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LDS Church urges pro-Proposition 8 calls
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matt | 10:51 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
marriage is a sacred covenant between a man and a woman exclusively. God told
Moses that when a man was caught lying with another man they must be put to
death. Homosexuality is against the family, against nature, and against God!
Watch out California, the wrath of God is upon you. I wish all the good people
would get out of California so that God would strike it with the sword of his
vengeance!
John Pack Lambert | 10:54 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
I am surprised that Ernest T. Brass opposes bigotry. His statements always
mingle it with vitriol, hate and general opposition and mocking of the work of
the Lord.
His mocking attitude is much more disturbing than people who at least have the respect to say what they really think instead of making light of the gospel.
His mocking attitude is much more disturbing than people who at least have the respect to say what they really think instead of making light of the gospel.
Comments continue below
John Pack Lambert | 10:56 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
The LDS Church is engaging in less over political action than the Unitarian
Universalist church that was a party to the original suite.
Church's are allowed to take stands on issues.
Do you also want to deney the Catholic Church its tax exempt status? I am guessing you do, so go and broadcast that desire in any and every Catholic paper you can find.
Church's are allowed to take stands on issues.
Do you also want to deney the Catholic Church its tax exempt status? I am guessing you do, so go and broadcast that desire in any and every Catholic paper you can find.
John Pack Lambert | 11:08 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
To anonymous at 10:45,
You have obviously never dealt with anything even approaching the inner city if you doubt the stats.
There are so many people in some inner cities raising their great-grandchildren it is mind bogling.
The person may have exagerated slightly, but I served a mission in Las Vegas eight years ago and it seemed we ran into more couples living out of wedlock than married. At that I never served in any true inner city area.
The non-news media have been conducting a pro-homosexuality blitz for nearly two decades.
I was very encoraged by the material at preserving marriage. Even if Proposition 8 passes, the rising generation in the church, those of us under the age of 30, are more strong and staunch in our defense of marriage as between a man and a woman than our elders are.
You have obviously never dealt with anything even approaching the inner city if you doubt the stats.
There are so many people in some inner cities raising their great-grandchildren it is mind bogling.
The person may have exagerated slightly, but I served a mission in Las Vegas eight years ago and it seemed we ran into more couples living out of wedlock than married. At that I never served in any true inner city area.
The non-news media have been conducting a pro-homosexuality blitz for nearly two decades.
I was very encoraged by the material at preserving marriage. Even if Proposition 8 passes, the rising generation in the church, those of us under the age of 30, are more strong and staunch in our defense of marriage as between a man and a woman than our elders are.
John Pack Lambert | 11:21 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
To Cali Guy,
I do not follow the polls because I have a brother who hates Ron Paul and thinks he is a nut but told a polster he would vote for him just because he wanted to mess up the poll.
However, I think we have to bear in mind that this will be a close vote. All that is neccesary for evil to prevail is for enough good men to do nothing, or for enough people to be so involved in hometeaching that they do not make it to the polls on time.
Remember if you are a minute late they will not let you vote. This is a minute late by their clock, so do not procrastinate your voting until the polls are about to close. Vote early!
I do not follow the polls because I have a brother who hates Ron Paul and thinks he is a nut but told a polster he would vote for him just because he wanted to mess up the poll.
However, I think we have to bear in mind that this will be a close vote. All that is neccesary for evil to prevail is for enough good men to do nothing, or for enough people to be so involved in hometeaching that they do not make it to the polls on time.
Remember if you are a minute late they will not let you vote. This is a minute late by their clock, so do not procrastinate your voting until the polls are about to close. Vote early!
John Pack Lamber | 11:30 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
To anonymous at 10:33,
I am not sure why you expect us to put any credence in a study of "protestant clergy".
This study probably limited itself to the liberal clergy in "mainline" protestant churches.
The cleargy tend to be less supportive of traditional marriages than most people at large in their own congregations.
I am trying to write this without to much disdain, but the fact that some religious groups have ordained openly homosexual people and then thumbed their noses at those who claim that this violates the Bible tells me that it is not wise to trust such groups.
If you want to see what happens when a church is lead by people who have been educated in mainline seminaries and who have adopted the values taught there, study the history and development of the RLDS Church, especially since 1970.
I have no desire for us to go that way, and will take the advice of the oracles of God over those who preach the learning of men as the word of God any day.
I am not sure why you expect us to put any credence in a study of "protestant clergy".
This study probably limited itself to the liberal clergy in "mainline" protestant churches.
The cleargy tend to be less supportive of traditional marriages than most people at large in their own congregations.
I am trying to write this without to much disdain, but the fact that some religious groups have ordained openly homosexual people and then thumbed their noses at those who claim that this violates the Bible tells me that it is not wise to trust such groups.
