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Utah Jewish leader wants to keep talks going about LDS baptisms
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bernando e | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Both sides made an agreement. I imagine there is more to this than meets the
eye. I would imagine that LDS church will do what it can to hold up this
agreement. And if its leaders made this decision, enough said. Less work to do,
eh.
If I have a ... | 9:08 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
beloved jewish ancestor, why should I not be allowed to submit their name for
proxy baptism? Some stranger knows better because he happens to be jewish?
Comments continue below
sandlapper | 9:28 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Just for the record, Latter-day Saints believe that those for whom the ordinance
is performed have the choice of whether or not to accept it. They do not
believe that just because it is done it makes whoever is was performed for
"Mormon". I've never heard a mormon say that these people are
changed in some way from who they fundamentally were. I have had some tell me
they feel on a personal level that some ancestor accepted the offer, which
brings them some comfort, but changes nothing for me. The only change is that
the church just make a note on a list somewhere that says some proxy work was
done for that person. Anythig remaining is now between that person and whatever
God is sorting it all out. They just want to make sure everyone is covered,
which--if they are right--is a very nice thought. And if they are wrong, nothing
has changed for anyone. No Jew for whom work has been done is listed on church
archives as now being a member of the LDS church, nor has their status as a Jew
changed in any way--even from the Mormon point of view.
ME | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Why is it that the Jews get all the attention for civilian deaths during World
War II? Looking at actual history instead of what is being taught at our
schools is a real mind opener. Jews killed during the war was 5.7 million.
Soviet Union civ killed 11.4 million. Chinese civ killed 16.2 million. I am not
trying to diminish what happend during world war II. I am just trying to point
out that a lot of civ died in this war, and seems as though history has forgoten
them. All 41.7 million of them. Here is another tidbit left out of our history
books, the US main land was bombed by the Japanize, and the some of the bombs
are still out here in the west unexpoded.
Dude | 10:18 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
To all who said things like "Mormons are not acting like Christians" -
the Church teaches how to be Christlike, but face it, some of them are and some
aren't (or maybe, better said, some are trying harder than others). Just
like everywhere else. A lot are not in your face ramming their religion down
your throat, trying to walk with haughty pride, or condemning you for your
beliefs, but some are. They are not indicative of the entire group nor what the
group represents. Just like among every other group, there are some that make
the rest look bad, and they are typically the loudest ones.
Check the facts, please | 10:23 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
For the record, being a "Jew" is not a religious affiliation only. It
is a heritage and culture.
The Jews in World War II were not slaughtered because of their religious beliefs, they were slaughtered because of their ancestry. When they were marked as Jewish, their heritage was checked, and if your blood were greater than some percentage Jewish, you were marked as a Jew. Religious affiliation was even not part of the equation.
That doesn't make what happened any less horrific, but don't make religion the issue when it's not.
The Jews in World War II were not slaughtered because of their religious beliefs, they were slaughtered because of their ancestry. When they were marked as Jewish, their heritage was checked, and if your blood were greater than some percentage Jewish, you were marked as a Jew. Religious affiliation was even not part of the equation.
That doesn't make what happened any less horrific, but don't make religion the issue when it's not.
Jumipin' jack | 10:25 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The LDS church needs to form an opt in policy for their spurious baptisms. What
happened to an individuals freedom FROM a religion if that is their choice?
The LDS church shows extraordinary disrespect in this practice.
The LDS church shows extraordinary disrespect in this practice.
ForME | 10:27 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
for Me@9:31
The casualties of war are very different from a Government sponsored program to annihilate an entire race of people based strictly on their race. This is called genocide. The death of civilians is tragic beyond comprehension in all wars. But the Jewish people were not victims of war. They were murdered at the hands of racists who were directed by a government. Once a country was conquered, the first thing the Nazi's did was round up all Jews and transport them to death camps JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWISH, NOT BECAUSE ENEMY BOMBS KILLED THEM ! "why is it the Jews get all the attention?" How do you live with yourself?
The casualties of war are very different from a Government sponsored program to annihilate an entire race of people based strictly on their race. This is called genocide. The death of civilians is tragic beyond comprehension in all wars. But the Jewish people were not victims of war. They were murdered at the hands of racists who were directed by a government. Once a country was conquered, the first thing the Nazi's did was round up all Jews and transport them to death camps JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWISH, NOT BECAUSE ENEMY BOMBS KILLED THEM ! "why is it the Jews get all the attention?" How do you live with yourself?
