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Readers' forum: Shame on LDS Church
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Observation | 4:30 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Based on the way some of you spell, perhaps you should have gone to school a bit
more and church a bit less.
Try Opening Your Eyes | 4:36 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"Anonymous | 4:57 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
The LDS church preaches love - except for same-sex relationships. What hypocrites!"
So "love" is only love if it's always warm and fuzzy and comfy for everyone involved, huh?
You're obviously not a parent, are you? Or, if you are, you're likely not a wise one.
You labor under the false assumption that love does not require, yes, REQUIRE, for saying or communicating things that are sometimes hard or painful to hear. For years and years my wife tried to communicate to me the idea that I was acting quite selfishly towards her and was thus hurting our marriage. We've been married 20 years and you know what? In the last couple of years I have seen more and more clearly that she is right; I have acted selfishly in many instances.
I didn't want to hear what she said because quite frankly it stung emotionally. But if our marriage is going to go to the next level I need to see things clearly and that means even if some things are uncomfortable to deal with.
The bottom line is love means you care enough to clearly, respectfully tell the truth. Always.
The LDS church preaches love - except for same-sex relationships. What hypocrites!"
So "love" is only love if it's always warm and fuzzy and comfy for everyone involved, huh?
You're obviously not a parent, are you? Or, if you are, you're likely not a wise one.
You labor under the false assumption that love does not require, yes, REQUIRE, for saying or communicating things that are sometimes hard or painful to hear. For years and years my wife tried to communicate to me the idea that I was acting quite selfishly towards her and was thus hurting our marriage. We've been married 20 years and you know what? In the last couple of years I have seen more and more clearly that she is right; I have acted selfishly in many instances.
I didn't want to hear what she said because quite frankly it stung emotionally. But if our marriage is going to go to the next level I need to see things clearly and that means even if some things are uncomfortable to deal with.
The bottom line is love means you care enough to clearly, respectfully tell the truth. Always.
Comments continue below
Carlos | 4:47 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The LDS church is dead right on this issue. What member of the church would
vote to make the blessings of baptism, confirmation and temple ordinaces
UNAVAILABLE to so many people with a puny little law like this. A vote to allow
gay marriage is a vote against the very center of the gospel--repentance. Why
not have a vote on child molestation? How can so few people want to exclude all
of those wonderful child molesters from their legal rights to have free
expression of their sexual indulgences? When we vote for something this
immoral, we are telling the world (in front of God and everyone) that we want to
bar these individuals from becoming members of the church or participating in
temple ordinances. How would we dare even cast a vote for such a disgraceful
position? Let's reserve the definition of marriage to what GOD says it is,
not man's definition. I vote for marriage between one man and one woman.
I do not believe literally in | 5:00 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Adam and Eve and yes, I will "rationalize til the cows come home"
because it is this rational that is the the issue! Adam and Eve was and is a
tribal legend...it is so obviously not literal in so many ways! Sodom and
Gomorrah was a tribal legend too and many other things in the Bible. How many
things practiced in the Bible have been changed (too many on this page to
mention). Stop using lame excuses mentioned in writings thousands of years old
and start dealing with the issues in the 21st century. In this time we have gay
people that want to commit. We have infertile couples that will never
"multiply and replenish" which, by the way, was written when they
world had a fraction of the people that are in it now (much under six billion).
Please people...lets talk like we are intelligent.
Michael | 5:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Stop complaining! If the $1500 is a burden, then just get married to a GIRL!
Here's How.... | 5:15 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"re: Civil, Moral, Devine | 11:18 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008 -- The claim that
allowing gay marriage is an "assault on traditional families" is
complete nonsense. Show me ONE heterosexual couple that will divorce from
allowing gay marriage?"
Your thinking is incorrect. Legalizing gay marriage WILL undermine traditional marriage.
How?
Because legally recognizing homosexual unions as "marriage" will essentially introduce an option to people as to which kind of union they want when no such option should even be considered.
Do I choose a heterosexual marriage or no marriage as compared to....do I choose a heterosexual marriage, no marriage or a homosexual marriage? The more options you introduce to people the less likely you are, statistically speaking, to choose the option that is the most wise; traditonal male/female marriage.
Now, will adults already in male/female marriages likely divorce and enter in homosexual marriages? No.
However, what about our children?
YOU are introducing an option to MY children and my neighbors' children that shouldn't be introduced at all.
Those who rally behind you in your argument refuse to see that it is FOR OUR KIDS IN PARTICULAR AND THE GENERATIONS BEHIND THEM that we are fighting for.
