Brad Rock: Put Mad Mac in the BYU Hall of Fame


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  • Confused BYU fans
    Oct. 25, 2008 2:15 p.m.

    Detmer needed to be honored but let us not forget Jimmy Mac. THE BEST EVER!!

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 25, 2008 12:23 a.m.

    Brad Rock, I totally agree with you. In all of BYU football history, Jim MacMann, Steve Young, Ty Detmer and Robbie Bosco where by far the most exciting to watch and no one did better in the NFL than Jim MacMann. Steve was great alson.

  • Benched?
    Oct. 24, 2008 7:15 p.m.

    You say without McMahon there would be no Detmer. Your prob right. McMahon did give BYU the National respect. Which easily leads to the conclusion that Detmer played much better competition and still holds the records. IE: Florida State, Miami, Penn St, Colorado etc
    So when 66000 Cougar fans watch a BYU football game and glance up to the ring of honor, they WILL see Detmers #14 but not McMahons #9 regardless of whom you or I think is better.

    And if I remember correctly, Lavell asked McMahon to redshirt so he would not have to make a decision between Wilson and McMahon. Maybe he still goes with McMahon, but it also shows that McMahon was not that overwhelming QB stud that the Cougers couldn't put off a year.

    And of course, I do think Stockton is the best pure "point guard." If he wanted to be a better scorer, he could have as evidenced by his above 50% shooting percentage.

    Why don't we throw a few more comparisons that public don't agree with but the numbers say different.
    Marino over Montana, Farve and Elway
    Aaron over Ruth
    Dr. J over Jordan
    Sanders over Emmett
    Maddux over Clemmons, Koufax

  • re Detmer is benched
    Oct. 24, 2008 3:56 p.m.

    Not sure why you had to bring Stockton into this...but now I have to get into it. There are many who do not consider him the best point guard of all time...but a pretty elite group do. That group includes but is not limited to (in order of importance of course) Me, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, and Bill Walton. Ironically none of these guys are great communicators but they are all (especially Me) pretty knowledgeable in regards to basketball. And by the way...Stockton graduated. Not entirely sure why I said that but it is important that we don't equate Stockton and some of these lesser individuals. MacMahon and Detmer combined didn't have the consistency and staying power of Stockton. In fact he played on while all of their careers (Young's too) came and went. Don't mess with my basketball man!!!

  • Detmer is benched
    Oct. 24, 2008 10:19 a.m.

    The guy is not a better player than McMahon. The poster who said that McMahon would be on the field and Detmer would be on the bench, if they were playing in the same era is correct. John Stockton holds alot of records but many still don't consider him the all time best point guard in the NBA. If it wasn't for McMahon there would be no Detmer at BYU.

  • get over it
    Oct. 24, 2008 9:17 a.m.

    Maybe the University of Utah should put him in their Hall, and teach that school down south the act of forgiveness?

  • Re: Shaquille O'Neal
    Oct. 24, 2008 7:52 a.m.

    Being a Laker & BYU fan, thanks for the information about Shaquille O'Neal. Shaq is a much bigger name in sports than Jim McMahon! I'm glad to know that it was not "beyond" him to go back and finish in order to get inducted into LSU Hall of Fame. Why can't Jim?

    BYU is totally right on this! I support them in their decision. If Jim wants to be in BYU Hall of Fame then finish the degree. It was very clear in the one article that BYU is willing to work with him on this if he wants to do it!

  • Grasping
    Oct. 24, 2008 12:25 a.m.

    I agree the Heisman is political, I never gave that as a reason for Ty greatness, although he should have won both his junior and senior year.

    Your own reasons, "nobody did more with the offense, nobody held so many passing and total yard records as McMahon", well thats my point, nobody did and Detmer broke them all. Detmer holds pratically every single BYU passing and total yardage record by a large margin.

    The opposing defense applauds him? Of course their not going to applaud Detmer, he just handed them thier lunch all afternoon.

    And your comparison to Terrell Davis? I didn't care for Davis at all. But if the Denver scheme is so awesome, tell me how many RBs before and after TD rushed for 2000 yds? Zero, so maybe TD was pretty good in his own right.

    So if it is the system, McMahon played in the same system, thus McMahon would be a product of the system as well.

    Our memories may waver and believe what we want to believe, but the results never change. And as time goes on and people look back, the records will all point to Detmer.

  • McMahon is Better
    Oct. 23, 2008 10:04 p.m.

    Come on Now is right. McMahon was by far the better player not only as a QB but he also was a very capable punter. Detmer was a product of a perfected BYU offense just like Terrill Davis was a product of the Denver Bronco offensive scheme. McMahon made more happen with the BYU offense. Nobody has ever held so many passing and total than McMahon did when he finished at BYU. Detmer didn't have that many. What did Detmer do after he left that offense? On field perfomance....Detmer??? When did Detmer ever have an opposing defense applaud him after a game? Heisman trophy are as political as the BCS. Detmer's win made up for McMahon and Young getting stiffed. I can't believe that some of my fellow BYU fans fail to remember McMahon's greatness. Maybe I don't want McMahon in the BYU Hall of Fame...the fans don's deserve him.

  • Records
    Oct. 23, 2008 8:08 p.m.

    re: come on Now

    I could give you that McMahon was better if Ty would have barely broken his records. But it wasn't even close, Ty set the bar so high, that adding McMahon's best season to his totals would not even come close to Ty's marks.

    Maybe McMahon was physically better gifted, but "on the field" performance belongs to TY.

  • re: come on now
    Oct. 23, 2008 8:01 p.m.

    In your opinion.

    Records are meant to be broken and they were broken by Ty. And they were not the padded stats like Houston's Klinger and Hawaii two QBs. They were against top notch teams like the Penn St and Miami etc.

    Were talking college QBs, if you want to add the NFL, then clearly Young would be heads and shoulders over the others. But in college, it was Detmer.

  • Come on Now
    Oct. 23, 2008 1:41 p.m.