Tom Wall Hemet, CA | 10:34 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I am pleased that our Latter Day Saint leaders have respect for the rights of
the Jewish religion and its people. I have a high opinion of Jewish people and
salute their entitlement to choose what they believe and how they worship. The
11th article of faith declares: �We claim the privilege of
worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and
allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
There are many good people in the Jewish religion and we have much in common
with them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often works with the
Jewish faith on humanitarian projects and other efforts to improve the common
good. I do not want to harm our positive relationship with our Jewish Brothers
and Sister and neither do the Brethren.
Jess | 10:45 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I don't care if a Jew, Muslim, Catholic or person in any other religion
baptised or performed any other religious ordinance or ritual in behalf of my
deceased Mormon parents. What's the big deal? They're on the other
side now and have to work out their own relationship with God. If someone
performs a ritual in their behalf out of love or concern for them, so what. It
is at least showing respect for them. Some people try awfully hard to find a
reason to be offended.
Jack | 10:56 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Lets put it this way...the Jews community has no business if I want to put in my
Jews Holocaust relatives names in for Mormon proxy baptism...as a surviving
relative, I have to look after the salvation of their souls.
some stuff to consider... | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
For everyone debating why a small group of people has the say for a whole
community of people... Duh they could say the same about many religous
organizations (did you elect the prophet? No but you sustained him. Whose to say
it's not something similar here)or government offices.
Everyone is saying "if they don't believe it to be true then what does it matter anyways". It's disrespectful. It's disrespectful in the sense that it's like saying any ordinances or religous rituals they performed or took upon themselves don't count. It's like saying they're not good enough because they're not the mormon ones. You might think your religon is true but guess what lots of people think their religon is true that's why they CHOOSE to practice it. Hypothetically if someone that's baptized Catholic died in a plane crash or something and gets posthumously baptized isn't that like saying, "Well your Catholic baptisim doesn't matter because it's not true because it wasn't done the Mormon way". How is that not disrespectful?
Everyone is saying "if they don't believe it to be true then what does it matter anyways". It's disrespectful. It's disrespectful in the sense that it's like saying any ordinances or religous rituals they performed or took upon themselves don't count. It's like saying they're not good enough because they're not the mormon ones. You might think your religon is true but guess what lots of people think their religon is true that's why they CHOOSE to practice it. Hypothetically if someone that's baptized Catholic died in a plane crash or something and gets posthumously baptized isn't that like saying, "Well your Catholic baptisim doesn't matter because it's not true because it wasn't done the Mormon way". How is that not disrespectful?
to Tevye: | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Hahaha. That is hilarious! Thanks for making my day.
ForDude | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Your comment is duly noted. I, like many others, have drawn conclusions about
ALL LDS from postings read here. You are absolutely right and I acknowledge your
statement. I think we should sit all sit down and talk calmly over a cup of
coffee (or the beverage of choice.) :) Thank you for humbling me against my
emotional response. We all have enough good in each of our Faiths to take
something away from each other. Truce !
Fred Barrett | 11:18 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I would ask those who are against this. If The Church of JESUS CHRIST of
Latter-day Saints was in fact a restoration of the Jewish Religion as it was
when Moses was first called from the burning bush before they were given the law
of carnal commandments and they are concerned for those victims of the murder of
so many innocents in Germany during WWII is it poassible that they are robbing
their people of the inheritances the Lord has in store for them. Just a thought.
Fred
SLC gal | 11:27 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Not to be flip, but I can see someone's Jewish grandmother smacking someone
upside the head when they get to the other side for not having their work done,
and asking incessantly what is the matter with them...
That being said, I can see where the objection would be to pulling out random names off the lists, but I think family members should be allowed, Holocost, or not.
That being said, I can see where the objection would be to pulling out random names off the lists, but I think family members should be allowed, Holocost, or not.
UNKNOWN | 11:39 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
WHAT ARE WE TO LEARN FROM THIS? HOW CAN WE SERVE THE LORD IN THIS MATTER
WITHOUT HANDING OVER PEARLS TO THEM THAT WILL NOT WARE THEM?
Carol | 11:52 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
We have so many other sons and daughters to do ordinances. Lets concentrate on
them and after our Messiah comes we can get those we missed during the
millennium of Christ's reign on the earth.
