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Utah Jewish leader wants to keep talks going about LDS baptisms
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Doug S | 3:17 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
What does Michel hope to accomplish by cutting off dialogue? He can't sue
the LDS Church into conformance--if he stops talking, he has lost.
davidutefan | 3:37 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The only thing I don't understand is, Why does it matter if you don't
believe in it anyway?
It doesn't desecrate the Temple | 3:37 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
"The lives and souls of six million innocent people are deeply sacred to
us,...Everything was stolen from them � their life and
their future...They died because they were Jewish,...and for that reason their
memories need to be respected."
Many people die for many different reasons but that doesn't mean that they deserve any more respect than others who died for other reasons. Some died because they were black, others because they were white, and others simply because they were female. It's an act of discrimination to give more respect to Jewish victims of the holocaust than the many others who died because of their political, religious, or moral beliefs. Or worst because of the color of their skin or their gender.
"He likens the baptisms to the violation Mormons would feel if someone broke into an LDS temple."
Mormons recognize the sacredness of the Temple but I suspect that most of us would not be more outraged at the violation of our private property than its religious significance since the presence of non-Mormons in the Temple doesn't desecrate the Temple anymore than the unworthy entering the House of the Lord desecrates it. Fake recommends get people in all the time.
Many people die for many different reasons but that doesn't mean that they deserve any more respect than others who died for other reasons. Some died because they were black, others because they were white, and others simply because they were female. It's an act of discrimination to give more respect to Jewish victims of the holocaust than the many others who died because of their political, religious, or moral beliefs. Or worst because of the color of their skin or their gender.
"He likens the baptisms to the violation Mormons would feel if someone broke into an LDS temple."
Mormons recognize the sacredness of the Temple but I suspect that most of us would not be more outraged at the violation of our private property than its religious significance since the presence of non-Mormons in the Temple doesn't desecrate the Temple anymore than the unworthy entering the House of the Lord desecrates it. Fake recommends get people in all the time.
Comments continue below
Tom Kimpton | 3:42 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
As far as I can see, either the Mormons are deluded and have no
power to coerce God to change the eternal destination of anyone
who has passed on, or, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints have exactly what they claim, power granted by the
Almighty to offer a blessing of inestimable value to those who
have passed on.
Either way I don't think your metaphor works.
Tom Kimpton.
power to coerce God to change the eternal destination of anyone
who has passed on, or, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints have exactly what they claim, power granted by the
Almighty to offer a blessing of inestimable value to those who
have passed on.
Either way I don't think your metaphor works.
Tom Kimpton.
The truth | 3:45 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Perhaps, the Jews ought to stop playing victim,
and realize other religions have legitimate and sacred intentions and purposes which they believe are necessary for the salvation of the dead.
Do they believe God would forget the dead, and not have mercy on those who never had the opportunity in this life to hear and accept the gospel?
and realize other religions have legitimate and sacred intentions and purposes which they believe are necessary for the salvation of the dead.
Do they believe God would forget the dead, and not have mercy on those who never had the opportunity in this life to hear and accept the gospel?
What's the point | 3:55 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
of continued talks when the Church will do whatever it wants anyway?
David | 3:57 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
It is important because it gives validity to Holocaust deniers. You enter a
Jewish name into your database as Mormon and you alter history especially if you
add 100 years into the future.
How would you have felt if I donated money to fight proposition 8 and wrote the donations were from Joseph Smith, Jr., Brigham Young, Emma Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley?
How would you have felt if I donated money to fight proposition 8 and wrote the donations were from Joseph Smith, Jr., Brigham Young, Emma Smith, Gordon B. Hinckley?
It's their time to show respect | 4:00 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
davidutefan,
"The only thing I don't understand is, Why does it matter if you don't believe in it anyway?"
It doesn't. There are many things I, as a Mormon, don't believe but I don't go out of my way to get those who I disagree with to stop.
I don't agree with Jews sects who believe that it's wrong to speak the name of God and I don't intend to stop using his name. I'm not going to write God as "G-d" just to please the Jewish population. I don't wish to offend them by my choice but I do not accept that they can dictate to me what my beliefs should be or how I choose to practice my religion.
This is no different. The Church has done everything it can to respect the beliefs of this organization and to honor their wishes but the Church is doing its due diligence.