    RE: StudentAthlete | 11:55 p.m. Oct. 22, 2008

    Give me a break if Detmer and McMahon would've been at BYU Ty would have been riding the pine. Records are meant to be broken but McMahon was by far a better player and QB...Heisman or not. What did Detmer do in the NFL except watch a lot of game film? BYU was didn't get enough respect back in the late 70's and early 80's in the Heisman voting.

  • Southern CAL Porter Rockwell
    Oct. 23, 2008 1:16 p.m.

    I am an avid BYU COUGAR football fan and agree that Jim McMahon was one of the greatest college quarterback ever! However, Jim ...grow up, will ya?! Why all the bitterness? What example as a husband and father are you still setting for your family? Not a very good one. You are an adult so start acting like one and take responsibilities for your actions. Believe me, BYU fans from all over the world would love to see you in BYU's Hall of Fame. Stop acting like Uncle Rico from Napleon Dynamite! Just do it and graduate!

  • Troubleshooter
    Oct. 23, 2008 11:33 a.m.

    The thing I find interesting is that he was tolerated as long as he had something they (BYU) wanted. As soon as he was of no more value to them, they dumped him. If he was so bad, why didn't they allow him to go to school elswhere while he had some eligablility? Were they so hungry for a win? Who knows what would have happened and where he would have ended up if they had turned him loose sooner. Maybe that's what they were afraid of.

    Oct. 23, 2008 10:26 a.m.

    To the losers who claim McMahon a horrible example...grow up dude! Golden Richards is in the HOF...all Jim ever did was drink a couple of beers and set the College football world on its collective ear....Jim should have won the Heisman over Marcus Allen, but NY couldn't bring itself to honoring a school as obscure as BYU......He married a Stake Pres Daughter out of Calif who is drop dead gorgeous and raised two boys and 2 girls, holds celebrity golf tourneys for MS, visited the soldiers in Iraq, funnier than Leno....the guy is the BYU HOF! Reachout to him.....where is the olive branch....Jim is a great guy!

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 23, 2008 4:11 a.m.

    interesting that Jim doesn't seem to have a problem with this. BYU doesn't seem to have a problem with this. Why should we.. way too much time spent on comment blogs

  • Shaquille O'Neal
    Oct. 23, 2008 2:47 a.m.

    Few athletes could be considered a more deserving candidate for inclusion in a university athletic hall of fame than Shaquille O'Neal. He was a two time All-American at LSU, a two-time SEC player of the year, and he received the Adolph Rupp Trophy as NCAA men's basketball player of the year in 1991. He was also the NBA Rookie of the Year and an Olympic gold medalist. And yet, for years Shaquille O'Neal was kept out of the LSU Athletic Hall of Fame. Why? Because he had not graduated, and LSU would not change their hall-of-fame standards, which required a college degree, even for Shaq.

    But O'Neal returned to school, and in 2000 finished the requirements for a bachelor's degree. He was inducted into the LSU Athletic Hall of Fame later that same year.

    BYU is not alone is understanding that being a hall-of-fame caliber student-athlete requires more than athletic achievements; it also requires completing what a student goes to college to attain: a degree.

  • StudentAthlete
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:55 p.m.

    As a former student athlete, they are called student athletes, and thus have to excel both to be honored.

    And I think it is comical all the post declaring McManon as the best BYU QB when Detmer owns all the records.

  • Utah Fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:46 p.m.

    I enjoyed watching Jim Mcmahon play against Utah. If BYU can't put him in their Hall of Fame maybe Utah can claim him in its Hall of Fame for the amount of yards and touchdowns he threw against us.

  • Hold the Line BYU!
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:15 p.m.

    You have to be kidding. To bend the rules for a guy who broke his word and then mocked his alma mater? The guy has no class, fewer morals, and is a horrible example to our younger generations.

    He made a promise to follow the code and broke it. Thank goodness there is still BYU that will put standards above the game and morals above athletic achievement.

    If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

    Hold the line Cougars!

  • TucsonUte
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:46 p.m.

    There have been two BYU players I enjoyed watching in college and beyond--one was Steve Young and the other was Jim McMahon. It is a shame that McMahon is being kept out the BYU Hall of Fame. It is going to be wound that will never heal unless BYU steps up and reviews the situation again. There was one BYU Hall of Fame member who was arrested on DUI charges. Does BYU revoke a member if the standards faulter after induction?

  • Adam
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:20 p.m.

    Funny two non-members and catholics at that, Jim and Clay put BYU on the map. Is there that much bitterness at BYU and th LDS culture that you would not let him in. A little sad but you do what you need to do and obviously the Lord will judge you for your convictions. He was a great player folks and should be judged for that and nothing else.

  • Matt
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:07 p.m.

    To compare Jim to OJ well thats a pretty big stretch. He did us good and proud. Let the man in. Goodness where were you people when he brought the program to prominence. I'd like to hear Coach Edwards true feelings on this situation.

  • Gregg
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:51 p.m.

    How many LDS member are in the Notre Dame hall of fame? Jim just does not deserve it either! We have a little something called standards at BYU and within the Church. Jim has not lived up to those and therefore should not even be given a thought. He had his chances here to choose a better path but dismissed it and look at where he is now.

  • TO: Ute fan in MS
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:45 p.m.

    You prove once again that there really are no Yewt fans, only BYU haters. Thanks for confirming that for us.

  • Dave
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:42 p.m.

    to "Silly Comments" at 108pm who said: "Sorry U fans, more people care about Y football than any other team in the state."

    More people buy CD's by the likes of Britney Spears, T.I., and 50 Cent than any other artists in the county. That doesn't make them any good.

    More people watch American Idol than any other show, but it's still a load of crap.

    Just expressing the obvious.

  • Dandy Sandy
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:41 p.m.

    Do you have to be a mormon or better yet a mormon in good standing to be in the hall? Geezers people get a grip, the guy helped get us on the map! He should be in despite his short commings. I thing this is even rediculious discussing the obvious. Shame on BYU for not letting him in and if they did I would not be suprised for him standing them up at the ceremony. Disrespect at the upmost but this is the culture in provo and with the church.