TFox | 11:57 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
According to statistics, in 1995, when the original agreement was entered into,
the Church's membership was 9.3 million. In 2007, that number had increased
to 12.8 million, millions of whom were most likely not aware of the proscription
on submitting Holocaust victim's names. The average member, even at the
time of the agreement, may not have been aware of it.
That's why the church's political neutrality letter is read each election cycle- to inform the newcomers, as well as remind the oldtimers.
Since the agreement is a policy, not a doctrine, it isn't dwelt upon in classes, so the newcomers have little chance of finding out unless the Family History Consultant remembers to tell them.
TFox
That's why the church's political neutrality letter is read each election cycle- to inform the newcomers, as well as remind the oldtimers.
Since the agreement is a policy, not a doctrine, it isn't dwelt upon in classes, so the newcomers have little chance of finding out unless the Family History Consultant remembers to tell them.
TFox
Agency | 12:28 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The Jewish or pro Jewish people on here posting comments suggesting the baptisms
are changing the religion of the dead are mistaken. The dead still have their
agency to choose if they want to accept the baptism or not.
Respect vs. Disrespect | 1:18 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The LDS church is not the only organization which performs posthumous
activities. For example: The US government made Raoul Wallenberg an honorary
Citizen of the United States in 1981. They were followed by Canada in 1985 and
Israel in 1986.
Now as a Swede, I have two options:
1. I can be "gravely offended" by these obvious attempts to claim this individual. (What if future historians will think that he was an American, Canadian or Israeli instead of a Swede?)
2. I can accept that the actions in no way are intended to denigrate or replace the "Swedishness" of the individual in question, but a way of showing respect.
We choose whether to be offended or not.
If actions are taken that are respectful to the departed individuals, especially when performed by the individuals relatives/descendants; what reason do we have to be offended?
This is especially true when the actions performed, according to us, have no bearing on the eternal welfare of individual for which they are done.
Now as a Swede, I have two options:
1. I can be "gravely offended" by these obvious attempts to claim this individual. (What if future historians will think that he was an American, Canadian or Israeli instead of a Swede?)
2. I can accept that the actions in no way are intended to denigrate or replace the "Swedishness" of the individual in question, but a way of showing respect.
We choose whether to be offended or not.
If actions are taken that are respectful to the departed individuals, especially when performed by the individuals relatives/descendants; what reason do we have to be offended?
This is especially true when the actions performed, according to us, have no bearing on the eternal welfare of individual for which they are done.
TB | 2:21 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I will gladly give my name to anyone of any faith or religion to do whatever it
takes to get me to heaven by their standards or requirements.. I would love to
have all my bases covered!
What's the big deal? Mormons love their Jewish ancestors and want to provide baptism so they can choose. Jews will still be Jews even after their proxy baptism.
By the way, all of Israel's tribes were the "chosen people" not just the tribe of Judah.
What's the big deal? Mormons love their Jewish ancestors and want to provide baptism so they can choose. Jews will still be Jews even after their proxy baptism.
By the way, all of Israel's tribes were the "chosen people" not just the tribe of Judah.
Kathi | 2:40 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Heavenly Father is a loving father. He will take care of these people who
suffered because of their faith. We should stop arguing ,and show love and
respect. Stop the Baptisims, No ifs ands or buts. Our Father in Heaven will show
the way for these people.
mom | 3:01 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Only in Utah. I'm LDS, but what's this stink about? Are we so
narcissistic that we think the rest of the world even knows we're here?
Which page of the NY Times is this flap being reported on?
Seems like the LDS reps would have clearly explained the benign nature of this work. I like to think they would have listened carefully and empathetically to every concern and making truly good faith efforts to cooperate.
In reality either or both sides may be brick walls. Having spoken at a brick wall myself and having listened to a brick wall, experience teaches that no one hears what they don't want to hear or sees good will if they don't want to see it.
This level of hostility over a chronic sore spot actually suggests to me a reaction to some other, more current issue.
If anyone out there knows, why do they restrict their concerns for German-killed Jews when Stalin was monstrous as well?
People seeking contention will find it. Will those who seek peace? Peacemakers seem fewer of all religions and non-religions.
Kudos to William Tumpowsky!
Seems like the LDS reps would have clearly explained the benign nature of this work. I like to think they would have listened carefully and empathetically to every concern and making truly good faith efforts to cooperate.
In reality either or both sides may be brick walls. Having spoken at a brick wall myself and having listened to a brick wall, experience teaches that no one hears what they don't want to hear or sees good will if they don't want to see it.