The Church, itself, doesn't perform these ordinances and when it finds the names of victims of the Jewish holocaust that were submitted by individual members it removes the names. This is all the respect that this group should be shown.
No more and no less.
"The only thing I don't understand is, Why does it matter if you don't believe in it anyway?"
It doesn't. There are many things I, as a Mormon, don't believe but I don't go out of my way to get those who I disagree with to stop.
I don't agree with Jews sects who believe that it's wrong to speak the name of God and I don't intend to stop using his name. I'm not going to write God as "G-d" just to please the Jewish population. I don't wish to offend them by my choice but I do not accept that they can dictate to me what my beliefs should be or how I choose to practice my religion.
This is no different. The Church has done everything it can to respect the beliefs of this organization and to honor their wishes but the Church is doing its due diligence.
The Church, itself, doesn't perform these ordinances and when it finds the names of victims of the Jewish holocaust that were submitted by individual members it removes the names. This is all the respect that this group should be shown.
No more and no less.
William Tumpowsky is awesome | 4:05 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I am writing to acknowlege that William Tumpowsky is a great man.
He is right.
More can be solved through positive dialogue, than through lines in the sand, as he has stated.
Good job in seeing the value in postitive relationships.
William Tumpowsky is a great Utahn, a great man, and an asset to the state.
His words are powerful, and implications very postitive.
He is right.
More can be solved through positive dialogue, than through lines in the sand, as he has stated.
Good job in seeing the value in postitive relationships.
William Tumpowsky is a great Utahn, a great man, and an asset to the state.
His words are powerful, and implications very postitive.
Sensitivity | 4:06 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
If the LDS Church leaders have no problem avoiding baptisms on behalf of
holocaust victims, I don't see how church members can have any objections
either. Let's be good neighbors to a people whose history of mistreatment
and suffering stretches back much farther than ours.
Continue..... | 4:07 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Why does the article end there? Does it seem like something is missing to
anyone else? Why does he liken it to someone breaking into an LDS Temple?
Respect goes both ways | 4:07 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Doug S,
"What does Michel hope to accomplish by cutting off dialogue? He can't sue the LDS Church into conformance--if he stops talking, he has lost."
He's throwing a temper tantrum because he wants the Church to cave in to his unreasonable demands. The Church is doing what it should do which is:
1) don't, as an organization, perform Temple work for the victims of the Holocaust; and,
2) actively search for names of holocaust victims which were inappropriately submitted by members of the Church and remove the names.
If he expects the Church to do more he's being unreasonable and the Church should refuse to cave into these demands. If he refuses to show the Church the respect that we are due then that is his problem and not ours.
We have done everything, within reason, to respect the beliefs of this organization but we will not let anyone dictate to us what our beliefs should be or how we choose to practice our religion.
It's important to remember that victims of the holocaust are not alone and that many others, including Mormons, have endure persecution and have been killed for their beliefs and who they are.
"What does Michel hope to accomplish by cutting off dialogue? He can't sue the LDS Church into conformance--if he stops talking, he has lost."
He's throwing a temper tantrum because he wants the Church to cave in to his unreasonable demands. The Church is doing what it should do which is:
1) don't, as an organization, perform Temple work for the victims of the Holocaust; and,
2) actively search for names of holocaust victims which were inappropriately submitted by members of the Church and remove the names.
If he expects the Church to do more he's being unreasonable and the Church should refuse to cave into these demands. If he refuses to show the Church the respect that we are due then that is his problem and not ours.
We have done everything, within reason, to respect the beliefs of this organization but we will not let anyone dictate to us what our beliefs should be or how we choose to practice our religion.
It's important to remember that victims of the holocaust are not alone and that many others, including Mormons, have endure persecution and have been killed for their beliefs and who they are.
Z | 4:08 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Okay, this guy had my attention until he compared Baptisms for the Dead to
breaking into an LDS temple. Come on! Let's at least try to be somewhat
precise in our analogies. Comparing a process that takes a name said in a prayer
you will never hear, by a guy you'll never meet, in a place you'll
never be of a person who is long since deceased is NOT comparable to someone
breaking into private property.
I want to understand where the Jewish community is coming from on this and I want to be emphathetic, but over-the-top statements like this one, designed to incite emotion, do little to help the situation.
