the same report from many friends.
That could really mean that a sleeping giant has awakened, and it decided to go
back to church.
What the LDS Church does with its doctrine is fine --- confined to their homes,
churches, temples.When they support their members to vote on how
gays live their lives is WRONG. Yes, they interfere --- because the legislation
directly impacts how they lives their lives.And call marriage holy
and sactimonious all you want. By your own logic, what do you call the hundreds
of thousands that get married civilly every year at city halls?We
will not take anything less than marriage. Rosa Parks called... and
she, like us, refuse to sit on the back of the bus anymore by what you will give
us --- domestic partnerships and civil unions. Separate but equal is inherently
unequal.As far as vandalism on places of worship --- it is wrong,
and most protests have been peaceful.Please understand that the LGBT
community has lived with hate crimes, slurs, homophobia, discrimination for
years --- some way before they came out.Any kind of hate is
wrong.But we will win this, even if you do not like it.
Haven't your church leaders taught you to be kinder and less judgmental towards
your brothers and sisters? I know I am trying to follow that admonition.
I'm glad I live in Riverton.
Do you think if I had a choice I would have chosen:* harrassment* alientation from family, friends, co-workers, school* ridicule* less benefits at work* depressionmany, like me,
have "tried" to go "straight," to no avail --- just breaking other people's
hearts. It's not fair to the hetero community, and it's not fair to us.
What exactly is wrong with marching? --- as long as it is peaceful?Many would would to pour their millions, keep their voice secret, and then run
away and hide, wanting to maintain their views and bigotry, yes, bigotry, secret
and undisclosed.We do it out in the open --- we have our voices
heard. It is also part of the democratic process.
This is a right whose time has come.We have waited too long for this
right --- keeping what the majority would give us --- but no more.We
will petition the courts --- I know some of you don't like that, but sorry to
break the news, courts are also part of the democratic process, else, why have
them?We will march.We will speak with our neighbors,
families, friends, co-workers --- not to spread "a lifestyle" - as some may call
it, but to petition to have equal rights and protection under the law.I can't believe that in 2008, we are having to request equal rights.
Marriage has always been, is now, and always will be, a heterosexual institution
by its very nature. It has never been a government endorsement of sexual
pleasure or love - it has always been, is now and always will be a government
endorsement of stable heterosexual relationships as the very core of society's
continued existence.Gay activists' stunningly hateful, violent, and
fundamentally evil response to their fair-and-square democratic loss will reap a
whirlwind of traditional conservative reaction the likes of which they have
never seen. They are truly awakening the sleeping giant.The line is
drawn here. No further. This is a fight for our nation's very survival.
I would like to take a minute to thank the LDS Church. If they hadn't entered
the Prop 8 fight and had their members working so feverishly to repeal it, yes,
gay marriage would be legal in California now, but this great cross-country
awakening of gay people and the straight people who support them would not have
occurred.I was at the rally yesterday to support my gay sister and
it was a very moving experience. (The media may have focused almost entirely on
the anti-gay protesters, but that was a very small part of a very large event
and most people there just ignored them.)And now other people,
people who maybe never really thought about it before, and people who truly do
believe in the separation of church and state, will begin to see what all this
boils down to is that millions of their fellow citizens, fellow citizens who
work and pay their taxes just like they do, still do not have the same rights as
the majority does. And they will recognize that in the United States
of America, where liberty and justice are supposed to be for ALL, that this is
just not right.
Why should heterosexuals have the right to tell gay people what they CAN and
CANNOT do? When will gay people have the chance or opportunity to
vote on the status, rights and privileges of OTHER PEOPLE'S marriages?
Mr. Gardner,Please explain to me how this is about children's
rights? A child deserves to be raised in a stable environment-- not in a
two-year contract which is what "traditional" marriage has devolved to. Over
half of the nations marriages end in divorce. Why would you want to deny a group
of people that just want that 50/50 chance so that they can have thier OWN
families? Contrary to some deranged comments, LGBT families are not out to get
your children or destroy your marriage. They want to protect thier children, and
protect thier families. No more children should suffer the fate of Lawrence
King. Think about it, when you tell LGBT people they cannot
marry--you are possibly denying your own flesh and blood the right to pursue
their happiness. If two people love each other, you don't have to support it, or
even condone it...but to stand in the way of it is inhuman.
We very much appreciate your reasoned and passionate plea for equality and
understanding. Unfortunately not all those from the LGBT share your
level-headedness. Even though they carry signs that decry our supposed hatred
and bigotry against them-it is they who hate and destroy in the name of
tolerance.It is important for you and those that stand with you to
understand that there is not one iota of hatred or bigotry emanating out of the
LDS church or even from the overwhelming majority of its members.It
is all a matter of pure semantics, as you already have civil unions recognized
nationwide with all the attendant rights and privileges that regular hetero
marriages have as well.But, know you are not satisfied wanting the
rest of the world to totally accept you and your lifestyle by changing the very
definition of marriage that has existed from the beginning of time.Just as we can not call not a horse a cow, neither can we call a civil union
between two men or two women a marriage. You can live however you want and we
will grant you all the same rights you crave-but we will not call it a marriage.
I find the backlash against the LDS church interesting. As has been mentioned,
it seems the LDS church is being singled out because of its stand on preserving
marriage. I think there is more to that than its support of Preposition 8. The
gay and lesbian community is waging aware not on civil rights, but on the
doctrine of ordained marriage. I feel the recent protests and push for "equal
rights" is not so much a push for rights as it is a push for a change in Mormon
values. It seems like in the gay and lesbian community, there is more of a
desire for justification of their behavior rather than equal rights. The Church
will not change its stand, and I suppose many in the gay and lesbian community
will not as well. We might try the novel concept of agreeing to disagree and
live civilly towards one another
There have been comments that gay's that have left heterosexual marriages are
destroying marriage. Has anyone ever stopped to think that if they could have
married the person they wanted to in the first place...those sham marriages
would have never happened?How many suicides could be prevented if
families didn't disown thier own children for being gay?How many
families would be saved from tragedy if they could only have the same rights as
thier neighbor. There is not a person in the world that does not
know a gay person. They may not know who it is...but they know them. Oftentimes,
they are your sister, your brother, your neighbor, your best friend. But they
are afraid to tell you because they are afraid that in being true to themselves,
they'll lose you. You don't have to agree with gays, you don't have to like
them...but try to imagine how you would feel if you lost a loved one because
someone couldn't look beyond hate. How would you feel if someone told you that a
farm animal being raised for slaughter had more value than your family?
"Once same-sex marriage is 'legal', will the government then attempt to REQUIRE
churches to marry same-sex couples, regardless of that church's moral
opposition?"I've heard that people have been told that this will be
the case but IT IS NOT AND NEVER will be.Think about it, no church
is ever forced to marry people it doesn't want to marry. A friend of mine had a
hard time getting married in the Catholic Church, even though he IS Catholic and
so was his then fiance, (now his wife), because the maid of honor was a Wiccan
and the priest at his parish refused to marry them because he objected to her
religion.Churches have always been able to refuse to marry whoever
they don't want to marry, even if it is one of their own members to another.
This will not change.
I am active LDS and totally opposed to gay marriage. That said the appears to
be a great deal of confusion over the difference between rights and
priviledges.In the American system "anything not specifically
forbidden is allowed."Gay marriage is specifically forbidden.
This seems to be more of an issure for a dictionary.Marriage means
the union between a man and a woman.Gay people are not happy with
that. They want the word changed.Heterosexual means the sexual
attraction between a man and a woman. Perhaps the gay community wants that word
redefined also. After all isn't the fact that the word heterosexual is defined
as it is take away gay's rights to be called heterosexuals.It seems
to me Californians voted on keeping the meaning of the word marriage as it is
traditionally. Should there be a different word for a man and a
women who live together as a couple versus a man and a man living together as a
couple? Moral issue? Semantics issue? Whatever it is the California
population has spoken on it's position.
Come on sir.The truth stands alone as the truth. And it not just
the LDS church or the other faiths that joined with it in support of Prop 8, but
God himself who mandated the definition of marriage.As a gay man,
you probably have little or no use for any type of deity in your life, but that
does not alter the fact that there is a loving God of us all that cares about
you and your children.Flame away friend, but all the posturing in
the world will change this basic fact of nature.Although you find it
hard to stomach a country ruled by majority law, perhaps you might enjoy some
totalitarian country that not only targets gays, but murders them on a regular
basis. I have lived in such a nation and tell you that such places do exist.
Not sure that you would like it there.You (and your partner) have
every right that my wife and I do. So, please quit whining about that which
you can not have.Truth is truth and it is not on your side.
Actually John, Gay Marriage does threaten all marriages. Like someone printing
exact replicas of our Canadian Dollar and then flooding them into the market, in
which case my own bills are now devalued. Same-sex marriage here in
Canada has clearly made marriage less valued socially. It has "Hallmarkized"
(anyone can pick them up, for little investment, and they hold much less value
than a traditional card) marriage here and as a result fewer people are getting
married. The problem is that people are still having children at the same rate,
but now these children have mothers with partners instead of mothers and
fathers.The right of a child to have a mother and a father alone
outweighs all of your arguments in favor of SSM.
My comments seam to be getting cut too.The gays have a basic right
that they should use. They have the right to leave the country.
Actually Carlos it was not 51/49 (never let a good rant get in the way of the
truth). The results were 52.5% to 47.5%. That is a spread of 5%. And if just 5%
of Californians took to the streets the way these 'fringers' have it would shut
down the entire state.Up Democracy, down Mob Rule! America is not
Take some adivce from Elton John....."Sir Elton John has come
forward saying hes for Proposition 8, which bans gay marriages. He believes gay
couples should stick to civil unions rather than getting married. Elton and his longtime partner David Furnish celebrated a civil union ceremony
back in 2005. At the Elton John AIDS Foundation in NYC on Monday night, he said,
Were not married. Lets get that right. We have a civil partnership. I dont want
to be married. Im very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get
married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership. The word
marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that
we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can
have civil partnerships. "Article from Hollyscoop
Isaiah 5:20...Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness
for light and light for darkness.How tragic that those who try to
follow Christ and live the commandments of God are called bigoted and
uneducated. How tragic that those who oppose the sanctity of
marriage and family, as established by God for thousands of years, are
considered enlightened.We must all stand together with faith. Those
that be with us are greater than those that be against us. We will always stand
for what is right no matter how much persection is heaped upon us. It is
true.....they have awakened a sleeping giant.
It's a civil rights issue. The right to marry was already defined as a
fundamental civil right. I think that the LDS shouldn't have acted as a
political action committee to take away minority groups civil rights. Everyone
has the right to believe their religion but the gay people also have the right
to believe that they were born that way. So, we are getting into differing
belief systems neither of which should cancel out any civil rights from the
other side. Any reasonable person should know that in a free society no one
should lose civil rights for their beliefs. Not the Mormons and not the gays
although, I do see a compelling reason why the government should start looking
at the LDS tax exempt status's if it is really acting as a political
Yes, thank you to all 52% who voted for Prop. 8 and for the fundamentals in Utah
whos supported it.And get over yourselves, you want to avoid the
punches when you start messing with our lives --- your religion might be sacred,
but guess what? so are own lives. So give a punch, take a punch back. Take
that.You just made a closet gay come out and start moving things.If I didn't see it before, I see it now.AND...Is
this the way half of Utah treats their gays on a regular basis? Their friends,
sons, daughters, co-workers, I pity you people.And not only are not
happy keeping their gays in misery in Utah. They want to spread the misery to
two states over. Just pathetic.
Adam and Eve are turning over in their graves....
To: Equal Rights - "Please understand that the LGBT community has lived with
hate crimes, slurs, .....discrimination for years"Welcome to the
Sorry to pop your bubble...but marriage has NOT always been a purely
heterosexual institution... read something other than a eurocentric text
book.As for government endorsement, go to Canada, Spain,
Massachusetts... they recognize stable relationships between two consenting
adults as a human right.As for the activists... you're taking less
than 1% of the people rallying around the country and stereotyping the lot of
them. That's sad. What if the gay population were to blame you personally for
the murder of Matthew Shepard?Only in America would a person have to
travel to Canada to be treated like an American.
I am confused, Approximately 5.4 million Californians voted on Prop 8. There are
approx. 700,000 Mormons in California, half of which are under 18 and cannot
vote. So lets just round up a bit and say 400,000 Californians voted yes on
prop.8. Basically 5 million non Mormons voted yes on 8, so how is this the
Church's fault? It is okay to show support for something, all the Church did is
show support, period. You no on 8 people rallied to fight it too, and spent more
than yes on 8 did. Had this gone the other way would you see Mormons taking to
the streets and be saying hateful like you supporters? Doubt it. Defeat is
always painful, you no on 8 supporter lost, fair and square. And the Mormon
church is only one brick in that wall of 5 million voters. Please accept that.
The state chose, not the Church.
if you believe in them, are the father and mother of all living people. That
would include gay and lesbian progeny.
Heterosexuals are being allowed to destroy same-sex marriage, not vice versa.
They are the tyrants. Stop playing the victim.
Please get educated. Obviously you haven't read how the LDS Church encouraged
Church members to donate money, time, and energy into Passing Prop. 8 --- based
on lies.Hope you're not confused now. Glad I could help.
It's kind of funny how liberals LOVE the constitutional right of free speech and
opinions. Except when it works against one of their causes. Back atcha
Thank you for your well-worded response.One thing I disagree with is
when you say there "is not one iota of hatred or bigotry emanating out of the
LDS church". Fact is, there is bigotry on both sides of the issue. Ultimately,
we are both doing what we believe is best for our families--and have a hard time
understanding the other side.As for semantics...I wouldn't mind
having a civil union, if they were indeed recognized nationwide and by the
federal government, which they are not. Also, civil unions do not currently
provide all the rights and privileges that marriage current grants. The definition of marriage has changed over time and varies throughout
cultures...it is no longer about ownership, thank everything holy.I
don't mind if you choose not to call our lifelong bonds marriage. However I will
continue to fight for and defend my right to the same rights and privileges
afforded to my married heterosexual counterparts.The LDS church has
said it's Pro-Family, not Anti-gay. We're not Anti-LDS, we're Pro-Family. Let's
work together instead of against another. The church should help us repeal
amendment 3 and pass LGBT friendly legislation that will protect all our
Btw, religious people do not have to sole right to the word
"marriage/married/marry". My wife and I were raised in different religions, but
practice neither. We chose not to be married in a church and to have a civil
ceremony instead, but we were still issued a "marriage certificate". And no one
has ever referred to us as "civil unioned" rather than "married".If
ya'll still insist that you have the sole right to this word because you believe
it should apply to only men and women, go ahead, try and trademark it for your
sole use at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and see what happens.
