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Jewish family makes peace with LDS baptism
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Tolerant | 4:45 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Why can't all people learn to be tolerant of others' beliefs like this
person did (including LDS people). I am LDS, but in my home growing up we had
MANY exchange students from all over the world live with us. If they went to
church with us, then we went to church with them. In other words, the best way
to learn to be tolerant of others' beliefs is to get to know that person
and WHY they believe that way. That is what this Jewish lady did with her
cousins. It's a GREAT ARTICLE.
Indiana | 5:36 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I hope Manya reads these comments because I find no other way to express my deep
gratitude for this story. It is lovely. I hope many others will learn the
valuable lessons contained in this story. Baptisms for the dead are done out of
love for family. There is not force or coercion. There is only love and
choice. I am so happy Manya chose to forgive, accept and to love. Thank you
Manya for a great and thoroughly enjoyable story!
TexanUt | 5:41 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Its all smoke and mirrors.Religion overall is much abused by all faiths.
Comments continue below
Shar | 5:55 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
No ones fate is sealed when they are baptized after a person has passed away.
They have the right to accept or reject the gospel.
Sharon | 6:12 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
The statement" Fated is sealed" is not correct. Every person that is
baptized after they have passed away has the right to accept or reject the
gospel!
Wonderful | 6:15 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Puts a nice human touch to this issue.
metamoracoug | 6:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I'm amazed that this article originated in the Chicago Tribune, the
pinnacle of sensationalistic journalism.
More importantly, thank heaven for this wonderful individual who sees, not divisiveness, but unity in mutual respect for each other's religious beliefs.
More importantly, thank heaven for this wonderful individual who sees, not divisiveness, but unity in mutual respect for each other's religious beliefs.
andrejules | 6:35 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
This is a wonderful, sensitive and thoughtful article about what is for many a
very difficult subject.
Tim | 6:44 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Whenever i hear people talk about baptism for the dead on radio or tv i always
wish they would make the point that the author does in this article, they still
have choice. I'm grateful that this was pointed out by the author. I hope
many people read this wonderful article and understand the author's point.
Wonderful Story | 6:45 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
This was absolutely fantastic. What a thought-provoking lesson of
understanding. Thanks to the author and to the Deseret News for reprinting this
for the rest of us.
What a beautiful story | 7:03 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Thank you for publishing this. This is the kind of religious dialog that should
be taking place in our country. We might not agree on each other's
religious beliefs and practices, but if we let faith divide us, it will be to
our own demise.
Eugene | 7:16 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
What a great story!! Yes, I surely understand why non-LDS would be shocked to
hear about this doctrine of baptism of the dead, but the article points out that
those who have passed on can choose not to accept it. It is definitely an
offering of love and never done as a way to offend our non-LDS neighbors.
I really appreciate the author's tolerance and understanding since the Church has never ever taught me to be anything but try to be a good neighbor, citizen, parent and friend. When I personally don't measure up (like all of us fail at some point), the Church's teachings are there to help me get up and try again.
Tolerance is one of the bedrocks of Christian values.
I really appreciate the author's tolerance and understanding since the Church has never ever taught me to be anything but try to be a good neighbor, citizen, parent and friend. When I personally don't measure up (like all of us fail at some point), the Church's teachings are there to help me get up and try again.
Tolerance is one of the bedrocks of Christian values.
Bear Laker | 7:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I enjoyed this story because it makes me determined to be more open minded about
other religions. Manya was very balanced in what she wrote about the Mormon
church and accepting of a practice by Mormons that at very least is suspect to
other religions. If we all had attitudes toward others, including me, we would
all get along better.
You are a real class act | 7:28 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I pray that those of us who are LDS can be as kind to, and understanding of,
other faiths as you have been to ours.
N. Gauld | 7:41 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
As I read this story I could feel the deep and thoughtful concern on the part of
the author and his family. The reasons behind actions and feelings on both
sides are beautifully explained. This is a wonderful opportunity to learn and
share with others whose views may differ. Being LDS, I do all temple ordinances
for deceased family members with the hope that my ancestors will be open minded
and open hearted, and know that I wish only to offer them a choice. I will
still love them if they choose not to accept what I so dearly love.
Clint C. | 7:47 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
This is the best article I have read that details the LDS perspective on the
doctrines behind baptism for the dead and the power of "choice" that
individuals have about accepting religion.
I also appreciate the author sharing her family story in a very personal and tender way. I have attended Jewish Shabbat dinners in England, visited Jerusalem during my college days, and served my LDS mission in New York City. I have a great love and respect for the Jewish people and their strong families. I admire the devotion that they have to their faith and families. This was an excellent article to read.