I think it's undue sensitivity. This guy says otherwise. I will believe him and I think the church is doing the right thing to try to accommodate him. But let's not overstate the case in order to dramatize the situation and inflame emotion.
I want to understand where the Jewish community is coming from on this and I want to be emphathetic, but over-the-top statements like this one, designed to incite emotion, do little to help the situation.
I think it's undue sensitivity. This guy says otherwise. I will believe him and I think the church is doing the right thing to try to accommodate him. But let's not overstate the case in order to dramatize the situation and inflame emotion.
sanfranman | 4:13 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
i don't even want to comment on this article. it seems so pointless. It is
obvious that the church has gone to great lengths to accomodate the wishes of
this jewish organization.
re the truth | 4:13 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Asking to respect the dead is not playing victim. Whatever sacred intentions for
the dead, it's not the place of the LDS people to push their religon on
everyone. I realize the LDS want their religous rights respected, that being
said the jewish people that died (some of them because they wouldn't
renounce their beliefs and convert to Christianity) would probably find it
extremely disrespectful that their choice to be Jewish even if it meant death
weren't respected. Your rights don't trump theirs and vice versa. Have
some respect. Yet another case of the mormons thinking they're the holiest
people on earth. Well guess what you're not. Ever heard of Mountain meadows
massacre? You're not the only persecuted people out there...
morgan | 4:14 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
look at it from their perspective- your father died for his beliefs, then
somebody comes along and declares him to be a different religion, with no input
from you, because they're being "helpful"?
How angry would you Mormons be if they posthumously baptized Brigham Young or Joseph Smith as a Jew? Just because *you* think you're right doesn't give you the right to force your beliefs on the rest of us, alive or dead. It's called the First Amendment, and your entire church owes its existence to it, so maybe you should give it a bit more respect.
How angry would you Mormons be if they posthumously baptized Brigham Young or Joseph Smith as a Jew? Just because *you* think you're right doesn't give you the right to force your beliefs on the rest of us, alive or dead. It's called the First Amendment, and your entire church owes its existence to it, so maybe you should give it a bit more respect.
Blessings | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I think this is foolishness on the part of the Jewish people that want to stop
the baptisms. None of us have the exact knowledge of salvation but all
religions have their own beliefs about it, and what it takes to get salvation in
the here after. If someone offered me a blessing I would be glad to take it. I
think the living Jewish people should be glad that the Mormons care enough to
bestow blessing on their dead
John Pack Lambert | 4:19 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I still am waiting for the various Jewish spokesmen to admit they are ok with
Latter-day Saints doing temple work for their own ancestors. It often seems
that they want to ban all temple work done for Jews.
They do not understand how hurtful it is to people who have Jewish ancestors to be specially picked out for particular monitoring of their activity.
They do not understand how hurtful it is to people who have Jewish ancestors to be specially picked out for particular monitoring of their activity.
Let's show each other respect | 4:23 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The truth,
"Perhaps, the Jews ought to stop playing victim,"
It would be easy for almost any group of people to play the victim since most, if not all groups, have suffered persecution, and died for their beliefs.
Let's not forget the Inquisition where many were called on to renounce their beliefs or face death. Let's not forget the Mormons who were driven from state to state, and watched as the Prophet and his brother was martyred.
Let's not forget blacks who endured slavery, and then endured beatings, and even death during the civil rights movement.
"and realize other religions have legitimate and sacred intentions and purposes which they believe are necessary for the salvation of the dead."
Everyone has the right to their beliefs, we should respect the beliefs of the Jews to the best of our ability, and its only fair for them to respect our beliefs as well.
The Church has gone out of its way to respect their beliefs. Now it is their turn. If they can't do that then they don't deserve anymore respect than we are already giving them. Which is to not deliberately do the work and remove names done by mistake.
"Perhaps, the Jews ought to stop playing victim,"
It would be easy for almost any group of people to play the victim since most, if not all groups, have suffered persecution, and died for their beliefs.
Let's not forget the Inquisition where many were called on to renounce their beliefs or face death. Let's not forget the Mormons who were driven from state to state, and watched as the Prophet and his brother was martyred.
Let's not forget blacks who endured slavery, and then endured beatings, and even death during the civil rights movement.