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
Your thinking is incorrect. Legalizing gay marriage WILL undermine traditional marriage.
How?
Because legally recognizing homosexual unions as "marriage" will essentially introduce an option to people as to which kind of union they want when no such option should even be considered.
Do I choose a heterosexual marriage or no marriage as compared to....do I choose a heterosexual marriage, no marriage or a homosexual marriage? The more options you introduce to people the less likely you are, statistically speaking, to choose the option that is the most wise; traditonal male/female marriage.
Now, will adults already in male/female marriages likely divorce and enter in homosexual marriages? No.
However, what about our children?
YOU are introducing an option to MY children and my neighbors' children that shouldn't be introduced at all.
Those who rally behind you in your argument refuse to see that it is FOR OUR KIDS IN PARTICULAR AND THE GENERATIONS BEHIND THEM that we are fighting for.
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
Out of State - Shame on God | 5:18 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Shame on God for making marriage between a man and a woman. Too bad he is not
as smart as some of the rest of the world who obviously know better. Maybe then
he would have set up marriage differently.
Regardless of your belief/religion if you believe in God and read his word then what are we arguing about? You don't have to be a Pastor, Priest or Mormon to figure this one out.
I have gay friends and I do love them. Do not agree with them and do not feel they should be married but I sure do not hate them. They are welcome at my home. I also have friends that do not believe in God. Love them too but do not agree with them either. They too are welcome.
Live the 10 commandments and the Love your neigbor thing. That will get us through. NOTE: But it does say Honor your Father & Mother not Father and Father or Mother and Mother. Sort of like what the rest of the Bible teaches.
Regardless of your belief/religion if you believe in God and read his word then what are we arguing about? You don't have to be a Pastor, Priest or Mormon to figure this one out.
I have gay friends and I do love them. Do not agree with them and do not feel they should be married but I sure do not hate them. They are welcome at my home. I also have friends that do not believe in God. Love them too but do not agree with them either. They too are welcome.
Live the 10 commandments and the Love your neigbor thing. That will get us through. NOTE: But it does say Honor your Father & Mother not Father and Father or Mother and Mother. Sort of like what the rest of the Bible teaches.
NICE | 5:33 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
That's a great comment. I would love to hear your support for a
woman's choice to get married at the age of 16, or a man and women's
choice to live in a polygamous marriage.
When you start expanding the boundaries of something that has been defined as it is from before the days this country existed, where do you stop?
Beside the fact your comment shows an attitude of a bigot towards a specific belief system, it doesn't support why marriage should be a right and, if a right, why it should extend beyond its current definition. Currenty, a gay union couple has several advantages over a married couple, least of all tax benefits (google the "marriage penalty").
My opinion is that marriage should remain between a man and woman. It is not a right, but a privelege that comes with responsibilities, one of those being to nuture and care for children. I don't believe God (and we KNOW that nature doesn't allow it for humans) supports the notion for children to be raised by a same sex couple, the same as God wouldn't support the notion of a child being raised in an abusive household.
When you start expanding the boundaries of something that has been defined as it is from before the days this country existed, where do you stop?
Beside the fact your comment shows an attitude of a bigot towards a specific belief system, it doesn't support why marriage should be a right and, if a right, why it should extend beyond its current definition. Currenty, a gay union couple has several advantages over a married couple, least of all tax benefits (google the "marriage penalty").
My opinion is that marriage should remain between a man and woman. It is not a right, but a privelege that comes with responsibilities, one of those being to nuture and care for children. I don't believe God (and we KNOW that nature doesn't allow it for humans) supports the notion for children to be raised by a same sex couple, the same as God wouldn't support the notion of a child being raised in an abusive household.
Anonymous | 5:35 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Bear Rug,
You say, "The LDS Church has never told us who we could or could not love. There are men that I love . . . as good, good friends, and mentors. There are women that I love, that aren't my wife. The distinction is NEVER made between love and sexuality."
Proposition 8 is about prohibiting same-sex MARRIAGE, not same-sex SEX. So all religious people whose objections to same-sex marriage are based on the idea that homoSEXuality is a SIN, YOU are the ones who are equating marriage and sex!
For all you judgmental bigots know, two men or two women just want to be MARRIED and will never have SEX! How can you object to that?
But NO, you have to assume that their desire to be married is all about SEX and that they just want filthy, sinful, disgusting SEX with one another.