To Prop 8 opponents - get over it, you lost. Its more than a little ironic that
the very people who preach tolerance for the gay lifestyle seem utterly
incapable of practicing that tolerance. Why don't you lead by example and show
the same tolerance for opposing viewpoints that you expect the rest of us to
Yes, a sleeping giant has been awakened - those who oppose gay marriage. If
those in the gay community advancing their agenda hadn't done so in such a
confrontational manner, they might be further down the road than they are now.
As it is, these actions by the gay community will serve only to strengthen and
exapnd opposition to their agenda.
The voice of the people have made abortion legal years ago. So LDS
"get over it" The people have spoken. Oopps... We meant only when
the people we agree with have spoken. Keep protesting those abortion clinics
because they disagree with your religous beliefs.OH that is freedom
of speech to harass people going inside beacuse they have different beliefs.
The comment has been made that a gay rights 'giant' has been awakened by the
passage of Prop. 8 - for those who take this silver lining view, you should know
that another giant has awakened, i.e., the majority who oppose gay marriage.
The hatred and intolerance exhibited by the anti Prop. 8 protestors will, and
have, served to strengthen and expand opposition to the gay agenda. Keep up the
Are you really that uneducated or simply disengeneous? When is the last time
you saw any LDS at abortion clinic protests? Let me answer for you never. Or
only very, very rarely.You are confusing us with someone else.
Let's stay on point please.It is not the LDS church (or any others)
out there protesting and spewing hatred and venom-the very thing that you accuse
us of.Go ahead and call evil good all you want-it doesn't change
anything. Good is good and evil is evil and nothing will change no matter how
often you repeat it to yourself.
"Local street preacher Lonnie Pursiful marched five city blocks with a small
group of supporters from City Creek Park to the City-County Building, carrying
anti-gay signs and wearing T-shirts with similar messages."Lonnie
Pursiful is the arrogant street preacher that thought it was OK to yell at
brides as they were getting pictures taken in front of the LDS temple on their
wedding day that they were "whores of the Mormon Church." Funny how issues like
this can make allies of enemies.
Typical Laker fans!
California law gives registered domestic partners the same rights as a married
couple and former domestic partners the same rights as former spouses. No
rights would have been changed with the passing of proposition 8. The federal
defense of marriage act passed in 1999 says same sex marriages are specifically
not provided the same rights as a marriage between a man and a women. The only thing lost was the ability to be married in CA and be able to
challenge the federal law in the liberal 9th circuit.
Go to church on Sunday and do the following:1) Count the jokes and
references demeaning blacks2) Count the jokes and references demeaning
Jews3) Count the jokes and references demeaning Catholics4) Count
the jokes and references demeaning the disabled5) Count the jokes and
references demeaning satanists6) Count the jokes and references demeaning
gaysNine chances out of ten, you wont hear jokes and demeaning
references regarding anything BUT gays. I do this activity each time I attend a
three-hour block. Shame on the Priesthood leadership for allowing
such behavior. Now tell me that there is no bigotry coming from Mormons. When UT has domestic partnership laws and civil unions, then they can
say they are protecting marriage...
Psst. when people attack the Mormon church...fact: more people end up joining.
Bring it on.
FYI-More mormons in the U.S. live outside Utah than inside Utah. In case
your wondering more LDS live outside the U.S. than inside the U.S.#
of jokes I heard today regarding your list, ZERO!
it's over. deal with it. should have done the demonstrations before the vote.
move on with life losers
GLBT group would never looked up or quoted Roman Chapter 1 in any of those
versions of the Bible in whole. This scripture which was applied to Romans does
equally applied to present time gays and lesbians who are protesting against the
traditional marriages. I would like to ask them to refrain from protesting and
get on life with their defeat in dignity.
I live in Salt Lake and am not Mormon. Why the attacks on the church, they only
have a stand as the rest of us and other religions do. To blame this only on the
church is rediculous. The PEOPLE spoke by voting,these protests are not going to
change anybodies mind on this issue. Where was all the support for gay marrage
when the vote took place?
Even if your version of God thinks otherwise.
If the LDS church was pro-gay marriage not one of these phonies would whine
about the "separation of church and state." Gay marriage is wrong.
The LDS church is right. And the phony protesters are hypocrites.
As I read these comment for and against I'm amused at the language and the lack
of correct spelling. People get a life and move on. Let people live their
lives as they see fit; their reward will come in way or another.
If I'm a bisexual, is it my civil right to be married simultaneously to both a
man and a woman?
Standards and Principals do not equal "hate".The lds try and stand
for productive things like marriage, families, welfare for the poor, etc. and
try to avoid smoking, the erosion of families, etc.They have a right
to have an opinion, right? They can also spread their opinion in a free market
LDS=Hatred and I hope the IRS changes your tax status.
TO SanDiegoD:Well, all I can say is "tit for tat", and all of you
liberals in California are a bunch of ridiculous hypocrites! You
ask why we "came into a state that is not yours, and poured millions of dollars
into stripping the civil rights away from a minority group on a ballot issue
that was not in your state and therefore was none of your business."Well, in case you were asleep, two years ago the CALIFORNIA Teacher's Union
came into UTAH and gave a lot of money and support to fight against UTAH'S
ballot initiative for school vouchers. If you want US to stay out of your state,
then perhaps you should follow your own advice and STAY OUT OF OURS.
You didn't listen close enough. Since I started my observations, every 3-hour
block I have attended (in multiple states, not just UT and ID) has had cruel
comments and jokes made about gay people. On average, there are at least five
demeaning comments about gays. The majority of these don't start with 'A gay man
walks into a bar...'Granted, it may not happen in Relief Society or
Primary, but it happens excessively in Priesthood meeting and occasionally slips
into Sacrament Meeting. Most heavily in college wards, but family wards are also
offenders. I found it disheartening when I was trying to do all I
could to fight my gay feelings that priesthood leaders mocked as much as they
did. After speaking with the Bishop and Stake President (both of
whom were guilty), they both apologized and said they didn't realize how much
they were making fun of a serious situation and how alienating that could be.
Later that year, they talked about my comments in both Sacrament meeting and at
Stake Preisthood meeting. It happens all the time. Listen carefully.
I'll come to your ward-and-count-if-you-want.This is just one reason
why many gay people feel that church-goers are hypocrites.
Marriage is not a right. Marriage is traditionally a religious institution that
societies have decided to give a privileged status to for a number of reasons
(social stability, family support structures, etc..). The Prop 8 vote did
not take away any rights. It merely memorializes in a state constitution that
the privileged status of marriage should stay between a man and a woman.Enough with the civil rights talk. No one's rights were violated. California
voters decided to limit recognition of an elevated institution, "marriage", to
that between a man and a wife- as has been recognized for thousands of years in
almost all cultures.
So much for freedom of expression, we used that "freedom" at the polls, and we
did it without bullets, spray paint, and name calling, or attacking anelderly
lady carring a cross. We believe that marriage should be between one woman and
one man. So does God.
The headline ought to read, "Millions stay at home and support traditional
marriage--man to woman."
Hatred? It seems like everywhere I looked, it's the gay and lesbian community
who is showing hatred here. They are loud and boisterous and trying to shove
their lifestyle in people's faces. It's not a political issue, it is a moral
issue and the religious community has every right to express it's view and doing
it in a civilize and peaceful way I Agree.
THe GLBT is right. Everyone, including Mormons, should have voted against Prop 8
even if it went against everything they believe. WHatever! You talk
about LDS members being hateful, yet who is vandalizing buildings? Who is
blacklisting people for their opinions? Hey Disgusted, let's think
about this for a second. Why do you think Gay Marriage has to be voted on and
straight marriages do not? Perhaps because gay and lesbian acts are not
You don't see those of us who voted for McCain out in the streets, intimidating
people, and blocking freeways, do you? Why can't you accept democracy? Why
vote if your going to be so INTOLERANT of the outcome.
Hey! You guys ! Just Drop it!! Prop 8 passed already!Just forget and drop
it and move on you life!Don't waste your time by damaging the
Worship place!Just remember all the Christians are right to believe what
they want to believe. Respect that!We don't demonstrate because
Obama won!! WE ELECTED SO Prop 8 has passed and America spoke it!Drop it
ASAP, this is the last day and Christ will come soon! What a people who forces
others to do what they do that's WRONG!!
I'm a pro-8 person, but you are welcomed in my state of Utah, anytime. We
regular Utahns are not as disagreeable as some of you evidently think we are.
Please come and enjoy our hospitality. A family from France, with whom we
traded houses for a month last summer, (who also visited California) said they
were pleasantly surprised that people in the United States were much nicer than
their press would have them believe.
I have been an active member of the LDS church for almost fifty years and have
attended Church all over the world. I have never once heard a joke or comment
demeaning gays, blacks, Jews etc. I have heard numerous times that we must show
love to all of God's children and never mistreat them. You need to get your
hearing checked or have a serious mental health evaluation as to why you are
hearing things that aren't being said.
Mormons are 0.28 percent of the world. Gays are about 3 percent. The bible was
written by humans.
How is it that you can demand that gays and lesbians just lie down and take it?
You came into a different state expressly for the purpose of stealing the rights
of a specific group of people and you try and claim you're the victim? You say
separate but equal (domestic partners) - haven't we gone through this already?
Do you tell African American that, while civil rights are great,
their movements were intolerant because they didn't "respect" the rights of a
majority oppressing them? Would you tell them isn't the back of the bus good
enough, I mean, it got you where you needed to go, right? Do you tell them that
separate drinking fountains are fine - after all, you still got water from
them...Separate but equal is NOT equal. Gays and
lesbians have a right to protest - read the constitution. It's called the right
to "petition the government for redress of grievances". Let's not forget the
right of free assembly.Reason will win out, logic shall make itself
know, and freedom and equality will soon arrive; just as slavery was abolished,
just as women gained the right of the vote. They will have rights!
With numerous gay friends, my antennas are always tuned in for gay references at
work, church, and elsewhere. While frequent in the workplace, I can honestly
say that in over forty-five years of on-going active attendance in LDS meetings
all over the world, I have never heard one gay joke, although I have had a stake
president that several times encouraged love and support for a specific young
man that was 'suffering' from SSA. Never have heard a gay joke in
sacrament meeting or in an elders quorum or high priest group meeting in my
adulthood. Even during visits to wards in the Bay AreaQuit
exaggerating your experiences at our expense. No doubt you have heard a few over
the years as you have looked to be offended. Perhaps you are a mind reader and
can discern what people are thinking about you.In all my experiences
growing up in Texas and Oklahoma and subsequently traveling around the world on
business many times, I have never met a less bigoted people than LDS. Most are
kind and genuinely loving to people like yourself.On the other
hand-if you want to feel ostracized, please visit Russia sometime-homophobes
How about basic fairness? Married spouses get half of their spouse's social
security at retirement? Gays and lesbians cannot go to a lawyer and make it so
for them? Are all of you who are sure you have a direct line to god working to
make social security fair? If so, I haven't heard it. Also, don't be surprised
that people are protesting your church; what on earth did you think would
happen? "OK, you poured money into my state to take away right from me, I'm
fine with it" . Protest is part of our democracy' history. If you can't take
the heat, get out of the kitchen. How would you like gay people to act, so they
are not "throwing their lifestyles in peoples' faces?
Why don't these protester's march in the predominantly black and hispanic
neighborhoods or in front of Catholic or Protestant churches???They also
overwhemingly supported and voted for prop.8. It's because they don't have the
stones..I guess the LDS Church is an easier target. Try spray painting a black
church and the Feds will nail you for a hate crime.
I find it sickening that the gay community has websites posting information
about the Prop 8 financial contributors, the amount of money they gave, and
their places of employment. What a sick way to harass people who were donating
to a worthy cause!!Voting YES on 8 was not anti-gay. It was to keep the
sanctity of marriage between man and woman.
Wow, I had no idea my church had millions to waste on convincing people to vote
differently than they wanted to, instead of like building temples, church
buildings, humanitary projects, etc. Hmmmm. I realize there's a lot of tithing
being paid, but that money goes to better things than what you claim it was used
I am an active member of the Mormon Church who works outside of the USA. I do
not get to attend church with my fellow saints, nor attend general conference.
Yesterday as part of my personal Sunday worhsip, I was watching the Sunday
morning session of the last General Conference from October. I listened to a
talk by Elder Robert D. Hales, and I was quite struck by his comments about how
we should treat each other, especially those who are not of our faith. Those of
you who are LDS and are posting here, I would highly encourage you to read or
watch that talk before you make any further comments. I am guilty of making some
rather ugly comments to our gay and lesbian brothers and sister, for which I
aplogize and will have to repent. My morals and ideals significantly difffer
from yours, but that in no way gives me the right to say mean or ugly or hateful
things to you. We are all children of a Heavenly Father who loves us all. I will
still fight to defend my beleifs, but I will find a way to do it in a less
Throughout human history, the best way to raise children has and will remain
marriage. This isn't a civil rights issue, its human survival and deserves
meritorious treatment under the law.
I'm not gay but I, my wife and children attended the rally in support of gay
rights.I was raised in the same ugly atmosphere toward homosexuality
as most christians. I didn't know people who were outwardly gay until 15 years
ago and it's been my pleasure to make friends of some. I have to say that as a
whole, they are some of the kindest and most understanding human beings I have
met. As far as living the words of Christ go (and Christ is never recorded once
in his life on earth saying homosexuality is evil or wrong), I find the gay
people that I have met to be much more Christian in practice than most
Christians. They don't hate people for being hetero, they don't try to convert
people to their way, most simply want to be accepted for who they are. And they
want the same rights as the rest of America gets.The gays at the
rally weren't hateful, mean, ugly. They were more than civil and all smiles for
the most part. The uglier people there were the Christians rallying against
them. It was an honor to be there. I was touched.
If women had meekly accepted their lot in life and had not taken to the streets
and protested and caused a general uproar it would have taken them a lot longer
to win the vote.If African Americans had not taken to the streets
and marched and fought for their civil liberties it would have taken them a lot
longer to achieve as well.I would wager that there are a whole lot
of people in some states today which would try and vote to reverse both those
things if voting on revoking civil liberties was allowed. Oh. Wait a minute.
That's what the citizens of California just did when they voted yes on Prop 8.
They voted to revoke a minority group's rights.Lawsuits have already
been filed. Prop 8 will eventually be overturned by the California Supreme Court
as an unconstitutional infringement on people's fundamental rights.In a Democracy, a majority of bigots is NOT supposed to rule when it comes to
equal rights for a minority of it's citizens.