If you want to see what happens when a church is lead by people who have been educated in mainline seminaries and who have adopted the values taught there, study the history and development of the RLDS Church, especially since 1970.
I have no desire for us to go that way, and will take the advice of the oracles of God over those who preach the learning of men as the word of God any day.
John Pack Lambert | 11:36 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
I should make it clear that my statement was against much of the protestant
cleargy in the United States as that term is limited to mainline bodies.
Many evangelical, pentecostal and baptist ministers have done a great good in advancing and adding the cause of morality. There are even in the mainline liberal groups like the Episcopal Church those who see that homosexuality is wrong who have seen that the church is no longer in anyway trying to follow the will of the Lord and have thus pointed their congregations away from the false teachings of the church and have sought to build alliances with people who advocate moral truth within the Anglican tradition particularly in parts of Africa.
So I do not think that all clergy are universally bad. However the mainline protestant clergy have by and large rejected a belief in the Bible as anything more than good counsel, and the RLDS have accompanied this by a rejetion of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
I much prefer the Baptist attack to the RLDS attack. At least the baptists admit that the Book of Mormon has to be historical to be true.
Many evangelical, pentecostal and baptist ministers have done a great good in advancing and adding the cause of morality. There are even in the mainline liberal groups like the Episcopal Church those who see that homosexuality is wrong who have seen that the church is no longer in anyway trying to follow the will of the Lord and have thus pointed their congregations away from the false teachings of the church and have sought to build alliances with people who advocate moral truth within the Anglican tradition particularly in parts of Africa.
So I do not think that all clergy are universally bad. However the mainline protestant clergy have by and large rejected a belief in the Bible as anything more than good counsel, and the RLDS have accompanied this by a rejetion of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
I much prefer the Baptist attack to the RLDS attack. At least the baptists admit that the Book of Mormon has to be historical to be true.
Common_Sense | 12:38 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
It amazes me how many sheep out there are willing to defy common sense and
follow the crowd saying homosexual behavior is normal and natural. Also, what
do we gain by continually appeasing the Christian-hating homosexual lobby?
They'll hate us regardless. Vote yes on 8.
Southern Californian | 12:59 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Same sex marriage is causing problems in Mass. since they are now teaching it to
5 year olds in school. Just what you uninformed haters say won't happen
here. Vote for prop 8 for our children and their future. Teaching people
perverse things always hurts society or don't you see how pornography is
affecting the society we live in.
from the OC | 1:41 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
to fake LDS members who post here:
Nobody is buying your act. We do get that you hate the church and your against anything that is good.
Both Brigram Young and Joseph Smith said the living prophet and his words take precedence over the scriptures. Which makes sense since they are talking directly to us. The prophet says yes on prop 8. If you are going to fight the prophet and the church you will lose eternally. Twisted logic does not work. Same sex marriage is wrong and only the confused and deceived believe it is a good or just thing. Pretending to be a LDS member in good standing is just another deception. Nobody could possibly be as stupid as you pretend to be about how you are following the gospel by rejecting the prophets. Thanks for helping to motivate the yes on prop 8 side. Your illogical stances just prove how confused and full of hate and anger you guys are.
We love you guys, but hate the sinning you are doing. There is time to change and repent. Hopefully you will take the opportunity to do so.
Nobody is buying your act. We do get that you hate the church and your against anything that is good.
Both Brigram Young and Joseph Smith said the living prophet and his words take precedence over the scriptures. Which makes sense since they are talking directly to us. The prophet says yes on prop 8. If you are going to fight the prophet and the church you will lose eternally. Twisted logic does not work. Same sex marriage is wrong and only the confused and deceived believe it is a good or just thing. Pretending to be a LDS member in good standing is just another deception. Nobody could possibly be as stupid as you pretend to be about how you are following the gospel by rejecting the prophets. Thanks for helping to motivate the yes on prop 8 side. Your illogical stances just prove how confused and full of hate and anger you guys are.
We love you guys, but hate the sinning you are doing. There is time to change and repent. Hopefully you will take the opportunity to do so.
re: from the OC | 11:12 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"you're against anything that is good"
"Nobody could possibly be as stupid as you"
"We love you guys"
Is is just me or do #1 and #2, just not seem to go with #3?
"Nobody could possibly be as stupid as you"
"We love you guys"
Is is just me or do #1 and #2, just not seem to go with #3?
not a dime? | 11:20 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
It would be untrue to say the church is not spending money on prop 8. Any
church broadcast or use of church property to forward the cause is
"spending money" on the proposition. Even pronouncements on LDS.org is
spending church money.
The "church should lose its tax-exempt status" is gibberish, however, as non-profits can spend time in such causes just not to excess.