So who are really the perverts here? The gays and lesbians who just want to be MARRIED? or the religious fanatics who think this is all about SEX and they can't stand the thought of other people having sex that doesn't conform to THEIR rules?!
You say, "The LDS Church has never told us who we could or could not love. There are men that I love . . . as good, good friends, and mentors. There are women that I love, that aren't my wife. The distinction is NEVER made between love and sexuality."
Proposition 8 is about prohibiting same-sex MARRIAGE, not same-sex SEX. So all religious people whose objections to same-sex marriage are based on the idea that homoSEXuality is a SIN, YOU are the ones who are equating marriage and sex!
For all you judgmental bigots know, two men or two women just want to be MARRIED and will never have SEX! How can you object to that?
But NO, you have to assume that their desire to be married is all about SEX and that they just want filthy, sinful, disgusting SEX with one another.
So who are really the perverts here? The gays and lesbians who just want to be MARRIED? or the religious fanatics who think this is all about SEX and they can't stand the thought of other people having sex that doesn't conform to THEIR rules?!
To Irony III | 6:04 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I'll just keep saying it until it sinks in:
Disagreeing with someone does not mean you hate them.
You liberals want everyone to see it your way, but you never stop to consider there are other ways. You want "free speech" as long as it agrees with your speech. Otherwise you want it silenced.
Disagreeing with someone does not mean you hate them.
You liberals want everyone to see it your way, but you never stop to consider there are other ways. You want "free speech" as long as it agrees with your speech. Otherwise you want it silenced.
Martin in Connecticut | 6:17 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Hallelujah! I am pleased to celebrate a time that will go down in history as the
greatest advance in the cause of freedom since the American Civil Rights
Movement!
Some of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters have been fighting long to cash a check issued by our founding fathers. The check was a promise that all mankind -- yes, even gays and lesbians -- would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These rights include the right to decide with whom you will share your life, the liberty to marry whom you choose, and the pursuit of happiness with that person.
For too long, America has defaulted on that promise insofar as their gay and lesbian citizens are concerned. For too long, when they have gone to the Government offices with their check, they have been sent away with it stamped "insufficient funds" and their application for a marriage license stamped "rejected."
But we refuse to believe that the bank of liberty and justice contains insufficient funds in the great vaults of "liberty and justice for all" to deliver on their promise!
Free at last! Free at last! Let freedom ring!
Some of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters have been fighting long to cash a check issued by our founding fathers. The check was a promise that all mankind -- yes, even gays and lesbians -- would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These rights include the right to decide with whom you will share your life, the liberty to marry whom you choose, and the pursuit of happiness with that person.
For too long, America has defaulted on that promise insofar as their gay and lesbian citizens are concerned. For too long, when they have gone to the Government offices with their check, they have been sent away with it stamped "insufficient funds" and their application for a marriage license stamped "rejected."
But we refuse to believe that the bank of liberty and justice contains insufficient funds in the great vaults of "liberty and justice for all" to deliver on their promise!
Free at last! Free at last! Let freedom ring!
Terry Taylor | 6:30 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Do you LDS agree with everything that is taught in the public (or even private)
schools?
How many of you good LDS even have a clue what your children are being taught by their professors at BYU?
There will always be stuff taught "out in the world" that you will not want your children to believe or agree with. So what? That will never change.
When your child comes home with an idea that you disagree with, you simply teach them in love and kindness what you believe to be the truth. No big deal.
Then prepare yourself when your child begins to live his or her OWN life and chooses to believe what they want to believe, even if it is not the same thing YOU believe!
They will live their own lives independent of you.
Or are you all so insecure as to want to control even the very thoughts and feelings of your children's souls?!
Are all Latter-day Saints such paranoid control freaks?
Get a clue. Your children are already being exposed to ideas that are contrary to your beliefs, even without Proposition 8. The amendment will do NOTHING to solve that problem.
How many of you good LDS even have a clue what your children are being taught by their professors at BYU?
There will always be stuff taught "out in the world" that you will not want your children to believe or agree with. So what? That will never change.
When your child comes home with an idea that you disagree with, you simply teach them in love and kindness what you believe to be the truth. No big deal.
Then prepare yourself when your child begins to live his or her OWN life and chooses to believe what they want to believe, even if it is not the same thing YOU believe!
They will live their own lives independent of you.
Or are you all so insecure as to want to control even the very thoughts and feelings of your children's souls?!
Are all Latter-day Saints such paranoid control freaks?
Get a clue. Your children are already being exposed to ideas that are contrary to your beliefs, even without Proposition 8. The amendment will do NOTHING to solve that problem.
