Reader comments
Readers' forum: Support or shut up
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uum | 12:39 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I agree that the prop 8 vote was ok (and that gay activists are being
hypocritical) - but LDS Church leaders ask people to make informed decisions -
put up or shut up is not church doctrine. It is dissapointing when people dont
agree with leaders - but it is more dissapointing when they dont understand why
they do or dont. Faith is good but informed faith is better
GeeBee | 3:25 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Just because your God calls something a sin, doesn't give you license to
make hell on earth for the sinner. I'd rather err on the side of being
more Christian than on the side of what's pronounced from a pulpit.
Comments continue below
EdM | 5:44 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
This is the beauty of a democracy. People have the right to voice their opinion
even when others disagree. In a theocracy people don't have that right
because their government/religion has the right. The LDS religion says (as do
other religions) that their members have the right of free agency, the ability
to choose for themselves (and ultimately, to speak for themselves) what they are
going to do. The author here should be applauding those who spoke out against
what they see as discrimination towards family members who happen to be
homosexual and are seeking what they see as a right in our society: the right
to marry whom they want to. They are exercising free agency.
With that said, I favored Proposition 8. Now is the time for all parties to understand that the majority of Americans still see "marriage" as between a man and a woman. Most, however, ARE in favor of civil unions between partners. Just don't call it marriage. In California civil partners already, by law, have protections established for themselves. I am all in favor of this. Now is the time to heal and a time to move forward and move on.
With that said, I favored Proposition 8. Now is the time for all parties to understand that the majority of Americans still see "marriage" as between a man and a woman. Most, however, ARE in favor of civil unions between partners. Just don't call it marriage. In California civil partners already, by law, have protections established for themselves. I am all in favor of this. Now is the time to heal and a time to move forward and move on.
Milo P Otis | 6:05 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I oppose proposition 8 however; I believe that I am free to speak. As sick as
you may be or fed up, do not attempt to stifle my thinking or ability to speak
or anyone else�s. There was a war in Heaven and I'm
sure you would have been one of those who got sick and tired of those who choose
to follow a different plan nevertheless ALL were free to choose and speak.
Free Republic? | 6:14 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Don't they have right to voice their opinions as well? Not according the
church of Marvin, I guess.
Danny C. | 6:27 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I agree with your support of Proposition 8, but not of your statement that
opponents should "keep their mouths shut". Though I disagree with the
gay marriage supporters, I respect their right to assembly and free speech, and
no one ought to tell someone to just "shut up." Good Sabbath to you.
calm down | 6:50 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
most of those people are not really who they proclaim to be. Being dishonest is
acceptable behavior for these folks as they try to achieve their goals.
Anonymous | 7:38 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Mr. Carlsen, I am LDS and I vigorously oppose Prop 8. My highest duty is to my
own conscience, not my church leaders. And while I respect the church's
right to express an opinion, I hope they will respect my right to express mine.
Anything less would be unchristian and uncivilized.
Cambridge | 7:49 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Yes, let's follow the prophet. The prophet says we should be humble and
kind with respect to this topic. I'm not sure this letter squares with such
prophetic guidance.
Anonymous | 7:51 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Yup, poke a stick into hornets nest and then get upset when you get stung. Now
how does that make you look?
Mc | 7:59 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
It is ironic that in expressing frustration in such a contentious way the letter
writer has just invited more of what he's tired of. Let's just let it
die down and try to get along inspite of our differences. We don't need to
shut each other up, but we don't need to enflame each other either.
Grover | 8:18 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
This argument is going on between Christians, right?
Mike Richards | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Allegiance to whom, ourselves, our local church leader, our church president, or
God? What is the result of using agency, a pat on the head for being brave, or
the natural consequences that come from using that agency?
Everyman must be true to himself in his journey through life. Most who have joined a church judge the route that they walk by the doctrines of that church. Many of us who are members of the LDS Church measure our conduct against the council of our Prophets; but, we, just like any other person on earth must reconcile our free-will actions to whatever "standard" we follow.
So far, I have never found the council of the Prophets to be in opposition to the words of God, as written by other prophets. So far, I have never found the need to oppose that council
However, every person has the right to speak on any subject in any way that he deems proper. Listening to someone speak or reading someone's opinion shows us what was important to him at the moment that he spoke or wrote. A lifetime of speaking or writing shows who we follow and what we believe.
Everyman must be true to himself in his journey through life. Most who have joined a church judge the route that they walk by the doctrines of that church. Many of us who are members of the LDS Church measure our conduct against the council of our Prophets; but, we, just like any other person on earth must reconcile our free-will actions to whatever "standard" we follow.
