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Top court ponders Pleasant Grove case
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Not a First Amendment Issue | 4:50 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The Ten Commandments are historically linked to the laws of the United States.
Hence, they can be found etched into the U.S. Supreme Court Building and in
courtrooms throughout the nation. Display of 10 Commandments in a court neither
endorse or dismiss any religion. They have never nor will they ever compel
government to force a particular religion on anyone. Although we live in a
pluralistic society today, our roots as a nation are historically Christian.
Freedom of speech for the 10 Aphorisms has not been denied. They may be spoken,
published, worshiped, put on billboards, etc with no recourse from Pleasant
Grove or the U.S. Supreme Court. This case should not have been considered as a
First Amendment issue. It's an argument of which even the U.S. Supreme
Court is trying to make sense.
Holy Cow | 5:05 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
And the decline begins...
Disagree | 5:15 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I will say it again and hope you religious bigots will listen: The United States
of America is NOT a "Christian Nation". It never has been. It never
will be. It is not "historically Christian" and it is does not have
"Christianity" as its basis or foundation or roots or anything else.
Anyone who says otherwise is selling something... usually their own religious
bigotry!
Comments continue below
Chief Justice Roberts | 5:16 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Today, Chief Justice Roberts said a declaration that the Pleasant Grove monument
was government speech would make it harder for the city to argue that it
wasn't favoring one religion over another. "You're really just
picking your poison, aren't you?'" he asked the town's
lawyer, Jay Sekulow.
Come on, we all know the Religious Right doesn't really believe in religious equality. Of course they're hypocrites!
Come on, we all know the Religious Right doesn't really believe in religious equality. Of course they're hypocrites!
Thomas Jefferson | 5:28 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Where the preamble [of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom] declares,
that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion,
an amendment was proposed by inserting the words �Jesus
Christ,� so that it should read, �A
departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our
religion;� the insertion was rejected by a great majority,
in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the
Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of
every denomination.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1743 - 1790
-- Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, 1743 - 1790
Steve | 5:44 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The person who "disagrees" that this is a Christian Nation says that
it never has been nor will be a Christian nation. You don't say why it
isn't, just that you don't think it is. Where are your arguments for
your opinion? The Founding Fathers of our nation said prayer before and after
every meeting to establish this great nation. They even said in the Founding
documents that we are a nation under God.
Where are your arguments against what they did? You just have an opinion.
Where are your arguments against what they did? You just have an opinion.
Anonymous | 5:47 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The ten commandments have NOTHING to do with our country or our laws. Only two
of the ten are even laws in this country, and those two are pretty much common
sense. Our country was set up on freedom and our laws are based on where your
freedom runs into mine.
Dont kill and dont steal are the only 'commandments' that are in our laws.
Dont kill and dont steal are the only 'commandments' that are in our laws.
Disgree with Disagree | 5:48 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Mr. or Mrs. "Disagree",
It's a phrase like "you religious bigots" an inherently bigoted remark?
It's a phrase like "you religious bigots" an inherently bigoted remark?
Robert Oh | 5:48 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
10 commandments - basis of our laws?
Well except for those first five. Nothing in the constitution about half of the 10.
Keep grasping.
Well except for those first five. Nothing in the constitution about half of the 10.
Keep grasping.
Disgree with Disagree | 5:50 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Disagree,
Isn't a phrase like "you religious bigots" an inherently bigoted remark?
Isn't a phrase like "you religious bigots" an inherently bigoted remark?
Anonymous | 5:51 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
With a wink and a nudge, we've chosen the first among equals, the trump
card in what we'll pass for religious freedom. Getting called on it calls
into question the whole concept of religious freedom, and whether or not we
really believe in it when the rubber meets the road. More often than not, we do
not. This idea that there is no religious symbolism in the park or court is
laughable when there is a tablet of rules, each beginning "thou
shalt". Sure, it's historic, inasmuch as that history is religious,
and pretty much all religion draws heavily on history. So, invite everyone to
the table. Their religion is, or will be, our history. If that seems unworkable,
then ask whether religion, which so mightily divides us, belongs in the common.
Robert Oh | 6:08 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Steve, How about these?
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were not religion in it."
-John Adams
"I am not a member of any Christian church."
-Abraham Lincoln
"Lighthouses are more useful than churches."
-Benjamin Franklin
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
-Thomas Jefferson
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were not religion in it."
-John Adams
"I am not a member of any Christian church."
-Abraham Lincoln
"Lighthouses are more useful than churches."