Another Gay LDS man here... I second the sentiment about "Gay
Mormon" above.When I have visited several wards --- there are plenty
of jokes, particularly in Priesthood meetings, about people unlike their
own...oh, shall we say ---* not affiliated with
right-wing politics --- liberals and Democrats are often the butt of jokes at
those meetings. Particularly coming from a church which in doctrine tries to
stay itself away from "politicking"* gays --- To those you
are taught to extend love and compassion, you make jokes at their expense.shame, shame, shame...you know it's true. So stop it.
Pain is trying to explain to an 8 and a 10 year old what "gay marriage" means.
Confusion in their eyes and questions. Sorry to ruin their innocense. I can't
imagine how confused the grade-school children are in MA. Sad day.
I don't remember ever hearing an off color joke about gays while at church.
I have given my life to the Church. I have accepted every calling given to me.
I served a fulltime mission in a foreign country that was extrememly difficult.
Through the years, I have struggled to find a wife. I've done the best I can
and this challenge hasn't been taken from me, yet. However, I know how Heavenly
Father feels about immorality and the consequences and destruction that will
come to those who practice it. Therefore, I choose not to indulge in a sexual
relationship until it has been sanctified by God, to further His plan for His
children. You have that same choice.
"Sometimes men love men and women love women and they want to share their lives
with each other."Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.
Gays and their sympathizers are acting like the naked king who strutted around
showing his new robe that didn't really exist. The 'civil rights' they claim to
be deprived of are just a delusional mental fabrication reflecting their
rationalization of being able to have what ever they want. In
simple terms it's called acting like a bratty two year old who wants another
kid's toy that is not theirs. Sorry gays but marriage isn't a
right. It is an institution created by religions thousands of years ago.
Religions toy...... not yours.
to donalld:Pain is hearing the hatred spewing from people like you
about the "life style choice" that SSA people supposedly make. Most 8 & 10 year
old kids will think that if 2 people love each other they should be together.
What say ye?
I've noticed that most of these protestors are from the younger generation. They
are victims of liberal media propaganda that has taught them NOT to be
God-fearing. When will they be compelled to humility?
Marriage is a religious issue, not a civil one. Homosexuality is such a serious
sin that two cities were destroyed by God to get rid of it. The Mormon
church was not the only church that was against Prop 8 and went public against
it. Many others did too.What is marriage should be decided by the
churches, not the courts. Since the gays cannot win in the churches they have
fled to the courts.For all I care a person can "marry" a fish. But that
doesn't make it a marriage.Marriage must be recognized by God to be a
marriage and God never has recognized same sex relationships.
What church are you guy going to? I am on the high counsel and visit many Wards
(CA). Never have I EVER heard a negative comment regarding gays. Our Stake &
Ward leaders would not tolerate it for a second. The gay community is so far off
on their accusations. You are biting the hand of the most compassionate group
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that 2 guys that made very serious
marital vows and then openly broke those vows to satiate other desires are
arguing for their right to marry?
i think it's interesting that according to the secy of state office in
california, 75% of the people who voted FOR prop 8 were BLACK. why isn't anyone
protesting and vandalizing their homes and businesses. and for the
math.... there are only about 400,000 lds members in california. 5 MILLION
people voted for it. yup, i see where that would lead me to target the lds
church. makes sense somewhere in some universe.
Let us be clear. Worship is to be respected. Prayer is to be respect. Once an
organized church sets out to be a political action committee they have to
understand that they can be critized, debated, called names the whole bit. My
suggestion is, do not set your self up as a instutition of "faith" when actually
you behaved as a political action committee. The church holds some
responsiblity for the division. If the "word, the truth, and the light" would
take some of the responsibility for this divide, they could begin actual
healing. You can not cloak yourself "faith" while engaging politics, and then
say it is inappropriate to critize a person of faith, when really you are just
Millions of people other than mormons voted for Prop 8. The gay community is
targeting the LDS church with their hatred, just what they asked not to have
happen to them. Funny how you throw your "positions" away when it doesn't
Most of America doesn't support homosexual marriage. Most don't care about the
rallies happening across the country. Once it passes (it will eventually pass),
other issues will come up and our constitution will be hanging on by a thread.
Gay marriage is wrong. Hundreds of millions will start home schooling our
children before we allow teachers to teach that gay and lesbian marriage is ok.
To Gay Mormon 2:24...I have gone to church every week for 39 years and not ONCE
have I EVER heard a joke about gay people, or any inappropriate joke. I wonder
if you are making that up. In fact, my husband and I were talking just today
about how even with all this "spewing" that is going on towards the LDS church,
it hasn't even been mentioned over the pulpit. We don't bash anyone, not any
person, group or religion. We focus on our beliefs only. I have to say that I
am really tired of hearing about how hateful and bigoted we are. What the glbt
community doesn't understand is this is OUR RELIGIOUS BELIEF. Has someone let
God know lately that He is a bigot?They are His rules, we are just following
them. We fear God more than man. You don't understand, WE DON'T HATE YOU. You
just can't understand how we could vote against you, but not hate you and not be
"bigoted". The bottom line is we really do believe we will have to answer for
what we do here, and we have to stand for what we believe and have learned from
The so-called gays are proving to one and all who the real intolerant haters
Hey look at me I can type multiple emails pretending to be different people
claiming that I hear gay jokes all the time at Church even by my Bishop and
Stake President... Get real. The Church itself does not condone actions like
this, and I guarantee that this does not happen with regularity, and if anyone
did and was heard, they would be disciplined. Sorry, but the idea that because
I said it in a post on the Deseret News means it is true is ridiculous. Rumor
and innuendo have no place in media, even if that media is a comment board.
I live in the Bay area and have never, ever heard a single derotagory comment
about gays at Church. We even had a gay man in our ward who was very much
beloved. Actually, he wasn't gay. He did struggle with same sex attraction,
but chose to follow God's laws concerning that type of behavior. I was very sad
when he moved away. He used to frequently perform at ward and Stake functions
because he was very talented. I suspect he would support prop 8 because of what
it stands for and I've heard him say out loud that he eargerly awaits the day
when all will be made right. He was good friends with some of the single
sisters in our ward, he wasn't any lonlier than they were. There is room for
Could everybody please stop saying that gays seeking equalitable servitude of
the law is nothing more than gays seeking a justification of their lifestyle???
It is incredibly short-sighted and ultimately flawed reasoning. Besides it is
the religious community which felt the need to constitutionally define
marriage--does that not equally qualify as seeking justification or sanction for
their sense of piety? Also the US is a republic not a
democracy--meaning simply that the popular vote is not enough. If the vote of
the majority seeks to deny the rights of the minority it is the role of the
judicial to overturn the vote. As much as people would like to believe that a
"majority" vote is the height of government, we have to realize that the very
intent of our constitution is violated when a majority seeks to vote on the
rights of the minority. Marriage itself may not explicitly be a
civil right, however, equitable servitude of the law is an unalienable right.
If we still believe that all men are created equal, then marriage as a civically
reconized institution must be for all. These amendments shouldn't stand. If we
destroy our constitution in this way, everybody's rights are jeopardized.
Thanks for all the free advertizing for our church. This is going to be a boost
to our missionary effort. People will know that we are for freedom of speech,
democracy, God given rights, morality, and traditional marriage. They are going to look at the losers who oppose our church and decide they
don't want to be like the pro same sex marriage side. You have all
the God given rights that I have. You can marry someone of the opposite sex.
Your hateful lies about our church and homosexuality are easily exposed. Same
sex marriage is not normal. It is against nature, biology, and psychology. It is
bad for children and society. Your hateful attacks on our church are
just bringing more people to our side against same sex marriage. You have stolen
our property, vandalized our temple, beat up our supporters, and used profanity
and vulgarity against us. You won't accept democracy and the will of
the people. You try to cut off all free speech against your perverted ways.We will not crumble in our resolve against same sex marriage. You have
woken up a sleeping giant that will continue to battle in this war.
The only right that prop 8 removed was to call gay union 'marriage'. Gay couples
already have all the rights of married people in California!But Prop
8 upheld the rights of parents and children to prevent the indoctrination of the
gay lifestyles on children as young as kindergarten.In the end, its
this simple:Protecting children should always trump the wants of a few!
When I read the article, I did not assume that it implied there was violence in
demonstrations. From the articles I've read, the DesNews emphasized that the
protests were exercising their right to "PEACEABLY assemble."You
clearly read this article just looking for something to criticize.
I agree, we would fight back. That's why Prop 8 was passed. Currently, the
homosexuals are attacking marriage by trying to say that they can be married
too. Don't agree? Civil unions have all the same rights as married people in
California. For all tenses and purposes, a civil union and a marriage are the
same thing in California legally. Why would anyone care then? Because they
want to attack marriage and religion. If you say that you believe homosexuality
is a sin, you're attacked for being a "hatemonger". Well it is, just like any
type of sexuality outside of marriage. By the way, if you redefine marriage, I
don't think God is going to agree, so he is still going to consider it a sin
regardless of what the courts decide. That said, it won't stop the homosexuals
from attacking the churches for being against it!
How about the tyrany of a minority? The Mormon Church is being assaulted when
they hardly had anything to do with the outcome, but they are being attacked
because they are a minority. That's why the Catholic Church and the Baptists,
etc. aren't being attacked!
i love the separation of church and state signs.. shows how ignorant people are.
didnt they know that the country was FOUNDED on religious principles? the
separation of church and state means the government does not run the church, and
the church does not run the government. this vote was BY THE PEOPLE. there is
no church and state mixture. american ignorance. and you wonder why our best
candidates were obama and mccain?
I echo the other posters here about gay jokes at Church. I have lived in over 15
different wards and never heard such things at Church. Every member I have met
would be embarrassed to be heard talking like that, especially at Church, and
especially on a Sunday.And on any other days of the week the LDS
people I know are incredibly tolerant. They don't swear and off-color jokes are
rare if not non-existent. Most Mormons have a tough time even with blond jokes
for fear of offending someone.Anyone who suggests Mormons as a
people use hate-speech or speak with intolerance about anyone is either
confusing them with another group of people or are blatantly trying to deceive.
Mormons, like all true followers of Christ, are tolerant of all
people. They love and forgive everyone. What they do not tolerate is sin. Like
Christ, they strive to condemn the sin, but love and help the sinner.If you want tolerance, you have it. But if what you seek is our acceptance of
immoral behavior, you have come to the wrong state and nation.
I'm thinkin gays should have the right to marry and also have the right to
participate in all of the possibilities that go along with it including domestic
violence, cheating spouses,financial problems, divorces, custody battles (maybe)
and property settlements just to name a few. Have at it people -- marriage is
not a bed of roses. It requires patience, responsibility, and hard work to make
it work. Whoever wants to appreciate the joys of marriage should also have to
suffer the sorrows.
After all is said and done,and whether sides will agree and disagree
as to what the rulings...it comes down to...What can be
done legally.Yes, the passing of 8 shows that we, as a society, by a
slim margin only, are still not there, in allowing others to live their/our
lives as we would.And sure it hurts.That said --- we now
have two contradictory legal interpretations --- and both of them will have to
be done by the same Court.Methinks my mind takes me back to Brown v.
Board of Education, when, the Chief Justice sought an unanimous vote by all
justices, to show union with the justices. Are we ready to go there? Or will
we have a split decision? Or even worse, a decision that puts us back in Square
One?The judges' ruling will have to, in essence, state that
Proposition 8 violates equal protection under the law. Does the amendment to
the constitution violate that?In a worse case scenario, will we, as
the LGBT community, have to re-amend the Constitution the Constitution to, in
essence, extend marriage to those of us who are now disenfranchised.
I believe that when voters went to the polls, they were thinking with their
religious minds, not their secular law minds.By far, the
overwhelming argument that I hear is that "I cannot pass marriage between a man
and a man or a woman and a woman" because it is against my religion.Right.we get that.I think the undertone, implied, and
not written meaning behind Proposition 8 was "only a (religious) marriage is
recognized or valid in the State of California."I don't hear an
argument from the side of the people who are not religious, hence my argument.
Further, to imply that marriage is only religious is having a narrow-minded view
about marriage. Would you in essence, based on your religious beliefs,
invalidate the marriages of hetero couples married civilly?Of course
not.Therefore, by the same logic, marriage is not religious in
nature only.If you say it goes against your religion, fine, we get
"The Proclamation to the World."How would you extend "Proclamation
to the World" in the courtroom?A moral issue? Methinks it is a
legal one.Courts may or may not define morality. It is up to people
to do that.
You've been caught lying again. Your fabricated story used to ignite others
against the Church won't work. Just you wait and see. So sad you can't argue
your case based on truth. You have to resort to lies because you have nothing
to stand on. Your rhetoric is pure drivel. I live near SF and have read
California family code 297.5. I've also read what Sir Elton John has to say
about gay marriage and guess what, he's on the side of truth!!! He isn't
resorting to lies. He's telling it like it is. Homosexuals have civil
partnerships and have the same rights of married spouses.
You would be surprised how many investigators are turned off by remarks showing
intolerance.While I believe that most the ideal is to be embracing
and respectful, there are those who are boisterous and say remarks --- oh shall
we say --- of anything that is unlike them.Perhaps you have been in
good wards. I have visited plenty of wards myself too, and time and again, the
intolerance was there. Church Members would be wise to show some tolerance
towards people of all backgrounds and political persuasions as logn as everyone
I will rest my case and say that not all things legal are moral.In
an ideal society, hopefully the two are one and the same. In a hybrid society,
it's a mess, trying to put all the pieces together.Now then, back to
morality, do we allow 52% of the vote to allow to define morality --- by your
own argument?48% of the vote (or 47.whatever) said that morality
should be the other way around.You will have to agree, regardless on
whether you agree or disagree, that it is a very slim margin.And
that as society changes, will we allow the 'morality' to be dictated by a simple
majority?What do we do with the 47%?And granted, one
side will not like the outcome, whatever the legal ramifications of
interpretation might be.In the meantime, a slim win just
made a lot of people unhappy.While some may ridicule, and get this,
here's where the bigotry jumps in --- based on the entries of these comments
alone ---"We don't need 'those people' here" --- referring to gays
who want to boycott Utah, in a tone of condescencion. Are they/we not children
I am so sick of hearing about gay right. I have been appalled how they single
out the views of churches, and cry hatred but look at the work of many of them
destroying and hurting others property. Churches, whatever they come across. Our
nation is in moral decay. We no longer have any morals. You all say Churches
should stay out. Its a good thing some people still believe in Gods laws. I
think it still says in the Bible that being gay is NOT what God intended for us
Same sex marriage is not normal. It is against nature, and biology or did you
not notice the physical differences between a man and a woman. Same sex couples
cannot consumate or procreate. The parts aren't compatible. Children without a
mother are more likely to get pregnant as a teen and without a father children
are more likely to commit crimes. Same sex marriage is bad for society and our
children. There are many nonreligious reasons that same sex marriage is wrong.