Vince | 6:38 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To To Irony III | 6:04 p.m.,
Disagreeing with someone certainly does not mean that you hate them.
But taking legal action to rip a person's freedoms and liberties from them sure is strong evidence that you hate them, regardless of what flowery and dishonest words you use to claim you "love" them!
Disagreeing with someone certainly does not mean that you hate them.
But taking legal action to rip a person's freedoms and liberties from them sure is strong evidence that you hate them, regardless of what flowery and dishonest words you use to claim you "love" them!
FOLLOW THE MONEY | 6:46 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Have you ever wondered why the LDS church is so violently against gay marriage,
that it would force its views on those not members of it's faith? There
are many other moral laws of the LDS church that don't get near the same
attention. The recent thought of relaxing Utah alcohol laws (why? that would
increase money flow into Utah). Legal gay marriage means that the church cannot
descriminate against gay members marrying in the temple, OR ELSE LOSE TAX EXEMPT
STATUS. Bottom line is this would be a blow to the corporation, and they have a
big monetary incentive to do what they can to fight it.
Anonymous | 6:57 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To Here's How.... | 5:15 p.m.,
Excellent point!
We need to keep people "righteous" be eliminating all but the "righteous" options from their lives!
Yeah, that's the ticket!
Oh, wait. Isn't that what the battle in Heaven was all about? Whose plan was it to guarantee "salvation" by eliminating the possibility for sin?
Think, think, think...
Excellent point!
We need to keep people "righteous" be eliminating all but the "righteous" options from their lives!
Yeah, that's the ticket!
Oh, wait. Isn't that what the battle in Heaven was all about? Whose plan was it to guarantee "salvation" by eliminating the possibility for sin?
Think, think, think...
Aaron | 7:03 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Marriage is sacred bond between a man and a woman, The gay society only wants to
force gay marriage/lifestyle down our throats so that we will finally accept
them... Sorry but I don't agree with that, and I am not going to condone
it. Ban Gay Marriage!
Archie Bunker III | 7:07 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I guess I am a bit different than most LDS people claim to be.
They claim to LOVE gays and lesbians, but hate their sins, and so they enact laws and amendments to take away the civil liberties of those whom they love.
Pardon me for saying so, but homosexuality sickens me. I hate gays and lesbians, and I am not afraid to say that. Call me a homophobe if you want to. I'll be honest and own up to it.
But I will NEVER support a law that takes away the civil liberties of even someone I hate! I will NEVER allow anyone to infringe on my freedom to marry who I want to marry (or to divorce who I want to divorce, or even to adulterate with who I want!), and I certainly won't allow anyone else's freedom to be infringed even if they are gay!
So I guess I wonder what gays and lesbians think. Would you rather have the typical LDS "LOVE" and lose your rights, or would you rather have MY kind of "HATE" but the freedom to choose your partner and the liberty to marry them?
They claim to LOVE gays and lesbians, but hate their sins, and so they enact laws and amendments to take away the civil liberties of those whom they love.
Pardon me for saying so, but homosexuality sickens me. I hate gays and lesbians, and I am not afraid to say that. Call me a homophobe if you want to. I'll be honest and own up to it.
But I will NEVER support a law that takes away the civil liberties of even someone I hate! I will NEVER allow anyone to infringe on my freedom to marry who I want to marry (or to divorce who I want to divorce, or even to adulterate with who I want!), and I certainly won't allow anyone else's freedom to be infringed even if they are gay!
So I guess I wonder what gays and lesbians think. Would you rather have the typical LDS "LOVE" and lose your rights, or would you rather have MY kind of "HATE" but the freedom to choose your partner and the liberty to marry them?
Aaron | 7:08 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Hey: FOLLOW THE MONEY,
The Church would willingly lose their tax exempt status long before they would allow gays to marry in the temple! Oh and one thought:
It was Adam and Eve... Not Adam and Steve :)
The Church would willingly lose their tax exempt status long before they would allow gays to marry in the temple! Oh and one thought:
It was Adam and Eve... Not Adam and Steve :)
Ca voter | 7:13 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Homosexual behavior is wrong and abnormal. In 1988 at UC Irvine in my graduate
health class we had a public health official from San Francisco come speak to
us. He said aids was not that easy to transmit, but it spread extremely fast
through the gay population there. He said in studying there that the homosexuals
averaged 500 sexual partners a year. That is not normal. Also at gay pride
events they allow the pedophile organization North Anerican Man Boy Love
Association and similar groups. Again Homosexuals will not even condemn these
groups. Makes sense since Homosexuals are many times more likely than
Heterosexuals to sexually molest children. This is a choice they are making and
it is not natural or normal in any way. That being said yes on prop 8 will not
allow educators to be able to equate same sex marriage with traditional
marriage. As some have tried to do. This will reduce the propaganda. Funny how
anti prop 8 groups try to equate mormons and others with Nazis when it is the
anti 8 people with all the hate and false propaganda. You haters will still have
civil unions, but will not pervert marriage anymore.