The "church should lose its tax-exempt status" is gibberish, however, as non-profits can spend time in such causes just not to excess.
LDS4gaymarriage | 4:57 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Southern Cal - Same sex marriage is causing problems in Mass. since they are now
teaching it to 5 year olds in school. Just what you uninformed haters say
won't happen here. Vote for prop 8 for our children and their future.
Teaching people perverse things always hurts society or don't you see how
pornography is affecting the society we live in.
LDS - The law here in CA regarding that is Education!Code!(51933)!deals!with!comprehensive!sexual!
health!education!and!HIV/AIDS!prevention.!It!provides!that!instruction!shall!be!age!
appropriate!and!medically!accurate,!shall!teach!�respect!for!marriage!and!committed!
relationships,�!and!shall!encourage!a!pupil!to!communicate!with!his!or!her!parents!
about!human!sexuality.!
!
Therefore,!no!provision!of!the!Education!Code!requires!any!teacher!to!teach!that!
same"sex!marriage!is!�just!as!good�!as!traditional!marriage.!!Teachers!are!to!teach!
respect!for!marriage!and!committed!relationships,!and!Proposition!8!will!not!change!
this!law.2!!!
LDS - The law here in CA regarding that is Education!Code!(51933)!deals!with!comprehensive!sexual!
health!education!and!HIV/AIDS!prevention.!It!provides!that!instruction!shall!be!age!
appropriate!and!medically!accurate,!shall!teach!�respect!for!marriage!and!committed!
relationships,�!and!shall!encourage!a!pupil!to!communicate!with!his!or!her!parents!
about!human!sexuality.!
!
Therefore,!no!provision!of!the!Education!Code!requires!any!teacher!to!teach!that!
same"sex!marriage!is!�just!as!good�!as!traditional!marriage.!!Teachers!are!to!teach!
respect!for!marriage!and!committed!relationships,!and!Proposition!8!will!not!change!
this!law.2!!!
LDS4gaymarriage | 5:12 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
OC - to fake LDS members who post here:
Nobody is buying your act. We do get that you hate the church and your against anything that is good.
LDS - No wonder the gays call us haters. We cant even treat each other civilly.
OC - Both Brigram Young and Joseph Smith said the living prophet and his words take precedence over the scriptures.
LDS - Reference? This I gotta see.
OC - Nobody could possibly be as stupid as you pretend to be ...
LDS - There's that Hallmark of Believers - feel the love.
OC - Your illogical stances just prove how confused and full of hate and anger you guys are.
LDS - I think the above who is hatin' on who.
Nobody is buying your act. We do get that you hate the church and your against anything that is good.
LDS - No wonder the gays call us haters. We cant even treat each other civilly.
OC - Both Brigram Young and Joseph Smith said the living prophet and his words take precedence over the scriptures.
LDS - Reference? This I gotta see.
OC - Nobody could possibly be as stupid as you pretend to be ...
LDS - There's that Hallmark of Believers - feel the love.
OC - Your illogical stances just prove how confused and full of hate and anger you guys are.
LDS - I think the above who is hatin' on who.
Nothing to say | 6:09 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Since all of my posts on this board about the atrocities of what gay men have
done to innocent teenagers have not been allowed by the moderator, I'll
just leave it at this: Not all gay guys are good guys. Many of them are
monsters, bent on "recruiting" and preying on the young and naive.
Marin in Connecticut | 6:20 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Hallelujah! I am pleased to celebrate a time that will go down in history as the
greatest advance in the cause of freedom since the American Civil Rights
Movement!
Some of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters have been fighting long to cash a check issued by our founding fathers. The check was a promise that all mankind -- yes, even gays and lesbians -- would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These rights include the right to decide with whom you will share your life, the liberty to marry whom you choose, and the pursuit of happiness with that person.
For too long, America has defaulted on that promise insofar as their gay and lesbian citizens are concerned. For too long, when they have gone to the Government offices with their check, they have been sent away with it stamped "insufficient funds" and their application for a marriage license stamped "rejected."
But we refuse to believe that the bank of liberty and justice contains insufficient funds in the great vaults of "liberty and justice for all" to deliver on their promise!
Free at last! Free at last! Let freedom ring!
Some of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters have been fighting long to cash a check issued by our founding fathers. The check was a promise that all mankind -- yes, even gays and lesbians -- would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These rights include the right to decide with whom you will share your life, the liberty to marry whom you choose, and the pursuit of happiness with that person.
For too long, America has defaulted on that promise insofar as their gay and lesbian citizens are concerned. For too long, when they have gone to the Government offices with their check, they have been sent away with it stamped "insufficient funds" and their application for a marriage license stamped "rejected."
But we refuse to believe that the bank of liberty and justice contains insufficient funds in the great vaults of "liberty and justice for all" to deliver on their promise!