It was never intended to be a right by our founders.
You better tell that to my brain, because "normal," as you define it, does not
compute.I get it about the parts. I don't need a biology lesson and
neither do I need to go there.The wiring in my brain, and believe
me, I have tried, as have many of my LGBT friends, have tried, to no avail, to
go hetero.You bring in the argument about children --- it seems like
you're talking about single parents, and not gay marriage.
challenge any of you who are demonstrating hate and bigotry towards the LDS
church, to provide substantial proof that the church has over stepped any
boundaries of civil law in their support of prop 8. Tell me of a law that says
church leaders can't urge their members to participate in their civic duties of
voting and encourage them to one side of a debate. Didn't obama campaign from
the pulpits of many black churches or other religeous groups? Didn't Huckabee
and many other candidates do the same? Did baptists churches overstep the bounds
when their members donated? The church itself didn't donate anything it was its
members along with thousands and thousands of others. Three quarters of the
black and hispanic communities of CA voted for prop 8. Go protest them, oh wait
yah you would be too scared because they aren't an easy target like the mormons.
You are like wolves preying on the weak. All of your intolerance and bigotry is
casting shame on your own message. There is no sleeping giant only the same
roaring mouse there always was. The sleeping giant voted twice even after you
all poured in 40 million, which is more than raised by prop 8 supporters. You
are showing your true agenda your way or we'll scare you all into not voting
agianst us next time. The real sleeping giant is the silent majority of moral
americans who have done the same in 40 other states. Yah or didn't you know
that? You had nothing taken away expect the ability to trample on religion. You
have civil unions which give ALL (yes ALL) of the same rights as married
couples. The results are showing how poor losers react when the public does not
support them. Next time we are going to double our efforts and donations to
protect ourselves from fanatics who openly attack religions.
Saren,Your argument is poorly constructed. Richard John Neuhaus said
"In a democracy that is free and robust, an opinion is no more disqualified for
being religious than for being atheistic, or psychoanalytic, or Marxist, or just
plain dumb. There is no legal or constitutional question about the admission of
religion to the public square; there is only a question about the free and equal
participation of citizens in our public business. Religion is not a reified
thing that threatens to intrude upon our common life. Religion in public is but
the public opinion of those citizens who are religious" and "As with individual
citizens, so also with the associations that citizens form to advance their
opinions. Religious institutions may understand themselves to be brought into
being by God, but for the purposes of this democratic polity they are free
associations of citizens. As such, they are guaranteed the same access to the
public square as are the citizens who comprise them.There is little
doubt that Churches and religious people have a right to participate in the
public square but our beliefs and opinions "should be considered on their
merits." (Elder Dallin H. Oaks)
If we go the way of what was "intended to be a right by our founders" I think
we're going the way of how a Constitution should be.Shouldn't a
Constitution be broad and general without minor clauses and interpretations all
along the way? I believe the founders meant for the courts to do the defining
and re-defining as time went along.I will even go as far as saying
that the Constitution was written by God-fearing men, with some Deism along the
Re: "to legal interpretation,""Same sex marriage is not normal. It
is against nature, and biology or did you not notice the physical differences
between a man and a woman."We don't know whether nature or nurture
influences a person's sexual orientation or a combination of both but we know
society doesn't have a legitimate interest in recognizing those relationships.
Our society has no business in regulating love or any other intangible. Society
has a legitimate interest in promoting "traditional marriage" as we refer to it
because it promotes the nuclear family of a man, woman and their biological
children. We recognize that not all "traditional marriages" will
result in procreation or a nuclear family but the potentiality of bearing
children is sufficient for society to grant such marriages. Simply stated, a man
and a woman may choose not to or be unable to have children but their union
promotes the idea.Society recognizes that other types of families
exist but chooses not to promote those families including families where
extended family raise children, adoptive parents, and families that consist of
persons of the same sex. But society has no business in promoting
those families. Only recognizing their existence.
The difference with gay rights and women's right to vote and civil rights, was
that women couldn't vote, so they fought so they could vote, not so that women
could be considered men in the eyes of the law, and blacks had to have
everything separate, so they fought to be included, not so that blacks could be
considered white in the eyes of the law. Those fighting for gay rights are not
asking that a gay couple have the same privileges and benefits as a married
couple, they are fighting to be considered a married couple, even though the
definition of marriage has traditionally been a man and a woman. They have
already hijacked the words gay, lesbian, and pride. Please don't change the
definition of marriage, so that it no longer means what it used to. Widespread
divorce and Hollywood has already managed to tarnish the sanctity of marriage, I
am afraid gay marriage would dissolve the sacred nature of marriage even more.
You can have your rights, just let us keep our definition of marriage.
Same sex marriage on the ballot is 0 for 30 or so? That is not close. If you
can't win in CA you can't win anywhere. Over a half million votes is not close
and that was the margin of victory for prop 8. Same sex marriage is wrong and
anybody with logic and knowledge understands that. Gays already have equal
rights. They can marry someone of the opposite sex like everybody else. They
also have civil unions.
I am reading the entries about people objecting and using the logic of "I object
to the homosexual lifestyle."Fine, call it a lifestyle if you
want.As a gay man, I suppose I could object to the heterosexual
lifestyle.Does that make any kind of sense?Of course
not.My "lifestyle" is different than your "lifestyle."My
practices and "Your practices" are different.I have never tried to
push a heterosexual person to "accept my lifestyle."That's
ridiculous.For a straight person to say that gay people are trying
to push their lifestyles onto other people is ridiculous --- and no one has to
accept anything.You don't have to believe anything.You
don't have to accept it anymore than, oh, the lifestyle of Australian
aborigines. There's a lifestyle that's different.LGBT people are
not asking any to accept their lifestyle. They are simply asking for people to
let them live. So let them. They don't interfere with your lifestyle. Why
should you interfere with theirs?
I believe you meant to say "Nostradamus" --- but what's with the French
psychic?And by the way, the quote you mention, from Lincoln, "the
government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from
the earth" --- Gettysburgh AddressI believe Pres. Lincoln also had
in mind the whole democratic process --- including courts, not just majority
rule --- I believe that's what you were referring to when you said "Deal with
it"Good heavens --- And by, the way, do you know
President Lincoln's record on executive privilege, as long as you're quoting
Lincoln?Further, no, we will not deal with it.Maybe you
should deal with it when Prop 8 gets overturned. Then we'll come back and say
to you, "Deal with that."
And about Elton John.As a gay man, He does not speak for me.So don't make Sir Elton John the posterboy for gay rights. If he wants to call his union a domestic partnership, let him.Other straight people also do not get married --- there are many variations.
LGBT, like many communities, have their likes and dislikes about how they want
to dedicate their unions.As far as dictionary definition between "a
man and a woman" --- reminder, people write dictionaries. Dictionaries do not
write dictionaries.Dictionaries are actualized, edited, socialized,
and yes, I will say it, they have biases --- based on the writers'
interpretation of the meaning of the word.If dictionaries were not
actualized, what would become of words that have become obsolete, updated,
cliched, become offensive, or rather, the opposite?As societies
change, so do dictionaries. Dictionaries are, in large part, a reflection of
the society in which we live. Thanks for the lesson in etymology.As
far as the argument of a long-standing "traditional" definition of marriage
between one man and one woman, wrong again.
I've been following the terrible situation happening now to the LDS church and
my fellow brothers and sisters in the States very closely.Here in Spain,
same sex marraige and adoption is permitted by law, unfortunately, but the law
was changed without all these demonstrations and shouting.The main thing I
can see out of all this is the hatred being shown towards those who voted for
the law by the "no" voters. Their actions, words etc certainly do not make me
think that they are stable, loving or capable enough of adopting and raising
children in a loving home with respect for all and everybody.
I have to say, as a result of the vandalism and threats against a church that
supported Prop 8, I now have less respect for those who equate "allowing
homosexual marriage" with "tolerance".Of course, the fact that I
belong to said church has an impact on that. But still - when demonstrations get
violent, a protest has become a mob. And a mob is about as intolerant as
anything I can imagine.
Homosexuality is a deviant behavior. The homosexuals will never see this. They
would rather everyone accept their evil as something good rather than turn to
Christ and repent.
The arguments of the opponents of gay marriage are easily turned into the stuff
of satire with a simple question. Will the marriage of Jim and Bob of Arbuckle
City, California, really lead to the destruction of the United States of
America? Answer: Of course, not. The following countries have
legalized same-sex marriage, and straight marriages have continued or increased
and divorce rates have not changed: Netherlands (2001), Belgium (2003), South
Africa (2005), Spain (2005), Canada (2005), and Norway (2008).Im a
straight male, age 62, married 40 years. Im not a Mormon, but I believe that
Mormons are Christians. I also believe that many Mormons now feel that the LDS
Churchs involvement in California politics was ill-advised. Its fine to oppose
gay marriage, but dont make a law against it. Dont restrict a persons free
agency. The percentage of people who favor gay marriage will
continue to rise until gay marriage becomes the subject of a well-deserved yawn.
The young straight people will be the yawners as the old fogies of my
generations leave the stage.
I suppose the Mormon church was right in denying African-American members the
priesthood until 1980 as well? Trust me, they were wrong on that issue and they
are wrong here.This is unconstitutional and oppressive.Forcing people to "make the right choice" was Satan's plan, was it not? We are
supposed to allow all people to make their own choices. We're only suppose to
focus on loving others and perfecting ourselves. LET HOMOSEXUALS HAVE EQUAL
RIGHTS! They are not less of a person than anyone else. If in fact their
marriage is "wrong" then let God judge that. Not us. The church and
it's members are COMPLETELY off-base here. HOWEVER, it is their right to vote
how they see fit and it needs to be respected. They were not the only ones who
contributed money or voted in favor of Prop 8. Leave the Mormon church alone.
However, I hope they realize how wrong they are in this matter.
Hundreds, very soporific.
I don't believe that they should put civil rights issues to a vote by the
people. If states allowed votes on other civil rights issues then inter-racial
marriages and even black people wouldnt be able to marry today. Things progress
naturally and protests are one of the venues for those types of changes.
"New Morality" in 60's said marriage unnecessary= forced by religion- free
love!Then-what done in private was nobodies business- what you didn't
know, didn't hurt you.Then they "came out of the closet" -- we should
accept them.Then they demanded civil unions- and in Mass. they GOT civil
unions- but it wasn't enough for them- they lied!Then said it was HATE
discrimination if they were not allowed to FORCE churches to marry gays in
DEFIANCE to Bible teachings- and threatened to take down any church that
refused! So much for tolerance!ALSO said Gays had the RIGHT to adopt
children (which ONLY come from the union of one man and one woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
and they FORCED their views using the very legal system that had allowed their
"distorted rights"!! They shut down the Catholic Adoption Agency in Mass. so
even adoptions to straight couples were foiled! NOW they continue to
get/call it backwards- as they call those who want to protect the very MEANING
of the word marriage, and their own marriages as the ones who HATE??? This is
Here is the door to marriage.It takes a lock and a key.
Sandra Rodrigues has a very good understanding of Democracy. What
scares me is she was accused of being hate-filled for holding a sign that said
"Support Democracy". From June to the beganning of November we had to put
up with the gloating comments from the anti-8 people about how we would speak
against Democracy when Proposition 8 failed. Now it has passed, and the anti-8
people have shown there colors as true believers in mob action. They have
for months been trying to intimadate people into not participating in the
democratic process. This is a very scary situation to me, when people are
threatened for excercising their rigth to free speech.
Folks, it's a hopeless debate we're engaged in here. Neither side is willing to
acknowledge--let alone, understand--the context of the other.You're
all just saying, "I'm right, you're wrong, so anything I do or say is okay and
everything you do or say is evil." (...or unconsititutional, or hateful,
etc.)Give it up, folks! Quit playing "My tunnel vision is better
than your tunnel vision."
To Kelly, Women did win the right to vote by the normal Democratic
process, not throw court fiat. I suggest you study history some more before
telling us about it.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
To Clark, Since domestic abuse is way, way higher in same-gender
relationships and lowest of women who are actually married to the man they live
with, there is such a long history of distorting the story that there is no
reason to hope that the distortion will end soon.
The 10:35 poster wants us to keep our religion in the closet.
To the 2:24 poster, I could count the jokes and demening references to
people with same gender attraction and would generally come up with zero.
You will never find anything less than a respectful, if clearly stating such
behavior is sinful, reference in church magazines and at general conference. To
find the source of jokes and demeaning references about sexual orientation you
have to look to popular culture not the LDS Church. The problem is that
sexually related jokes are so common in the media and we imbibe them. It has
nothing to do with the actions of the church.
Far from showing that Californias Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of
marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the
crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair
treatment. Mormons should remember this, since you yourselves are vulnerable.
To Becki, If you were really for fairness, you would be after the most
glaringly unfair laws around. These are the laws that make it a crime for a man
to recognize and support more than one woman as his wife, but if he sleeps
around and takes no responsibility for his additional children, it is perfectly
legal. I would believe the argument these people believe one should be
able to marry whoever they love if they were seeking to decriminalize plural
marriage. Since they are not doing so, I have to conclude that there is really
some other agenda, and that people are being disengenous about their theories
about living together. The government has an interest in kepping child
rearing in the bounds of matrimony.
The most negative comments regarding sexual orientation I have ever heard come
from people who would claim to be "enlightened". It comes from church members
who are at least dangerously close to accepting the redefinition of the family,
and get mad when you speak for the core support of the family. Yet they see
nothing wrong with making comments that are at least border line hurtful
implysing that the reason someone is 29 and unmarried may be that he has sexual
orientation issues. It is these people who have taken too much of
their learning from the world and too little from the scriptures who make such
comments. It is not people who have learned to see things through God's eyes,
or even started to move towards such an understanding. They may be members of
the church in name, and show up to church regularly, but they have clearly
failed to let the teachings of Christ cause them to have a new attitude towards
their fellow beings.
I'm straight, but most all gay people that I know believe that Mormons are
Christians. You cannot say this about the Mormon allies in California. They
think Mormons are NOT Christians. There is no hate for the LDS Church, only a
lot of anger at the church getting involved in California politics.I
think many Mormons believe that crusade was ill-advised.
The LDS church once again has violated the separation between church and state.
It should lose its tax-exempt status. It is time that the theocracy ends.
