Deseret News | Shame on LDS Church

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Readers' forum: Shame on LDS Church

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just a thought | 11:03 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

People seem to forget it is not JUST the LDS church who are in support of Prop. 8. Other churches, groups, and individuals not affiliated with the LDS church are actively campaining for Prop. 8.

TO: TEXAS SENSE | 11:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

"There is a perfectly logical reason to do so, which is conveniently overlooked by those who desire this change. Traditional marriage is the ONLY union that is capable of producing offspring with DNA from both parents. This fact alone warrents a unique name: MARRIAGE."

Do you teach logic there in Texas? Are you saying that that the children of unwed mothers don't have DNA from both parents? I thought only the Catholic church taught the doctrine of virgin birth.

Shame indeed | 11:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

on the Catholics for thinking it is a church sacrament, on the LDS for thinking marriage was ordained of God and on the evangelicals for thinking it is of Judeo-Christian origin and should not be changed.

Comments continue below

Tenderheart | 11:44 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Why does everyone confuse the word "love" with the word "sex?" Sometimes you can show the greatest love for someone by NOT having sex with them. While we are supposed to love everyone, there are socially important reasons for legally defining those with whom one should or should not have sex.

doclouie | 11:56 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Marriage has always been between a man and woman. It is just a sad day when a very minor group wants to change it and for the sake of being a minority they get their way.

doclouie | 12:07 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

It is amazing how the minority of people want tolerance for their extreme views, but when it comes to them being tolerant to others views there is no tolerance. What a hypocrisy!

Jess | 12:08 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I am embarrassed to be LDS as I read these comments. Just sad, I can't believe what I am reading.

The Mormpublican Party | 12:10 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The Mormon Church should have its tax exempt status taken away. Mind your own holier than thou business.

Anonymous | 12:17 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Yes indeed shame on the LDS church. Read the comments you have written folks. Just mean and hateful.Yes indeed shame on the LDS members for the hate and bigotry they spew.

Craig Paxton | 12:18 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Actually "Doclouie" In Utah, marriage was once defined as being between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman....Interesting how the very church who once had this view of marriage is now using its influence to discriminate against another minority

Jack Andrews | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

There should be no shame directed to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Far from the masses whose "apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand," the Church and its members is standing up for what it believes is critical to the benefit of marriage, family, and society.

The reason that the issue of gay marriage becomes so very dangerous is that it attempts to MATE the secular with the religious. Hence, if the government can change the definition of marriage, then the next step on the slippery slope is the ability to dictate the circumstances of such a marriage. For instance, the government has no right to tell the LDS Church, or any other Church, that it must honor--much less solemnize--a homosexual marriage in one of its temples, chapels, or synagogues...or do they? THAT is what this issue is about. The very FREEDOM of religion is at stake. It is the very crux of the matter.

Anonymous | 12:38 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

It is possible to have children without marrying; many people do. Many married couples choose not to have children. The argument that marriage is or should be limited to procreation is ridiculous.

Doug Preston | 12:42 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

God ordained marriage and defined it. It is not for man to mettle with. I believe it is in the best interest of our society, however, to allow gay couples to commit to each other in Domestic Partnerships that grant them the legal benefits that married couples enjoy. Lifetime committment is much better for homosexuals just as it is for heterosexuals. Promiscuity is simply disctuctive.

John Pack Lambert | 12:46 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The issue is will the govenrment give the pro-active stamp of public policy approval to same gender marriage.
Once that is done, other public policies must be altered to benefit that.
On the issue of teachings in the school. Tell me one thing that is taught in the schools that advocates behavior that is counter to LDS doctrine?
Do they teach to steal, lie, commit adultery, have sex before marriage, kill, speak blasphemies? If you can name one behavior that is endorsed in school curiculaum that is contrary to church doctrine, we might be able to have a discussion about how negative these changes will be.
I will admit that at least some sex-education curriculums are value neutral to a large extnet, but few schools actually encorage masterbation. Even at that sex education is usually first undertaken in the fifth grade, not kindergarten.
Some of us still believe in the innocence of children and do not want to see it soiled by being exposed to books like "Heather has two Mommies".

Historically Speaking | 12:59 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Marriage has nothing to do with procreation or children. If you weren't so ignorant and steeped in your narrow religious views, you would understand that it originated as a social contract between families. It remains a LEGAL contract. When you say that God created marriage, you are showing your ignorance of world history. Whether or not you believe in God, you do have a brain. Use it. GET AN EDUCATION!