Free at last! Free at last! Let freedom ring!
Re: LDS4GayMarriage | 6:35 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
This is not OC, just a casual observer. In answer to your question posed at
5:12, the D&C states, "Whether it is from the mouth of my servants or
from the Lord, it is the same."
Our modern prophets have declared that marriage is ordained of God between a man and a woman.
There is no "meanness" or hate in that. It is what the Church teaches.
Our modern prophets have declared that marriage is ordained of God between a man and a woman.
There is no "meanness" or hate in that. It is what the Church teaches.
Not OC Either | 7:05 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To casual observer at 6:35pm
"Ther's no 'meanness' or hate in that. It is what the Church teaches."
But taking legal action to rip a person's freedoms and liberties from them sure is strong evidence that you hate them, regardless of what flowery and dishonest words you use to claim you "love" them!
More scarey is the fact that you will justify that "hate" (or "love" - hate by any other name would cut as deeply) IN THE NAME OF GOD!
I think that adds blasphemy to your bigotry.
"Ther's no 'meanness' or hate in that. It is what the Church teaches."
But taking legal action to rip a person's freedoms and liberties from them sure is strong evidence that you hate them, regardless of what flowery and dishonest words you use to claim you "love" them!
More scarey is the fact that you will justify that "hate" (or "love" - hate by any other name would cut as deeply) IN THE NAME OF GOD!
I think that adds blasphemy to your bigotry.
Yes, OC Sir! | 7:38 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To from the OC,
You didn't finish your moral high-ground speech. You are supposed to say to all gays and lesbians...
"I love you. This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you."
...before you vote for Proposition 8.
Then you send them to their room without any supper.
C'mon, if you are going to patronize, do it right!
You didn't finish your moral high-ground speech. You are supposed to say to all gays and lesbians...
"I love you. This is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you."
...before you vote for Proposition 8.
Then you send them to their room without any supper.
C'mon, if you are going to patronize, do it right!
Re: Not OC | 7:41 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The Church teaches its doctrine. Public opinion (which, by the way, is still
heavily against gay marriage), temper tantrums, protests, etc. do not change the
doctrine.
The Bible is very clear on homosexuality. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever.
The only thing that has changed are the demands of those who refuse to follow the Word of God.
I don't hate you. I'm just not willing to give up my beliefs because you don't like what I believe. I have rights, too.
The Bible is very clear on homosexuality. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever.
The only thing that has changed are the demands of those who refuse to follow the Word of God.
I don't hate you. I'm just not willing to give up my beliefs because you don't like what I believe. I have rights, too.
Yet another Not OC | 9:57 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I don't know what "Yes OC Sir" was talking about. I have nothing
against gays/lesbians. But I'm going to vote for Prop 8. And I'm
sure not going to patronize you. I really don't care what you think -
since you don't care what I think.
LDS4gaymarriage | 10:39 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Nothing - Since all of my posts on this board about the atrocities of what gay
men have done to innocent teenagers have not been allowed by the moderator,
I'll just leave it at this: Not all gay guys are good guys. Many of them
are monsters, bent on "recruiting" and preying on the young and naive.
LDS - In other words, they are just like everyone else. All groups have their own monsters. Gays are like everyone else. Let's treat them like everyone else.
LDS - In other words, they are just like everyone else. All groups have their own monsters. Gays are like everyone else. Let's treat them like everyone else.
The Bible on Trial | 11:23 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Tolerance. We've all heard it and if one does not adhere to it, we are
called bigots. However, what about Religious Intolerance? Trust me, the next
step is for these "activist" groups to outlaw the Bible as hate speech
unless passages are removed. This was tried recently in California during the
Mount Soledad Cross Trial, as the Bible was brought into the legal arguments. I
would be willing to bet that in the next decade, if Prop 8 fails, the Bible will
be placed on trial and that it may be banned for hate speech clauses concerning
homo-sexuality.
Joseph Smith was RIGHT. The Constitution will hang by a thread and the LDS will be the ones who preserve it.
Joseph Smith was RIGHT. The Constitution will hang by a thread and the LDS will be the ones who preserve it.
Prophesy versus rumor | 12:26 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
The white horse prophecy was never officially sanctioned doctrine. Joseph Smith
said a lot of things that didn't come to pass. If it ain't in the
scriptures, it ain't truth according to your leaders. Stop trying to make
it so.
John Pack Lambert | 1:27 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
To reality several pages ago,
First off, contrary to what you believe this is not persecution. No one is going to jail, being arested in the middle of the night, having their right to vote denied based on their beliefs or 50 other things.
Secondly, plural marriage is very different than same gender marriage. Plural marriage just has to do with the exclusivity of the marriage contract. While same-gender marriage has to do with the sex of those who enter marriage.