This level of hostility over a chronic sore spot actually suggests to me a reaction to some other, more current issue.
If anyone out there knows, why do they restrict their concerns for German-killed Jews when Stalin was monstrous as well?
People seeking contention will find it. Will those who seek peace? Peacemakers seem fewer of all religions and non-religions.
Kudos to William Tumpowsky!
Derek | 3:17 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
As a non-mormon, I find it very disturbing how the church has the power to
'suck me in' after I'm dead. There's no consent.
I'm a big fan of most religions, because usually they serve to make their followers better people. Mormonism usually serves this purpose as well. However, I have no intention of becoming Mormon, living or dead, and I can completely understand why non-mormon relatives of the deceased are disturbed by post-houmous baptism.
I'm a big fan of most religions, because usually they serve to make their followers better people. Mormonism usually serves this purpose as well. However, I have no intention of becoming Mormon, living or dead, and I can completely understand why non-mormon relatives of the deceased are disturbed by post-houmous baptism.
J L | 3:35 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
They fail to mention in any of this press how grateful and anxious they were for
us to offer our family history services FREE of charge to them.
Barbara Larson | 3:39 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
It is very sad that this man Tompowsky does not have the knowledge to know the
real meaning of the baptisms. These people haveing work done for them have the
free agency to accept this or to turn it down. What a great privilege it is to
have this work done for them. The Holocaust was a terrible thing and my heart
goes out to all of them. This is done in no way to offend any one. It is a
gesture of love, kindness and a very humble experience and done only for their
progression if these people choose to accept this. Sincerely, Barbara Larson
Wayne | 3:48 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Members of the church know about this stuff and those that intentionally violate
this should lose their temple recommends. The Family History Department
aren't the sharpest tools in the shed and to expect them to be able to
catch this stuff and prevent it from happening is unreasonable.
tigerlily | 3:51 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
It doesn't desecrate the Temple: the temple recommends can not be faked
tigerlily | 3:57 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
re the truth: if the jewish people have mormon ancestors, the work can be done.
tigerlily | 4:00 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
morgan: i am a mormon and if i had jewish relatives you can bet that they would
be baptized a mormon. the first ammendment has nothing to do with it.
tigerlily | 4:04 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Holy moly: same thing happened to the early saints
tigerlily | 4:13 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
mom of three: we are allgods children and he has provided a way for all of us to
return to him.
wayne | 5:12 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
If the Jews don't believe in our doctrine and ordinances, then why should
they care if we waste our time---it can't hoit.
RB | 5:54 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
To me the Jewish people have been victims of religious intolerance for
centuries. But to me, the way some of them are going after Mormons is also
religious intolerance. Seems to me the Mormons are trying to be sensitive to
the Jewish community and fix the "problem". Sheesh, lighten up a
little folks.
Dave | 8:38 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Nov 9, 2008 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Night of the Broken Glass.
This is also the date of breaking of the Layton Utah, LDS chapels glass doors and windows. It reminded me of the beginning of the Holocaust, the Night of the Broken Glass, 70 years to the day. The hatred of the Nazi attacking and breaking windows of Jewish religious places of worship is not much different than the hatered express now. Against the LDS.
This is also the date of breaking of the Layton Utah, LDS chapels glass doors and windows. It reminded me of the beginning of the Holocaust, the Night of the Broken Glass, 70 years to the day. The hatred of the Nazi attacking and breaking windows of Jewish religious places of worship is not much different than the hatered express now. Against the LDS.
Sir Lightgood | 8:51 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
If you don't believe that baptisms for the dead are valid why would you
worry about what someone who does?
Consider this; You believe there is merit to the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints or it is a complete waste of time. Ergo it does not matter what the members do.
The belief that you have to interfere with something you don't believe in is simply a power play. You want to exercise power over the "Mormons".
You are so narrow minded and mean, Michael. Just trying to make something of yourself when you know that you are so powerless and wrong.
Consider this; You believe there is merit to the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints or it is a complete waste of time. Ergo it does not matter what the members do.
The belief that you have to interfere with something you don't believe in is simply a power play. You want to exercise power over the "Mormons".
You are so narrow minded and mean, Michael. Just trying to make something of yourself when you know that you are so powerless and wrong.
John Pack Lambert | 8:57 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
The 7:22 commentator is quite confused. Initially when they did baptisms for
the dead they did not hold to baptizing males in behalf of male deceseaed and
the opposite. They also did not keep records of some of the earliest ordinances
done.