Lost No More in California | 1:01 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I live in California. I am a recovered homosexual, and I'm LDS! Having experienced many facets of life, I have come to a realization of how truley lost and sexually charged the Gay Movement is! The LDS church and every other christian organization has a moral responsibility to address these preverse natures, and keep them from infiltrating the impressionable minds of our children! We are right in our fight for this cause! Changing the definition of marriage puts individuals and religious organizations at risk of being forced to comply with practices that go against their beliefs.

Re: Wondering... | 1:34 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Then your guess would be wrong, actually. The LDS Church spends a lot of time, energy and money fighting against divorce, domestic abuse of all kinds, adultery, and financial problems, which some of the main reasons behind divorce. They speak out about such things during every single General Conference, and typically again during the Priesthood session. There are routine articles in the Ensign and other church publications about them. There are routine firesides given about them. They send out pamphlets and hold counseling sessions about them. They hold classes on them during Homemaking, Young Men and Young Women activities. Just because it doesn't make the news doesn't mean it isn't happening with regularity.

TOO FUNNY... | 2:02 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS...BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... It truely amazes me that people would go to such lengths to justify themselves... believe what you want... let others believe what they want... then leave it at that...

Anonymous | 2:05 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Shame on the LDS church? If you understand how the "church" works God runs it. You are pretty much saying shame on God. You might want to rethink things and get back to the basic's of any religion. If you are LDS you should understand this very easily. Follow the Prophet, follow the Prophet he won't lead us astray.

Scooter | 2:28 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

If a gay person wants to be a spouse and parent, why doesn't he or she change sexual preference to comply with the law? Isn't this concept more representative of personal freedom than requiring the country to change its laws?

The fact that the LDS Church teaches this is actually less shameful and demeaning than the concept that a person's sexual orientation being locked in at birth or forever shaped by events like abuse, neglect, etc.

Utah on my mind | 2:29 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

People, Utah was founded by LDS Church. If you don't like it, leave. Simple as that.

OC | 2:43 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

to the confused:
Many of you are just like children that need to be corrected. Vote yes for prop 8. We who have children realize that sometimes you have to talk sternly to them, but you don't stop loving them. Correct others is love, not hate.

Meso | 3:03 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Much of the argument for Prop 8 seems to be that a church and its members have a right to stand up for what they think is wrong. They see nothing wrong with church interference in politics. The question to be determined by ballot in California is whether or not homosexual citizens will have the same rights that their heterosexual countrymen now enjoy.

We kill Taliban forces that dictate strict obedience to the Koran in places like Afghanistan yet look on passively when the rights of our own citizens are excluded from equal participation because of Old Testament dictates. Separation of church and state is tantamount here. Homosexuality is not a crime and the only folks ineligible for the rights that we all possess are those who have committed crimes and thus forfeited them.

The tyranny of the majority, of which folks like Thomas Jefferson and John Stuart Mills warned us, certainly applies here. If the shoe were on the other foot and homosexuals were the majority, we heterosexuals would certainly protest loudly that our civil rights were being violated when that majority excluded us from equal participation in this great social experiment we call democracy.

Defeat Prop 8!

TO ANONYMOUS | 3:12 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

There are alot more hateful comments on this site towards LDS people than there are too Gay's and Lesbians. There is all this talk that it is about money. You know how much money the church has spent on advertising. I know you don't care, but the Church and its members are standing up for there beliefs. The world will come to an end without the standard marriage between Man and Women. Wanting to be different doesn't mean destorying humankind.

Luke | 3:20 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Utah was NOT founded by the LDS Church. It was founded by the United States government, Thank you very much.

Ken | 3:25 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I wish the hateful Californias who have posted here would mind there own business and leave the church alone.

Mase | 3:25 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Glad your gone!!

Wondering Again... | 3:28 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The person who responded to my post didn't read it very carefully.

Where does the LDS church spend time and money and satellite braodcasts and special letters read from the pulpit and donated time and money to tighten divorce LAWS that would "strengthen the instituation of marriage"?

Once again, I think zero.

EGC | 4:32 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

It's interesting to read some of the responses comparing a gay marriage with that of marrying a 10-year old in a pedophilic marriage.

I'm ashamed of the church for coming out so against this issue of allowing two people in a loving relationship to have equal protection in the eyes of the law. I thought the church said they didn't get involved in politics...this is what I was taught in Elder's Chorum and what I told people on my mission in Venezuela.