I have thought of an analogy. It is an analogy, so I do not claim it really expresses the issue adequately, but maybe it will add a little light.
To say that plural marriage lessens our ability todenounce same-gender marriage I have made a hypothetical world. In this world there are laws that allow a person to own only one house. There is also a movement to allow people to own other people. There is a group that opposes ownership in other people but used to allow ownership of multiple houses. They are denounced for their hypocracy in insisting a person can not own another person when they used to allow people to own multiple houses.
First off, contrary to what you believe this is not persecution. No one is going to jail, being arested in the middle of the night, having their right to vote denied based on their beliefs or 50 other things.
Secondly, plural marriage is very different than same gender marriage. Plural marriage just has to do with the exclusivity of the marriage contract. While same-gender marriage has to do with the sex of those who enter marriage.
I have thought of an analogy. It is an analogy, so I do not claim it really expresses the issue adequately, but maybe it will add a little light.
To say that plural marriage lessens our ability todenounce same-gender marriage I have made a hypothetical world. In this world there are laws that allow a person to own only one house. There is also a movement to allow people to own other people. There is a group that opposes ownership in other people but used to allow ownership of multiple houses. They are denounced for their hypocracy in insisting a person can not own another person when they used to allow people to own multiple houses.
John Pack Lambert | 1:36 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Once public policy endorses something government actions to encorage it
become legitimate.
With even my limited knowledge of post-Employment Division v. Smith court cases I fear what will occur.
I can not say that any particular course will happen, but a failure to pass Proposition 8 will make more difficult a broad array of endevors the church engages in.
With even my limited knowledge of post-Employment Division v. Smith court cases I fear what will occur.
I can not say that any particular course will happen, but a failure to pass Proposition 8 will make more difficult a broad array of endevors the church engages in.
John Pack Lambert | 1:39 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Put another way saying "we hate Mormons" is currently not acceptable
dialogue in debating the building of chapels and a direct statement of that
effect will almost certainly give the church eventual victory in building the
chapel.
However if Proposition 8 fails saying "we hate Mormons because they do not allow same-sex marriages, and we do not want discriminitory institutions in our city" will be a legitimate statement to use in debating the presence of an LDS chapel or temple in a community and will stand up to any court challenges.
However if Proposition 8 fails saying "we hate Mormons because they do not allow same-sex marriages, and we do not want discriminitory institutions in our city" will be a legitimate statement to use in debating the presence of an LDS chapel or temple in a community and will stand up to any court challenges.
OC | 2:24 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
to 4gaymarriage:
In this years priesthood manual it quotes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young saying that the living prophet's words take precedence over the scriptures. We had the lesson a few weeks ago. Around page 199. I knew you didn't go to church.
Vote for prop 8 like our prophet has asked us to.
In this years priesthood manual it quotes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young saying that the living prophet's words take precedence over the scriptures. We had the lesson a few weeks ago. Around page 199. I knew you didn't go to church.
Vote for prop 8 like our prophet has asked us to.
John Pack Lambert | 2:39 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
To anonymous at 1:25,
There is a study that shows that the number of children born out of wedlock has risen in Denmark since the legalization of same gender marriage.
Marriage has become so rare in Denmark, that the aactual rate of marriage is irrelevant. What is relevant is the percentage of children born in wedlock.
There is a study that shows that the number of children born out of wedlock has risen in Denmark since the legalization of same gender marriage.
Marriage has become so rare in Denmark, that the aactual rate of marriage is irrelevant. What is relevant is the percentage of children born in wedlock.
John Pack Lambert | 2:45 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
It is not just members of the church who are saying that we should and are
duty bound to support this measure.
It is the president of the church, his counselors and the apostles.
This is not just a political debate. If Propostion 8 fails, religious freedom will be a thing of the past in California.
It is the president of the church, his counselors and the apostles.
This is not just a political debate. If Propostion 8 fails, religious freedom will be a thing of the past in California.
OC | 2:47 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I guess the moderator won't take anymore of my posts. Wonder what side he
or she is on. Vote yes on prop 8.
John Pack Lambert | 3:00 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
To anonmous at 6:28,
We are not finatics.
How can you go around and publicly do the exact opposite of what the President of the church has counseled and claim that you sustain him as a prophet of GOD?
We are not finatics.
How can you go around and publicly do the exact opposite of what the President of the church has counseled and claim that you sustain him as a prophet of GOD?
Wondering... | 3:32 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
When the church and others claim that the supreme court ruling in California
somehow interferes with the "will of the people" are they saying they
do not believe in the doctrine of Separation of Powers?
If the "will of the people" was important to the church, it seems to me that if Prop 8 fails the church will recognize same-sex marriages because that is the "will of the people". I have my doubts. The worldwide LDS church conveniently keeps silent about how they do not recognize the "will of the people" in other states and countries where equality in marriage is the law.