The Deseret News needs to remember that it has a unique mission. That is to
defend the history, doctrine and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints. It appears to me that whenever the Deseret News covers
the debate conserning the homosexual rights movement, it is editorially more
sympathetic towards the gay-rights movement than the LDS Church. Joe Cannon
needs to re-examine the overall editorial policy of the Deseret News and its
place in regards to the Church that it is to defend.Thank-You
The people voted. You lost, get over it!! And do you really think if we voted
on a marriage between a man and a woman that it would not win. What cloud is
your head in.
To redefine marriage to include Gay couples is making the claim that both unions
are equal when they are not. Nature's design of our bodies endorses marriage
between a man and a woman - not a man and a man nor a woman and a woman.
Marriage between two people of the same gender cannot equate to the potential of
marriage between a man and a woman - not by man's design but by nature's design.
It's really quite simple. Proposition 8 sustained an ideal that has sustained
humanity for thousands of years since its inception. Could Gay marriage on its
own have done that? How then can we responsibly as a society claim that both
are equal when they are not. Proposition 8 wasn't a derogatory statement
against anyone nor any group. It simply supported the obvious facts of life.
I thought the mission of a newspaper is to report the news. If you feel upset
that this newspaper's reporting covers both sides of a story, that merely
reflects your own religious bias. Do not expect the media, even in a peculiar
state like Utah, to only side with the mormons. Try, just a little bit, to be
more realistic and maybe even, ummm, fair?
While some folks may never change their minds ---Point in fact ---
some people today hold on sexist beliefs that date them clear back to the 50s
--- and they still cling on to them in the name "of tradition."There
are, however, points to be made and discussions to be had. I say, let all the
discussion on the table, allow for "some people" to re-visit the issue and some
will undoubtedly change positions, one way or the other --You cannot
negate the fact that like it or not, society has become less homophobic.
Example, many businesses now have "orientation" as a cause of harassment where
that would not have happened ten or fifteen years ago. So there is
more discussion to be had. If we allow for discussions to cease, there will be
growth in understanding. Clearly, by reading some of these entries, I can see
people being "out of touch" on both sides --- some are out of touch about LDS
theology --- others are out of touch of what it means to be LGBT identity. You
do not have to accept any ideology, but being an informed citizen allows people
to vote wisely.
While millions of parents sat home with their children helping them with their
homework and teaching them correct principles.
Gays boycott Utah... "Let's get the Film Festival." Nail those liberals in Park
City. Do we really want a trade war? If the Prop 8 people are as mean spirited
as the gay activists think.... shouldn't a minority worry about a boycott of the
theatre, dance, and restaurant businesses in which they work and own?
Thank you--a voice of reason.Mormons are the victimizers in
this--not the victims. Please look at your views and values with
LOVE. When i see love i know it's of God. i don't need a church leader or anyone
else to tell me what love is or what God accepts. if you're not sure--let people
be and let God judge.from a Mormon who beleieves in a God of LOVE
This is not a "civil rights" issue and this is why black Californians who voted
for Obama did not vote in favor of your gay agenda. The fact is, civil unions
afford homosexuals the same rights, but the gay agenda wants more. The reason
you attack the sacredness of marriage is because you want to influence Moral
Perceptions! Marriage historically is based on procreation and the progenity of
the human race, not an effort to discriminate. Gays must not sit in the back of
the bus. Gays are not barred from a whites only restroom or the right to vote.
Gays have the right to live (thanks to the natural act of heterosexuality).
Gays have the right to liberty and PURSUIT of happiness. What other civil right
is anyone else entitled to above and beyond??? True...seperation of
church/state but not God and state. You will not legislate morality.
The arguments that churches shouldn't be involved in this discussion is shallow.
Marriage has been been only between a man and a woman for centuries. To change
that institution is to produce a whole set of consequences of which many are
unintended. Civil unions give all the rights, privileges and honors afforded
heterosexual marriage...without the name. It's not wrong for people to oppose
what they view seriously as a change that would hugely impact family and social
structure in such a way as to take the rights of parents to teach their values
to their children. This whole issue is one of the government choosing to engage
in social engineering according to their values. Courts, mayors, governors and
city councils should listen to the voice of the people. Since the people have
spoken twice in California then it's time to ponder and act not protest.
While I would not go as far as Mr. Holbrooke did, especially since often the
Deseret News is publishing articles from other sources, verbatim, to give us a
feel for what is occuring on the outside, I do feel that at times Deseret News
reporters need to think more deeply on wording before writting articles and
explore the assumptions and impressions language makes. This was not an
issue about making anything illegal as normally understood. If something is
illegal, you can be fined or jailed for it. Nothing of the sort results from
same-gender unions under Prop 8, they merely do not recieve the government
endorsement accorded to marriage. I would point out though that since the
Deseret News is owned by the LDS Church, the 12:44 commentator misses the point.
The issue is not what position should be taken by a paper published in Utah,
but what position should be taken by a paper owned by the LDS Church. You have
to start with an understanding of the discussion and issues to ever reach a
Hundreeds protested? Yah--this movement is dying--we have much more important
issues to be dealing with--the people voted, so let it be written--so let it be
done. Two more words: NUFF SAID!
How about you quit protesting a legal, democratic vote and go back to California
and hand out blankets and food to the firemen fighting to save your homes.Just an idea.
You sorely underestimate LDS doctrine if you think members of this church regret
the stance our leaders have taken. The gay agenda is trying to open up a can of
worms which will inevitably affect Christian doctrine and our right to preach
it. Gay marriage is NOT the end goal. Legitimizing the false morality of
homosexuality is the end goal. Making all accept it and be "tolerant" is their
end goal. Redefining the sacred institution of marriage is a kingpin.We don't care if other religions view us as Christian or not. That is
altogether a different subject, but all religions who appreciate the
promulgation of the human race will stand with us on this.Being
tolerant of every human whim is to take a stand on NOTHING. When it comes to
the obvious opinion of our Creator found in the Bible...I will side with Him on
this issue. I will also be an advocate for Him on this issue.
Richard G! Is the Mormon church the only one that was for Prop 8???
Since the LDS church didn't donate, but individual LDS people did, I'm curious
how the "80% of the funding" figure was arrived at.
Take a class on the constitution and ask the professor if you can base your
grade on your answer to the question of "Did the LDS church violate the
separation between church and state by its role in the Prop 8 Election." He or
she will either laugh, or look at with that "how does this person survive on
their own" look on their face, then give you an "F".
I'm curious as to how many people, gay or straight, LDS or not, have actually
read the church's position (available on their website) on same gender
It is interesting that gays need a church to be a "catalyst to help focus
[their] cause to move forward." If the right to marry
someone of the same sex is so self-evident (i.e. a basic right), then why do you
need a church that supports a ban to act as a "catalyst"? Also, why
persecute a church that raised awareness of the issue - the money spent on the
campaign did not force anyone to vote a certain way.
You say Sir Elton John doesn't speak for you. Why? I suspect it is because he
speaks the truth when he says people are put off by calling civil partnerships a
marriage, and that civil partnerships have the same rights as married spouses. I
appreciate his words and understanding of other people's point of view.
ok..i'm all for civil unions, etc..and rights for the gay and lesbian folks..but
suggesting that marriage falls under the 14th amendment breaks the
rubberband..Marriage is for a man and a woman, period. Maybe we'll
protest.p.s...i'm not a mormon.
The voice of the people have spoken to support Proposition 8.
I laugh when people incorrectly assume that many Church members regret the
involvement in prop 8. No way, I even put my yes on 8 bumpersticker in my
journal so my posterity will know how I felt about protecting their future.
What is really funny is an anti LDS website directed at those who supported prop
8. They state that THREE HUNDRED AND ONE Mormons were against prop 8.
Apparently in SLC three hundred and one people signed a petition denouncing the
LDS involvement in prop 8 and took it to Church headquarters. They don't seem
to realize there are tens of thousands of members in Utah and 13 million members
worldwide. Imagine that, over 5.3 million Californians voted to ban gay
marriage. That's not quite half of the entire membership of the Church in the
whole world. And that number includes children who are too young to vote.
Judging from all the comments here, you should be thankful and grateful for gay
people. Holding up their sin, and keeping their unions illegal seems to be the
glue holding you together.
Briefly -I have to say I am thrilled with this new program.
Regarding the temple demonstrations, have you ever seen so many inactive Mormons
and non-Mormons show up to church?Not only that, I can tell that
many more will likely listen for a prophet's voice in the immediate future. (Oh
come on, that was funny! have a sense of humor.)Definitely an
inspired direction for the church.Churches get to speak on moral
issues. Deal with it.Utah Territory (overwhelmingly Mormon) was the
first to give US Women the vote. Mormons are pro-rights people, but marriage is
based on biology, not just law. Gay marriage would undermine my marriage, and
force churches to condone the prohibited act of homosexuality.I do
not doubt GBLTer's will try again, and may eventually win. If that happens, we
may have to leave again. But stop saying we have polygamy...we gave up polygamy
over a century ago, and it nearly crushed the church to practice it. Yeah, we
know what it's like to be on the wrong side of the law especially on an issue
like this.Kinda sucks, right? Give it up. Change, like we did. Even
and these folks arent moving to conn or mass because why ??they have
relief .. take it .. the majority is pretty pissed for having to
pay so much for the minority for so long ... get the hint minority folks .. .the majority has had a enough ... pack yourselves up and get
back to where you are being accepted .. take advantage just like millions before
you who gathered themselves (pick a group, sect, lifestyle etc)enjoy the trip and quit wasting our time and your time .. we arent watching
and we arent listening .. you have a place of relief .. use it
I want gay rights activists to acknowledge and accept my basic right to
participate in a democratic process.Also, why not single out
President-Elect Obama? His position regarding same-sex marriage is essential the
same as the LDS Church - gay rights ok, gay marriage, no.
I've lived in California all my life, with good friends and neighbors who are
members of the LDS church. I'm not gay and I'm not angry at the passage of Prop
8 just...disappointed at the role the Mormons had in its passage. Our nation was
founded on a compromise position that there would be no religion in the state
for the very fear that one would be used to oppress the others. The church talks
about the freedom of choice for its members and voting what is morally correct,
but I doubt they'd say the same thing if Sharia Law were placed on the ballot.
Further, all churches take advantage of their tax write-off, which is fine but
not when it is thrown back into politics directly or indirectly. Render unto
Caesar what is Caesar's, and leave our state constitution alone, for you're
inviting a whole slough of problems both for the future California and the
future of religions of all types.
Why didn't they title this article, "Millions of Utahns don't Support Anti Prop
8 Rally?" Instead, we give front page press to talk about a "movement" of
"hundreds." Give me a break!
It's quite chilly in here , isn't it? this sounds like a game of "I know you
are but what am I" Peace out!
Are you sure your church is for gay rights? Here in Utah, they weren't in 2004
when they heavily endorsed Amendment 3. Due to that, gay couples in Utah have
No legal rights. Obama is in favor of Civil Unions for gay couples, not Gay
Marriage. Are you sure your church shares the same position?
I don't know what the gays have against Utah. Let's do the math: 12 Million
California Residents voted in the 2008 Presidential election. About 52% of
voters voted against the legalization of same-sex marriage. This adds up to
about 6.25 Million Californians voting against same-sex marriage. 2% of
California's popualtion is LDS. This adds up to about 720,000 Million Mormons in
California. Plus, if you count kids who aren't old enough to vote and elderly in
Rest homes, this is anywhere to 600,000 to 700,000 mormons who could have voted
for Propositon 8, but those who have gay children voted against it obviously.
The people in California have spoken. Stop bashing the mormons.
When I said that Elton John does not speak for me, if I may, I never gave my
voice for Elton John to speak on my behalf.Do you allow for others
to write/express on your behalf? I assume that your views and not those of
others --- or is someone else writing down your opinion?Please
explain.As far as "truth" is concerned --- it is not so much "truth"
as it is opinion. You cannot expect for any community to reach a concensus on
everything 100% of the time. Look at the LDS church, it's split
down the middle for crying out loud --- some devout LDS members are against Prop
8. The LGBT community has a wide range of views --- and you cannot expect that
all members of the community will view this issue with the same lens. My point
being, is there one sole person speaking for the entire heterosexual community?
And who is that, by the way? If so, perhaps you can give me his/her contact
name and I will address him instead of talking to you.Your opinion
made as much sense as someone who does not get out much.
I don't get you fundamental LDS people.Or for that matter, any
person who says "gay marriage" would undermine their marriage.Really?Well, in the State of California 18,000 gay marriages were
performed already, up until this debacle.How exactly did those
marriages undermine yours? Your neighbors' marriage has no power to
undermine your marriage as YOU have to undermine your own marriage.Moreover, the argument keeps popping up, "marriage is a tradition."A lot of things are traditions. Marriage goes back in history.And
so does gay history. It goes wayyyyyy back.That's a tradition also.
I'm using your own logic here.Here are some things that are
possible deterrents to a good marriage:* divorce --- a big one, maybe ban
that. That will preserve marriage in a jiffy.* domestic abuse ---
another big one.* infidelity --- hmmm ---* child neglectI wonder why none of these came up in a Preposition to amend the constitution,
if we are going to use the logic of "morality." Clearly the above are immoral,
ban those --- and by far, they have a far greater impact to affect your own
marriage than your neighbor's.
Re: "Obama and Gay Marriage" --- you raise an excellent point.Many
of the posts on here say that gays already have equal rights.Point
taken. Fine, we'll go with that. Let's make believe for a moment a couple with
a domestic partnership in California moves to Utah. By some of these arguments,
that gay couple, barring marriage, has all equal rights available to everyone
else.They move to Utah, and boom. Where are those 'assumed equal
rights' that you speak of?Oh? You strip those when they get to
Utah?You have no kind of rights for the LGBT community? Am I
understanding this correctly?By your own assumption, you are saying
that gays in California already have equal protection under the law based on the
fact that we in California have domestic partships.Or are equal
protection under the law relative? depending on what state you live in?Let me guess, what will you say? Stay out of Utah politics?Exactly.Utah, stay out of California politics.