My wife, daughter, and I are resigning our memberships over this. What an absolutely disgusting show of bigotry.

Re:EGC | 4:44 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Sorry to hear that, EGC, and there will probably be many others who will also leave the Church over this. But it doesn't change what is right and what is wrong.

How any church or religious person can ignore the very clear labeling of homosexuality as an abomination in the Bible is inconceivable.

And for the record, it wasn't the Church who got involved in politics, it was the politicians who got involved in religion. They crossed the line when they made marriage a political issue.

May God bless you whatever you decide to do.

Anonymous | 4:45 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I think a lot of us are glad you left Utah too! Contrary to your misguided opinion, governments DO HAVE THE RIGHT to regulate conduct. I, for one, would hate to live in a society where anything goes, and that's basically what you're advocating. BTW, you Mormon bashers should be aware that the Catholic Church isn't too keen on the subject of gay marriage either. In fact, many religions are against it, so the Mormons really aren't in the minority as you'd have us believe.

Matt | 5:07 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

QUOTE: "If you give a mouse a cookie, then she will want a glass of milk."

Really? No. Not really.

Davide | 5:22 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

ISAIAH CHAPTER 8. 3 And I went unto the prophetess; and SHE conceived, and bare a son.

Without a man and women there are no children. (and please lets remember there was no IVF back then). We are not frogs who changing our sex when required. So why it is that mankind must change nature order of life. There are no other arguments as further as I can see. There are too many people who believe they know better than nature and want to change things, just look at globe warming and Wall street, what a great job the human race has done, doomed us all, because we are selfish and only thinking of our own desire and lusts. Our law makers have got it wrong and we must stand up to these people and there Immoral supporter before they destroy us all. Lets DO SOMETHING about it.

Meso | 5:25 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The Old Testament scriptures contain the only references to homosexuality...those writings left by desert tribes seem to be the only call to arms that fuel the rants of those so opposed to equal rights for our gay and lesbian neighbors. Would those folks who would use those texts as a moral compass for this nation also subscribe to the stoning of recalcitrant children and adulterers?

It is the right of every citizen to believe in whatever supernatural diety that comes along but those beliefs cannot and must not be used as a weapon to exclude from equal participation, any segment of society...a society founded on the notion of separation of church and state and the notion of equal rights for all it's citizens.

To EGC | 5:35 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

EGC, You clearly did not read the church media release, because I was surpised when I read this: The focus of the Churchï¿½s involvement is specifically same-sex marriage and its consequences. The Church does not object to rights (already established in California) regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the family or the constitutional rights of churches and their adherents to administer and practice their religion free from government interference.
Clearly your reason for having your membership removed is not related to the church voicing Gods opinion. Please don't give up.

themostcrazy | 5:50 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

homosexuality is just a mistake of the nature.

Les | 7:06 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Calm down EGC, I really doubt if you are even LDS. Nobody will leave the church over this, it is just crazy to say so. This will increase the church if anything. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Follow the Prophet and the only man whom knows Gods true vision on this earth. If you choose to leave you are weak and probably will not be missed anyway.

Gay Marriage is a Danger | 7:14 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The scriptures warn that in the latter days people will call good evil and evil good. Homosexuality was considered evil by society until the late 70's. Now it is considered an acceptable lifestyle by many. As it is being taught as an acceptable lifestyle in many schools, more and more young people are becoming confused, and thinking that they were "born that way". I almost went down that path. As you give into sin, more and more wrong choices look more and more acceptable. Fortunately, I repented, and have learned to control my thoughts. I'm a very happy Heterosexual as a result. If I had been raised where that was considered acceptable, I would've been really messed up. For that reason, I think gay marriage is a danger. You can say evil is good, but it you can't change the commandments! God is the same today as he was in the Old Testament, and New Testament. He loves the sinner, and wants for us all to repent. That love won't save us if we don't repent.

not buyin it | 7:26 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I have long since stopped believing this nonsense about wanting equal protection etc. being the driving force behind the gay marriage push. The people who are out in front on this issue are the same ones who lead the parade on every issue that can harm the institution of family, religion, self reliance, responsibility etc.. My observation is that this is their version of holding someone down on the playground until he says "uncle". For some reason, these people feel like making society say uncle will validate them....and as much as they claim otherwise, they want the rest of us to give them our blessing. People are failing to remember that this technique does not breed acceptance but just serves to drive the wedge deeper and leads to more hatred. You want me to live and let live? Then shut up and get out of my face and I will forget you are there. But constantly trying to scream me down will just make me wish you didn't exist.