Follow the RIGHT Money! | 7:17 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
FOLLOW THE MONEY | 6:46 p.m.
You are a paranoid freak. There is no danger of the LDS Church losing its tax exempt status if gay marriage is legal.
I think what is really driving this out of proportion attention to the gay marriage issue is simply the Church leaders want to stimulate the lethargic Church membership out of their routine slumber by giving them a cause to fight for. Their donations increase much more from inciting religious fervor and self-righteous zeal than they could possibly save from retaining tax exempt status! Whip a crowd into a religious frenzy, and the "spirit of God like a fire will burn", and that makes money!
So stop your silly conspiracy theory nonsense. Yes, this is about money, but the Harvard Business graduates they have in the Quorum of the 12 aren't playing penny anti poker here. They know how to get the BIG BUCKS by milking religious bigotry for every dollar! No doubt they have been watching the Imams in Iraq and seeing how profitable religious fanaticism is in the Middle East, and they said, "Hey, we can do that!"
You are a paranoid freak. There is no danger of the LDS Church losing its tax exempt status if gay marriage is legal.
I think what is really driving this out of proportion attention to the gay marriage issue is simply the Church leaders want to stimulate the lethargic Church membership out of their routine slumber by giving them a cause to fight for. Their donations increase much more from inciting religious fervor and self-righteous zeal than they could possibly save from retaining tax exempt status! Whip a crowd into a religious frenzy, and the "spirit of God like a fire will burn", and that makes money!
So stop your silly conspiracy theory nonsense. Yes, this is about money, but the Harvard Business graduates they have in the Quorum of the 12 aren't playing penny anti poker here. They know how to get the BIG BUCKS by milking religious bigotry for every dollar! No doubt they have been watching the Imams in Iraq and seeing how profitable religious fanaticism is in the Middle East, and they said, "Hey, we can do that!"
Amen and Amen | 7:22 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Connecticut just gave freedom to gays and lesbians! Keep it going!
Let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi, from every mountainside. Let freedom ring, and when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, gay men and lesbian women, black and white, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
Let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi, from every mountainside. Let freedom ring, and when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, gay men and lesbian women, black and white, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"
Follow the Prophet | 7:24 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Need we all remind ourselves of the primary song...
from the OC | 7:30 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Yes on prop 8 does not take away any rights. Everyone will still be able to
marry someone of the opposite sex. You can still love who you want to, but if
you haven't noticed society has laws against you marrying underage
individuals, animals, mechanical objects, same sex individuals, etc. You are not
going to ruin my celestial marriage, but your lies will get other people to
choose your same sex lifestyle which is a dead end and bad for society. For
those that continue to pose as LDS posters, we are not buying it. Nobody is that
stupid to actually believe in the church and know it is true, but say the
prophet is wrong on this one. You don't know more than God or his prophet.
It doesn't work that way. I know several gay people who chose that
lifestyle also, but that doesn't mean I believe it is right. I guess if
some of you know a child molester personally you will think child molesting is
ok also. Try to use alittle logic before you become so accepting of a deviant
lifestyle choice. Vote yes on prop 8! Follow the prophet.
Re: Vince | 7:35 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
What rights and liberties do you want? Inheritance, visitation in the hospital,
not being discriminated against in the workplace? I WANT you to have those
rights and I think you already have them.
"Gay marriage" is just a thinly-veiled attempt to force the vast majority of Americans to think/believe/admit/say that gayness is normal.
You can pass all of the laws you want and that won't ever happen.
"Gay marriage" is just a thinly-veiled attempt to force the vast majority of Americans to think/believe/admit/say that gayness is normal.
You can pass all of the laws you want and that won't ever happen.
Not just one church opposes this | 8:47 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I find it rather ironic that so many people are extremely bitter towards one
church when over 200 churches and ministries in California also support
Proposition 8; the entire text reads:
"Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California."
We don't really know the reprocussions gay marriage will have on the freedom of religion for the US; however, it has already started to have negetive implications on religious beleifs.