If the "will of the people" was important to the church, it seems to me that if Prop 8 fails the church will recognize same-sex marriages because that is the "will of the people". I have my doubts. The worldwide LDS church conveniently keeps silent about how they do not recognize the "will of the people" in other states and countries where equality in marriage is the law.
Nothing to say | 4:49 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
To LDS4GayMarriage
Thanks for the sympathies, but two of my best friends were molested by gay men as teenagers and after years of "therapy," they were convinced by "enlightened/non LDS" counselors that they are also gay. I will never accept that all gays are "born that way." In fact, I know there are far more out there that had the experience my two friends did.
Thanks for the sympathies, but two of my best friends were molested by gay men as teenagers and after years of "therapy," they were convinced by "enlightened/non LDS" counselors that they are also gay. I will never accept that all gays are "born that way." In fact, I know there are far more out there that had the experience my two friends did.
? | 6:31 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
OC - Both Brigram Young and Joseph Smith said the living prophet and his words
take precedence over the scriptures.
LDS - Reference? This I gotta see.
You should have had that lesson a few weeks ago ;)
LDS - Reference? This I gotta see.
You should have had that lesson a few weeks ago ;)
Julie | 7:09 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
First of all, to equate us not allowing gay marriage to Hitler and the Third
Reich and Mahmoud is ridiculous. No homosexual in this country is getting
arrested in the middle of the night and put to death like they are in Iran and
were in Germany in 1940. The government isn't asking neighbors to denounce
gays so they can be arrested and put in a concentration camp like the Nazis did.
It is not like segregation laws. The fact is simply this: There is no law that
is different for me than it is for someone who is gay. They are treated equally
under the law. Many just feel that the marriage laws shouldn't apply to
them. That was not true for blacks, who had to abide by different rules from
whites. Marriage is not a civil right. There are laws regarding who we
can/can't marry on many levels (age, how closely someone can be related to
you, gender, and only one spouse)If marriage were a civil right, we'd have
to get rid of all those obnoxious laws and truly allow everyone to marry anyone
or anything of their choosing.
To: Nothing to Say | 7:16 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Thanks for your comments. I, too, don't believe homosexuals are
"born" that way. I know of a LDS person who people kept telling him he
acted "gay" and because that seed was planted in his head, he decided
he must be gay. Through therapy he was able to stop and is now not gay anymore.
John Pack Lambert | 9:21 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Anyone who claims the scriptures denounce Proposition 8 does not understand
LDS Doctrine.
The most important words are those of the living prophet. Even if the claims of disagreement with past scripture were true, which they are not, the words and commands of the current prophet are Scripture and have more weight than anything written by a dead prophet.
I mean not respect for the decesed leaders, because no statement from the scriptures actually contradicts Proposition 8, I am just pointing out that some people's logic fails under the light of revealed truth.
The actual threat to freedom of religion comes from not passing proposition 8. Policies that force people to either change their longstanding actions or loose tax exempt status or even ability to place children in adoption violate the notion of religious freedom.
The most important words are those of the living prophet. Even if the claims of disagreement with past scripture were true, which they are not, the words and commands of the current prophet are Scripture and have more weight than anything written by a dead prophet.
I mean not respect for the decesed leaders, because no statement from the scriptures actually contradicts Proposition 8, I am just pointing out that some people's logic fails under the light of revealed truth.
The actual threat to freedom of religion comes from not passing proposition 8. Policies that force people to either change their longstanding actions or loose tax exempt status or even ability to place children in adoption violate the notion of religious freedom.
John Pack Lambert | 9:35 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
To just not a dime,
It is not an issue of how much money or time the church devotes on this issue.
To the church this is a moral issue. It is central to its mission to preserve laws that are compatible with its teachings.
Contrary to what some people believe, the teaching that would be most threatened by the failure of Proposition 8 is freedom of religion.
However it would be the freedom of Lutherans, Baptists, Orthodox Jews and Catholics much more than Latter-day Saints. However we value freedom of religion as a principal for all.
Thus people who see it as a religious duty to put children up for adoption to married couples should not have their efforts stopped by an arbitary redefiniton that includes people who are no married couples in this view.
If Proposition 8 passes no one will go to jail. Unitarians, Quakers and other liberal religious groups can continue to call same-sex commitment services marriages all they want, and will retain their rights to perform marriages for couples involving people of both genders.
If Proposition 8 fails, it is not as clear that people who refuse to do same-gender marrige will not suffer.
It is not an issue of how much money or time the church devotes on this issue.
To the church this is a moral issue. It is central to its mission to preserve laws that are compatible with its teachings.