"and realize other religions have legitimate and sacred intentions and purposes which they believe are necessary for the salvation of the dead."
Everyone has the right to their beliefs, we should respect the beliefs of the Jews to the best of our ability, and its only fair for them to respect our beliefs as well.
The Church has gone out of its way to respect their beliefs. Now it is their turn. If they can't do that then they don't deserve anymore respect than we are already giving them. Which is to not deliberately do the work and remove names done by mistake.
Hmmmnnnn.... | 4:28 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I guess a better analogy would be to honor the memory of Christ by converting to
Islam. The sacrifice of the Savior must be respected for what it is. If a
person died b/c of race or gender the same argument would not necessarily apply.
I can see his point. Whether or not I agree with his sentiment.
sistab29 | 4:30 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I understand where the Jewish commission is coming from, especially when they
mention how everything was removed from these people. However, nothing can be
accomplished by just halting all communications with the LDS Church. From what
I understand, the Jewish org. did not continue regular meetings to bring to
light more names they wished to be removed. It sounds like they have dropped
the ball here and not the LDS Church and then they cry foul play. I agree with
the LDS Church that a task force on both sides needs to be in place that
continually work together to fix the problem. The key here is
"continually" and not just assume that one time will fix all future
errors! The Church is trying to show respect but it is up to the Jewish
Commission to ensure their needs are met. They need submit their research to
the Church so the Church can remove the names as they begin to appear on the
website. That is their obligation to their ancestors if they feel the need to
continue to "protect" them.
Holy moly | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
You really have alot of nerve, the Jews ought to stop playing victim? They were
victims, victims because of their faith, is that too much for you to wrap your
head around, they were tortured and murdered for their sacred beliefs and for
you to say such a thing is so offensive. Just because you believe your gospel is
true great, believe away, but force your beliefs on others, especially when they
have died, why is that so hard for you Mormons to understand? If we wanted to
choose your faith, we would have done so when we were alive!
Parkite | 4:39 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The Mormons appear to have good intentions... nothing malicious. If it's
done out of love and not spite them we should not care.
JohnB | 4:45 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Before I understood the real truth, the main reason I would never entertain the
idea of being a mormon was the arrogance and insensitivity they carry themselves
with. We would have our neighbors come over and try and get us to go to church,
but I could not stomach hanging out with these people. These boards just
basically confirm my beliefs.
Good for him | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I agree that "William Tumpowsky is awesome". Way to stand up and be
willing to work. I hope the both organizations can come to a positive
agreement. As a software engineer, it's an outrageously difficult technical
problem to filter Holocaust victims according to the 1995 agreement, but the
church is doing it's best and, with talks, will be able to continually
improve.
I find Mr. Michel's actions regrettable and am excited that progress will continue through Mr. Tumpowsky's efforts.
I find Mr. Michel's actions regrettable and am excited that progress will continue through Mr. Tumpowsky's efforts.
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The most significant current force in reducing the number of Jews is marriage to
non-Jews. That is something that has been going on for a long time. One of my
direct ancestos was a Jew in Sweden in the 1600s. The critics of baptism of
Holocaust victims do not accept the fact that many such baptisms are performed
by living relatives who have joined the LDS Church. The living LDS relatives
of the deceased have more interest in the status of the deceased than people to
whom they are only names in a registry. Perhaps the solution is for the Jewish
groups who have such an intense investment in other people's ancestors to
conduct an unbaptism ceremony for each of the persons who have been the
beneficiaries of LDS temple ordinances. From the viewpoint of Jewish religion,
LDS baptisms in the name of deceased people are meaningless and ineffectual. If
some rabbi were to conduct vicarious circumcisions of my non-Jewish ancestors,
it would have no effect on me or them. If you say "Vicarious circumcision
has no religious meaning for Jews", the same goes for vicarious baptism.
Jpjazz | 4:56 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Morgan,
As an LDS member, I have no issue with other faiths baptizing myself or our leaders posthumously.
As an LDS member, I have no issue with other faiths baptizing myself or our leaders posthumously.
IRCHR | 5:01 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
My Jewish cousins are so caught up in "tradition" and narrow
interpretation of every thing there is no common ground. I can't be around
them for very long as I am the demon and they won't even talk about common
family members. ( My Grandfather married a lady who later converted to the LDS
religion) Any way for them, any thing I do that is contrary to what they
believe is evil and wrong. I can not win, so i just stay away.