Obama & Gay Marraige | 4:01 p.m. Nov. 17, 2008Obama and the LDS
Church see eye to eye in relation to same-sex marriage.I believe you
haven't read enough, my friend.The LDS Church would condone any kind
of gay "lifestyle," as you would call it.Obama would want to extend
all rights to LGBT at the federal level that hetero couples enjoy in
marriage.True, while Obama does not call it marriage, I do not
believe that the LDS Church would ever endorse all rights to gays at the federal
All this over one word, "marriage."Gays want to share the word.fundamentals want the word all to themselves.They do not
want to share their toys in the sandbox.The fundamental kids in the
sandbox say "you cannot have my toys because they have always been mine. Go
play with those other toys, instead, see, they are just as nice, just don't call
those toys 'marriage.' Only my toys can be called marriage."So the
gay kids play with the other toys called "domestic partnerships" and they find
out they are not the same toys. Different toys altogether. Different
playground.Moreover, fundamental kids say "if you call your toys
'marriage' that will hurt what I call my toys and it will give less meaning to
The reaction by a large group of gay supporters to the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-Day Saints and its memberships position regarding California's reciently
defeated Proposition 8 is having an impact on many folks in Florida. The
reaction is mainly that of support. Yesterday the Missionaries in my area told
me that as they have gone from home to home doing as missionary's do they are
getting support rather than doors shut in their face. As they tell folks who
they are many have offered a response of "hey your from the church that
supported the defeat of Prop.8" Then they promptly say, "I appreciate what your
chuch did." In the long run, I believe the protestors will have a great
influence on the growth of the church. The gay protestors are actually helping
the church move out from obscurity in an area where few know anything about the
doctrine's of the church exept what they've hear from a negative pastor or
I would like to vote on this subject in Utah.
EXPAT: What you fail to realize is that this is NOT about being bigoted or
homophobic. We have been tolerant, respectful, civil and have accepted your need
to be together as a family. When we (Members of the LDS community) financially
supported Proposition 8 it wasn't out of homophobia or hate, it was done in an
effort to protect the sanctity of marriage as defined by GOD. We do not hate
homosexuals, in fact there are members of the church who are homosexual and
realize the importance of following GOD's word by doing their best to follow his
teachings. Voting to protect the sanctity of marriage as defined by GOD is not
an attempt to destroy a person's marriage, and is therefore NOT about hate or
intolerance. I don't think the people of UTAH would have a problem with civil
unions. Quit trying to equate your fight with the civil rights movement. The
truth is that your CHOICES don't make you a minority, since you can STOP being a
homosexual at any time. You can't stop being black, hispanic or asian. Take your
civil unions and leave traditional marriage alone.
Great analogy!immature kids and their toys. more like sandbox
bullies!When will Mormons understand that their $$ paid for a
campaign full of LIES and played on people's FEAR. an unrealistic fear. You were
the biggest contributor and you wonder why the protests, the vandalism, the hate
coming your way??? you started it, now deal with the aftermath!!i will stand beside my gay friends and relatives as they fight for
equality and respect.my Mormon ancestors who were persecuted are
rolling in their graves right now. the persecuted have become the persecutors.
sad, sad, sad.
To say the LDS Church is split down the middle, is showing a great deal of
ignorance. I guarantee you that the VAST Majority of members of the Church agree
with the Church's stance. Of course there are those who do not understand why
the Church took the stance, but the majority of them are still devout, active
members of the Church. There is a VERY small minority of LDS members who are
letting it destroy their faith and they seem to be the most vocal. However, the
Church is far from being split down the middle. Many more people will be brought
into the Church because of our position than those that will leave because of
it, mark my words.
We all supported our own views on the subject and one side won and the other
lost. Same with the political election. So lets move on and accept the
One of the basic premises of the field of Sociology is that cultural norms
influence and are influenced by each member of a given culture. When a
particular path is seen as normative in a society, it increases that likelihood
that members of that society will pursue that path. Thus, the
argument that lifestyle choices have no impact on others is myopic, from a
Sociological standpoint. Perhaps it is true in the narrowest sense (that my
choices, alone, have no direct impact on you), but in the aggregate (my choices,
multiplied by thousands/millions of others like me), those choices combine and
contribute to the "climate" of our culture. This is, essentially, a
wrestle over the cultural climate. I can't blame the GLBT community for wanting
to build a cultural climate that is in line with their worldview. But neither
can I blame the Mormon community for wanting to build a climate that is in line
If consenting adults is the criteria for gay marriage then you cannot deny the
polygamist marital recognition as well. Anyone supporting gay marriage should
also ponder if they would support polygamists or other consenting adult
marriages. If not, then a consenting adult arguement rings hollow.
GAY MORMON,I don't know where you go to church, but I would consider
changing wards or stakes or something because you are definitely in a very BAD
one. I have NEVER heard a joke demeaning any of the people or religious groups
mentioned in your post, and I have been in the LDS church since 1993. I doubt
that kind of stuff happens at all in 99% of the LDS stakes out there, but since
we are all human I can be pretty sure that it happens at one time or another.
Being gay does not keep you from being a member of the LDS church, as you could
most likely vouch for, but being actively gay in a sexual relationship would
prohibit you from being able to go to the temple or administer sacrament. Gays
and Lesbians are openly welcomed to our church services, and I would greet and
treat them as I would any other person that walks through our doors to attend
sacrament. If your priesthood leaders are allowing this kind of treatment I
would take it to the Bishop, or if needed the Stake President, who would deal
with it right away.
WHETHER YOU ARE FOR OR AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE YOU NEED TO READ THIS:Gay marriage is coming to Utah.The Equal Protection Clause of the
U.S. Constitution guarantees it....;nor shall any State deprive any
person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; NOR DENY TO
ANY PERSON WITHIN ITS JURISDICTION THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS.(emphasis added)14th Amendment to the Constitution, Section 1.What does this mean? It means that laws that apply to any one of us must
apply to all.The argument is straightforward and simple.Marriage is not defined in the U.S. Constitution as being between a man and a
woman; until it is, the law is clear. Gay marriages must be allowed. To do
otherwise is UNEQUAL treatment under the laws of the land.Proposition 8 will be overturned, if not by the Courts in California then by
the U.S. Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.
Traditional Guy stated at 6:53pm that "The gays at the rally weren't hateful,
mean, ugly. They were more than civil and all smiles for the most part. The
uglier people there were the Christians rallying against them. It was an honor
to be there." I'm not sure which rally you attended, but if you want to see what
happens to a Pro-8 supporter who quietly stands among your smiling, peaceful
protesters why don't you go on to youtube and check out some of the videos made
by people who never mentioned they were for or against prop 8 but were
confronted by protesters. Stop pretending that the GBLT protesters are holding
hands and singing "We Will Overcome". The fact is that most of these protests
involve yelling of obscenities, signs demoralizing the LDS faith and its leaders
and sometimes even violence against Pro-8 supporters (Check out the protest
where grown men grabbed a cardboard cross from a senior citizen and hit her over
the head repeatedly while yelling at her to "Go away, you don't belong here!".
LDS members do not hate anyone for being gay, and accept people as they are. Get
your facts straight please.
Name one right a gay or lesbian doesn't have here in CA. Don't say marriage
because they can get married like anybody else can to someone of the opposite
sex. You can't name any can you. This is not a civil rights issue is it.
I guess you pro same sex marriage people haven't figured it out yet that you can
get married to someone of the opposite sex which makes us all equal. I guess also that you gays have completely stayed out of federal courts on
this issue because the feeling has been that you will lose on this issue in the
supreme court.You have equality. You can't have special rights
because that would make us all unequal.
I haven't heard any gay jokes at church ever, but since gays make a choice to be
gay and it is their behavior which is bizare, I don't see how a gay joke would
be offensive to anyone with a sense of humor. People should laugh at themselves.
I guess none of you ever listen to comedians. Lighten up about the jokes. We
need to laugh when we are attacked for standing up for traditional marriage. I
can laugh when someone makes fun of me. I think you need to laugh also because
you should know that same sex marriage is a joke.
The gay agenda crowd is not going to stop with same sex marriage. Gay pride
organizers allow NAMBLA into their events and do not condemn them.
Same sex marriage was never supposed to be a right according to our founders. Of
course neither was abortion, but twisted judges who apparently could not read
the Constitution came up with that one also. Our founders never thought any
group of Americans would be so perverted as to want same sex marriage.
Marriage has restrictions. You can't marry your father, mother, sister, brother,
underage child, or someone of the same sex.
Yes on 8 won. We actually believe in the law. On the no on 8 side you have
vulgarity, profanity, vandalism, theft, assault, battery, and hate. You also
have gay groups that accept the North American Man Boy Love Association who have
had many of their members convicted of child molestation. Which side do you
think did the right thing?
Homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuals child molest at many times the rate that
heterosexuals do. They pass STDs at a much higher rate also. They have many more
sex partners than straight people do on average. This is not about marriage, but
gays are trying to get us to accept their lifestyle.
I would like to thank all the protestors on the losing side of this amendment
for helping the LDS church to increase our membership. You have given us more
free exposure and good people like what they see. I have never heard the church
talked about in such glowing terms on radio and TV before on a national level.
All of your hate is backfiring on you. Keep it up because it is also hurting
your cause. The more people see your tactics, the more they are against same sex
Right is right, and wrong is wrong. The glbt may win in this lifetime but not in
the eternal realm.
The churches spent how many millions to fight Prop 8 ?... Todays
headline "50 percent more US children went hungry in 2007"Feeding
the hate monster instead of feeding the poor"He who oppresses the
poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors
God. Proverbs 14:31
The Church did not make any donation from its funds. The money donated to Prop 8
was donated by members--Private Donors that are members of the church. The money
came out of their own pocket, not the church's. They had a constitutional right
to do it. The church spends several millions of dollars a year helping out the
poor, not only in the USA, but in many other countries throughout the world.
Many are quick to point fingers, but few really look at the facts--come on.
You are one of the first truly spiritual people commenting on this site, thank
you. You are showing all these nasty and hateful people what the real meaning
of honoring God is and you can be sure it is not with the hateful rhetoric that
is posted on here by so many Mormons.
The amount of fundraising done by Mormons was well out of proportion to the
electorate and the LDS church is only trying to downplay its influence in the
campaign because of the backlash.The church was very vocal in my
ward here in Sacramento asking for donations and urging the members they needed
to "get on the ark." For the church to now downplay its role is truly
RE: "Right is right, and wrong is wrong. The glbt may win in this lifetime but
not in the eternal realm."Since we don't believe in your "eternal
realm" nonsense, we will take our chances. Keep your bigotry for "eternity" and
give us our equal rights in this life now!
The churches spent how many millions to fight Prop 8 ?...Todays
headline "50 percent more US children went hungry in 2007"Feeding
the hate monster instead of feeding the poor"He who oppresses the
poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors
God. Proverbs 14:31Sometimes Donations go to a good cause. The Lord
does not condemn it.There came unto him a woman having an alabaster
box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what
purpose is this waste? For this ointment might have been sold for
much, and given to the poor. When Jesus understood it he said unto
them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.Matt26:8-11
Very true and very concise, articulate description of the church's involvement
and subsequent hypocritical attempt to distance itself. They are not fooling
anyone! Well-said, Martha!
I sure hope you are not comparing Prop 8 with the works of Jesus, he would be
spinning in his grave. That is blasphemous!You had better
check with your Bishop on that.
The same-sex "marriage" issue isn't really about whether or not homosexuals
should marry. It is about whether people of faith should give up their freedom
of religion, freedom of speech, and parental rights so that homosexuals can
Please, please stop saying that gay marriage has anything at all to do with
parental rights...that is NOT true on any level. There may have been some
misinformation about that subject included in the propaganda supported by the
church, but nothing could be further from the truth. Don't drink the
I've noticed a complete silence from those who support gay marriage, to the
questions asked about giving the same rights to polygamists. I wonder why.
I agree that there is little reason for society to ban plural marriage, if
people (including Mormons) wish to participate in plural marriages then who in
society is really hurt? Nobody. If children are raised properly and lovingly by
their parents, who is hurt? Nobody. So logic follows then that you don't see any
reason to ban gay marriage? Who is hurt by it? Quite literally, nobody. Makes
sense to me.
No one's religious beliefs should be used to deny fundamental rights to others.
Gay marriage is coming to stay whether you like it or not.
To the 12:05 commentator, I have lived long enough to realize that if
you are trying to see a fault in others you will assume malicious intentions
when they make comments that have no such goal.
So Martha, now we are going to have quota restrictions on our participation in
the political process? People need to understand that marriage is central
to Latter-day Saint beliefs. We are not deneying that Latter-day Saints
joined with Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, Jews and
others to pass Proposition 8. It does seem every time I turn around a higher
percentage of the money donated was given by Latter-day Saints. However neither
Focus on the Family nor the Knights of Columbus are Latter-day Saint groups, and
both of these donated over one million dollars to the campaign. I would
like to say that Proposition 8 could not have passed without the dedicated help
of thousands of Latter-day Saints, but there were people from many other faiths
who gave of their time in helping the cause and who faced anger and
discrimination for their stand for right.
Please understand, sir, that virtually all accounts of the shameful
proposition's passage indicate that it would not have passed without the
significant backing and push of the LDS church. Yes, there is plenty of blame
to go around, but honestly...it is disingenuous to disclaim the ultimate
responsibility and accordingly, that is the reason for the acrimony and
harshness of fair-minded straight people and all the gay people affected. It is
not any different than saying that African-Americans cannot marry, and no
different than saying that Mormons should not be allowed to marry. You have
singled out a particular group for no reason other than to advance your
religious beliefs. You would all be wise to go back and read the history of the
LDS church and recognize the irony in the persecuted becoming the persecutors.
It is as simple as that and you cannot reason your way out of it with quoting
bible or scripture, those are merely the words of men written for the purpose of
acquiring power and controlling masses of people and money.
Reading all of the hateful comments here, I am concerned that Mormons should not
be permitted to teach my children and I think there should be a voter referendum
in CA that prohibits Mormons from holding jobs in education. That would be fair,
I agree with the other person who posted:It is VERY disturbing to
see the UN-christian comments by LDS members.
to: re J.P. Lambert | 12:58 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008you said:You would all be wise to go back and read the history of the LDS church and
recognize the irony in the persecuted becoming the persecutors. Explain how defining marriage to mean a union between one man and one woman is
persecution. Now contrast that with being denied the right to vote, going to
prison, and having your property confiscated by the government and being driven
out of your homes. Then ask yourself has any of this happened to the gays by
the hands of the LDS Church. How does defining marriage equate with the LDS
forcing their religion on you? On the other hand, gays seek to mold the
definition to suit their purposes.And wo unto them that seek deep to
hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say:
Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? And they also say: Surely, your turning of
things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay. But behold, I will
show unto them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I know all their works.
The LDS church is behind a massive effort to deny basic equality and the right
of marriage to the gay community. If that ain't persecution, honey, I don't
know what is. You can all cloak yourselves in the flimsy idea that you are
exercising freedom of religion, but nobody is fooled. You can quote scripture
as well, but your support of the proposition and your comments here are
Apparently you don't realize Jesus is not in His grave.
Proposition 8 defined marriage as between a man and a woman. This is how God
defines marriage. I feel no shame in following the directions of our loving
Hevenly Father who knows and understands all.
