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Holocaust survivors halt talks with LDS
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Even H.S. students know | 1:44 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Interesting points,
"Also, as memebers of the church we should try to understand the other's point of view. Many people on this message board have clearly missed the key point that Jewish people are very concerned about the legacy of these victims, the do not want anything to potentially confuse future generations of the details of this atrocity. As a memeber of the church, I truley respect that."
It is a good point but it is wrong to believe that history would somehow confuse the Jewish victims of the Holocaust with Mormons. It would take a lot of research to tie the names of the names on the list of ordinances to the victims of the Holocaust and I doubt that future generations would be intelligent enough to take temple ordinances which don't mention the holocaust as the cause of death to a list of the victims of the Holocaust without knowing that they were Jews.
As someone who has done historical research for my degree I can assure them that we aren't that stupid even if our field is continually insulted. Of course if our civilizations ended and another took its place it might be possible.
"Also, as memebers of the church we should try to understand the other's point of view. Many people on this message board have clearly missed the key point that Jewish people are very concerned about the legacy of these victims, the do not want anything to potentially confuse future generations of the details of this atrocity. As a memeber of the church, I truley respect that."
It is a good point but it is wrong to believe that history would somehow confuse the Jewish victims of the Holocaust with Mormons. It would take a lot of research to tie the names of the names on the list of ordinances to the victims of the Holocaust and I doubt that future generations would be intelligent enough to take temple ordinances which don't mention the holocaust as the cause of death to a list of the victims of the Holocaust without knowing that they were Jews.
As someone who has done historical research for my degree I can assure them that we aren't that stupid even if our field is continually insulted. Of course if our civilizations ended and another took its place it might be possible.
Pharisee | 1:44 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I think it's terrible that anyone would want baptize a dead person. How
grouse!
Comments continue below
Re: Always Right | 2:04 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I wouldn't mind. Doesn't offend me.
Gustav | 2:07 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Mr. Michael makes the same mistake, he is accusing the church of.
Can he show any legitimation by the people he is trying to deprive of baptism?
He is just a namedropper, using some fashionable words like "holocaust victim" and "Mormons" to distinguish himself at cost of the victims, most of them he doesn�t even know, not to speak of what they would declare if they could speak.
Can he show any legitimation by the people he is trying to deprive of baptism?
He is just a namedropper, using some fashionable words like "holocaust victim" and "Mormons" to distinguish himself at cost of the victims, most of them he doesn�t even know, not to speak of what they would declare if they could speak.
Why Not | 2:08 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
So, for the natural man, we don't know what the Jews who died in the
halocaust really want, i.e. baptisim or not...but, why not let them decide for
themselves? Agency, freedom to choose is a wonderful gift we have here in
mortality, why not extend that blessing on to those that have pased on? What is
the Jews are correct?, then it won't matter, what the LDS church does in
the name of Jesus...what if the LDS church and it's doctrines are
correct?...these Jews won't have to wait in the back of the line to be
baptized, they'll be moved right to the front of the line and have more
time to enjoy doing things that are spiritually satisfying, rather than waiting
around for their baptisim to be completed, and who knows, when, there's
been a lot of souls that have lived on the earth that will have this opportunity
to be baptised...so, why not now...what does baptisim really mean, and how does
it jeapordize the faith and values of living Jews...especially since they
don't even belive in Jesus...remember, no one likes standing in line...do
it now and have more free time to explore the universe!
Stop playing the only victim | 2:09 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
An Apology,
"LDS, need to honor their wishes and refrain from doing anything that they perceive diminishes their religion. We must take them for their word that baptizing their ancestors hurts them."
And they should take our word that we are doing everything we can to prevent any inappropriate ordinances from being done. It's clear they are expecting to much from the Church.
We won't halt all temple work simply to prevent a few thousand names from being submitted repeatedly.
Also, they have not shown any respect to the Church who has also endured persecution. They demand that we respect their wishes and in doing so chose to disrespect the religious beliefs of Mormons who have also endured persecution.
"To the direct descendants of those who are Jewish who have joined LDS. You are the ones that need to work this out. You are the only ones with your unique birthright who can make a legitimate argument for doing the work your direct ancestors."