-Benjamin Franklin
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
-Thomas Jefferson
Steve 2 | 6:37 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Don't get off base now. This nation was founded by a basically Christian
group but not founded on the laws of the Lord. This case is about mixing those
two elements - religion and law - but it was decided long ago to separate church
and state. If the park is government owned then no religious monuments, period.
This is not a religious issue. This is understanding what government is or was
and not trying to have your cake and eat it too. Don't make this a
religious argument, it only proves you don't understand the real issue at
hand.
Simple | 6:38 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Pleasant Grove's property, they can do as they wish.
The truth | 6:46 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
IF the founding fathers intended "sponsor" or "endorse" or
"prefer" they would have used those words.
They used "respect an establishment".
People who believe in Summan have not been impeded in there ability to establish or practice their religion or even talk about it or pubh iinformation about it.
This about putting up a Monument in a park. Which is an action and a thing.
Actions/things are not protected in the constitution.
They are not speech without twisting the constitution to have no meaning at all.
As such, it should be left up to the community to decide,
Any power NOT given to a higher level must necessarily fall to the lowest level of governance.
RE: ROBERT OH:
Very deceptive, taking quotes out of context to make point. A typical liberal tactic.
They used "respect an establishment".
People who believe in Summan have not been impeded in there ability to establish or practice their religion or even talk about it or pubh iinformation about it.
This about putting up a Monument in a park. Which is an action and a thing.
Actions/things are not protected in the constitution.
They are not speech without twisting the constitution to have no meaning at all.
As such, it should be left up to the community to decide,
Any power NOT given to a higher level must necessarily fall to the lowest level of governance.
RE: ROBERT OH:
Very deceptive, taking quotes out of context to make point. A typical liberal tactic.
MIDutch | 6:53 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Riiiiight. The Ten commandments are certainly recognized world-wide as Buddhist
or Hindu tenents. I think I saw them on a picture of a temple somewhere in
India.
Nah, no promotion of one particular religion over all others there.
Just be honest. If you are going to claim that there is freedom of religion (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), but that the US is a "christian" country, just come right out and say it, "NO other religions are wanted". Come on, you KNOW you want to.
Nah, no promotion of one particular religion over all others there.
Just be honest. If you are going to claim that there is freedom of religion (wink, wink, nudge, nudge), but that the US is a "christian" country, just come right out and say it, "NO other religions are wanted". Come on, you KNOW you want to.
l | 7:47 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
so what, let summum pay for a 7 aphorisms monument; as long as they pay for it
and it fits in reasonably well with the design of the park, just let them do
it...who does it hurt?
the 7 aphorisms are not offensive, but a possible argument is that allowing this group's monument would mean they'd have to allow any group's monument, even from a group with extremely offensive beliefs, but as long monuments are required to be paid for with private dollars and do not contain offensive content, there should be no future issue either
the 7 aphorisms are not offensive, but a possible argument is that allowing this group's monument would mean they'd have to allow any group's monument, even from a group with extremely offensive beliefs, but as long monuments are required to be paid for with private dollars and do not contain offensive content, there should be no future issue either
Anonymous | 8:09 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The 7 aphorisms do not belong in a public park!
kidnephi | 8:17 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
What you need to do is go to the SUMMUMS web site and read what they are all
about. Then you can really decide if you want this so-called religious group
(it amazes me that this group can be considered a religion with tax exempt
status)erect their philosophies on a monument in Pioneer Park. Have the city of
Pleaseant Grove give/sell the site to the LDS Church and let them take care of
it. End of discussion.
Not that it matters, but: Pagan | 8:35 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Does anyone know whether this case was tried in the Utah Supreme Court? If it
was, could you please give the case name or number so I can look it up? Thanks.
Eric | 8:53 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
There are several empty lots within a block of the park. Let Summums purchase
one of the lots, erect its monument and donate the newly appointed sanctuary to
the city. This is the way most cities aquire land for parks: from private
donations of lands and funds. Watch and learn - if the courts rule in favor of
Summums there will be a decline of private land donated for public use,
generally.
Paying for this? | 9:15 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Our tax dollars at work!
Along with this, I think we should also allow graffiti as freedom of speech (facetiously said, of course)! In many places graffiti parks have been opened to allow this this type of freedom of expression, but they have their own place and purpose. If this group wants to express their religious beliefs, they have the option to create their own park with it's own purpose that no one else can touch. Is this really a case of freedom of speech or trying to prove a point, pitting religion against religion, thereby wasting taxpayer's money! People, I really find it hard to believe that we are wasting brain cells on this.