I also appreciate the author sharing her family story in a very personal and tender way. I have attended Jewish Shabbat dinners in England, visited Jerusalem during my college days, and served my LDS mission in New York City. I have a great love and respect for the Jewish people and their strong families. I admire the devotion that they have to their faith and families. This was an excellent article to read.
from Arizona | 7:55 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Thanks for that heartwarming story!
Bruce | 8:17 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
What a gesture of love for your Mormon cousins. What a well written and accurate
article about Mormon faith. I love that we can disagree and still love each
other in families--and even in religions too.
TMONEY | 8:21 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
A very well written and accurate depiction of the mormon doctrine of proxy
baptism.
Thank you
Thank you
John Pack Lambert | 8:22 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Forced baptisms have no relevance to the Holocaust.
Many of the people killed in the Holocaust were baptized Christians. It was a racial, not a religious persecution, although that word is inadequate to describe the horror.
To try and use it as a club to attack others religious practices is a misrepresentation of it and the memory that should be associated with it.
Many of the people killed in the Holocaust were baptized Christians. It was a racial, not a religious persecution, although that word is inadequate to describe the horror.
To try and use it as a club to attack others religious practices is a misrepresentation of it and the memory that should be associated with it.
SD Blue | 8:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
What an amazing story. To bad not everyone can except the love it shows. But we
do have free agency and I can respect that.
Humbly Yours | 8:35 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Very interesting and well written article. As a devout Latter-Day Saint, I felt
the author spoke fairly and accurately of our beliefs. I couldn't have
explained it better.
This is an article I would recommend to any non-member interested in understanding our practice of baptism for the dead.
Surely, it is a "strange and peculiar" practice, but true and right and good non-the-less...
This is an article I would recommend to any non-member interested in understanding our practice of baptism for the dead.
Surely, it is a "strange and peculiar" practice, but true and right and good non-the-less...
Prairiefire | 8:40 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I appreciate this writer's attitude and the attitude of her family members
who recognize the loving intent in certain practices, even if they do not
believe.
The opposite view has always puzzled me. What is the nature of their non-belief, when non-Mormons object to posthumous baptism, or when Protestants object to their Catholic ex-spouses having the legally dissolved marriage spiritually annulled by church authorities? If they don't believe the religious practice has any effect, I wish I could understand why they object.
The opposite view has always puzzled me. What is the nature of their non-belief, when non-Mormons object to posthumous baptism, or when Protestants object to their Catholic ex-spouses having the legally dissolved marriage spiritually annulled by church authorities? If they don't believe the religious practice has any effect, I wish I could understand why they object.
Thank you | 8:42 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Thank you for this wonderful article. I am LDS and have been a part of doing
baptisms for the dead. I have always felt it was a blessing to give these people
a choice, after death, as to what they can do. It is refreshing to see one of my
friends of another faith see this as our best wishes and not us trampling on
their beliefs. Thank you again.
rachel | 8:54 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Wow. It's amazing what willingness to look into something, to look at the
other side of the story, can do for uniting us as children of God, and families.
Very thoughtful.. | 9:07 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
this is a well written and thoughtful piece. Thank you for your insight, perhaps
I have been wrong about my feelings toward the LDS faith and their motives.
Barbara Miller | 9:40 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I love this article. The writer encapsulates baptism for the dead, the intent of
the LDS people and the spirit of acceptance beautifully. I hope she gets to see
her family reunited and united when she is once again in her grandfather's
warm embrace.
Thank You | 9:43 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
What a wonderful article! Not only does it discuss the doctrinal belief of
posthumous baptisms, it also discusses how these baptisms don't preclude
one's ancestors from still making their own choices. Thank you for writing
such a personal, detailed, and accurate article!
Well done | 9:49 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
What a well written and moving story!
Robyn Wallwork | 9:55 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I loved reading this article. I, too, believe anything done out of love is the
right thing to do. And by knowing how much your cousins loved your grandparents
makes all the difference. I am LDS and have Catholic in-laws. I have no problem
when they have offered a mass for my deceased parents. I love the fact that they
remember them and are willing to make that loving gesture. Thank you so much for
your insights and your willingness to keep peace in your family.
wonderful article! | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Only a matter of minutes before the trolls come to pollute the scene.
How pleasant | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
What a great attitude. This is what the spirit of love is.
Mormon Guy | 10:42 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Well said. Thank you. I hope I can be as understanding of others as you are.