Contrary to what some people believe, the teaching that would be most threatened by the failure of Proposition 8 is freedom of religion.
However it would be the freedom of Lutherans, Baptists, Orthodox Jews and Catholics much more than Latter-day Saints. However we value freedom of religion as a principal for all.
Thus people who see it as a religious duty to put children up for adoption to married couples should not have their efforts stopped by an arbitary redefiniton that includes people who are no married couples in this view.
If Proposition 8 passes no one will go to jail. Unitarians, Quakers and other liberal religious groups can continue to call same-sex commitment services marriages all they want, and will retain their rights to perform marriages for couples involving people of both genders.
If Proposition 8 fails, it is not as clear that people who refuse to do same-gender marrige will not suffer.
Pure Doctrine | 10:34 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
It's probably been said before on these fourms, but it's worth saying
again. This whole thing comes down to this...Alma 41:10 "...Behold, I say
unto you, wickedness never was happiness." You can lie to yourself and try
to force others to do the same, but homosexuality and every other type of sin
never did and never will bring true happiness. Forcing others to agree with your
sins won't change this moral absolute. Saying you don't believe in the
LDS church won't either. Troll away!
Concerned Parent and Citizen | 6:12 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
To those who want to know how this will effect religious and parental
freedoms:
*In Massachusetts schools they can teach your child about homosexuality, without parental notification because it is legal. If parents want to teach this to their children themselves they no longer have that option. Schools say that since it is law any adult in schools have the right to teach homosexuality to your child without your knowledge.
*How it effects religious freedom is that agencies, such as LDS family services which provide adoption services will probably no longer be able to operate in CA because religion will not be able to "discriminate" against these couples because again it will be law.
Homosexual couples in CA have all of the rights of a marriage but to actually legalize marriage will mean that in giving a few this right they will take the rights of many away. This country was founded on Religious freedom and the rights of parents have always been held sacred. If this Proposition does not pass it will open the door to other ways that religious and personal freedoms will be limited for those that don�t agree with Homosexuality.
*In Massachusetts schools they can teach your child about homosexuality, without parental notification because it is legal. If parents want to teach this to their children themselves they no longer have that option. Schools say that since it is law any adult in schools have the right to teach homosexuality to your child without your knowledge.
*How it effects religious freedom is that agencies, such as LDS family services which provide adoption services will probably no longer be able to operate in CA because religion will not be able to "discriminate" against these couples because again it will be law.
Homosexual couples in CA have all of the rights of a marriage but to actually legalize marriage will mean that in giving a few this right they will take the rights of many away. This country was founded on Religious freedom and the rights of parents have always been held sacred. If this Proposition does not pass it will open the door to other ways that religious and personal freedoms will be limited for those that don�t agree with Homosexuality.
Anonymous | 8:47 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
To Pure Doctrine,
I am glad you have nothing in mind but the happiness of gays and lesbians, even if you have to force that happiness upon them. Only if they are righteous can they be happy, and so you are going to pass a law so that they cannot possibly be unrighteous and will, therefore, be happy, whether they like it or not!
Very good thinking.
I am glad you have nothing in mind but the happiness of gays and lesbians, even if you have to force that happiness upon them. Only if they are righteous can they be happy, and so you are going to pass a law so that they cannot possibly be unrighteous and will, therefore, be happy, whether they like it or not!
Very good thinking.
Re: Anonymous 8:47 | 9:17 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
Guess what? This measure doesn't take away their choices, it doesn't
change their lifestyle, it doesn't mean they'll stop doing what they
want in the privacy of their bedrooms. It just means that it won't have
forced support and sanction for it. They will still have all the rights
they've held in California (which, ten years ago, they claimed they'd
be perfectly happy with and they would NEVER, EVER try to make marriage legal),
the rest of us just won't be forced to condone it.
Maria | 11:40 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
Please lets all help Californians to vote YES on proposition 8!
So Cal Josh | 11:27 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Yes on 8! Show that it's OK to stand up for what you believe in. Send the
message that the people of California still know that homosexuality is not right
and is not a right! Declare that societal acceptance of homosexuality will have
dire consequences for our state, society, and nation.
I add that as we do so, we must ensure that people with homosexual tendencies understand that just as I would still love my son no matter what wrong choices he makes, we still care for and love them and will help them if they want.
I add that as we do so, we must ensure that people with homosexual tendencies understand that just as I would still love my son no matter what wrong choices he makes, we still care for and love them and will help them if they want.
Vote NO on Proposition 8 | 5:50 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
To So Cal Josh,
Is it OK for gays and lesbians to stand up for what they believe in?
Do you realize that your patronizing attitude is offensive? Gays and lesbians are NOT your inferior morally or otherwise, as is your son. It is your place to correct and discipline your son, who is a child. It is NOT your place to arrogantly assume you are entitled to correct and discipline other adults. Your hypocrisy and stupidity are alarming!