Me | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Yawn.
Irchr | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I understand where this group is coming from. Any thing that does not originate
with them is evil and not good. So when the LDS People even pray for the dead
we are wrong, much less perform a baptism for someone. I have done lots of
Jewish names, all ancestors, and was told I had no right to do it. But I do
have a right to do it just as they have a right not to do it. But the LDS can
not force any one, alive or dead, to be come a Mormon unless they want to. SO
it is a mute issue. I say stop the dialogue, be sensitive, don't do it in
mass, but just ignore them. After a while it will go away. This is just one
group. I don't want trouble, but you will never appease this group, or the
next or the next. SO we smile and go on.
concerned | 5:07 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
No one is breaking into buildings. All the Jews have been through and then have
such a hard core attitude towards others. How soon they forget the past.
Raymond | 5:08 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Re.. John Pack Lambert
How's it going buddy?
I knew you would be coming on this blog sometime today. You seem to know everything, so please share with us on all your knowledge of the Jews? By the way, are you Jewish? Do you believe in doing their work after they have died?
How's it going buddy?
I knew you would be coming on this blog sometime today. You seem to know everything, so please share with us on all your knowledge of the Jews? By the way, are you Jewish? Do you believe in doing their work after they have died?
Christ was a Jew. | 5:09 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
He came to earth to show us how to love each other and we've spent the last
2000 years killing each other over how He said it.
What is missed in all of this posturing is motivation. LDS people who are baptizing their ancestors who are Jews do it out of LOVE. The Nazi genocide was all about hate. They are not trying to take someones Jewish heritage from them, but giving them a gift of love. If a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu or even another Christian were to perform rites for me I would feel grateful for the love shown. In the end we are all Gods people.
However, we have to realize that Judaism is both a religion and a culture whose people feel are the chosen few and live life excluding people or groups - just take a look a Palestine! The LDS Doctrine of Baptism and other rites for the dead are about inclusions. Frankly it's like those people who risked their lives to saves Jews during WWII. They are trying to save ALL people from Satan.
What's most said is the defining of their lives/religion by a time of evil and hate.
What is missed in all of this posturing is motivation. LDS people who are baptizing their ancestors who are Jews do it out of LOVE. The Nazi genocide was all about hate. They are not trying to take someones Jewish heritage from them, but giving them a gift of love. If a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu or even another Christian were to perform rites for me I would feel grateful for the love shown. In the end we are all Gods people.
However, we have to realize that Judaism is both a religion and a culture whose people feel are the chosen few and live life excluding people or groups - just take a look a Palestine! The LDS Doctrine of Baptism and other rites for the dead are about inclusions. Frankly it's like those people who risked their lives to saves Jews during WWII. They are trying to save ALL people from Satan.
What's most said is the defining of their lives/religion by a time of evil and hate.
Re: morgan | 5:15 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Hopefully this will help clarify a misunderstanding you mentioned. Vicarious
baptism doesn't involve declaring someone to be a "different
religion." It simply provides the opportunity for the departed to
voluntarily accept the baptism done on their behalf if they choose. With that in
mind, LDS church members wouldn't be "angry" if others
"posthumously baptized Brigham Young or Joseph Smith as a Jew," or
another religion for that matter. Nor are church members trying to "force
[their] beliefs" on the dead, again because the end result is choice, not
compulsion.
Misinformation | 5:21 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
There seems to be a plethora of misinformation regarding the work done in LDS
temples.
To: re the truth | 4:13 p.m. and Morgan:
There is nothing in the ordinances done for the dead in LDS temples that involves "forcing" our religion on anyone. The deceased is not "declared" to be LDS--the name is merely entered into the database so that some other LDS descendant doesn't duplicate the effort. The ordinance is performed, but is only in force if the deceased accepts it of their own free will. If they accept the ordinance, it means a few things:
1) they still live
2) they've learned something there that they didn't know here about the importance of said ordinance in the eternal scheme of things, and
3) it doesn't represent membership in a "religion", but rather entrance into God's kingdom.