  • Paul
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:28 p.m.

    We have standards and Jim does not. We as LDS stick to those standards and I for one believe he should have never been allowed to be recruited. My vote is NO!!

  • RE: Ute fan in MS
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:35 p.m.

    That a sad reason to be a ute fan, just because Jim McMahon is not in the hall. Give it time and he will be in the hall and then you can repent and come back to the cougar faithful.

    Go Cougars! Maul the utes!

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:21 p.m.

    How can they let someone in that does not fit the criteria?

    I am a huge BYU fan, a huge McMahon fan, I know Jeff Holland is a huge McMahon fan, I know that 99% of BYU fans are HUGE McMahon fans, but that does not make him eligible for the BYU Hall of Fame.

    So BYU inducts STUDENT-athletes? What's the big deal?

    McMahon will always be Huge in my book.

    McMahon knows what to do to get there. If he cares, he will.

  • Kwt
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:00 p.m.

    Wasn't he also famous for mooning someone while with the Bears. I realize that was while he was in the pros, but it sure embarrassed alot of us BYU Grads.

  • I like...
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:45 p.m.

    Jim but I take off my hat to BYU for sticking to their rules...

  • Then lets call it :
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:41 p.m.

    The Hall of Some Very Good Players.

  • californian
    Oct. 22, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    I dislike BYU as much as the next guy...probably more than most...but it is their hall of fame...so they make the rules. Simple concept but rarely understood these days. Everyone wants others to change to meet their demands...MacMahon got his career from going to quarterback U just as much as BYU benefitted from him! If he hadn' known that he would have gone to a different school...he was recruited!

  • Rich
    Oct. 22, 2008 5:29 p.m.

    Nobody's perfect, and I include the general authorities -- every single one of them. Yet we all must live by rules to achieve certain things. Still, I think the graduation requirement for BYU Hall of Game inductees should be changed. Maybe the requirement should be that the inductee took a full academic load for at least six semesters.

  • non-BYU-fan hypocrits
    Oct. 22, 2008 3:43 p.m.

    Why should non-BYU-fans even care who BYU includes in BYU's Hall of Fame?

    The only fans who should have any say in the matter are BYU fans.

    All others can keep their "self-righteous" criticism to themselves.

  • Jack from Ark
    Oct. 22, 2008 3:35 p.m.

    Lets see play good, dis the institution,get dad to dis the institution,get DN to dis the institution, agree to rules disregard the rules,sounds like what JM has done all his life. Hall of fame is multi faceted it is for those we hold in high esteem for the service they chose to give to the institution. I guarantee if you asked JM if BYU helped his career he would say no. But if it wasn't for BYU JM would be washing trays and flipping hamburgers as a non graduate. If BYU will help him meet the minimum criteria then he should accept that graciously.
    This man flouted authority and but the great help that Coach Edwards went out on ledges for all the time for him. He wouldn't be where he is today.

    I am glad it is not up to me if it were he would never get the award. The hall of fame is so much more than just being a good athlete.

    I to am a BYU graduate and am proud that I signed and lived by the Honor Code. I had a choice so did JM.

    I wish good luck to JM

  • No Honor for Jim
    Oct. 22, 2008 3:31 p.m.

    Jimbo's most famous quote is: "The best part about BYU was leaving it." He has other classic BYU zingers, as well.

    Jimbo has flaunted that fact that he routinely violated BYU's Honor Code while attending BYU. He brags about it. He flaunts it. I drank, I smoked, I ... You got the idea.

    The principle behind the Honor Code is that each person who attends the Y signs his name and agrees to live on his honor, that is, he agrees to live by the Honor Code.

    I don't think that a person who brags about violating the Honor Code has earned a place in BYU's Football Hall of Fame. Perhaps the Hall of Shame?

  • treatyman
    Oct. 22, 2008 3:25 p.m.

    what would Jesus do?

  • Re: Silly Comments
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:57 p.m.

    Hey silly comments,
    Enough of the self-righteous talk about BYU. This is exactly why so many people HATE BYU. How can you assume that more people care about BYU football than any other team? Are you saying more people care about BYU football than the Utah Jazz? I personally care about High School football teams more than I do many of the college teams. Get over yourself, BYU!!! Now I have stated the obvious.

  • P R C
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:51 p.m.

    Having Known and played with Jim, I believe he belongs in the hall. If BYU Doesn't like his off the field standards they should have never recuited him in the first place. Not everyone that goes to BYU is a Chior Boy. Let him in the hall for his on field play. Jim is a decent human being. Just because he doesn't live all of the BYU standards doesn't mean he isn't a good man. God will forgive who he will forgive, but we are required to forgive all men. Judge not...ect. ect. ect. It's time for we latter-day saints to take a look at our selves first, and then Let Jim In The Hall Of Fame!!!

    Oct. 22, 2008 2:47 p.m.

    I don't care what the arguement is? But Jim McMahon was the greatest football player to wear a football uniform in Utah! An arguement can actually be made that he may have been the greatest college player to have ever played the game! HOF or not, perhaps Jim is bigger than the HOF at BYU! To keep him out only deminishes the mission of such an honor for everyone else who has been fit to be inducted. I mean how would it feel to be a Hall of Fame inductee to the University of North Carolina Tar Heels, if the University refused to induct Michael Jordan? Say what you want about Jim off the field, but on it, he represented BYU with integrity and honor, and honorable of any HOF!

  • Cali Coug
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:42 p.m.

    If Jimbo needs three classes to graduate he should hit the books and get it done. He could probaly take the classes else where and transfer the units back to the Y. You only need a "C-" average Jim...do it for your kids if not for yourself. I believe Jim is a great QB and person, and I believe he'll do it when he is ready.

  • lht
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:12 p.m.