These are those who are being disrespected by this Jewish organization. I have no hard feelings for any Jew but it's clear this organization is intent on persecuting the Church and using Jewish victimhood.
"LDS, need to honor their wishes and refrain from doing anything that they perceive diminishes their religion. We must take them for their word that baptizing their ancestors hurts them."
And they should take our word that we are doing everything we can to prevent any inappropriate ordinances from being done. It's clear they are expecting to much from the Church.
We won't halt all temple work simply to prevent a few thousand names from being submitted repeatedly.
Also, they have not shown any respect to the Church who has also endured persecution. They demand that we respect their wishes and in doing so chose to disrespect the religious beliefs of Mormons who have also endured persecution.
"To the direct descendants of those who are Jewish who have joined LDS. You are the ones that need to work this out. You are the only ones with your unique birthright who can make a legitimate argument for doing the work your direct ancestors."
These are those who are being disrespected by this Jewish organization. I have no hard feelings for any Jew but it's clear this organization is intent on persecuting the Church and using Jewish victimhood.
Gerry | 2:12 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I have see how the upper echelons of the Church operate. Keeping promises they
have made is sacred to these men and women. If the Church gave its word not to
baptize these individuals by proxy, then I am certain it was not done.
That having been said, I see no reason why a Jewish organization should have the right to dictate what a member of the Church should be able to do with the names of his or her own ancestors.
That having been said, I see no reason why a Jewish organization should have the right to dictate what a member of the Church should be able to do with the names of his or her own ancestors.
Re: Clifton | 2:30 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Well, golly gee, I thought the devil only collected souls?
BUT | 2:35 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
there must be hope...even for the neanthertal man, who might be my relative.
PhObic | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I hope somebody baptizes me after I die. The reason for this is, I cannot stand
pools of water......it scares the never mind out of me.
Fred Barrett | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Difficult to understand these kinds of petty actions on the part of anyone. The
other side of death is no different than this side. We have the agency to choose
for ourselves what we will accept and what we will not accept. How can one
believe that something performed in this life by a mortal can be forced on a
person of another faith after death. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Chris | 3:02 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The part of the Jewish community that cares about this issue are upset and
oppose the Church's performing the proxy baptismal ceremonies on behalf of
their ancestors.
The Church actually performed tens if not hundreds of thousands of those proxy baptisms already!
Taking the names out of the database means nothing since those baptism were already performed!
It is NOT unreasonable for the Jewish community to expect that those baptisms that have already been performed by REVERSED! That is the whole point! But the Church won't reverse those baptisms. How can they? Simple. Remove the records of the baptisms so that it is as if they did not happen.
The fact that the Church won't do that is what causes the problem. "Well-meaning" members (read "arrogant, self-absorbed, religiocentric zealots") continue to put names in because they know the work will get done before the names are identified and removed. Then it is too late and the "agreement" the Church had with the Jewish community effectively means nothing!
That is exactly why negotiations and talks have ended. The Jewish community has every reason not to trust the LDS Church leaders.
The Church actually performed tens if not hundreds of thousands of those proxy baptisms already!
Taking the names out of the database means nothing since those baptism were already performed!
It is NOT unreasonable for the Jewish community to expect that those baptisms that have already been performed by REVERSED! That is the whole point! But the Church won't reverse those baptisms. How can they? Simple. Remove the records of the baptisms so that it is as if they did not happen.
The fact that the Church won't do that is what causes the problem. "Well-meaning" members (read "arrogant, self-absorbed, religiocentric zealots") continue to put names in because they know the work will get done before the names are identified and removed. Then it is too late and the "agreement" the Church had with the Jewish community effectively means nothing!
That is exactly why negotiations and talks have ended. The Jewish community has every reason not to trust the LDS Church leaders.