Anyone who has ancestors who were church members at that time and has dealt with new family search knows that the sealings were a total and complete confusion.
The fact that new family search incorporated these very confusing sealings has lead to people disputing and merging in ways that have created an even bigger mess.
Anyone who has ancestors who were church members at that time and has dealt with new family search knows that the sealings were a total and complete confusion.
The fact that new family search incorporated these very confusing sealings has lead to people disputing and merging in ways that have created an even bigger mess.
Sam | 9:08 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I BANG my head on the wall, people say "if you believe it hs no merit, then
why do you care." Wow are you people so self absorbed that you don't
get it! I think this is a very sad sad comentary on the LDS church culture.
for Dave@ 8:38 | 9:19 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
How dare you compare Das Kristallnacht to probrably teenage vandalism of LDS
Ward Chapels? 91 Jews were murdered that night. One thousand Synagogues were
burned. Six thousand Jewish businesses were burned or destroyed. Thousands of
Jews were rounded up that night and thrown into concentration camps. The
crematoriums would soon follow. Please do not trivialize what happened that
awful night to what happened to the Ward Houses, sad though that is.
Dallin Jensen | 9:29 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Would Christ want us to be arguing and fighting over religion? "Inasmuch as
ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto
me." The Mormons AND Jews could be considered the least of these! Please,
put out non-provoking comments in a peaceful manner.
Halwrite | 10:11 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
As a Jew with close and dear ties to members of the Mormon Church, I have no
doubt of the Church�s sincerity in its efforts to remove
names of posthumously baptized Holocaust victims from its data base, nor do I
doubt its efforts to avoid new vicarious baptisms of Holocaust victims.
There is, however, very sad tone deafness to the explanations given for those baptisms that have taken place or those that some would like to see continue to take place. Jews have lived a lifetime declining to be baptized by Christians and multitudes have, throughout time, died rather than be baptized at the point of a sword. Jews with even a rudimentary sense of history know the price their forbears have paid to be true to their faith.
What may be a sacred rite to Mormons with respect to posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims is, nonetheless, a sacrilege to many Jews who lost loved ones in the Nazi horror. Why in the world is that so hard to understand, and why would anyone, no matter how well intentioned, want to tread on such sorrowful and painful ground. Hal Gershowitz, author: "Remember This Dream"
There is, however, very sad tone deafness to the explanations given for those baptisms that have taken place or those that some would like to see continue to take place. Jews have lived a lifetime declining to be baptized by Christians and multitudes have, throughout time, died rather than be baptized at the point of a sword. Jews with even a rudimentary sense of history know the price their forbears have paid to be true to their faith.
What may be a sacred rite to Mormons with respect to posthumous baptism of Holocaust victims is, nonetheless, a sacrilege to many Jews who lost loved ones in the Nazi horror. Why in the world is that so hard to understand, and why would anyone, no matter how well intentioned, want to tread on such sorrowful and painful ground. Hal Gershowitz, author: "Remember This Dream"
Religions assume they own people | 10:21 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I don't understand why the LDS church or the Jews of today feel that anyone
has the right to speak for the Jews of the holocaust.
Perhaps the relatives of the holocaust may have this right, but even this is questionable.
Certainly Jews of today should not presume to have claim to speak for other Jews with whom they are strangers and to whom they have no family connection.
Religions of the middle east all seem to share this flawed assumption that the religion somehow owns the person.
Strict moslems will kill someone who converts from being a moslem to an other religion, even if the person was only born into being a moslem.
This is an old, outdated, and mistaken mindset. People own themself, their religion does not own them. The fact that some peoples/religions traditions may deny this truth, does not change the fact that it is a truth.
Perhaps the relatives of the holocaust may have this right, but even this is questionable.
Certainly Jews of today should not presume to have claim to speak for other Jews with whom they are strangers and to whom they have no family connection.
Religions of the middle east all seem to share this flawed assumption that the religion somehow owns the person.
Strict moslems will kill someone who converts from being a moslem to an other religion, even if the person was only born into being a moslem.