No long ago NPR news mentioned several problems, for instance, the Catholic Church no longer offers adoption services since a gay couple decided to sue after being denied service; and an ob/gyn doctor was told by a judge to find another career since he refused to render service at the request of a female couple for invetro-fertilization. The list goes on...
Fortunately, a CBS (San Francisco) Poll shows that most Californians are in favor of Proposition 8 (Oct 7th).
The a narrowly divided California Supreme Court overturned the vote of over 4 million Californians who overwhelmingly passed Proposition 22 in support of marriage between a man and a woman.
What ever happened to upholding moral values?
"Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and recognized in California."
We don't really know the reprocussions gay marriage will have on the freedom of religion for the US; however, it has already started to have negetive implications on religious beleifs.
No long ago NPR news mentioned several problems, for instance, the Catholic Church no longer offers adoption services since a gay couple decided to sue after being denied service; and an ob/gyn doctor was told by a judge to find another career since he refused to render service at the request of a female couple for invetro-fertilization. The list goes on...
Fortunately, a CBS (San Francisco) Poll shows that most Californians are in favor of Proposition 8 (Oct 7th).
The a narrowly divided California Supreme Court overturned the vote of over 4 million Californians who overwhelmingly passed Proposition 22 in support of marriage between a man and a woman.
What ever happened to upholding moral values?
interested reader | 9:37 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I find it very interesting that until the LDS Church leadership took a stand
this bill was not even a topic of conversation among political relationships.
We're glad . . . | 9:52 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
you left Utah too Christina. If California chooses to blaspheme the God-given
institution of marriage, it deserves the judgments God pronounces upon it.
Thank Goodness Utahns have more respect for the God-given institution of
marriage than the California Supreme Court does. There is no shame standing
with a prophet of God to oppose evil. Shame on you for calling evil good and
good evil.
Believer in Dialogue | 10:02 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"The LDS church preaches love - except for same-sex relationships. What
hypocrites!"
The LDS Church preaches love and it preaches avoiding worldliness, being "in the world but not of it", concepts taught by Christ in the Bible. People who have a worldly view and reject concepts taught in the Bible, specifically, sodomy, will have a different view from Christianity. Wikipedia defines "agape" (Christian love) as this: "The term 'agape' is rarely used in ancient manuscripts, but was used by the early Christians to refer to the self-sacrificing love of God for humanity, which they were committed to reciprocating and practicing towards God and among one another." Eros, or sexual "love" is different. A true Christian will love (agape) each individual for what he/she is, but will not condone inappropriate behavior of that person. Eros is not Christian love, but sex is appropriate within the bonds of a Biblically defined marriage. We can have a difference of opinion about when sex is appropriate, but let's not confuse sex with Christian love.
The LDS Church preaches love and it preaches avoiding worldliness, being "in the world but not of it", concepts taught by Christ in the Bible. People who have a worldly view and reject concepts taught in the Bible, specifically, sodomy, will have a different view from Christianity. Wikipedia defines "agape" (Christian love) as this: "The term 'agape' is rarely used in ancient manuscripts, but was used by the early Christians to refer to the self-sacrificing love of God for humanity, which they were committed to reciprocating and practicing towards God and among one another." Eros, or sexual "love" is different. A true Christian will love (agape) each individual for what he/she is, but will not condone inappropriate behavior of that person. Eros is not Christian love, but sex is appropriate within the bonds of a Biblically defined marriage. We can have a difference of opinion about when sex is appropriate, but let's not confuse sex with Christian love.
ChefTobz | 10:19 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
It is a sad moral state that the world is in today. For those who oppose this
Proposition, you clearly haven't done your homework on homosexual
activities, and the effect it has on society as a whole. You can call me a
bigot all you want, but it is not me that is the blind bigot with so much hate,
anger, and rage against a church that stands up for what it believes in. Some
may call the churchs stand on this "money convenient" but the truth is
that sometimes you can only turn the other cheak so many times before it becomes
necessary to defend ones self, ones beliefs, and ones family. I applaud the
church, any church that is finally willing to take a stand.
Texas Sense | 10:25 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Those who believe marriage is strictly defined as the union of a man and a woman
have a right to that opinion, and a right to teach that principle to their
children. There is a perfectly logical reason to do so, which is conveniently
overlooked by those who desire this change. Traditional marriage is the ONLY
union that is capable of producing offspring with DNA from both parents. This
fact alone warrants a unique name: MARRIAGE.