If the other hand, they don't accept it, or the LDS Church is wrong and God doesn't require it, or if there IS no afterlife, what does it matter anyway? Count us as foolish and move on.
All that being said, if individual members of the LDS Church have been submitting non-ancestor Holocaust-victim names for temple work, they need to stop.
To: re the truth | 4:13 p.m. and Morgan:
There is nothing in the ordinances done for the dead in LDS temples that involves "forcing" our religion on anyone. The deceased is not "declared" to be LDS--the name is merely entered into the database so that some other LDS descendant doesn't duplicate the effort. The ordinance is performed, but is only in force if the deceased accepts it of their own free will. If they accept the ordinance, it means a few things:
1) they still live
2) they've learned something there that they didn't know here about the importance of said ordinance in the eternal scheme of things, and
3) it doesn't represent membership in a "religion", but rather entrance into God's kingdom.
If the other hand, they don't accept it, or the LDS Church is wrong and God doesn't require it, or if there IS no afterlife, what does it matter anyway? Count us as foolish and move on.
All that being said, if individual members of the LDS Church have been submitting non-ancestor Holocaust-victim names for temple work, they need to stop.
Boiseguy | 5:24 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
If I found out mormons were including my dead grandparents in their rituals I
would be outraged too. It is not their place to be doing this unless the
families approve. It's out of respect for the dead. Many people do not have
any respect for the LDS church, and it is offensive for the church to just take
it upon themselves in doing this. The dead are not allowed to speak for
themselves. Believing that your religion is the true and only one and that every
dead person is just waiting for the mormons to conduct this "work" is
naive and one-sided. Not everyone wants to drink your koolaid.
Adam | 5:25 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The church needs to be careful how to handle this. Appease the Jews okay. Now,
whose next? One group, and then another and then another until we are unable to
fulfill the Lord's commandment of doing the work for the dead. I remember
President Hinkley said in one of his last conferences that persecution WILL
increase. He said it in a very forthwright way. There comes a moment where we
are going to have to stand up and say, "sorry, we are allowed to excercise
our freedom of religion the way we believe is right". If another group
prays for us, do we attack? No. May the Lord's work continue. The Jews
will come to know and embrace the fullness of the gospel in all due time. Until
then, we must endure persecution.
Louise | 5:25 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
My last name is Jewish. They settled in Scotland in the 1000's
To David | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Baptism by proxy in the temple does not make anyone a Mormon! They are not
listed as 'members' of the Church, or counted numerically. 100 years
from now, they will still not be listed as Mormon!
You have a lot more nerve | 5:47 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Holy moly,
"You really have alot of nerve, the Jews ought to stop playing victim? They were victims, victims because of their faith, is that too much for you to wrap your head around, they were tortured and murdered for their sacred beliefs and for you to say such a thing is so offensive."
The key words are "were victims." I am offended that you would say that saying what we believe is somehow offensive. I take offense at your post and I for one will not sit back as you say things which hurt those I love. If you don't understand that Mormons endured persecution too than you deserve no respect.
What's next? Do Christians get to play victim for Jews killing Christ for his beliefs?
Absolutely not. It happened a long time ago.
"Just because you believe your gospel is true great, believe away, but force your beliefs on others, especially when they have died, why is that so hard for you Mormons to understand?"
Why must we agree with you? Why do you want to force us to practice our religion as you deem fit to allow us. Now butt out of our business.
"You really have alot of nerve, the Jews ought to stop playing victim? They were victims, victims because of their faith, is that too much for you to wrap your head around, they were tortured and murdered for their sacred beliefs and for you to say such a thing is so offensive."
The key words are "were victims." I am offended that you would say that saying what we believe is somehow offensive. I take offense at your post and I for one will not sit back as you say things which hurt those I love. If you don't understand that Mormons endured persecution too than you deserve no respect.
What's next? Do Christians get to play victim for Jews killing Christ for his beliefs?
Absolutely not. It happened a long time ago.
"Just because you believe your gospel is true great, believe away, but force your beliefs on others, especially when they have died, why is that so hard for you Mormons to understand?"
Why must we agree with you? Why do you want to force us to practice our religion as you deem fit to allow us. Now butt out of our business.
Joan | 5:53 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
RE: Boiseguy
You might want to find out what you are talking about before making comments like that.
You might want to find out what you are talking about before making comments like that.