    Mr Negative (Rock) needs to find a good anti-anxiety med to help him sleep at night. And Jimbos daddy needs to realize his spoiled, arrogant, never-give-back-to-the-world-because-they-owe-me son CAN be in the hall of fame. But that would require Jimbo to actually do some honest academic work. Such a giving, kind, philanthropic man of integrity like Jimbo should relish making good after all his bad-mouthing, back-stabbing, ungrateful comments FOR NEARLY 3 DECADES about BYU. Maybe Rock and Jimbos daddy can have a good pity party over all this. Waah!!!

  • booboo
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:09 p.m.

    to rf: did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today? If there hadn't been the final touchdown, there wouldn't have been an extra point. Jim gets most of the credit...

  • Tarzan the crazy man
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:05 p.m.

    I wish the paper would interview Jim and see if he cares or not.

    Why has the paper not interviewed JM ?

    If he says no way I don't want to be in BYU's HOF it takes care of it, if McMahon says I would appreciate it then a door opens, maybe both are waiting to see if the other wants to make peace. If he does want in help him out to take the 9 credits online and move on. Call him, I am sure you can find the number.

  • They Don't Get It
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:02 p.m.

    BYU is its own worst enemy. It has never understood that to get respect you have to do more than simply take a stand; you have to take a stand that is fair and makes sense. Keeping Jimbo out of its HOF, just like yanking Chad Hardy's diploma, makes BYU appear petty and out of touch, not principled.

  • Mad Mac - YES
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:01 p.m.

    Jim McMahon was a great QB. Noting allowing him in the hall of fame is a joke. He put BYU on the map nationally (in a good way) and deserves to be recognized as the second best QB BYU ever had (next to Steve Young).

  • Lynn
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:56 p.m.

    1. MANY universities require you to be a grad. Most of them did not have the requirement in place at the inception of the University.
    2. It's not the NFL where you don't even have to finish high school.
    3. McMahan takes every opportunity to diss BYU. He could care less.
    4. BYU has offered to hold his spoiled, thankless, back-biting hand through the process of completing his diploma.
    5. Some athletes are givers. They give of themselves, their time, their talents to serving those around them. Jim McMahan is a taker. Always has been. Always will be.

  • Special treatment
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:54 p.m.

    McMahon doesn't deserve special treatment. He's been getting that all his life. Holmoe has extended the olive branch. All McMahon needs to do is reach out and accept it. He needs to complete the nine units and graduate--like Steve Young and every other hall of fame member.

  • Let it be
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:52 p.m.

    BYU is a great university. Jim McMahon is a great quarterback. Both mutually benefited from the relationship at the time. Both now want the relationship to be over. Let it be.

  • KansasCoug
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:49 p.m.

    Press: "Mr. McMahon, what did you like best about BYU?"
    McMahon: "Leaving."

    Jim McMahon is loving the attention, otherwise he couldn't care less about being inducted into the BYU Hall of Fame.

  • Sandperson
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:45 p.m.

    McMahon doesn't deserve special treatment. Holmoe has extended the olive branch. McMahon needs to finish his nine units and graduate--like every other pereson in the hall of fame.

  • YtxPat
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:43 p.m.

    Jim was great. Let him donate $2M to the school and they will give him a honorary degree and then place him in the hall. Call it tithing if you want.

    It sounds more like his father wants it more than Jim does anyway.

    Keep the rules as they are.

  • What standard?
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    The fact that we are talking about athletes like Simpson, Bonds, Cobb and other bottom of the barrel types to justify McMahon getting into the HOF explains BYU's position clear enough for me.

  • Why Not
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:29 p.m.

    RE: Why

    If McMahon "flaunted" the honor code why didn't the school punish him until after football season? He never pretended to be a saint. I graduated from BYU and wasn't impressed with the "honor" code. How honorable is it to tattle on friends and others? That's what you're expected to do. Maybe just maybe he's not the only football player at BYU to ever break the honor code. For his fathers sake I'd like the university to forgive past sins (he actually may have had a beer or two!!!) and let him see his son enter the BYU Hall of Fame. (immediate exaltation promised to all that enter)

  • Baker
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    Jim is like an investment whose value will NOT deminish. Some of you ask, what has he given to BYU before and since? The fact is he has given BYU notoriety& prestige that will never cease, as long as college football exists at BYU. His contributions are still evident and are primary in maintaining validity to BYU's football program, even through the Crowton years. The rest of the nation doesn't look at BYU football for it's honor code. The rest of the nation respects BYU football, partly due to McMahon's contributions, and as a result our values and honor code are demonstrated from a more practical and less preachy standpoint. The players and we as fans are watched and observed and we display what we believe. This publicity is sooooo valuable in establishing who we are as LDS members & BYU. People recognize Jim for what he is. His offerings to BYU, naturally, put him in a very elite group. His excellence needs to be acknowledged. Maybe split the HOF into two groups, athletic excellence and academic. Don't bunch them together as if they must always be akin. Otherwise, we should ask why pencil-neck Earnie the scientist isn't in there.

  • Bonds
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:18 p.m.

    I love how Rock says he is widely believed to have done steroids, and then later says that he is sure Bonds cheated. How is he so sure... don't get me wrong, I think he probably did too, but to say I'm sure. I don't think I could do that.

  • look in the mirror
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:17 p.m.

    Ute fan stop your lecturing and self righteous appointment of judge over the Y. Go worry about your own school which has PLENTY of problems itself.

  • Dave
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:16 p.m.

    Who in the world care about BYU Hall of Fame, or for that matter any Hall of Fame.
    Jim McMahon was no big deal, yes he played well but so what. BYU can put anyone they like in THERE HALL Of FAME.
    All this stuff about Sports is Bull, spent your time with the important things of life. Football is not LIFE.

  • uneducated complaints
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:15 p.m.

    Every institution has a right to establish its own requirements. And having a graduation requirement only makes sense for STUDENT ATHLETES. Is it the best rule, maybe not, is a good rule, hello of course. It's at lease worthy of consideration. At least there is one university in the land that has a backbone. To cave in to public pressure without discussion or considerion of the integrity of the institution lacks integrity. Hey AD eventually got his number in the rafters, McMahon will eventually get in too and he will be welcomed with open arms!

  • silly comments
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:08 p.m.