S | 3:40 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Thirty years of experience has shown me that a small percentage of LDS Church
members submit ancestors' names to temples; most is done by the LDS
extraction program. The Church as an organization has kept its word and does
not extract names from records of holocaust victims and asks members not to
submit names from these records unless they are family members. The Jewish
organization needs to accept 1) that unfortunately a few LDS people are not
going to comply with the rules. The Church can remove the names once someone
notices them if they have been inappropriately submitted, but 100% prevention
has not been possible. Screening mechanisms can be evaded. Better screening
methods would help the Church and this organization tremendously, but affordable
technology isn't here yet; and 2) family members of victims who want names
submitted have a right to have that done. Others can refuse permission for their
ancestors' temple work to be done and request they not be in the IGI, but
they do not have a right to keep all Jewish names out. That choice belongs to
family members, not a corporate entity.
a descendant | 4:03 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
My father and grandfather were Jewish prisoners at Dachau. They choose to hold
true to their beliefs and not convert to Christianity. Because of this they were
treated worse then dogs. My grandpa died shortly after being liberated and my
dad is still alive. The last thing my grandfather told my dad before he died was
to always follow his heart and never back down from his beliefs for anything. My
grandfather chose to be a jew. Eventually this led to his death. He was willing
to die for his beliefs and according to my dad was incredibly proud of his
heritage and religon. Personally my grandfather would be outraged if someone
tried to baptize him into another religon that he didn't want. He would see
it as incredibly disrespectful. I can't speak for my grandfather but in
this case my father can. A cousin that is an LDS convert tried to do a baptisim
for my grandfather. My father knowing my grandpa was very upset. It didn't
stop my cousin from doing it though. Now tell me people, knowing how my
grandfather felt (willing to die for his beliefs) can you honestly justify doing
a baptisim for him?
Epstein's Mother | 4:27 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Who cares?
John Pack Lambert | 4:33 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To the 11:17 commentator,
People were killed in the Holocaust because of race, not faith. The majority of Jews killed in the Holocaust were not practicing Jews. It was about race, not religion.
People were killed in the Holocaust because of race, not faith. The majority of Jews killed in the Holocaust were not practicing Jews. It was about race, not religion.
John Pack Lambert | 4:43 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To Chris at 3:02,
To not publish the names answers any grip Mr. Michel has voiced.
Your desire to force us to change ordinances that we have done strikes of trying to force another religion to conform to your standards.
I have to say that my general impression of Jewish geneological associations is that they keep demanding everything from the church, more hours for family history centers in New York City, and on and on and on, but it is always them demanding from us and unless we change our rules and ordinances to fit them they will not be satisfied.
To not publish the names answers any grip Mr. Michel has voiced.
Your desire to force us to change ordinances that we have done strikes of trying to force another religion to conform to your standards.
I have to say that my general impression of Jewish geneological associations is that they keep demanding everything from the church, more hours for family history centers in New York City, and on and on and on, but it is always them demanding from us and unless we change our rules and ordinances to fit them they will not be satisfied.
John Pack Lambert | 4:46 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To the 4:03 commentator,
The Holocaust was based on your ancestors' race, not their religion. Stop confusing this important fact. Once you admit that Christian Jews were killed in the concentration camps and approach the issue as such you will understand better. Your grandfather did not choose to be a Jew, he was born a Jew.
The Holocaust was based on your ancestors' race, not their religion. Stop confusing this important fact. Once you admit that Christian Jews were killed in the concentration camps and approach the issue as such you will understand better. Your grandfather did not choose to be a Jew, he was born a Jew.
Snowman | 4:54 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I had twelve family members killed in the Holocaust.
I can certainly speak for them more that a person who cant even spell "holocaust" correctly, but wants to
save their souls.
I can certainly speak for them more that a person who cant even spell "holocaust" correctly, but wants to
save their souls.
Humph | 5:22 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Baptisms for the dead is morbid, discrespectful, and conceited. It is an
offensive practice that disrespects all other beliefs and religions. The
arrogance of the Mormon church to think that it is helping people is asinine.
question | 5:55 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
So if someone is born and baptized a Catholic or some other Christian
denomination and were to die in some sort of atrocity would there be a baptisim
for them. If so wouldn't that be disrespectful in the sense that it's
like saying their previous baptisim doesn't matter because it's not a
mormon one?
My Opinion | 7:16 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
WHY does anyone CARE that a religious organization baptizes DEAD PEOPLE
vicariously????????????? I mean, they're DEAD!!!!!