Along with this, I think we should also allow graffiti as freedom of speech (facetiously said, of course)! In many places graffiti parks have been opened to allow this this type of freedom of expression, but they have their own place and purpose. If this group wants to express their religious beliefs, they have the option to create their own park with it's own purpose that no one else can touch. Is this really a case of freedom of speech or trying to prove a point, pitting religion against religion, thereby wasting taxpayer's money! People, I really find it hard to believe that we are wasting brain cells on this.
Bayou Vol | 9:28 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The ten commandments were not placed because of religious significance,
according to Pleasant Grove's atty. The monument was placed to honor the
pioneer heritage of the city. Summums don;t really have much to do with the
pioneer heritage of Pleasant Grove...and their monument is ugly...reason enough
to decline it.
Re: MIDutch, Disagree, Robert Oh | 10:24 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Here's some quotes for you from those who helped form this great CHRISTIAN
nation and constitution....
�We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We�ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity�to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.�
James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia
� The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.�
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
�All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery
and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.�
Noah Webster. History. p. 339
Dear Mr. MLDutch, it is a lie to say no other religions are wanted. Other religions are honored guests in this great land which gives all people freedom of religion. Atheism is a religion by definition. There really is no absence of religion. Why should we change our laws to be sponsored by your faith?
�We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We�ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity�to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.�
James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia
� The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.�
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
�All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery
and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.�
Noah Webster. History. p. 339
Dear Mr. MLDutch, it is a lie to say no other religions are wanted. Other religions are honored guests in this great land which gives all people freedom of religion. Atheism is a religion by definition. There really is no absence of religion. Why should we change our laws to be sponsored by your faith?
Public parks are for the PUBLIC | 10:31 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
You guys arguing that Summum should buy their own land are missing the point.
It's a public park - maintained by a government entity. The government may
not favor one religion (i.e. Christianity) over another (Summum) with its
allocation of public resources.
It's that simple.
It's that simple.
Re: Robert OH | 10:35 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I would have to agree Robert Oh is taking things out of context or possibly even
changing things. Here are some quotes...
John Quincy Adams
Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" �Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
John Adams
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
--October 11, 1798
John Quincy Adams
Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" �Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
John Adams
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
--October 11, 1798
Re: Robert Oh again | 10:38 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Still not convinced? Here's some more...
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."
[Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
� God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel� �Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
Nuff said.
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."
[Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
� God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel� �Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
Nuff said.
Waste of time | 10:39 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The Pleasant Grove local government must not have enough work to do if this is
the best use it can find for the taxpayers time and money.
Let's get government back to providing services and out of these silly disputes. Parks are for recreation. We can get the commandments at church.
Let's get government back to providing services and out of these silly disputes. Parks are for recreation. We can get the commandments at church.
Not a First Amendment Issue | 7:04 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
To all those who disagree with the notion that God and Christianity had no part
in the founding of this nation, no offense, but you're wrong. You're
argument denies the point and ignores the fact that the display of the 10
commandments does NOT endorse a religion. The 10 commandments have a historical
basis and they are on or in public buildings throughout the nation. They do not
deny the right of others to worship as they may. To allow the 7 aphorisms would
in fact open a flood gate. Where would one stop in the right for others to
display what they may in a public park? No one is even denying the right for
their monument to be displayed on private land. Again, I see no First Amendment
issue here. May I suggest that the Summums group is more into arguing than
freedom of speech?
Pleasant Grove? | 7:08 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Is Pleasant Grove the one wasting taxpayer's money or is it Summums? PG
didn't raise the dispute.
Supreme Court | 7:29 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
So, when the Supremes tell PG to take down their monument, what are they going
to do with their courthouse? It is covered with similar Christian documents and
teachings - "in stone".
Something to Ponder | 8:15 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Scott Matheson Courthouse. Why does he get a building named after him. I
don't get one named after me. It is not a private building. He was not the
biggest monetary donor. So why can't I have a building named after me? It
is my right! If anyone else has that right,then I must have that right. Get to
work. I want a building named after me.
Something to Ponder again. | 8:19 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Oh, you say Scott Matheson has done more for the State than I have. Oh,but that
is subjective. I think I have done more for this state then he. So get to work.
I want my building right next to his.
S&W.40 | 8:41 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
I would like to know which religion Pleasant Grove is supporting.
1st Amendment | 8:43 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Let's take a look at the actual words of the 1st Amendment regarding
religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . . ."
It's just beyond me how this could be a First Amendment argument. Congress has passed no law establishing any religion as the city religion of Pleasant Grove or prohibiting free exercise of any religion within Pleasant Grove. Congress is not even involved in this issue.
I don't have any particular problem with posting 7 Aphorisms in the park, so long as they're not X-rated or otherwise inappropriate. Let them worship how, where, or what they may. But how did park decorations the city park of little, itty-bitty Pleasant Grove become a matter of national or Constitutional import?