This is an old, outdated, and mistaken mindset. People own themself, their religion does not own them. The fact that some peoples/religions traditions may deny this truth, does not change the fact that it is a truth.
katie | 11:33 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
"Asking to respect the dead is not playing victim. Whatever sacred
intentions for the dead, it's not the place of the LDS people to push their
religon on everyone...the jewish people that died (some of them because they
wouldn't renounce their beliefs and convert to Christianity) would probably
find it extremely disrespectful that their choice to be Jewish even if it meant
death weren't respected. Your rights don't trump theirs and vice
versa."
haha...what? baptizing the dead is not forcing anything on anyone. It's merely giving them the choice. If they so choose to not accept the gospel the way the LDS believe it to be, then that is their choice. we are not forcing baptism on anyone.
If the jews were baptizing our dead members I would see nothing wrong with that, mainly just because I don't believe they have that sacred power, and because if their church believed they were just giving our members the choice, then that is their right.
If the jews don't believe in our church and its ordinances, then I don't see why they should have a problem with us baptizing their dead. It's not like we're affecting them... (in their eyes)
haha...what? baptizing the dead is not forcing anything on anyone. It's merely giving them the choice. If they so choose to not accept the gospel the way the LDS believe it to be, then that is their choice. we are not forcing baptism on anyone.
If the jews were baptizing our dead members I would see nothing wrong with that, mainly just because I don't believe they have that sacred power, and because if their church believed they were just giving our members the choice, then that is their right.
If the jews don't believe in our church and its ordinances, then I don't see why they should have a problem with us baptizing their dead. It's not like we're affecting them... (in their eyes)
Tom Wall Hemet, CA | 1:02 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
The LDS Church made an agreement with Jewish Leaders not to perform temple
ordinances for Jewish holocaust victims. A letter from the governing First
Presidency of the LDS Church was read in Sunday meetings worldwide in June 1995,
urging Church members to submit for temple ordinances the names of their own
ancestors, and not the names of deceased Jewish holocaust victims. The Church
intends to keep their word. With so many names being submitted for temple work
it is very difficult to identify Jewish holocaust victims before being submitted
for temple work. The church is doing its best to prevent this from happening...
For those who do not like what are leaders are doing please speak to them but do
not criticize the Jewish people when the church makes a mistake and performs
ordinances for Jewish holocaust victims when we said we would not... I have
confidence that are leaders know better than we do in this matter so let them
handle this and follow their lead.
Anonymous | 10:13 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
The next abomination that needs to be stopped is Dr. Jeffrey Chadwick and Dr.
Victor L. Ludlow's charging people money to attend Jewish Passover services
where they distort everything about the Seder! This is a gross violation of good
judgment and a horrid display of disrespect for the religion of others!
Anonymous | 1:39 p.m. Nov. 13, 2008
After 15 years one would thing the Mormon church would get it right and respect
the wishes of the Jewish community. With new technology what seem to be problem?
Doesn't it say somewhere good people who died without being a mormon;
missionnaries will go and preach to them (Terrestria Kingdom), if they accept,
they can go to the next level. If the doctrine is true, so what is the rush? The
Jews will have a second chance anyway; leave it to the Jews to accept or reject
on their own.
Coleman | 4:52 p.m. Nov. 13, 2008
May I suggest that all players, both LDS and Jew, consider a gentle,
considerate approach: No Holocaust victims' temple work should be done
unless by a direct relative who is now LDS. None. None at all. I offer that as
the LDS Church's official stand to consider. That should satisfy
Jews' understandable concerns in a kind and considerate way. What about
LDS fervent commitments to fulfill one of the three-fold missions of the Church?
Well, may I humbly suggest to the Brethren that there is time later to do such
baptisms, maybe even a thousand years. During the Millennium, such
sensitivities will most assuredly be assuaged by new conditions. Meanwhile, in
the name of drawing two world-wide communities who should call each other family
closer in the present world, the LDS community could leave the reinstitution of
such baptisms up to God's revelation to his prophets. Such a pragmatic,
yet inherently spiritual, approach would alleviate continued rancor where there
should be none. Both communities have enough enemies. They do not need to
fight over this. Peace anywhere, but especially in the House of Israel, is
precious.
to Katie | 7:33 p.m. Nov. 13, 2008
I think you kind of missed the point here. If they chose death over Christianity
isn't that a pretty strong statement? How is it not disrespectful to
perform a Christian ritual on someone that chose death over Christianity.
You're basically saying "despite what you believed and wanted I'm
going to do what I want because my belief system is better then yours". If
someone is willing to die for a cause it should be respected not exploited by
the other side.
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Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
I were a dead Mormon.
I wouldn't have to home teach
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum. . .
I don't have to read the BofM,
Yidle-diddle-baptised-dead Mormon.