I think if the Jewish community is that upset with the LDS Church, they should consider BOYCOTTING the Church's FREE genealogical library instead of being freeloaders. In fact, maybe they ought to join the gays and gay supporters and boycott the entire city and state!
I think if the Jewish community is that upset with the LDS Church, they should consider BOYCOTTING the Church's FREE genealogical library instead of being freeloaders. In fact, maybe they ought to join the gays and gay supporters and boycott the entire city and state!
It's going to happen | 8:10 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
What members of the American Gathering don't understand, is that the temple
work for the Jewish victims of the Holocaust is going to take place regardless
of their disapproval. If it doesn't happen now, it will happen after the
Lord returns, during the millennium. The LDS Church leaders understand this.
That's why they're okay with pulling the names off their genealogical
database.
Clare | 8:34 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Dear a descendant,
Your cousin does have the right to do the work for his ancestors. He did it out of love, but he also has the right. I just found out that I'm a quarter Jewish. I was shocked, but thrilled. Now I can legitimately do work for my ancestors. Maybe you should talk to your cousin about your feelings and ask him why he chose to do your grandfather's work even though he probably knew it would upset you. It will take me years to do this work. I don't even know one word of Polish, but I feel in my heart that this is the greatest gift I can give. Please try to understand those who disagree with you and try to forgive them for doing something that offends you. I might not find anyone of my relatives who were murdered by the vile Nazis, but if I do, I cry with joy and give them a choice in the next life. A CHOICE!
Your cousin does have the right to do the work for his ancestors. He did it out of love, but he also has the right. I just found out that I'm a quarter Jewish. I was shocked, but thrilled. Now I can legitimately do work for my ancestors. Maybe you should talk to your cousin about your feelings and ask him why he chose to do your grandfather's work even though he probably knew it would upset you. It will take me years to do this work. I don't even know one word of Polish, but I feel in my heart that this is the greatest gift I can give. Please try to understand those who disagree with you and try to forgive them for doing something that offends you. I might not find anyone of my relatives who were murdered by the vile Nazis, but if I do, I cry with joy and give them a choice in the next life. A CHOICE!
suprise suprise | 9:03 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Here come the mormons thinking only they hold the key to salvation! Look out
other religous beliefs; any baptisims or religous rights you had before you died
obviously aren't good enough! I agree with the poster at 5:55. You guys
need to get over yourselves and leave people alone. As for the posts saying the
mormons can associate with how the jews feel having been martyred themselves...
You've got to be joking. You're telling me that maybe 50-60 years of
actual persecution is enough to put you on the same level as thousands of years
of persecution? Get real. Another thing while I'm on that topic, can anyone
show me the Jewish equivalent of the Mountain Meadows Massacre? You weren't
martyred if you're slaughtering innocent people yourselves.
a descendant | 9:30 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To John Pack Lambert,
My dad and grandfather chose Judaism as their religon. They weren't forced into it. That story isn't made up. The number tattooed into my fathers arm is proof of it. So you know since you're obviously such an expert on it, my father and grandfather were offered an out. They were told that if they renounced their faith and converted to Christianity then they would be left alone. They decided to be brave and stand up for what they believed in much like your Joseph Smith. Yes christian people of Jewish descent were put into the prison camps too. The first ones tracked down were those of the Jewish faith. My grandfather was Jewish only by faith and faith alone. He was not a jew by heritage. Thanks for showing so much tact though. And mormons wonder why they're hated...
My dad and grandfather chose Judaism as their religon. They weren't forced into it. That story isn't made up. The number tattooed into my fathers arm is proof of it. So you know since you're obviously such an expert on it, my father and grandfather were offered an out. They were told that if they renounced their faith and converted to Christianity then they would be left alone. They decided to be brave and stand up for what they believed in much like your Joseph Smith. Yes christian people of Jewish descent were put into the prison camps too. The first ones tracked down were those of the Jewish faith. My grandfather was Jewish only by faith and faith alone. He was not a jew by heritage. Thanks for showing so much tact though. And mormons wonder why they're hated...
tigerlily | 10:14 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
if the jewish people that are being baptized are being baptized by their lds
ancestors, there is nothing anyone can do about it
tigerlily | 10:18 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Linda: yes people can be baptized for those who have passed on.
tigerlily | 10:24 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Ricky unless the proxy is family he/she would not know anything about the person
tigerlily | 10:31 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To Red. If names are submitted by family who are lds the names wouldn't be
kicked out as you say. there would be no reason for it. if the families are lds
the baptizm can take place
Anonymous | 10:40 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
i know of mormons that have ancestors that are jewish are frustrated from taking
the names off... the church is growing in the jewish communities and there is no
dought they will have ancestors that were in the holocaust...