It most certainly is about losing parental rights. Why don't you do a little
research about parental rights in MA where homosexual marriage is now legal. It
isn't hard to find. The truth is out there, now go find it before your
ignorance is even more obvious.
expat gleefully talks of all the things homosexuals have survived and claims
they will continue to do so. Too bad he can't talk to just one homosexual who
survived the destruction of Soddam and Gomorrah. Oh wait, there weren't any.
Prop 8 was not about accepting a domestic partnership registered California
validated in Utah. The fight was about the word "marriage." While marriage is
typically accepted from one state to another, such is not required. A pastor
took a couple across the state lines to marry a couple. When they returned the
pastor was arrested for performing a marriage with a minor with intent to return
to a state in which such was illegal.Should domestic partnership be
federal? Absolutely, but so long as the battle remains the word "marriage" over
civil union/civil partnership/domestic partnership heels are going to be dug in
for a fight.What is most unfortunate is ACT 1 in Arkansas in which
unmarried couples are no longer able to foster or adopt when there is a shortage
of available parents prior to the vote. Children must now remain in
institutions over homes with "Arkansas Families First" throwing kids under the
bus because marriage is so sacred and wonderful that they cannot have a home
deemed imperfect by religious standards but more than acceptable by social
services, physicians, psychologist and other association standards. You
sacrificed children for the sanctity of 1 man and 1 woman. SICK
I want to start by saying that I am a straight married women, age 41. I am in
complete support of my fellow American's having the exact same rights as myself.
It shouldn't make a difference who you are in love with. With all the fear and
hate in the world, we as a nation should rejoice that more people want to commit
to each other. There is suppose to be a seperation of Church and State!!! If
you are a religious organization you have every right to say that you will not
perform these ceromonies but as a nation we have to give all Americans equal
rights, it is the fair and right thing to do. The gay community are tax paying
citizens like the rest of us and deserve every right and opportunity we have.
Please don't let your fears and judgement cloud your heart and what is the right
thing to support. I look forward to the day I attend my first nationally legal
gay marriage. For a country that is so progessive we sure missed the boat on
this one. PEACE TO ALL
Why don't they stop putting all the blame on the LDS church? They weren't the
only ones for prop. 8. If you are going to protest against the LDS church for
taking a stand then you should go after all the other religions that were for
prop. 8 and took a stand for their beliefs.
thank goodness that homosexuals are no longer allowed to adopt in Arkansas. I
hope other states join the bandwagon and protect the rights of innocent children
who deserve to have a Mother and a Father rather than be raised in a home where
sexual pervsion is the norm.
Re: rvalens2 @ 12:21 a.m.Just a minute there. It isn't so simple and
straightforward (in your favor) as you claim.It could also be argued
that a union between two people of the same sex isn't really marriage at all, by
what has been the traditionally accepted meaning of the word. Also, gays CAN
get married the same as anybody else, as long as they abide the existing laws
(i.e., to a human being, of the opposite sex, who isn't already married to
someone else, who isn't an immediate family member, who isn't a first cousin (in
about half the states), who is of the age of consent, etc., etc.) These are the
same laws that everyone has to follow, therefore there is no unequal treatment.
Mormons posting arguments on here is very Christian. Homosexuality is very
unChristian. Christ threw the money changers out of the temple. Just think what
he would have done to a bunch of homosexuals having sex with each other in the
temple. Oh yeah I guess he did send down the hell fire to destroy Sodom and
Gomorrah because of all the wicked homosexuals. Learn about Christ and the LDS
church before you pop off next time. You guys and your ignorance and hate is
overwhelming. You are helping our missionary effort though. I guess you
antimormons didn't think about that either.
A week or so before the election, homosexuals sponsored ally week in California.
KINDERGARTNERS were given a pledge to sign. Parents were upset and took their
kids out of school. The teacher sent home a newsletter saying coming out day was
a day to be remembered. She has pictures of same sex couples displayed in her
classroom. The TV reporter tried several times to get the state superintendent
of schools to answer to question about homosexuality being taught in the schools
to young kids. He wouldn't answer even though pressed several times. This was
the same man appearing in the no on 8 ads claiming it wouldn't be taught in
schools. Google kindergarten, gay pledge, Hayward California and you can find it
and even see the news report from the bay area cbs tv station-kpix.
I just wanted to help this commentary reach the 500 mark.Don't worry
same-sex marriage supporters. We Mormons have always believed that the
constitution would eventually hang on a thread. Your extreme logic will surely
be the road to take it there. Any sane person can see that the government has
no business whatsoever stamping its approval on homosexual behavior. But keep up
the good work. Maybe the government will officially approval of every form of
sin and you can have the world you dream of. I'm just hoping I'm not around to
I find it very comforting to know that as evil is certainly increasing in the
world, so it goodness. We've witnessed that in recent days. The righteous will
band together to fight evil. The two will become more and more polarized, but
thankful to know that good will always ultimately win. It's not who wins the
battle but who wins the war. Homosexuals may someday get their way, but it will
When did we become a "progressive" Country? I didn't hear of a vote. I thought
we were a God fearing country, which is it. Lets vote on that. Learn what
"seperation of church and state" really is.This whole flap is about
morals, not marriage! The reason so many people won't let this issue die is
because of the moral issue. The question was asked before, IS HOMOSEXUALITY
RRIGHT OR WRONG?
aren't you guys suppose to march too! Back to Missouri?, you better remember how
pitiful and misunderstood you were back when as some of these comments are
leading to your prophresy of being the most hated..so just show peace while you
And let me guess, your next argument is "homosexuality is immoral,
the parts don't fit, Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve, we listen to a higher
voice, yada, yada, yada..."When are you people going to have a solid
argument about running a clean campaign?If you are so about
morality, as you claim you are... why is the campaign so much filled with ---
yeesh --- these are religious people?I think Nathaniel Hawthorne had
something to say about that --- he called it hypocrisy.And Arthur
Miller too --- blaming others, finding a scapegoat when things don't go right
--- find a scapegoat, yep, the gays are to blame --- if society comes crumbling
I think it's hilarious when some guy downtown with a "Stop the H8" sign, yells
in your face and then tries to punch you. Heheh.Really pretty hard to be
scared of them though.
You guys are kidding when you say that the gays are making the LDS Church look
good, right?It's a joke, right?Or do you have your PR
people posting comments left and right to deny everything.Next thing
I will be seeing are charts and graphs to show PR's campaign showing the
Church's PR going through the roof.For the record ---*
47% of California people voted against Prop. 8 How do you think they view the
LDS Church right now?* You just made 18,000 gay couples question
the validity of their own marriages. Do you foresee any of them ever thinking
twice about receiving LDS indoctrination into their home?* Marches
and public shows of protest are being done across the country, mind you, not
just California and Utah --- across the country --- How do you think some of
them feel about the LDS involvement in the campaign --- and, please, spare me
that 'The LDS Church was not directly involved.' Plwlease.
When are we going to get a straight answer from you folks? I keep getting mixed
messages:"Yes, we did participate in the campaign, we volunteered
because it's in the best interest of society"and in the very next
sentence..."No, we were not involved. California voters did. The
Church stayed clear of the campaign."Sounds like you're confused
about what your direct participation was.So let me help you out.You did participate --- Hope I have helped you out a little bit.
I have to laugh when I hear the argument that mormons should have spent money
feeding the poor instead of supporting the yes on prop 8 side.If
homosexuals had not illegally married in San Francisco a few years back and then
filed lawsuits when their marriages were disallowed we never would of had to
pass prop 8. Of course spending the money is good for our economy
here in CA. We wouldn't of had to spend so much, but the opposition did. As far as Utah is concerned. It is the most charitable state. It is #1
in charitable donations, so I guess all those mormons are helping the poor after
all. Next time, save us money and keep your equal rights (since
everyone has the equal right to marry someone of the opposite sex) and stop
demanding special rights.
How come you pro same sex marriage people can't answer these questions. What
rights do I not have that other people have? And how am I not equal in rights if
I have the exact same rights?I will help you since you confused
people always avoid logic and you can't be honest when it comes to this
subject.You have all the same rights as all other Americans. You are
equal. You can marry someone of the opposite sex like everyone else can.
You no on 8 people told many lies during the campaign and you continue to do so.
Same sex marriage would have been taught in schools if 8 hadn't passed. Just
like in Massachusetts. Your lies are so easily debunked.
We need all these homosexuals and lesbians to stop protesting like immature
babies (since they lost in this election) and get out there and work and feed
the poor. Why didn't they use that 40 million dollars spent to defeat prop 8, to
feed the poor? I guess they are very unChristian because the Mormons spent money
on prop 8 and still fed the poor. In fact Utah is the most charitable state in
the nation. I guess Mormons are the best Christians after all according to your
To all you left-handed people. Don't you know that your lifestyle is a CHOICE?
And my leader says that your choice is wrong. God only recognizes right-handed
people. It's only natural and most people are right-handed. Please learn to be
right-handed to live under God's laws, or don't use any hands at all. Otherwise
you're a sinner and God will NOT allow any left-handed people into Heaven.Makes as much sense as the Church's stand on gayness.Think
LOVE, be LOVEfrom a straight Mormon in California who stand with her
gay brothers and sisters for equality.
Sure some people that are for same sex marriage now may have a more negative
view of our church. But your protests have turned some of those who voted for
gay marriage against it now. Plus since the country is over whelmingly against
gay marriage, this has given many more people a favorable view of the LDS
church. People see your protests and don't want to be like you. They know what
is right and now they know more about us and are seeking us out more. You people
trying to destroy our church are actually helping to build it. You are
definitely aiding the traditional marriage side. This is called the law of
unintended consequences. The more you cry and whine and try to tear down
democracy, the more you convince people to be against gay marriage and become
more favorable to the LDS church.
You aren't a Mormon or you would know that homosexuality is wrong. You would
also know the prophet is right. You are wrong on both counts. Strike 3 is you
know that homosexuals and lesbians have exactly the same rights as we do. We are
all equal and can marry someone of the opposite sex. You swung and missed 3
times. You are outta here. Save your antimormon stuff for the village idiots out
there. You lost this game and you are playing for the wrong team.
Tenderheart: you rock.I agree with the ideas expressed about how
outrageous the gay/lesbian community's actions have become. If I was making a
choice, I simply choose religion over shaking old women in wheelchairs.I
guess I'm just a softie with old people holding crosses.
Re: Lies | 10:19 p.m.Nice investigative work, you should be on
CSI...So, would they make gay marriage a new class in all these
elementary schools or something? I don't remember marriage (gay OR straight)
being a part of the curriculum at any school I attended.The
government shouldn't have anything to do with any marriages, gay or straight.
Many have said it's "gods law" and it should be kept that way, separated from
the state law. Just like the Constitution says.
Re: to not really a straight Mormon | 10:57 p.mIt's people like you
that perpetuate these issues. So blinded by your devotion to your "prophet" that
you cannot see the real world for what it is. You are denying basic civil rights
to fellow human beings. And they are just that "civil" rights. The bible or book
of mormon have no place in any civil laws.I can only roll my eyes
and shake my head in disbelief at the ignorance and bigotry displayed in your
comments. It saddens me think how many other have the same narrow minded views
as you do.
You have the same rights as all Americans. You can marry someone of the opposite
sex who is an adult and not a close relative. You are not being denied any
rights. I don't have to argue this using religion at all since I know you have
no clue when it comes to God or religion. You are a bigot against Mormons and
other God fearing people. You are ignorant when it comes to the Constitution,
rights, or natural laws. If I was you I would be sad too. Same sex couples
cannot consumate or procreate. Their parts aren't compatible. In CA where I live
you can have civil unions. Which gives all rights without the name marriage.
Children without mothers are more likely to end up getting pregnant or causing a
teen pregnancy. Children without fathers are more likely to commit crimes. A man
and a woman compliment each other and children need that. Even in divorce most
kids get to spend time with both parents. Homosexuals and lesbians are many more
times likely to child molest than heterosexuals. Their gay behavior is abnormal
and twisted. Homosexuals and lesbians have a choice and they made the wrong
In California marriage is taught in sex ed and outside of sex ed in school K-12.
So if 8 was defeated same sex marriage would have been taught in schools here.
It is taught in Massachusetts K-12 schools. They have gay days for elementary
schools there and you can't opt your kids out since most of it is outside of sex
ed. You are like some of my students who don't pay attention in class, so it
doesn't suprise me that you missed the whole marriage thing in school. You also
didn't get that whole Constitution thing either. There is no mention of
seperation of church and state in the Constitution. Please study the issue some
before you opin next time.
Being left handed is not one of the three highest risk factors for contracting
AIDS/HIV. The top three risk factors are: 2. Prostitution 3. Drug Use and the
Number 1 risk factor? 1. Homosexual sex. Please verify with the Center for
Disease Control and the World health Organization.
You seem to have missed that children in Arkansas AREN'T going to homes with one
husband and one wife because those homes ARE NOT available. Worse still is that
homes with two females or two males or even 1 male and 1 female that are not
legally married but loving and capable of being good parents were excluded in a
state with a SHORTAGE of foster and adoptive parents. Again, you sacrificed
children to institutions to protect the "sanctity of marriage." Do you really
not remember the Romanian children damaged by these institutions? Again, 1 man
and 1 woman as married are not presenting themselves as foster and adoptive
parents. So the children are being sacrificed for your cause.
Well, since marriage is a religious institution it has no business in schools or
government. Separation of church and state is part of the First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" So if marriage is an establishment of
religion the state has no right to govern it.I think gay marriage
should part of the sex ed program in schools. School should prepare our children
for anything and everything that life can throw at them. Education is the
answer, ignorance only breeds bigotry.
No one has denied that thousands of Latter-day Saints participated in a
grassroots campaign to pass Proposition 8. We joined with other people of faith
to accomplish this. Just read the statements of the Catholic Bishop of
Sacramento on this issue. However, as I have pointed out before, these
were Latter-day Saints living in California who participated in the campaign.
Re: to Oxy Ignorant | 12:15 a.mGays and Lesbians cannot marry the
person they love. (Obviusly it still has to be an adult and not a close
relative)So, they do not have the same rights that you do. You should stick to
reading your church propaganda, and keep your nose out of business that doesn't
pertain to you.You are not a "god fearing" person.Fear
IS your god.That fear, is controlling every aspect of your life.
To the 8:59 commentator, I have known people who have waited for years
to adopt children. So either Arkansas has too localized a system or there are
other problems. Also, I was not aware that the meaure in Arkansas had any
effect on foster care. Maybe if state's did not mass evacute 300 plus
children when they only had anecdotal evidence of abuse in one or two households
in the neighborhood they would not have overloaded foster care systems.