So far, I have never found the council of the Prophets to be in opposition to the words of God, as written by other prophets. So far, I have never found the need to oppose that council
However, every person has the right to speak on any subject in any way that he deems proper. Listening to someone speak or reading someone's opinion shows us what was important to him at the moment that he spoke or wrote. A lifetime of speaking or writing shows who we follow and what we believe.
cowboy | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I wonder if the writer of the letter considered the fact the "shut up"
and do what you are told attitude, if it was really the policy of the Church
(which it isn't), was one of the misconceptions that hurt Mitt
Romney's candidacy.
t
t
Ernest T. Bass | 8:51 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
"keep your opinions to yourself" And therein lies the problem.
You can't have a rational thought in this Church, you must follow along at the clip of a cult or you'll be alientated and eventually forced out.
You can't have a rational thought in this Church, you must follow along at the clip of a cult or you'll be alientated and eventually forced out.
Ultra Bob | 9:09 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
When the leader of your church, who speaks for God, says something that you
cannot accept as the word of God, it is a good indicator that you are in the
wrong church.
Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Wow, 'shut up'. Fox news, and organised religion, at its' finest.
Disssent is important in our democratic society, and yet in the church? I hope
this comes around to bite the institution and its' leadership in the butt.
Jenny | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Marvin what happened to the right to choose, freedom of speech etc. I
don't care for the life style these people have chosen but their call was
for civil liberties not religious liberties. The Church (not the Gospel) got
involved in Politics therefore they should be paying taxes. Christ must be
shivering in his sandals to see how his gospel has been used as a weapon of
hate, evil etc.
Jim | 10:12 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Boy Im glad Im not in your club. I would hate to check my brain at the door
every time an issue comes up. No wonder McCain won in Utah, the master brain
dictated the vote.
bluegreengirl | 10:19 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Marvin is saying exactly what the Mormon Church is saying only more boldly. The
Church demands obedience and have never encouraged is members to
"question" the prophet. Talk about free will! And the members gladly
do it. One day some of them will realize that God is everywhere for
EVERYONE...some think you need to "belong" to a church to have
experience God other's know every experience IS God. Peace love and leaving
the church could be the true freedom many of you are looking for! Seriously, how
would being in church with MARVIN lift you up?
Don't Shut Up | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
"Support or shut up" is some of the most terrible advice I've
heard in some time. There are few things worse than knowing something is wrong,
and yet remaining silent about it. That is evil.
Wonderful | 10:24 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Wonderful comment - either support the church or shut up. Nice.
Darin | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
My goodness, Marvin - what an enlightened view! You'd make a great citizen
in a dictatorship.
Joking aside, I find it quite unsettling that you would let anyone (yes, even the church leaders) override your own conscience.
My friend Mike Richards, who has a post above, will certainly disagree with me, but I say that you have given us a fine example of just how dangerous religion can be: Follow, follow, follow; do what you are told - no matter what. Scary.
Joking aside, I find it quite unsettling that you would let anyone (yes, even the church leaders) override your own conscience.
My friend Mike Richards, who has a post above, will certainly disagree with me, but I say that you have given us a fine example of just how dangerous religion can be: Follow, follow, follow; do what you are told - no matter what. Scary.
For Prop 8 | 11:07 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
For all those people that are glad Prop 8 passed please leave all this talk
alone. All you are doing is giving those against Prop 8 something to fight
about.
Those for Prop 8 you won, you don't have to do anything right now. If those against Prop 8 get to the point they might get the law changed again then we must step up again. But until then lets just leave it alone.
Those against Prop 8 will not be able to continue with this hate for others as easily when it's on sided. If we don't respond, don't react, it will limit the hate they can give out.
All of us for Prop 8 say we are doing this to keep the meaning of marrige and that is it, then if that is the case we got it for now. So I see know reason for any of us to show any hate or act or talk in a hateful way.
So everyone please stop the continuation of hate on these comment boards.
Those for Prop 8 you won, you don't have to do anything right now. If those against Prop 8 get to the point they might get the law changed again then we must step up again. But until then lets just leave it alone.
Those against Prop 8 will not be able to continue with this hate for others as easily when it's on sided. If we don't respond, don't react, it will limit the hate they can give out.
All of us for Prop 8 say we are doing this to keep the meaning of marrige and that is it, then if that is the case we got it for now. So I see know reason for any of us to show any hate or act or talk in a hateful way.
So everyone please stop the continuation of hate on these comment boards.
utahmn | 11:38 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
"then shut up and let the inspired leaders lead us where the Lord inspires
them to go"???
Interesting!! I wonder if the followers of "Jim Jones" thought the same thing???
Interesting!! I wonder if the followers of "Jim Jones" thought the same thing???
Anonymous | 12:14 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Not everyone is afraid they will lose their soul if they question their leaders.
L. R. Clayton | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I disagree with the LDS Church's position, and I feel that as a religious
organization the church should not be involved in politics.
You can fundamentally disagree with gay marriage without actively trying to outlaw it. I don't see how the LDS Church can justify trying to take away the legal rights of another group while knowing full well their own history of persecution was caused by being denied the exact same legal rights (non-traditional marriage).