Anonymous | 11:10 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Wow. I didn't know that people could be baptized after life. Slow you roll
people, I don't think Christians do this.
tigerlily | 11:10 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
You LDS Just Don't Get It... just incase you are not aware of how the lds
church membership works here it is, you are still a member of the church unless
you have had your name taken off of the records
Ed Clinch | 11:14 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Two considerations: Some active LDS have family among the holocaust victims. Do
they not have a right to their own ancestral line?
And finally, four possibilities.
A. The Jews are the true faith and anything done vicariously has no effect, so no biggie.
B. The LDS are right so this helps the holocaust victims, so good thing.
C. They are both right, or some combination of correct, so no biggie on the souls of these victims.
D. They are both wrong, so why the big fuss?
Both faiths have claims on the dead, and I do not get the Jewish angst. But I am LDS. Sorry, folks, it's part of our doctrine. ALL people, living and dead, have a right to choose to accept baptism or not.
No one is compelled by force.
And finally, four possibilities.
A. The Jews are the true faith and anything done vicariously has no effect, so no biggie.
B. The LDS are right so this helps the holocaust victims, so good thing.
C. They are both right, or some combination of correct, so no biggie on the souls of these victims.
D. They are both wrong, so why the big fuss?
Both faiths have claims on the dead, and I do not get the Jewish angst. But I am LDS. Sorry, folks, it's part of our doctrine. ALL people, living and dead, have a right to choose to accept baptism or not.
No one is compelled by force.
tigerlily | 11:17 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
cremation: cremation is not against the lds religion
tigerlily | 11:21 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
You LDS Just Don't Get It... : what if those nine people are lds relatives
of those whose names they submitted. they can't be excommunicated for
baptising their own relatives
Jerry Aulenbach | 11:22 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
This is about the understanding of agency. A proxy baptism is a gift-it is not
forced on the intended recipient. It is offered, and the deceased person has
the option of accepting it or not. The Society must not understand this
clearly, because if they did, then they could not deny anyone from offering a
gift. Suppose the person accepts it and is converted to Christianity (yes,
mormons/LDS are Christians). Well, a Jew may see it as a loss, but if they
believe in freedom to choose, they can only accept it. Temple work for the dead
is not forced on anyone.
-Jerry Aulenbach
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
-Jerry Aulenbach
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Dan | 11:28 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To Jews baptism of the dead is a desecration. It is as if you are entering a
Jewish cemetery and replacing the stars of David with crosses. What does it
matter-- the people are dead, you say. Well it matters to Jews, because it is a
violation of Jewish law and practice. It is not the same as praying for
someone's soul. It is theft. That should be enough for any person or any
religion to hear in order to stop the practice.
Lori Kremer | 11:34 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Many ask, what difference does it make? Does anyone understand the relevance of
RESPECT? These people suffered horrific deaths in the name of their faith. Do
you really believe that a ritualistic practice will somehow make them more
worthy to their creator? Until the greater population of the LDS religion
suffers such loss and degradation as the Jews, hold your comments and
"kind" gestures.
a descendant | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Clare, I would like to congratulate you on your discovery. I understand what you
are saying and would like to thank you for your kindness in your comment.
However I do think you may have read the story wrong. My Grandfather is the one
that would be upset not me. My father had to try to stick up for him. I would
think my father being a direct descendant would have the most say in this. I
guess I don't understand how my cousin has the right to defy the ancestors
wishes.
Jon B. Holbrook | 5:05 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
It is a sad commentary that a group of people that were denied their very lives
because of their religion, would deny others the opportunity of practicing the
sacred rites of their religion. Respect and tolerance affects all parties
involved. It is not an exclusive domain of only politically-correct groups.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day has good relations with the Jewish community as a whole. I hope that mutual respect and love will be the rule in the future. It is only a small group of Jews that have complained about the LDS practice of Baptisms for the Dead.