Lost no more in California? | 8:10 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Good for you! However, (you probably knew that was coming right?) You are not in the norm. Most gay people do not consider themselves "broken" or "sinners" anymore. If you were able to "change" then it was because you did not have the total attraction to the same gender. Just like there are varying degrees in many things, this is the case with homosexuality. This does not mean that the majority will/or can change.(Nor do they want to).

George | 8:14 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

My last comment was not published so it must have offended the editor. My comment was that same sex marriage will uproot the entire social system. i.e. If I want to marry my son, it would allow me to receive his work health benefits. If he where married to me he would receive my retirement if I die. If I wanted to marry my dog the only reason he couldn't get my retirement benefits is, that he could not sign checks. I could provide power of attorney for him. Wouldn't this be the case if you had same sex marriage. Am I out to lunch or what?

Unbelievable | 8:14 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Well done Deseret News!

Why is an opinion like this made so prominant on your web site. You have fallen into their trap and given them exactly the publicity they want. Shame on YOU!

Travis - I love Utah. | 9:33 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

"Anonymous | 3:45 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
People in Utah are always intrigued by why it is that those who moved away follow what is happening?

Answer: A morbid curiosity similar to witnessing a train wreck. "

Nope. wrong. California is the train wreck we love to watch. You just watch the economic situation and the resulting changes WHEN gay marriage is allowed once more. We'll be adversely affected here in Utah as well, but not like California.

"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

Re: Meso | 9:53 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Not so, Paul also condemns homosexuality in his Epistle to the Romans. And the fact that homosexuality is condemned so many times in the OT makes it pretty evident that it is against the law of God.

Moreover, our modern prophets have stated that it is against God's law. If you do not wish to follow these prophets, that is your choice. However, despite the fact that you liberals would rather have it otherwise, there is still freedom of religion.

And to you and the others who have called the OT prophets "goat-herders," etc., that just shows your lack of knowledge/belief in the Bible. Why would one who believes in the Bible buy in to your argument knowing that?

Michael | 10:07 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Gay marriage or not life goes on. One thing that remains constant is the ammusement I get from mormons. I love me some mormon speak on these blogs, you all make my day a give me a sense of the lighter side of life.

Listening to you all, well I feel pretty darn good about my life.

Still wow... | 10:15 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Again, you may choose what you will believe, but you may not choose for me what I will believe. I will choose to stand with the true and Living God...you may follow your philosophies of men and live in your paper house believing that your minuscule existence on this earth qualifies you to know more that the witness of prophets over the ages...make whatever choice you want...Truth will still remain truth...by the way...I said nothing about the bible...If you are going to refute me, at least use my words.

Pure Doctrine | 10:39 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

It's probably been said before on these fourms, but it's worth saying again. This whole thing comes down to this...Alma 41:10 "...Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness." You can lie to yourself and try to force others to do the same, but homosexuality and every other type of sin never did and never will bring true happiness. Forcing others to agree with your sins won't change this moral absolute. Saying you don't believe in the LDS church won't either. Troll away!

(((FACTS))) | 10:45 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

As per the CA code 297.5, same sex relationships ALREADY enjoy their rights! They already have their cake AND eat it too....but now they're trying to take a scoop of ice cream they didn't have - off of someone else's plate.
Read up and EDUCATE yourself!

Family code section 297.5(a) establishes that registered domestic partners have the same rights, protections, and benefits and are subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under the law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.

The Deuce | 12:17 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Many who have posted on this site have stated that allowing Gay/Lesbian marriage will not have any impact on our school childen. Well, just when you thought you have seen it all a report from the Saturday Oct. 11, 2008 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle has a story where one class of first graders was taken on a school sponsored field trip to watch one of their female teachers marry her female partner. The school's interim director justified the trip as a "teachable moment" for the children. So much for the TV ads that say this won't happen. Well, now it has. The California Education Code permits school districts to offer sex education which they will have to teach respect for all types of marriage. Well, we have now seen what the opposition to Prop 8 has said would not happen. It seems to me that if Prop 8 is defeated the barn door will be wide open to all kinds of interesting field trips. The Deuce was still reviewing both sides of the proposition and weighing the truth from both sides. My eyes have been opened a little wider today. Food for thought!

re: Pure Doctrine | 10:39 p.m | 1:01 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

The scripture I find I like the most goes something like this: All have sinned and have come short of the glory of God.

I guess people like you and me will never find happiness.

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