I do agree that all people should be respectful and civil towards others at all times. I also feel that those who were hurt by the church's actions have every right to openly speak their opposition to the church's activities. This is America, and when you start functioning as a political organization in America you should expect the opposition to speak their minds.
You can fundamentally disagree with gay marriage without actively trying to outlaw it. I don't see how the LDS Church can justify trying to take away the legal rights of another group while knowing full well their own history of persecution was caused by being denied the exact same legal rights (non-traditional marriage).
I do agree that all people should be respectful and civil towards others at all times. I also feel that those who were hurt by the church's actions have every right to openly speak their opposition to the church's activities. This is America, and when you start functioning as a political organization in America you should expect the opposition to speak their minds.
SteveD | 3:50 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I hate bomb throwers on these message boards, but I have to say, Marraige should
be a purely religious institution. Government Shouldn't have any business
in marriage, same sex or otherwise!! I ask; what does "married" have
to do with how much we pay in taxes?
SteveD | 4:11 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
I had an enormous feeling from the force! I sense a great change in the cosmos.
For the first time, I agree with Earnest T. Bass. Hallelujah!
However, this is the same ideology that comes from almost every organized religion in the world!
However, this is the same ideology that comes from almost every organized religion in the world!
get over it !! | 4:27 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
We as members of the LDS church have the right to vote and support whatever we
fill the need to as well and all others!
Its not our fault there are more PEOPLE (not only LDS members) that oppose gay marriage!
Just because we spoke out about it the "gay" community feels the need to lash out at the LDS church !
When in fact there were lots of other religions, ethnicities and etc. who oppose it!
Its not our fault there are more PEOPLE (not only LDS members) that oppose gay marriage!
Just because we spoke out about it the "gay" community feels the need to lash out at the LDS church !
When in fact there were lots of other religions, ethnicities and etc. who oppose it!
Anne | 5:54 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
What a hateful letter to the editor. Now, do you mormons see why there is so
much disgust of your religion and your culture.
Do you folks realize.... | 7:44 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
...that over the last two months there has not been a day gone by that a story
concerning gay vs. LDS has not been sitting in the Most Commented story section
of this website? Is there anything left to be said that hasn't been said?
Is there a gay person that is going to concede to the LDS view? No? Is there
an LDS member who is going to concede to the gay view? No? Well, how about we
all declare it a stalemate and get on with life already. We've got bigger
fish to fry, and nobody is doing anybody favors by rehashing the same arguments
over and over and over for months on end. Let's find something fresh to
"discuss." Really, isn't this getting a bit stale? Everyone has
made up their minds on where they sit on this issue, and the democratic process
has finished with it for this year. This dead horse has been flogged into
jelly, and people are still flailing away as if they have THE definitive
argument that has not come up a billion times already. Hate to tell them, but
it has. A billion times. Times three. Multiplied by eight.
Joe Moe | 8:00 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Some are making this more complicated than it needs to be. This letter is not
about whether Prop 8 was right or wrong.
The crux of this lies internally with Mormons, and it is this: if you believe Monson is a prophet, and speaks for God, then follow him, even if you don't fully understand. If you do not believe he is an inspired prophet, then why are you a member? Is it just an expensive social club for you?
The "shut up" is over the top. Clearly, the writer was wrong in suggesting that. People should say what they believe. The real question is, what do they believe, and why?
The LDS Church has and will lose some members over this (they lost some members when they allowed Blacks to receive the priesthood...good riddance, some would say). Losing members over doctrine is not new, nor unique to the LDS. It's all about what you believe.
The crux of this lies internally with Mormons, and it is this: if you believe Monson is a prophet, and speaks for God, then follow him, even if you don't fully understand. If you do not believe he is an inspired prophet, then why are you a member? Is it just an expensive social club for you?
The "shut up" is over the top. Clearly, the writer was wrong in suggesting that. People should say what they believe. The real question is, what do they believe, and why?
The LDS Church has and will lose some members over this (they lost some members when they allowed Blacks to receive the priesthood...good riddance, some would say). Losing members over doctrine is not new, nor unique to the LDS. It's all about what you believe.
kev | 11:24 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Baaaaaa
The Deuce | 11:46 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Joe Moe makes some very good sense in his coments. There will be people leaving
all faiths as they come into conflict with the doctrine and their own desires or
beliefs. I am not a Mormon and do not fully understand their internal conflict
with a prophet. However, it does seem to me that one of their basic beliefs is
continual revelation from God through a living prophet. Also, the Joseph Smith
story would not mean much if he did not question the many religions in his area
at the time and go and seek an answer from God. If you believe in a God you may
want to try this. If you don't belive in God then you are left to your own
power of reason and logic. The question is which one has the better chance of
being correct, God of man? Just a question.
Josh | 2:29 a.m. Nov. 10, 2008
If you believe Thomas S. Monson is a prophet and this is the Lord's true
church, then shut up and drink the Kool-Aid!
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