What's next, the teeter-totter? The monkey bars?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . . ."
It's just beyond me how this could be a First Amendment argument. Congress has passed no law establishing any religion as the city religion of Pleasant Grove or prohibiting free exercise of any religion within Pleasant Grove. Congress is not even involved in this issue.
I don't have any particular problem with posting 7 Aphorisms in the park, so long as they're not X-rated or otherwise inappropriate. Let them worship how, where, or what they may. But how did park decorations the city park of little, itty-bitty Pleasant Grove become a matter of national or Constitutional import?
What's next, the teeter-totter? The monkey bars?
To: Disagree | 8:47 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
We can write off those comments. Anybody who believes America never has been a
Christian Nation is spewing outright lies.
MAYHEM MIKE | 8:54 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Let's display Summum's 7 Aphorisms where they belong: at the SCIENCE
FICTION HALL OF FAME, in Seattle, Wa.
RE: Cites to the case history | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
This case is a Federal one and was not ever tried before the Utah Supreme Court,
but here are the cites to the case as it worked its way up...483 F.3d 1044...499
F.3d 1170...128 S.Ct. 1737.
Tiered approach??? | 9:56 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Why can't gov't view of property be a tiered approach - such that if
the city owns the property than it manages it based on the voice of reason from
the local citizens. If the citizens vote on or chose those local leaders to make
these decision than where has a violation occurred? In other words, why should
the supreme court deal with a case involving property that is not federally
owned? This should have gone no higher than the Utah Supreme Court (city
council, in my opinion).
The 10 Commandments | 11:42 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Should be on every corner in America
Why do you think this Counntry is going down the sewer?
Name calling is childish remarks
The best name I know we have a Country full of BIGGOTS
One being whom brought this to light!
How sick?
Why do you think this Counntry is going down the sewer?
Name calling is childish remarks
The best name I know we have a Country full of BIGGOTS
One being whom brought this to light!
How sick?
Here they are. | 11:53 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
They are Great! aren't they?
1. SUMMUM is MIND, thought; the universe is a mental creation.
2. As above, so below; as below, so above.
3. Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.
4. Everything is dual; everything has an opposing point; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes bond; all truths are but partial truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.
5. Everything flows out and in; everything has its season; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing expresses itself in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.
6. Every cause has its effect; every effect has its cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is just a name for Law not recognized; there are many fields of causation, but nothing escapes the Law of Destiny.
7. Gender is in everything; everything has its masculine and feminine principles; Gender manifests on all levels. {L.A. Times} Good Stuff hey!
1. SUMMUM is MIND, thought; the universe is a mental creation.
2. As above, so below; as below, so above.
3. Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates.
4. Everything is dual; everything has an opposing point; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes bond; all truths are but partial truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.
5. Everything flows out and in; everything has its season; all things rise and fall; the pendulum swing expresses itself in everything; the measure of the swing to the right is the measure of the swing to the left; rhythm compensates.
6. Every cause has its effect; every effect has its cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is just a name for Law not recognized; there are many fields of causation, but nothing escapes the Law of Destiny.
7. Gender is in everything; everything has its masculine and feminine principles; Gender manifests on all levels. {L.A. Times} Good Stuff hey!
Duchesne explanation | 12:48 p.m. Nov. 13, 2008
Duchesne City is also involved in this same lawsuit. The city also has a
Monument of the 10 Commandment in their city park. This same Summums group tried
to get their Aphorimisms Monument put there as well. Here is the story. A Mr.
Coles, a longtime business owner and Duchesne City resident passed away. Being
such a prominent member of the community, Duchesne City offered to erect a
monument in his memory. His family chose to have the 10 commandments erected in
the City Park. Summums comes along 30 years later and notices the monument. They
approach the city council and want to have their Aphorimisms erected. The city
councils turns them down. They file a lawsuit. The city sells a small piece of
the park to Mr. Coles Family to avoid the lawsuit. However, they are still
involved in the lawsuit. Personally, I believe the 10 commandments ought to
stay. If the aphormisms are allowed to be put there, the local high schools kids
will probably pull in down with their pickups. And Summums won't even know
until they want another lawsuit, because none of them live in Duchesne. What a
court system.
Judges | 1:28 p.m. Nov. 13, 2008
If our Judges don't have the sense to throw this scam out. Why do we have
them. Judgement should be a qualification to be a Judge.
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Tthe Ten Commandments monument in Pleasant Grove's Pioneer Park was a gift to the city from the Fraternal Order of Eagles in 1971.
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