    Sorry U fans, more people care about Y football than any other team in the state. Guess I had to state the obvious

  • Threw and Through
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:07 p.m.

    Brad Rock's reasoning is intellectually dishonest. Barry Bonds cheated and McMahon didn't? In what universe is deliberately and repeatedly violating the Honor Code that he promised to uphold not cheating? McMahon helped the status of BYU football, but he had nothing but contempt for the university. He helped the football program for his own purposes (to enhance his standing with NFL scouts), not because he felt any allegiance to the school. Playing hard to win helps him the most.

    It was hypocritical to keep him in school as long as BYU did, I agree. But admitting him to the Hall of Fame, regardless of whether he graduates (and by the way, he was at BYU five years with all expenses paid for--plenty of time to become a legitimate student), would only compound the hypocrisy. He was a great football player, and he got the reward he wanted--fame and fortune in the NFL. He said, referring to BYU, "I couldn't get away from that place fast enough." This is why he doesn't care about BYU's HoF--he himself thinks it would be hypocritical for BYU to induct him, and hypocritical for him to accept it.

    He was, however, BYU's best-ever QB.

  • BYU Fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:06 p.m.

    Re jim McMahon Rule:

    You use the word Fact, were did you get your facts, your brothers friends cousins friend who went to the Y?

  • Predictable
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:04 p.m.

    It's as predictable as Dick Homer Harmon always writing a BYU article........when the Cougars flounder, then let's bring out anything about former Cougar players that we can think of.....

  • Bring Back MAC
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    BYU needs more people like "Mad Mac." This would be a refreshing change to BYU's self righteous attitude. The new Mac and Collie could be roommates. That would make for an interesting reality show.

  • Come on
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:52 p.m.

    too many of the people who place the Cougars players on a pedastal have no idea what many of the players actually do. I won't mention details but my best friend was a recruit and played there in the late 80's and there were things done on the recruiting trips that were as aggregious as anything Jim McMahon did. He's the only one who apparently didn't care about getting caught, but definitely not the only one who has violated the code, including some who are in the vaunted Cougar Hall of Fame. Please stop with your self righteous comments, it makes you look very bad.

  • The Traveler
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:49 p.m.

    Interesting what place sports has come to play in our lives. It used to be that a "good sport" included good character now it is all about wins and records. Sometimes I will not say that I am a fan because that definition includes behavior that is unbecoming to humanity.

    What should we use to measure and honor men and women - even for a student athlete I would hope our least consideration of what we give honor to be based solely on their physical accomplishments. One thing I like about BYU is that it expects both its students and fans at the game to behave honorably. Yes, I know, it is that hated holier than thou attitude that comes from those that would disrespect anything of honor.

  • Doesn't Belong
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:37 p.m.

    The past couple of years (since Bronco showed up) the team has established a very strong positive impact off the field. This is in line with BYU's mission. Jim McMahon did not project these core values off the field and therefore should not be in the hall of fame.

  • Ron
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:34 p.m.

    I don't care how many beers he drank, or rounds of shirtless golf, the number of times he flipped the bird to "Yewt Fans, or even if he passed one class at BYU? But I do KNOW that when he played football at BYU, he played better than anyone past or present ever has! You can keep him out of your HOF, but we all know that if we were talking Steve, Giff or even Ty, you would be inducting them without a degree! The rules run contrary to the standards you try to uphold! Eliminate the JIM McMAHON RULE and do the right thing! Do it for Us his greatest and your greatest fans, and pay tribute to the greatest football player ever to wear a BYU uniform, Jim McMahon!

  • Texas Cougar
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    Why does Jim McMahon care about being in the BYU Hall of Fame? He hated BYU while he was there, and I'd think that the important Hall of Fame would be the College Football Hall of Fame (which he's got). My uninformed guess is that he wants it because he currently can't have it.

  • Where's the whole story?
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:18 p.m.

    Several have mentioned that BYU expelled McMahon because they didn't need him anymore. Isn't it more likely that he, after using his eligibility, decided to flaunt the Honor Code more than he ever did before. After all, he knew he was a celebrity and was surely going to play in the NFL anyway. He no longer needed BYU so why continue going to a school whose rules he really didn't like in the first place? Plus...his rebel attitude was very appealing to the media...and he got plenty of media attention for his comments about BYU.

    I would be very disappointed if BYU made an exception to it's rules to allow him into the HOF.

  • byu a joke
    Oct. 22, 2008 12:02 p.m.

    byu is a joke and does a good job to embarrass the state of utah at all times

    keep up the good work.

    i wonder if the roy, utah native's superbowl win didn't impress byu either.

    i guarrantee if mcmahon was on the team this season they wouldn't be finishing 3rd in the Mtn West

  • Jim McMahon Rule
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:58 a.m.

    Fact: There are those in the hall that did not graduate
    Fact: The graduation rule olny came about after JM was done playing. When I say after I mean directly after.
    It is known as the Jim McMahon rule! BYU let go of your spite.

  • Your Mama
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:52 a.m.

    He should be in the hall. But who cares about BYU's Hall anyway? He is in the College Hall of Fame and that is obv. superior to just a single school.

  • Y doesn't care
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    Where is the BYU Hall Of Fame anyway? Is it really that big of a deal? Jim McMahon didn't graduate and BYU doesn't give a flying hoot who he is/was....... you don't graduate, you don't get in. If you have a problem then either graduate (doesn't he only need 9 more credits?) or forget about it cause it doesn't make much of a difference for BYU.
    This really isn't a big deal.

  • baishel
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:22 a.m.

    I served in the Bay Area and ate at his In-Laws every Sunday. The way they talked about Jim was awesome. It was fun to see them sit at the table and say, "How did Jim do today" and then talk about it. I talked to them a little about him, and they said he was the best father and husband they could ever want for their daughter. Come on BYU, put him in! I know the criteria, and his past antics, but he deserves it! I've been going to BYU games for about 30 years. I'll be happy when it's a done deal.

  • BYU
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:20 a.m.