A darn good thing God didn't start out with Adam and Steve... or Adelle and Eve
for that matter. Where would we be today?This know also that in the
last days, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of thier own
selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents,
unthankful, unholy.WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, trucebreakers, FALSE
ACCUSERS, INCONTINENT (lacking self-control), fierce, DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT
ARE GOOD, traiters, heady, (bold in their iniquity), high-minded, LOVERS OF
PLEASURES MORE THAN LOVERS OF GOD, from such turn away.2 Timothy
3:1-5Welcome to the last days! Who's on the Lord's side, whom? Now
is the time to show, We ask it fearlessly...
Most people who adopt their children out want a good moral mom and a dad for
their children.... NOT 2 dads or 2 moms-- this would NOT be fair to the child.
Parents should always make certain when adopting out their children that he/she
will NOT be placed in a gay home. It should also be in writing.
Far from showing that Californias Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of
marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the
crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair
treatment. Mormons were once such a group and it is not hard to imagine that
they could be again. Be wise and think about that for a while...
There's the possibility the Amendment will be ruled Unconstitutional-Again.
The people you know that are waiting to adopt have waited for years because they
want a baby. Not all children eligible for fostering or for adoption are pink,
perfect and infants. Some have heart defects relating to a drug addicted mother
or just nature, some have fetal alcohol syndrome, some have renal issues and
various other problems. Sorry, but for those children very few are waiting and
some that were happened to be homosexual and now are ineligible. Yeah, those
kids are better of institutionalized than is a gay loving home? Sorry if I
rolled my eyes on that one.You also might want too remember that it
was Texas, not Arkansas that mass evacuated children from their non-standard
homes.-volunteer for special needs children in the system
Where did you get your information from? It is simply not true, in fact you
made it up. It's disgusting. It is people like you who perpetuate hate (and
probably the same ones who believe Obama is a Muslim).
For the last time, THIS IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE!!!!! You have every right we
do, and I am sick of you and your pathetic sign waving!! Also, please, quit
comparing this to segregation and slavery. This is nothing like that. Gender is
not a choice, so segregation is wrong. Race is not a choice, so slavery is
wrong. But, for the love of Pete, dont try to tell me that homosexuality is
something that you are born with. YOu can choose to stop at any time. Please
The LDS commenters on here who are so sure that homosexuality is a choice, it's
completely laughable. You think it's true because, hmmm...you are gay yourself?
(in that case, I might believe you) OR your pastor told you so? You read it in
a mormon book? you saw it on a mormon tv station? your incorrect idea is
certainly not from any intelligent or intellectual training or experience.
Those of you who have said so, demonstrate the tragedy of bigotry in its truest
form, sadly. And it shows that people in UT seem to be very poorly educated.
I agree with Mormon Defender, who got his/her facts straight with the voting. I
have a couple of things to say to those who are homosexuals or supporters of
homosexuals out there who say that if you don't support gay marriage you are
violating the constitution by taking away their "right to marry" somebody of the
same sex. Well, take a good look at yourselves: shooting out windows at LDS
Churches in some areas in Utah, fires at seminary buildings, trying to bann
Utah. If that isn't ignorance, I don't know what is.
I believe gay people have the right to decide who they want to date/live with/be
with, etc., the right to fair housing and employment (unless working for a
church or Christian organization), the right to leave their estate to whomever
they please and the right of visitation in hospitals, etc.However,
marriage is not a civil right.You also do not have the right to
force others to accept homosexuality as normal, equal to heterosexuality, etc.
If you really want to understand hypocrisy, turn to the article on this very
website regarding the 21 children recently seized from Evangelicals. We can
deal with the children in Texas that were seized from Mormons some other time.
Both stories completely neutralize your support of Prop 8 and show the religious
community to be the hypocrites and bigots that they are.
What bothers me about people like you is that you label anyone who doesn't buy
into your way of thinking as a moron or a bigot.Labelling everyone
in Utah or all LDS people as brainwashed, uninformed, and bigoted is at least as
ignorant and bigoted as those you accuse.For the record, the jury is
far from in on whether homosexuality is a choice, in-born, or varies according
to the individual.FWIW, I am LDS living in a Blue State but was
educated in Utah and I have done well in my profession and even finished #1 in
my Masters' Program here in my new state. So, not everyone from Utah is a
poorly educated bigot as you say.It seems to me that you are the
bigot by labelling an entire group of people a certain way. I also wonder how
you and those of your type honestly expect to change the minds of people you've
just finished insulting.
Joke said:The LDS commenters on here who are so sure that
homosexuality is a choice, it's completely laughable. You think it's true
because, hmmm...you are gay yourself? (in that case, I might believe you) OR
your pastor told you so? You read it in a mormon book? you saw it on a mormon tv
station? your incorrect idea is certainly not from any intelligent or
intellectual training or experience. Those of you who have said so, demonstrate
the tragedy of bigotry in its truest form, sadly. And it shows that people in UT
seem to be very poorly educated.Actually, there is no definite
proof that a gene for gayness exists. It is all hypotheses. Therefore, until
researchers can conclusively prove the existence of the gene, you cannot with
any verifiable evidence claim homosexuals are born that way.
I am glad that there is one educated person commenting on here, so you would
probably agree then that the people I am referring to do not appear to be
educated. I myself AM gay and I am very well aware that it is not a choice in
any way and there is not a single person I have met in the gay community who
feels it is a choice. I would hope then, you might agree that at the very least
it is extremely insulting to be told it is a choice by people who clearly have
no clue and no education regarding this matter AND as I said previously, are
merely parroting what they've heard in their religious circles.
I cannot answer for you whether it is a choice or not because I am not you. I do
have 3 very good friends who went to counseling because they were sexually
assaulted as teenagers by grown men. They struggled with whether they were gay
or not. I would hate to see the kind of counseling they received outlawed as
their situation seems cleary different from yours.
I know several gays and lesbians who said that it was a choice to be that way.
You people need to widen your circle of friends and stop telling the big lie
that you don't have a choice.
The first amendment prohibits the government from establishing a national church
and prohibits the government from interfering in religion. There is no
separation of church and state in the Constitution. Marriage is not just
religious, the government sanctions it and regulates it. Religions and their
people can make their views known just like all Americans. Its called freedom of
speech. Stop attacking the LDS church and take a look at your own lives. When
you have done as much good as the LDS church then you can pop off, but that will
You quoted the first amendment, but there is not separation of church and state
in the Constitution. It just stops government from setting up a state church and
interfering in people exercising their religion. Churches and religious people
can influence government policy all they want. At least you were honest that you
want gay marriage taught in school. Totally confused and illogical, but honest
on that point. Marriage is a societal concern, so government regulates it.
Teaching gay marriage in schools is just like advertizing it. More people will
make the wrong choice to be gay especially if it is taught to elementary
students like in Massachusetts. Unfortunately propaganda works, and you want to
brainwash children to take your side. Education is great, but false gay
propaganda is bad for children and society.
The LDS church ended up on the wrong side of the Race as well. One day we will
look back at this as another embarrassing moment in the Church's history. -even democracy was once a liberal movement-
to 3:45pm post:It is the truth. You may hate the truth, but it doesn't
change it. One third of child molestations are same sex done by homosexuals and
lesbians. Homosexuals and lesbians are 1-3% of the population. This means that
homosexuals and lesbians are many times more likely to child molest than
heterosexuals. It doesn't say every gay person is a child molester, but that
they are much more likely to commit that crime. This has been reported in the
media. Its not to hard to figure out.
You same sex marriage types really should educate yourselves more on this issue.
There is so much basic stuff you don't know. Many homosexuals and lesbians were
molested by same sex predators as children. This is typically a major reason why
they choose the lifestyle. I feel bad for anybody who is a victim of this
horrible crime, but they weren't born that way.
One of the problems with the same sex marriage side is that the people they
support do not have standards of what is right and wrong. At gay pride events
they allow in NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love Association and refuse to
codemn them. This group has had many of its members convicted of child
molestation. They advocate for legalizing gay sex with young children. These are
the kind of people you support.
Homosexuality is a behavior--there is nothing biological about it. There is no
homosexual gene. Sorry, there is no third sex; only male and female. You
were born from a man and a woman; your own existence destroys your platform.
Evangelicals!!Look at the story on the Deseret News posted on Nov
18th!! You bigots will learn something about what happens when religion enters
It is amusing when LDS members talk about their leaders getting direction from
"the lord"....Are you seriously suggesting that the leaders of your church are
taking their direction from god?? No wonder most Americans think that mormons
are a cult. Is that like when your "prophet" had a 'vision' that blacks should
be accepted in your church, coincidentally about the same time as the church was
about to lose its tax-exempt status for that very reason. That is communicating
with god alright, the god of money and greed. I was interested to read Brigham
Young's quote: Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If
the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of
Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always
be so.I am sure that you all think this was the word of god too,
right?My fellow people of tolerance and wisdom, don't waste your
time here, a cult is a cult is a cult.
Huh?Where else would a prophet get his direction? Every prophet in
the Bible took direction from God, why not now? If God is "the same today,
yesterday and tomorrow," why would He not continue to takl to prophets?Do you also consider the Catholic Church to be a cult? The Baptists? Is any
church who disagrees with your stance a cult?That may be your
definition, but certainly not the consensus.
Ill take the bait on that. Everything Amusing said is correct except he should
include all religions in it. In my opinion, religion itself is a far greater
danger than homosexual marriage ever could be. Religion is silly, no matter
what clubhouse of a church you go to. Advocating one over another is senseless.
Can we have some rational thought now? Is it even possible to argue an issue
without including some alice in wonderland religious point of view.
You said: "Unfortunately propaganda works, and you want to brainwash children to
take your side."Did you baptize your children into your church? Or
did you wait until they were 18 and let them make their own choice?? I'd bet you
didn't wait.Your logic is so far fetched and out of touch with
reality, it's simply astounding. Oh, and by the way...It's not a
choice to be gay.
It's not a choice to be gay. I can tell you that from experience. Unless you're
gay, you don't know. You also don't know what it's like to be reviled by so many
around you, even if you've never acted on your affections, just because you feel
the way you do.It IS a choice to be a bigot. Or to open your
heart.Don't you know that "the letter kills but the spirit gives
Should I believe posters I don't know that tell me that being gay is not a
choice or do I belive friends that said they made the choice to be gay? I think
I will go with my friends on this one. They are gay and said it was a choice to
be that way.
My friend with a gay son said she made the choice to be a lesbian. Sheryl
Swoops, a WNBA player was honest enough to say she made the choice to be a
lesbian. There are thousands of other homosexuals and lesbians who said they
made the choice to be that way also. Why do you gay poster continue to lie about
this lifestyle not being a choice.
I have made choices all my life. Little children make choices. Apparently only
homosexuals and lesbians never make any choices in life. Talk about twisted and
confused logic. Stop trying to justify your behavior by saying you have no
responsibility for your actions.I don't have to smoke to know that
smoking is bad. I don't have to be gay to know it is wrong and you are making a
choice to be that way. What I have found is that the person who calls others
bigots is usually the only one with the bigotry.
To: Question | 12:47 a.mand Children can make choices | 1:06 a.mI don't believe sexual preference is a choice. You cannot choose who or what
you are mentally and physically attracted to. I believe those gay people that
say it was a choice simply mean that they have accepted their attraction to
members of the same sex and chose to pursue it. People don't just decide one day
to be attracted to something. A man could be attracted to a woman, and he
chooses to act on that attraction. Does me he chose to be attracted to her? No,
he merely chose to act on his desire. Does that mean he chose to be straight?
No. Can you recall at what stage of your life that you consciously
decided, "Well, I think I will like members of the opposite sex?" You didn't,
you just knew, it was not a choice you made, you just knew. The same is true for
Thank you for packaging your "choice" posting in a concise and intelligent way
that the haters on here just might be able to understand. Also, I
believe that the people who posted saying that 'their friends' told them it was
a choice are either utterly lying to perpetuate the notion or do not understand
what their friends have told them (along the lines of what you said: it is a
choice to accept who you are or pretend you can change it. Anyone who actually
is gay knows that there is nothing in this universe that you can do to change
it). Anyone who is NOT gay (most of you posting on this topic), just shut up
because you don't know you are talking about and you cannot possibly...you are
not gay. So give it a rest!
is that what the prophet is doing? not in my book. the GOD i believe in is a GOD
of LOVE, not fear. Gay marriage does NOT change your marriage at all and it
hurts noone. Don't try to equate it with pedophilia or other sex that has
victims.all this anti-gay rights stuff is born of fear. let your
brother live as he chooses (remember free agency? remember your polygamous
heritage?)and let GOD judge their hearts.
To those who say it is a choice to be gay:I chose to live a gay
lifestyle!1) It is recognized by the general authorities of the
church that being gay is not a choice. (They offer a life of celibacy to gay
mormons--and no longer encourage marriage to the opposite sex).2) I
didn't choose to live the gay lifestyle until the age of 29, after I had dated
girls and was unable to feel sexually aroused by them (I have never been able to
be sexually aroused by women, I'm probably a Kinsey 9 or 10). 3) My
family fasted and prayed each fast Sunday with my homosexual feelings for 3
years. Occasionally, my extended family held a special fast. My name also graced
the prayer circle at the temple.4) I went to LDS Social Services for
three + years and met with my bishop almost weekly for five years.5)
I remained a virgin until I was 31.6) I attended church and did all
I can to remove the feelings. The feelings/inclinations never left.
It is not a choice to be gay. It is a right to be compensated
monetarily for being heterosexual.
Bless you. Regardless of how the Church or other people feel, I bet God loves
you just the way you are--gay. from a straight woman standing beside
her gay brothers and sisters.
Polygamy WAS part of the LDS church but it was not practiced by everyone and is
not practiced by any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
today. you are thinking of the FLDS people. two totally opposite things. and it
is Mormon not Morman.
Thank you ---I don't know why some heteros equate being gay with
smoking.Really!I am also gay and I don't smoke --- and
the two cannot be further apart --- poles apart.Let me ask you
hetero incapacitated ---When you look at someone atractive of the
opposite sex, do you choose to be attracted to that person or does it come
naturally?I rest my case.You do not choose. Your
hormones --- your wiring --- not just your biology --- determines
attraction/orientation/identity.Heteros that do not see that are too
preoccupied with their own notions of what it means to be hetero --- that they
don't think that not everyone thinks the way they do.We do not
choose to be this way.Like previous person said --- had we a choice,
I would have chosen a life of non-harrassment, non-teasing, non-prejudice for
four decades now.Have I given the opposite sex a chance?Yes.And I choose --- and I said it, I choose, not to break anymore
hearts of the opposite sex.It is not fair to them and it is not fair
to me.So quit your high and mighty speak.