Calling anything else by this name does in fact dilute the meaning thereof. Any other arrangement requires medical intervention or a surrogate 3rd party for children to be produced. It IS different, and the names should be different.
Calling anything else by this name does in fact dilute the meaning thereof. Any other arrangement requires medical intervention or a surrogate 3rd party for children to be produced. It IS different, and the names should be different.
Solution | 10:45 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Forget civil marriages altogether. Let it be spiritual for those who care and
all civil arrangements made through attorney. I'm sure the market niche
would be rapidly filled for a competitive and reasonable fee. Then we could all
stop fighting about it.
theres nothing to fight about | 11:23 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
People are waking up all around this great country and equality is beginning to
happen. I am so glad that I am alive today to witness the civil rights movement
pushing forward. Conneticut opened their eyes today and California in November
will vote no on Prop 8. Freedom is spreading throughout our country and it is a
beautiful thing to witness. God bless you all and as California goes so the
rest of the states will go. May equal rights not be limited to the perfect but
to all of Gods imperfect as well.
Definitions | 11:34 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
There is a difference between a "right" and a "rite".
Marriage is a rite. It is not a right. No matter what rights you wish to invent
into the various state and federal constitutions, the two are different.
Power of Attorney | 12:16 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
You paid $1500 to hire a lawyer to draft a power of attorney? Your judgement is
lacking not only in morality, but also in the legal system.
Next time Google "Power of Attorney," pull up a free form online, and go to your nearest bank, and sign the document in front of a notary public. You don't need to be gay or pay $1500 to get a power of attorney. I use a power of attorney to take care of my mom's finances. Wasting $1500 in attorney fees is no excuse for trying to justify gay marriage.
Next time Google "Power of Attorney," pull up a free form online, and go to your nearest bank, and sign the document in front of a notary public. You don't need to be gay or pay $1500 to get a power of attorney. I use a power of attorney to take care of my mom's finances. Wasting $1500 in attorney fees is no excuse for trying to justify gay marriage.
Re: @Oregonian | 12:38 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
While we're asking children what they want to do, and granting that, why
don't we let them run with knives and cross the street without looking. How
many children are going to understand how that decision will effect them in the
long-term?
Bogus | 6:04 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Whatever happened to the Bible in all this dialogue with homosexuals? Seems I
recall Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed due to all their sick perversions.
Maybe the Apostle Paul made all this stuff up that we find in the New
Testament.(KIng James version. APA is not God. They cannot change the fact that
for "man to lie with man" is just plain perverted and sick and wrong.
When courts and judges legalise perverts being married they also legitimise the
perversion(s). Sure let's all be tolerant of others but not to the degree
of tolerating the perversions they promote. Tolerance no longer is about letting
folks worship and believe as they choose but in actual fact is more about
permissiveness which is equal to unbridled perversion. Do as you choose in your
own home so long as you do it with consenting adult(s) but keep it out of your
disgusting perverted public displays and parades. Shame on California and other
high courts for writing law(s) which should never be the role of seven or nine
appointed persons.
Mile | 6:28 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Christina shows signs of co-dependency. She left Utah but cannot leave Utah
alone!
All of Us are Sinners | 7:04 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
We all Sin, every one of us. Since for most people, being gay is not our Sin,
we sure seem preoccupied with casting stones in their direction.
Lorraine | 8:00 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Born of ingnorance and lack of full understanding you need to try and figure out
your statement on gay marriage for yourself. Are you listening or just raving
about things beyond your realm of reasoning?
Rosie O'donnell | 8:07 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I couldn't be more proud of the church. If everyone led a depraved life
like me, they would all be as miserable as me.
happy camper | 8:32 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
So happy to be LDS and Democrat, union leader and a LDS prison program
coordinator. In my job and personal life I treat gay people with respect and
appointed some as union stewards. I try to keep my covenants and support the
official declarations of the LDS Church. I am so thankful that I can turn the
other cheek to those who despise what I believe. The choices made to follow the
brethren are some of the most important ones I have or will have to make in this
life. The blessings are there for all as we are all sons and daughters of a
loving God. All will be blessed for their good and will regret opportunities
where weakness or sin held them back. Our eternal elder brother knows much more
than I or anyone else in this life. While he loves us withou condition, will he
trust us if we reject him and his servants? I hope to be spreading the good
news in the post mortal life. See you there, hope all that feel of my
conviction will approach without hesitation since I want to do what I can here
or there. Thanks for reading.