  • BYUtah fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 11:10 a.m.

    I remember listening to a Paul Harvey radio commentary titled "What's a guy got to do". He listed an amazing series of passing records and then asked why this guy was not in Heisman trophy competition. That guy was Jim McMahon.

    I watched Jim McMahon play at BYU. I was in the stadium for the miracle comeback in San Diego. Yes, Jim was a bad boy by BYU standards. I have heard a number of stories of his antics and near arrests. But, he was a terrific quarterback and a fierce competitor.

    I watched an interview on a talk show where the host was trying to get him to badmouth BYU and he wouldn't. All he said was that it was a great football school.

    I support BYU and its standards. This is not a standards issue. No one has violated standards by not graduating.

    Jim deserves to be in BYU's Hall of fame graduation or not - so do Mo and Jason. The graduation requirement should be quietly removed. It has nothing to do with football. Academic achievment should be rewarded separatly.

  • Hypocritical
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:56 a.m.

    I agree with 19...Sounds like BYU overlooked all the honor code violations while JM played there and then as soon as the season was over...OUT YOU GO. It just seems at that point football was more important than maintaining standards. It just smells like a double standard to me. I agree that he shouldn't be in the HOF if he doesn't meet the criteria, but should he have really played at BYU in the first place?

  • Mac Fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    It's only 9 or so credits, and if he really were interested in pleasing his father and getting into the hall, I would think he would make the effort.

    I love the guy and think he was the best BYU QB ever, but this is the university's HofF. Sport's are the secondary reason for attending school. Education is the first.

  • Other School HOFs
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:43 a.m.

    IS BYU in the vast minority in requiring school graduation in order to make its HOF? Jimmy Mac's dad's letter alluded to that - anyone know if its true?

  • Tuffy Parker
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:40 a.m.

    How about this contrarian view I think BYU wants McMahon in the HOF much more than he wants to be there.

    BYU will gladly turn a blind eye to McMahons off the field antics and celebrate with relish an opportunity to induct him into the BYU HOF, if hell pick up the needed credits to graduate. He could do it sleepwalking if he wanted to.

    HOWEVER, I think this is just one more way for Mad Mac to give BYU a raspberry.

  • Scoobie
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    There is no doubt that Mac is the best and that he does belong in but, Mac is Mac and until he can swallow his pride it won't happen. All I can say is that if my own father were still alive I'd give up a little of my pride in order to finish a few things I started that my father tried to get me to finish..........just hope that when the time comes, which it will, that Mac can live with his choices.
    Cherish your father Mac...while you've still got him.

  • You guys didn't care
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:21 a.m.

    as long as he was winning games for you. honor code! Please!

  • JIll
    Oct. 22, 2008 10:10 a.m.

    Just graduate . . . then he meets the requirements, and THEN he has a case. Until then, he is not in.

  • Bryan
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:50 a.m.

    McMahon talks about the fact that he a Chicago Bear first and foremost. He is forgetting the only reason he was a Bear is BYU. What other school would have given him the stage to do what he did. There were not a lot of throwing schools in his day and BYU gave him that opportunity. Would he have starred at another school? Maybe. And maybe he would have ridden the bench. Jim, get your degree and Rock, leave it alone.

  • solution
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:42 a.m.

    Easy. BYU gives him an honorary degree and then he can be voted into the HOF. Everybody wins and Mr. Rock can sleep at night.

  • ZEBA
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    I think McMahon was the best qb at BYU, and Steve Young was the best NFL qb from BYU.

    IMO it makes sense for McMahon to be in the BYU hall of fame... But when has BYU been about making sense?

  • Former BYU student
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:09 a.m.

    To Jim and S Gawrys: you said it right. Since when is a rule not a rule. JM agreed to attend BYU and was given the same info that all other athletes are. He agreed on paper but had no intention to agree in person. Good quarterback, yes. Honorable student, no. BYU should have expelled him sooner only they gave him every chance to succeed both athletically and academically. JM chose to do what he did. Pride and pecularity don't mix. He made the "important" Hall of Fame. BYU stick to your standards!

  • Cranky Coug
    Oct. 22, 2008 9:00 a.m.

    Come on "Puke fan in MS", if Jim McMahon not being in the Cougar Hall of Fame is one of the many reasons your a Puke Fan, then I can only imagine the other pathetic reasons you are the "Puke fan from MS". Listen, Jim has one option GRADUATE! But since he is to prideful and lazy that might never happen... Does he deserve to be in there because of the great career he had at BYU -YES- but there are certain requirements that a school with academic integrety must inforce and I respect BYU for that.

  • Why?
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:59 a.m.

    Why would you honor anyone who flaunted BYU's honor code and is not worthy of any honor? If you think so, you don't know what he got away with. It was not as Rock said "an action after he used up his playing time at BYU. His flagrant acts finally caught up with him.

    Rock loves to look at all subjects with synicism.

  • 19
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:55 a.m.

    McMahon was definitely the best ever BYU quarterback and it is a shame that he is not in the BYU Hall of Fame. It is also a shame that BYU waited until after his last game to suspend him. What a lack of integrity on the part of the university (and I am a BYU grad who attended when McMahon did). They used him up and then booted him out. However, all Jim needs to do is enroll at virtually any college and transfer the credits to BYU (Is it six credits he needs?) He can then graduate and be admitted to the Hall. If Jim is unwilling to do so little to get this done, then it must not mean much to him. Of course, since it means a lot to his dad, he ought to do it for that reason alone.

  • Pride
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    It looks like both parties involved have major pride issues. BYU could extend a palm leaf towards JM and I think he'd come running given the proper invitation (similar to Adrian Dantley). JM could/should do his part too but neither party is being the bigger person. Perhaps the institution with its so called standards should be the bigger party, step up, forgive, and accept...that would show the higher law and standards in action. I think JM would reciprocate as well.

  • BZ
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:47 a.m.

    "Bonds doesn't belong in baseball's hall because he cheated to set his records, and McMahon belongs in BYU's because he didn't."

    Rock, as always SPOT ON!!!!!!