So, if gays and lesbians are standing up for what they believe in, and that is to have equal protection under the law so THEIR marriages can be legal, what is it YOU are standing up for? The right to deny them their rights? Proposition 8 does nothing to YOUR rights. It takes away the rights of gays and lesbians. How noble of you to "stand up for what you believe in" when doing so does not harm you, but severely harms others! Are you that ignorant to delude yourself into believing you are noble and to be admired for this senseless act of bigotry that harms others over the definition of a word?
Is it OK for gays and lesbians to stand up for what they believe in?
Do you realize that your patronizing attitude is offensive? Gays and lesbians are NOT your inferior morally or otherwise, as is your son. It is your place to correct and discipline your son, who is a child. It is NOT your place to arrogantly assume you are entitled to correct and discipline other adults. Your hypocrisy and stupidity are alarming!
So, if gays and lesbians are standing up for what they believe in, and that is to have equal protection under the law so THEIR marriages can be legal, what is it YOU are standing up for? The right to deny them their rights? Proposition 8 does nothing to YOUR rights. It takes away the rights of gays and lesbians. How noble of you to "stand up for what you believe in" when doing so does not harm you, but severely harms others! Are you that ignorant to delude yourself into believing you are noble and to be admired for this senseless act of bigotry that harms others over the definition of a word?
The Deuce | 9:25 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
We all keep passing the ball back and forth regarding who is loosing their
rights and who is not. While I am still in the process of trying to decide how
to vote on Prop 8, I have taken the time to review the current laws of civil
unions vs marriage. Whether Prop 8 passes or not there will be no change to the
current laws on the books for Gay/Lesbian couples. The only thing that will
change is the definition of what marriage is and the possible long-term
consequences of opening up this argument. So the bottom line is that a vote for
Yes on Prop 8 does not take away anyone's civil rights. By voting No on
Prop 8 does not give anyone addtional rights. With that said I then turn to the
long-term consequences of such legislation for both sides. Again, we are simply
talking about changing the definition of marriage. The question is whether or
not this is beneficial for society as a whole. This is where the moral argument
comes in. The No on 8 side has promised that this vote will not change things.
Well, read the papers, things have happened.
Grant | 11:53 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
To The Deuce,
Read a little more and you might correct your blindness.
Read the California Supreme Court's decision. Read it in its entirety. Too many (especially LDS) offer their opinions (or, rather, the opinions of their leaders) without having read the decision.
READ THE DECISION.
It is valid. Separate does NOT mean equal. Rights ARE lost as gays and lesbians are NOT equal under the law. We went through this in the 60's. For some reason LDS leaders didn't learn a thing from the 60's. But the rest of us did.
Read a little more and you might correct your blindness.
Read the California Supreme Court's decision. Read it in its entirety. Too many (especially LDS) offer their opinions (or, rather, the opinions of their leaders) without having read the decision.
READ THE DECISION.
It is valid. Separate does NOT mean equal. Rights ARE lost as gays and lesbians are NOT equal under the law. We went through this in the 60's. For some reason LDS leaders didn't learn a thing from the 60's. But the rest of us did.
Shallow Hal | 2:48 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008
So if I understand what the Deuce and Grant are saying, this is like the civil
rights movement in the 1960s. Blacks were saying they wanted equal rights and
equal protection under the law. Whites were saying blacks already have equal
rights and equal protection, even though they have separate (segregated)
facilities and schools and areas of the cities. Whites said blacks had separate
but equal everything. Whites then counter-attacked claiming that giving blacks
true equality would take away whites' "right to refuse service to
anyone" in their businesses, schools, and other places. Whites insisted
they have the right to be as bigoted as Archie Bunker and any rights given to
blacks was an infringement on that right!
Today, gays and lesbians are saying they want equal marriage rights. Religious people say gays already have separate but equal rights (civil unions for gays; "marriage" for heterosexuals). Religious people are insisting that any rights to marry that are given to gays will take away religious people's "right to refuse marriage to anyone who is not opposite sex."
Sounds simple. How did the civil rights movement work out for you whites? How will the "gay rights" movement work out for religionists?
Today, gays and lesbians are saying they want equal marriage rights. Religious people say gays already have separate but equal rights (civil unions for gays; "marriage" for heterosexuals). Religious people are insisting that any rights to marry that are given to gays will take away religious people's "right to refuse marriage to anyone who is not opposite sex."
Sounds simple. How did the civil rights movement work out for you whites? How will the "gay rights" movement work out for religionists?
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I have good news for you. You can vote yes on proposition 8 and not vote for any candidate for president. It is much better to do that than to not vote at all