I will support The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in whatever its decision is regarding this matter. The 1995 agreement was fair and just then, it should be now.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day has good relations with the Jewish community as a whole. I hope that mutual respect and love will be the rule in the future. It is only a small group of Jews that have complained about the LDS practice of Baptisms for the Dead.
I will support The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in whatever its decision is regarding this matter. The 1995 agreement was fair and just then, it should be now.
Juli | 8:02 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Please note that the LDS church said that ONLY direct family descendants from
the Holocaust could do any temple work for their kindred dead. This was agreed
to by the Jewish community involved. Only the direct descendant can do this
work if they choose. Shouldn't family get to chose for their family? This
doesn't affect anyone's "Jewishness" as stated by The
American Gathering of the Jewish Holocaust Survivors. A Jew is the descendant
Judah, that fact can never change regardless of any other religion's act
whether it be baptism or the lighting of a candle in a Catholic Cathedral or a
prayer on the behalf of a "Jew" by another faith.
John Pack Lambert | 8:59 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I think I have figured out why the discussions broke down. Mr. Michel wants
to Church to actual rescind the baptisms of the deceased. However the church
has never, ever, ever done such a thing. Since the deceased has the choice to
accepted or reject the work done for him or her, it makes no sense for the
church to cancel such actions.
Mr. Michel is trying to force the church to do a procedure that does not even exist.
Mr. Michel is trying to force the church to do a procedure that does not even exist.
SS | 1:57 p.m. Nov. 13, 2008
I have to laugh. On these boards on Church topics, there are always plenty of
people who write something like, "I want you Mormons to leave me
alone!"
But they are the ones posting on a blog about the Mormon Church.
It strikes me that they have left the Church and really miss it. Otherwise, why keep coming on to a forum where you know there will be Mormons, demanding that they "leave you alone?"
But they are the ones posting on a blog about the Mormon Church.
It strikes me that they have left the Church and really miss it. Otherwise, why keep coming on to a forum where you know there will be Mormons, demanding that they "leave you alone?"
Anonymous | 11:17 a.m. Nov. 15, 2008
How does anyone know what anyone that has passed away wants? That's what I
think is weird. Maybe people don't want to be baptized.
Marcelo Carioca | 3:23 p.m. Oct. 30, 2009
It's not hard to believe why jews asked LDS to halt these procedutres. Is
is a socila problem ! Jews were always proud of their orgin and beliefs. If they
were baptized on another religion, this can be sound like a membership, and they
cannot allow this.
I am sure that if this happened to us in the same way, we would act the same way as the did.
The issue is social related, not religious.
Best regards from Brazil.
I am sure that if this happened to us in the same way, we would act the same way as the did.
The issue is social related, not religious.
Best regards from Brazil.
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Elder Lance B. Wickman of the First Quorum of the Seventy with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints talks about the 1995 agreement not to submit list of names of Jewish holocaust victims to the practice of baptism for the dead.
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I agree that today we tend to over-sanitize things to the point where people...
The person that died barged into Rahimi's home with a knife. Rahimi in my...
"Nice girl, but about as sharp as a sack of wet mice." – Foghorn...
I wonder what would happen if christians tried to do the same thing in saudi...
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"One of the core tenets of Mormon faith is that the dead can be baptized INTO THE FAITH after their passing. Baptism of the dead evolved from the beliefs that baptism is necessary for salvation and that the family unit can continue to exist together beyond mortal life if all members are baptized.
Mormons trace their family trees to find the names of ancestors who died without learning about the restored Mormon Gospel so that these relatives from past generations can be baptized by proxy in the temple. For Latter-day Saints, genealogy is a way to SAVE MORE SOULS and strengthen the eternal family unit."
So it IS about making more "Mormons", not caring about Jews who died in the holocaust at all-- if they use a blanket approach, they can make sure their own butts are covered. It's not like lighting a candle to respect someone else's suffering, it's like starting a wildfire because you wanted the insurance money on your house.
What a bunch of selfish jerks.