    Oct. 22, 2008 8:42 a.m.

    This reminds me of the same thing that Larry Miller and the Utah Jazz did to Adrian Dantley. Both McMahon and Dantley should have been in their respective halls of fame. Jim was a great Football player, maybe not the best role model at BYU but a BYU hall of famer non the less. Put him in and maybe his attitude toward BYU will change, either why this is one long time Cougar fan that thinks he earned it on the field!!!

  • requirements
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    I'm tried of people wanting to down grade requirements to get an award. If Jim wants to come back and graduate, I am all for letting him in. If he can't change his lifestyle to be admitted, then keep him out. A requirement is a requirement. Why don't we drop the requirement of actually being good in the sport???

  • Fact Check
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:33 a.m.

    It just so happens, I just went to the International Boxing Hall of Fame in Canastota, NY. I asked about Mike Tyson. He has not been inducted yet merely because he fought a few years ago. No fighter can enter the Hall of Fame until 5 years have passed without fighting.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:24 a.m.

    I love McMahon, but, remember, BYU was as good to him as he was for BYU. He will be in the Hall, if he complies with the rules.

    Jim has stated for 27 years now that he will not get his degree from BYU. It's very simple, take 2 classes and you will be in. In spite of all the nasty remarks he has made about BYU over the years.

    Stop whining and get your degree, you too Buck!
    BYU promoted Jim for the College Hall of Fame, if he were playing today, Jim would not qualify for that Hall either. They also now have a graduation requirement, which Jim avoided by a year or so.

    Jim's stubborness defies logic, take classes on-line and be done with it. This is the same obstinance which made Jim great, and it's also the reason he had a short career and did not follow Steve YOung into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. He defied coaches in the the Pros and beat his his body to a pulp.

    Just stop being the contrarian. It's there for the taking, do your part!


  • Perhaps
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:20 a.m.

    Brad Rock could found the "Please Jim Please" foundation. I personally would contribute the cost of one of the remaining 9 hours Jim needs to graduate. "Please Jim Please"

  • Brett
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:11 a.m.

    Brad, you seem a little arogant telling BYU what to do.

    The BYU Hall of Fame does mean more than the College Hall of Fame. It requires standards above a player's athletic accomplishments.

    At BYU the skill of the player has never been paramount. Colt McCoy would not be allowed to play at BYU if he did not promise to live the honor code. Doesn't matter how good he is.

    I really couldn't care less if he's in or out. But you are you to tell the university what to do?

  • byu cougar fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 8:00 a.m.

    i would like to see jim not to have the right to bve there because of his atitudes he has a very bad problem

  • Mike R
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:43 a.m.

    BYU oould humble themselves and put him in. Jim could humble himself and take the necessary classes on line and graduate. Too much pride all around.

  • Psycho
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:41 a.m.

    RE: Anonymous 5:51 a.m.

    "BYU is a peculiar insitution." I'm sure you also thing we're "peculiar people." Great, we're a bunch of weirdos and BYU is full of nerds. McMahon brought more positive attention to BYU and the LDS church than a thousand missionaries could do. (as did Steve Young) Can't we just recognize him for the great things he did for BYU while playing football. I find it "peculiar" that BYU won't recognize one of the greatest athletes to ever play for the school.

  • McMahon Fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:33 a.m.

    I am a fan of Jim being recognized for his accomplishments by BYU and being inducted into the Hall of Fame; however, the graduation rule has been in place prior to McMahon taking the field and should continue to apply. Jim McMahon should do what he needs to do to graduate and the Honor is his. BYU should not change the rule.

  • Love McMahon, BUT...
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:33 a.m.

    ... what's he given back to BYU since he left? And what beyond sports did he contribute to BYU while he was here?

    While I agree he was one of the best BYU QBs ever, I can understand the institutional reluctance to honor him. He gave us some wonderful sports memories, then trashed BYU on his way out the door. It was pretty clear he wasn't supporting BYU's standards or ethics while he was here.

    I ask again--what's he given to BYU, then and since, *besides* sports memories? Fair question.

  • Dr. J
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:30 a.m.

    Few will know of the lows that McMahan stooped to while at Cougerville. In the end though, he was just a guy that took up a couple of valuable years that Steve Young or another QB could have been playing--they, like McMahan would have had records too. He wasn't a difference maker at BYU, the difference was already made.

  • RockOn
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:24 a.m.

    Oh Brad, what sycophantic falderall. This is NOT the football Hall of Fame... Mac would be a shoe in. It is the College Football Hall of Fame for graduates of BYU. It is to showcase college-athletes. Mac only half qualifies. He qualifies on the football or athletic side but not on the college academic side.

    It begs the question: if McMahon had focused on studies would he have been as good on the field? We'll never know, but, BYU can give him a Mulligan if he simply goes on line, takes the few classes he needs and he can enter through an elongated and pampered hallway into the Hall.

    He's a jerk, so, he won't.

  • Olive Branch
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:23 a.m.

    Jim McMahon's greatest attribute was his never say die attitude; it was his example and determination that made the Miracle Bowl possible. Many other players contributed, but it was Jim's leadership that created the spark that led to one of the most memorable events in BYU sports history.

    It's that same attitude that's keeping Jim out of the BYU Hall of Fame -- refusing to lose. In a way, he's being just as stubborn about maintaining his "standards" as BYU is.

    BYU doesn't need to lower it's standards, it just needs to extend an olive branch to Jim; offer an apology, tell him they want him in their Hall and work with him quietly, behind the scenes to make it happen.

    It's been almost 28 years; it's time to bury the hatchet.

  • RichM
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:22 a.m.

    You want the University to compromise and change the rules. This guy has spent his whole life wanting the rules changed for him. All he has to do is get the 9 credit hours (compromise) and the pressure would then really be on the University. It's a great rule because they are all STUDENT athletes. Just because MONEY has changed the whole NCAA picture is no reason to change this rule. I wish each one of them would get their Degree.

  • BYU Fan
    Oct. 22, 2008 7:11 a.m.