Ken | 10:54 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Very nice article. I am a practicing Mormon who can certainly understanding the
feeling of presumption and arrogance people not of my faith would have towards
the idea of baptisms on behalf of dead people (particularly THEIR dead kin).
And yet I appreciate the author's intellectual open-mindedness in saying she can see how I as a Mormon would never presume that my efforts on behalf of departed dead could ever force someone into Mormonism or any other commitment.
Good article.
And yet I appreciate the author's intellectual open-mindedness in saying she can see how I as a Mormon would never presume that my efforts on behalf of departed dead could ever force someone into Mormonism or any other commitment.
Good article.
Stephen | 10:55 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
The caravan is moving on. A blessed people we are and everyone is begining to
realize our stature. What a wonderful article.
Beautifully Written | 10:56 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
This writer has a talent for making the global personal and getting to the heart
and soul of the matter. Many of the LDS faith would be hard pressed to present
such a thoughtful description of this doctrine in application.
Well written | 10:58 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Well crafted. This was a very fair essay.
Eric M. Jackson | 12:11 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Wonderful piece. Very inspiring. Choice and accountability are the hallmarks
of God's plan. We can only become accountable when we have choice. It is
in the excercise of choice that we receive blessings. We should want people to
have the opportunity to receive blessings. It is our expression of love and
respect for them. Thank you for sharing those beautiful thoughts.
Anonymous | 12:12 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Inspiring! I hope the LDS show as much understanding towards others as this
fine woman does of the LDS.
Keith | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
With all due respect, just a couple questions to my LDS friends because I'm
curious and would like to be educated.
1- If everyone needs to be baptized in order to achieve salvation, what happens to those who aren't baptized by proxy? For example, maybe someone in a remote Amazon tribe, which has no contact with the outside world, and no one knows their name. What happens to them>?
2- If God is perfect, couldn't he just save people based on their life? Why would he need other people to perform a ritual on their behalf? In other words, why is this even necessary?
Thank you for your time. DNews, thank you for not censoring your comments and printing this.
1- If everyone needs to be baptized in order to achieve salvation, what happens to those who aren't baptized by proxy? For example, maybe someone in a remote Amazon tribe, which has no contact with the outside world, and no one knows their name. What happens to them>?
2- If God is perfect, couldn't he just save people based on their life? Why would he need other people to perform a ritual on their behalf? In other words, why is this even necessary?
Thank you for your time. DNews, thank you for not censoring your comments and printing this.
Matt | 1:14 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
It is time and we are coming into our own with acceptance and understanding by
the people of the world. I have read a few articles like this a it is truly a
blessed time for the Church. The stregnth we provide to others is outstanding.
People are recognizing the truth of a just and chosen people. Great article and
it proves th church is pushing on and is the conerstone of all Christianity.
Ronnie Bray | 1:19 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
To Keith:
QUESTION 1:
It is true that baptism is, according to Jesus, essential to salvation.
I take your point about inaccesible peoples, and add that the same goes for the many millions of souls that have lived and died on the earth without having heard of about Jesus the Christ, and thus have been denied the opportunity to be baptised in his name as an essential step towards full salvation.
The Bible has the answer, although it seems that with some notable exceptions, only the LDS believe what is written and actually practice salvic rites for the unbaptised dead.
So, the provision has been made that those who have died, as in your excellent example, will not be unknown during the Millennium, and during that time, vigorous temple activity will extend and afford all who so desire the opportunity denied them on earth by the circumstances of their location and the time period during which they were born, lived, and died.
Question 2:
God is perfect, and in his perfection he has designed a plan of salvation for humanity in which an individual must be a willing participator in the work of his/her own salvation by exercising moral agency.
QUESTION 1:
It is true that baptism is, according to Jesus, essential to salvation.
I take your point about inaccesible peoples, and add that the same goes for the many millions of souls that have lived and died on the earth without having heard of about Jesus the Christ, and thus have been denied the opportunity to be baptised in his name as an essential step towards full salvation.
The Bible has the answer, although it seems that with some notable exceptions, only the LDS believe what is written and actually practice salvic rites for the unbaptised dead.
So, the provision has been made that those who have died, as in your excellent example, will not be unknown during the Millennium, and during that time, vigorous temple activity will extend and afford all who so desire the opportunity denied them on earth by the circumstances of their location and the time period during which they were born, lived, and died.
Question 2:
God is perfect, and in his perfection he has designed a plan of salvation for humanity in which an individual must be a willing participator in the work of his/her own salvation by exercising moral agency.