Cats | 5:54 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To Raymond Takashi Swenson: RIGHT ON! You have expressed it brilliantly. I
really think these people are being exceptionally overly sensitive. Obviously,
they don't believe the baptisms are valid, so why do they even care. If
the Catholics did a baptism for me vicariously, I wouldn't care one bit.
I'm very sorry for these holocaust victims, but they are being quite unreasonable. And, the only work that is being done is done out of love and respect. It is also totaly within the bounds of free agency. The individual is given the choice whether to accept or reject the work. The thing is, these individuals have a completely different perspective once they are on the other side of the veil. I have no doubt they are very grateful for the blessing. I have a testimony of this.
No one has more love and feels a deeper kinship towards the Jewish people than the LDS people. I hope these Jewish people will grow to understand this and realize this Temple work is being done out of the greatest love and respect for them.
I'm very sorry for these holocaust victims, but they are being quite unreasonable. And, the only work that is being done is done out of love and respect. It is also totaly within the bounds of free agency. The individual is given the choice whether to accept or reject the work. The thing is, these individuals have a completely different perspective once they are on the other side of the veil. I have no doubt they are very grateful for the blessing. I have a testimony of this.
No one has more love and feels a deeper kinship towards the Jewish people than the LDS people. I hope these Jewish people will grow to understand this and realize this Temple work is being done out of the greatest love and respect for them.
Ron | 6:01 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To answer an earlier question: As a Mormon, I would not be offended one bit if
Islam or Jews or anyone else performed some "ordinance" for Joseph
Smith or Brigham Young. What do I care? Those ordinances mean nothing to me - I
don't believe they have any effect. In any event, if those ordinances DO
mean something and Joseph Smith or Brigham Young were being given a choice to
accept them, then that is wonderful!
They argue that it is "disrespecting" the dead by performing these ordinances. What?! As a Mormon missionary, was I disrespecting non-Mormons by offering them the opportunity to hear about or accept baptism or other ordinances? No, of course I wasn't. I was just talking to them.
It seems to me that Michel is concerned that what we teach is actually true, and he doesn't want dead Jews to hear about it or be given any chance to accept it - which is in direct conflict with doctrine that he believes, I am sure.
This whole thing is bizarre.
They argue that it is "disrespecting" the dead by performing these ordinances. What?! As a Mormon missionary, was I disrespecting non-Mormons by offering them the opportunity to hear about or accept baptism or other ordinances? No, of course I wasn't. I was just talking to them.
It seems to me that Michel is concerned that what we teach is actually true, and he doesn't want dead Jews to hear about it or be given any chance to accept it - which is in direct conflict with doctrine that he believes, I am sure.
This whole thing is bizarre.
re: Boiseguy | 6:04 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
You're supposed to be a descendent of somebody who you submit to have
temple work done. We don't believe everybody is waiting for the Mormons to
conduct the work. We believe that many refuse this work, just like they refuse
to accept the Gospel in this life. That said, if our Church isn't true, all
we are doing is wasting our time. If the Church is true, then we are doing a
huge favor for those that died before they could hear the Gospel, and now want
to join the Church.
JoriPage | 6:08 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Oh for Heaven's sake! I have always understood that LDS proxy baptisms are
only to allow the 'departed' the opportunity to 'accept' the
gospel if that is what they decide to do after the Second Coming.... no one is
force feeding the LDS Gospel or LDS Church membership to anyone. No one is
making anyone change their last name or heritage. It is all done in the spirit
of love. It seems as tho someone has to complain about something because his 15
minutes of 'fame' expired and he wants attention. What does he want to
do about all the proxy baptisms done before he found out about the LDS Church
and their beliefs? I, for one, would appreciate anyone trying to give my poor
soul all the 'extra' help it needs to reach the Pearly Gates!
Are they the children? Yes. Okay | 6:11 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Adam,
"The church needs to be careful how to handle this. Appease the Jews okay. Now, whose next? One group, and then another and then another until we are unable to fulfill the Lord's commandment of doing the work for the dead."
We should draw the line at performing ordinance work for those of our direct ancestors and those who have living descendants who submit their names for Temple work. There is no reason for us to perform ordinance for thousands of Jews based on lists of Jews.