    Kragthorpe, how can you say McMahon wasn't juiced? I am not saying he was, but during that era of college football many players at top programs were juiced and at the pro level as well. I trust that BYU was a program that policed itself and didn't let steroids into the locker room, but I'd be surprised to learn that BYU was 100% clean during that period.

    As for McMahon in the BYU Sports Hall of Fame, it has different standards than the College Football HOF. I think that is great although I wish those that produced on the field would finish what they started and complete the last requirement and get that degree.

  • SoCalMtnCougar
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:55 a.m.

    If the Athletic Hall of Fame exists to recognize outstanding BYU athletes, then McMahon deserves to be in the Hall. If the school wishes to recognize students for their academic contributions, then set up another Hall of Fame. My wife and I are BYU grads, so are two of our children and we have no problem seeing Jim in the Hall of Fame. BYU certainly gets the recognition every time McMahon's name is mentioned, so give him his due. It takes NOTHING away from BYU by giving him the honor he deserves.

  • Hall of Great Players
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:39 a.m.

    There's your title, Brad. For example, Jeffrey Dahmer is "famous" and performed some "incredible" things so let's put him in some kind of hall of fame.

    Yeah, Dahmer is an extreme, but Jim McMahon was also extreme. Oh wait, not that type of extreme. He was a GREAT player for BYU, probably one of the very best, if not the best, so he belongs in the Hall of Great Players at BYU.

    Yet, I don't consider his exploits off the field, and his contempt for the Honor code, recognizable as a standard of excellence at BYU. He was great in his performances as an athlete. I commend him for that and so he should be recognized. Am I comparing him to Dahmer, of course not. Is McMahon famous? Without question.

    Easy way to get into the hall of fame. Graduate! So he was conveniently booted from school after eligibility ended, shame on the administration, but then again, maybe Jim made some choices then that forced the administration to act.

    If honor and integrity aren't part of the issue, then by all means, let's get Jim into the Hall. You have my vote, because he was GREAT as a player.

  • Jim
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:37 a.m.

    That should do it. Everyone was just waiting for Brad Rock to opine on this and now he has put the case for McMahon over the top. Nevermind that McMahon himself hasn't asked to be honored by BYU or that he consistenly bad-mouthed BYU during and after his experience there or that he dismissed, while there, most of the standards he had agreed to live. I have an option. Let's create a new Hall of Fame category to fit his situation (perhaps Hall of Fame for Great former BYU athletes who hate BYU) and then wait for him to indicate an interest. Until then, he just doesn't seem to fit the profile and the standard seems pretty reasonable for a unique school like BYU. If you don't like the standard, well, that's too bad. Life is difficult.

  • S Gawrys
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:17 a.m.

    When I was younger I loved JM. He was the best. I still look back with fond memories, but lets stop going after BYU over the Jm legacy. Jm was the kind of dude that acts obnoxious and gets laughs at everyone else's expense. He was funny though. I think BYU has paid the price for JM actions not the other way around. Sure he helped the school win games and we all love to point out how he was expelled following his final season, but perhaps it would have been unfair to the coaching staff and players to boot him sooner.

    Additionally, JM wants nothing to do with BYU. He never has. He is a Chicago Bear and he wants to keep it that way. I never thought I would say this but BYU is not the bad guy. JM is the bad guy on this issue. If Mac wants to get in the HOF then he should make it right with BYU (publicly). But he won't.

    Just an opinion from a BYU Alumni, a former BYU athlete, and a big JM fan.

  • Change it
    Oct. 22, 2008 6:09 a.m.

    BYU should change the requirements. It is a football hall of fame not an academic hall of fame. There has never been a better leader than Jim McMahon at BYU. Much of his antics are misconstrued and have become legend or urban myth. Jim is a good guy who not only was a great player but still continues to support LDS missionaries in his home from time to time. He needs to be in the hall of fame at BYU... He is in mine.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2008 5:51 a.m.

    BYU is a peculiar institution and should remain that way, even if its students must conform to be accepted.

  • Ute fan in MS
    Oct. 22, 2008 5:29 a.m.

    Mad Mac should have been in the BYU HOF years ago. This is one of many reasons I'm a Ute Fan. Come on BYU get a clue, he was a great QB and one of the most exciting players ever to play at the Y.

  • rf
    Oct. 22, 2008 5:23 a.m.

    Great article and whether I believe that Mad Mac should be in the hall is irrelavant. However I do take umbrage that he threw the winning touchdown.
    As I recall he threw the tying touchdown. The point after won the game. The game would have ended in a tie if the kick would have been missed.
    I know it's a little thing but gee whiz Rock get it right. After all you are a reporter. Never mind I have watched over the years how ALL reporters change what we see and hear. Have a great day.

  • The ball's in his court
    Oct. 22, 2008 5:12 a.m.

    He can be named to the hall of fame if he meets the requirements. He can graduate. He's been offered help to do so. He doesn't want it, don't give it to him.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 22, 2008 2:22 a.m.

    If we change the rules to allow McMahon in, and it means we also have to allow Buck, I vote the rules stay as they are.

  • Leonard
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:52 a.m.

    I agree -- good point

  • My, My
    Oct. 22, 2008 1:46 a.m.

    I love the Mad one. All time best college qb ever. Any one who disagrees never saw McMahon play. But he himself has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't care if BYU puts him in or not. He would only have to take 1 semester of BYU independant study (no honor code required) to graduate, but he is admittedly unwilling to do so. He was reported in last weeks D-news as asking his dad to just let it go and move on because he himself already had.

    I don't hear anyone at BYU denigrating Mac, his name is still all over the record books and when people list the great ones, his is usually the first name spoken, ahead of Young and Detmer.

    Plus you must remember, this is BYU. If you think they are going to lower their standards and expectations in any way while Bronco is on watch, you are dumber than Gary Crowton.

    Is it a shame that two stubborn sides can't work out a compromise? Perhaps. But Mac is happy and BYU is happy and neither one is likely to give in, so ya'll had better get used to the status quo.