Dancing Poetry | 1:32 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Dear Keith, I will take a stab at answering your questions. The 1st asks about
remote people who no one has contact with to know about. God knows about them
and will see that the information is made available during the Millennium
through revelation. No one will be overlooked. As to the 2nd question, the
scriptures tell us we must be BORN AGAIN (baptism) to enter the Kingdom of
Heaven. So even our Savior, Jesus Christ, who was perfect set the example for
us, who are imperfect to follow.
RE: Keith | 1:43 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Point 1:
Everyone who didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life will have that oppotunity in the next.
Adn they will all have a proxy baptism done on their behaif.
This is why The LDs put such premium on genealogical work, and work for the dead. There is just so much to be done.
And it must be all done for all who have lived.
Unfortunately most of it will have be done in the "Millenium" the period after Christs return.
Point 2:
there are certain ordinances that must done in order for one to enter the hightest of degree of glory, that is to live heavenly father again, and mormons, the LDS, are taught baptism is the first, the gate ordinance for that.
"Save" is intersting term, and you would have to be more descriptive.
Those who do not accept the "LDS" baptism but the gospel of Jesus, will be "saved", they will recieve glory and existance with Jesus, akin what they are expecting now.
They Just don't recieve full glory and life with the Father.
This may be much more mormon doctrine than non-belivers may be able to understand, but I hope it helps.
Everyone who didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel in this life will have that oppotunity in the next.
Adn they will all have a proxy baptism done on their behaif.
This is why The LDs put such premium on genealogical work, and work for the dead. There is just so much to be done.
And it must be all done for all who have lived.
Unfortunately most of it will have be done in the "Millenium" the period after Christs return.
Point 2:
there are certain ordinances that must done in order for one to enter the hightest of degree of glory, that is to live heavenly father again, and mormons, the LDS, are taught baptism is the first, the gate ordinance for that.
"Save" is intersting term, and you would have to be more descriptive.
Those who do not accept the "LDS" baptism but the gospel of Jesus, will be "saved", they will recieve glory and existance with Jesus, akin what they are expecting now.
They Just don't recieve full glory and life with the Father.
This may be much more mormon doctrine than non-belivers may be able to understand, but I hope it helps.
samhill | 1:44 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
In addition to the amazingly warm and generous spirit evoked by this article, I
was extremely impressed by how exceptionally well written it is.
It seems to me to be an excellent example of very substantial intellectual content presented in a concise, succinct and eminently accessible style.
My congratulations and thanks to Manya.
It seems to me to be an excellent example of very substantial intellectual content presented in a concise, succinct and eminently accessible style.
My congratulations and thanks to Manya.
re:keith | 1:57 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
As much as can be done will be done pre-millennium.
Short answers:
During the millennium the work in the temples will continue and ALL will have a chance to accept or reject. This means that everyone that ever lived on this planet will have their work performed. More hapens in the millennium that just temple work, but that is a significant part of it.
God is perfect. Why did jesus have to be baptized wince he never sinned and there was nothing to repent of? He showed us that the ordinances of the gospel need to be fullfilled by us. It shows faith to be willing to be baptized and confirmed.
I suppose it is not unlike the difference betwen being maried and living together. The former shows a committment and faith in the relationship. An outward act has to be performed.
My $0.02
Short answers:
During the millennium the work in the temples will continue and ALL will have a chance to accept or reject. This means that everyone that ever lived on this planet will have their work performed. More hapens in the millennium that just temple work, but that is a significant part of it.
God is perfect. Why did jesus have to be baptized wince he never sinned and there was nothing to repent of? He showed us that the ordinances of the gospel need to be fullfilled by us. It shows faith to be willing to be baptized and confirmed.
I suppose it is not unlike the difference betwen being maried and living together. The former shows a committment and faith in the relationship. An outward act has to be performed.
My $0.02
Re: Keith (from sulla) | 2:09 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Quick response:
1. Souls exist after death. Mormons believe our dead do missionary work among all those souls, wherever/whenever they lived. During the "Thousand Years of Peace" the barriers between living and dead will be thinner, and we'll be made aware of any and all who wish to be baptized. Our temples will be VERY busy during that time, with tens of billions of potential baptisms.
2. Certain classes of people don't need to be baptized because they are covered by the Atonement (e.g. little children.) Those who were "without law" (e.g. had no knowledge of Christ or this "ritual") are judged by the lives they led, as you suggest.