If on the other hand we extract names of people who lived over a hundred years ago who with no immediate living relatives (parents, wife, children, and their siblings) then we are free to perform the ordinances since any descendant is one of many.
Assuming each generation has two descendants. They could have as many as 68 4th Great Grandchildren (100 years), or 4,096 10th Great Grandchildren (200 years). This number increase or decreases based on number of their descendants.
Going back far enough and we are all related and can probably find several connections to victims of the Holocaust. We should respect the direct living descendants of holocaust victims.
"The church needs to be careful how to handle this. Appease the Jews okay. Now, whose next? One group, and then another and then another until we are unable to fulfill the Lord's commandment of doing the work for the dead."
We should draw the line at performing ordinance work for those of our direct ancestors and those who have living descendants who submit their names for Temple work. There is no reason for us to perform ordinance for thousands of Jews based on lists of Jews.
If on the other hand we extract names of people who lived over a hundred years ago who with no immediate living relatives (parents, wife, children, and their siblings) then we are free to perform the ordinances since any descendant is one of many.
Assuming each generation has two descendants. They could have as many as 68 4th Great Grandchildren (100 years), or 4,096 10th Great Grandchildren (200 years). This number increase or decreases based on number of their descendants.
Going back far enough and we are all related and can probably find several connections to victims of the Holocaust. We should respect the direct living descendants of holocaust victims.
Dan | 6:31 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
As an LDS member, my response to Tumpowsky's statements in this article are
twofold:
1. It is obvious to me that the Holocost angle is being played up in this situation in a dishonest and distorted way.
2. To suggest that proxy baptisms for the dead are comparable to someone breaking into an LDS temple is, again, distorted and dishonest - and patently ridiculous.
Tumpowsky and others of his opinion need to find a way to express their concerns in a more honest way, without resorting to emotional hysterics and absurdites in an effort to make their point. Otherwise, I will not listen to them.
1. It is obvious to me that the Holocost angle is being played up in this situation in a dishonest and distorted way.
2. To suggest that proxy baptisms for the dead are comparable to someone breaking into an LDS temple is, again, distorted and dishonest - and patently ridiculous.
Tumpowsky and others of his opinion need to find a way to express their concerns in a more honest way, without resorting to emotional hysterics and absurdites in an effort to make their point. Otherwise, I will not listen to them.
LDS Jew | 6:38 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
About a dozen Jews have been complaining about this issue for a long time and it
is is getting old, but they still keep the fires burning. They know that the
ordinance work is only just that unless the person accepts it. Most Jews do not
believe in an afterlife any way. Coming out of the Jewish culture, I agree that
many still hold the victimization flag high and retain their
"identity" from the contant complaining.
Mike R. | 6:40 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
How mad would I be if the Jews baptized Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Jews? I
wouldn't care. If the Jews believed in such baptism and did it, more power
to them. They can baptize me a Jew when I die if they want. My ancestors were
most likely Jews and were most likely some of those who were forced to convert
during the Dark Ages in Europe. So I for one, wouldn't care. They can
baptize my Mother, who passed away many years ago, if they want and I won't
care.
As the LDS Church keeps saying, those that have passed on can either accept or reject the vicarious ordinance in the afterlife. By the way, they won't be "Mormons". They will be members of the Church of the Firstborn.
As the LDS Church keeps saying, those that have passed on can either accept or reject the vicarious ordinance in the afterlife. By the way, they won't be "Mormons". They will be members of the Church of the Firstborn.
AMEN! | 6:41 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I, as a mormon, would never condemn any other religion for performing any kind
of ritual or prayer for a person (or relative) that has passed on if that
religion genuinely believes it is for the betterment of that deceased individual
and is done in a spirit of love. I have been baptized for persons who have
passed on, and I assure you, it was a beautiful feeling for me to think that I
may be doing something for someone who didn't have the opportunity while
they were here. I never insulted them by doing it. I never thought less of them
or thought of them in a degrading way. If any other religion performed or
offered a beautiful ceremony in their religion with as much meaning in it as the
mormons have in performing these baptisms for the dead, I would be deeply
touched, and count myself lucky to have someone else that thought as highly
about my ancestors as I do. Unfortunately, some people are just always going to
find some reason to hate, and get worked up at the expense of anothers good
motives.
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