At the same time, the sinless Christ was baptised - not for remission of his sins, for he had none, but "to fulfill all righteousness." The ritual IS important. Another element of baptism is the choice to be "born again" as children of God. It won't count if you don't want it, but if you do, it's a must-have.
Someone else may answer better. But I hope this helps some.
1. Souls exist after death. Mormons believe our dead do missionary work among all those souls, wherever/whenever they lived. During the "Thousand Years of Peace" the barriers between living and dead will be thinner, and we'll be made aware of any and all who wish to be baptized. Our temples will be VERY busy during that time, with tens of billions of potential baptisms.
2. Certain classes of people don't need to be baptized because they are covered by the Atonement (e.g. little children.) Those who were "without law" (e.g. had no knowledge of Christ or this "ritual") are judged by the lives they led, as you suggest.
At the same time, the sinless Christ was baptised - not for remission of his sins, for he had none, but "to fulfill all righteousness." The ritual IS important. Another element of baptism is the choice to be "born again" as children of God. It won't count if you don't want it, but if you do, it's a must-have.
Someone else may answer better. But I hope this helps some.
Hurrah for LDS | 2:15 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Every religion (almost) says they are the only one, and if you don't have
the good fortune or luck to join theirs you will go to hell. This is akin to
saying on the roulette wheel there is one and only one number that god wants you
to choose, and having a host of people, each one telling you go pick a different
number.
Given this it only makes sense to hedge your bets, other religions should be happy that the LDS is putting their money where their mouth is.
If we truely love our neighboors, you can do no less than the LDS do given their beliefs.
Other religions with the belief that they are the only true one are apparently content to sit back and let all the poor souls with the bad luck to choose the wrong religion (any one other than theirs) burn in hell.
If nothing else, the LDS put their money where their mouth is and they put a lot of effort into it too.
Given this it only makes sense to hedge your bets, other religions should be happy that the LDS is putting their money where their mouth is.
If we truely love our neighboors, you can do no less than the LDS do given their beliefs.
Other religions with the belief that they are the only true one are apparently content to sit back and let all the poor souls with the bad luck to choose the wrong religion (any one other than theirs) burn in hell.
If nothing else, the LDS put their money where their mouth is and they put a lot of effort into it too.
Nancy | 2:23 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
For Keith.
To answer your second question first:
Christ declared that all must be baptised "to fulfill all righteousness", to fulfill Gods law, even Christ who was without sin. And that it was John the Baptist who should baptise him as an angel of God had given John the Priesthood of Aaron and therefore the authority to baptise in God's name.
During the millenium, the veil will be very thin between this earthlife and the hereafter, and all of those who did not have the opportunity in this life to be baptised, will have that choice, and then the information will be revealed to those on earth who have that authority, so that their baptisms can be performed.
To answer your second question first:
Christ declared that all must be baptised "to fulfill all righteousness", to fulfill Gods law, even Christ who was without sin. And that it was John the Baptist who should baptise him as an angel of God had given John the Priesthood of Aaron and therefore the authority to baptise in God's name.
During the millenium, the veil will be very thin between this earthlife and the hereafter, and all of those who did not have the opportunity in this life to be baptised, will have that choice, and then the information will be revealed to those on earth who have that authority, so that their baptisms can be performed.
PRM | 2:27 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
In reply to the following:
Keith | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
1- If everyone needs to be baptized in order to achieve salvation, what happens to those who aren't baptized by proxy? For example, maybe someone in a remote Amazon tribe, which has no contact with the outside world, and no one knows their name. What happens to them?
This is why geneology is vastly important. MANY MANY miracles have been witnessed when searching for someone who is seemingly unfindable. Also, during Christ's reign in the millenium, temple work (baptisms by proxy and geneology) will continue in even greater amounts. Angels truly lead those who do God's work. People will be led by those on the other side, wishing to be found. Baptism isn't a condition of being presented the gospel plan, it's a condition of being able to accept it.
Keith | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
1- If everyone needs to be baptized in order to achieve salvation, what happens to those who aren't baptized by proxy? For example, maybe someone in a remote Amazon tribe, which has no contact with the outside world, and no one knows their name. What happens to them?
This is why geneology is vastly important. MANY MANY miracles have been witnessed when searching for someone who is seemingly unfindable. Also, during Christ's reign in the millenium, temple work (baptisms by proxy and geneology) will continue in even greater amounts. Angels truly lead those who do God's work. People will be led by those on the other side, wishing to be found. Baptism isn't a condition of being presented the gospel plan, it's a condition of being able to accept it.
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