Tolerance | 8:34 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Strange as this topic is, it always seems that no one wins or losses with this
topic of gay vs straight. It seems that no matter what position a person has,
one side is always wanting to suppress the others rights to have a point of
view. Ther are trusting and ethical people on both sides of this issue and it
always de-evolves into anti-talking points and ugly dehumanising add-homonym
attacks from both points of discusion.
It is just as unrealistic to assume that ALL homo-sexual people hate hetero-sexual people as it is to assume the contrary. So here we find the problem, hate speech and fear mongering can only produce MORE hatred and MORE bigotry irregardless of straight or gay. Freedom of thought and the right to speak freely are God given freedoms, not rights given to us by man. Therefore, lets do away with all the political posturing for power one over another, and re-relize that we are all children of God.
It is just as unrealistic to assume that ALL homo-sexual people hate hetero-sexual people as it is to assume the contrary. So here we find the problem, hate speech and fear mongering can only produce MORE hatred and MORE bigotry irregardless of straight or gay. Freedom of thought and the right to speak freely are God given freedoms, not rights given to us by man. Therefore, lets do away with all the political posturing for power one over another, and re-relize that we are all children of God.
Spencer Anderson | 8:56 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
We have been warned about the tyranny of the majority. Well, I think that we
should be warned about the tyranny of the minority. Gays and lesbians are in the
minority, and they want to change the nature of a sacred institution favored by
the majority--past, present, and future. If we accept same-sex marriage, we
might as well accept inter-species marriage. Either way we would be making a
mockery of a sacred institution.
In addition, if you think about marriage like a job, would gays and lesbians meet all the basic job requirements? Can they love each other? Yes, I suppose so. Can they remain committed to each other for life? Yes, I suppose so. Can they procreate? No, I am certain they cannot do that. Not being able to procreate is like an accountant not knowing what debits or credits are. Same-sex marriages will never yield offspring, which is one of the principle reasons marriage exists.
Marriage is about giving life, and that is something same-sex couples will never be able to do. Don't let the tyranny of the minority bring death to marriage.
In addition, if you think about marriage like a job, would gays and lesbians meet all the basic job requirements? Can they love each other? Yes, I suppose so. Can they remain committed to each other for life? Yes, I suppose so. Can they procreate? No, I am certain they cannot do that. Not being able to procreate is like an accountant not knowing what debits or credits are. Same-sex marriages will never yield offspring, which is one of the principle reasons marriage exists.
Marriage is about giving life, and that is something same-sex couples will never be able to do. Don't let the tyranny of the minority bring death to marriage.
RL | 8:57 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
"Shame"??? No, I really don't think so. But you are entitled to
your opinion. And I'm entitled to not agree.
CHURCH GOER | 9:06 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
I don't see how all you gay and homosexuallity supporters can get mad at
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. When they are doing the Same
thing you all are STANDING UP FOR WHAT WE BELIVE. We just have a large force
that is fighting for a cause of Marriage between Man and Women. There have been
disagreements on this world from day 1 so if you feel something in your heart is
wrong or right stand up for it. I feel gay marriage is wrong.
We Can....... | 9:27 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
think for ourselves just fine, thank you very much writer. I have a brain and
exercise my thought and reason just as well as the next person. Just because
the Church asks members of its faith to go out and vote for something that is
inherent in their beliefs doesn't meen 1- they are going to do it and 2-
that they wouldn't have done it anyways. Shame on the writer for trying to
pretend they understand people's motives and beliefs in acting the way they
do. Your article is nothing more than a hate article and I believe the majority
of people who read it will recognize it for what it is. It provides no logical
argument, just hate speech. It has no rational reason, just words to try to
incite people against the Church.
Linus | 9:29 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Part of the problem is the language. Marriage has always meant what marriage
means. Even in the days of Sodom, marriage was between a man and a woman.
Homosexuals have hijacked enough of our good words! Gay was a wonderful word in my childhood. It was absolutely filled with positive delight. Now you have ruined it! And now you want to ruin another good word.
I say, make up your own word for your relationship. If you can't think of one, just use the Lord's word for it. Call it "sin."
Homosexuals have hijacked enough of our good words! Gay was a wonderful word in my childhood. It was absolutely filled with positive delight. Now you have ruined it! And now you want to ruin another good word.
I say, make up your own word for your relationship. If you can't think of one, just use the Lord's word for it. Call it "sin."
Wondering... | 9:48 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
How much time and money has the LDS church spent on "strengthening
marriage" by encouraging the tightening on divorce laws?
How many church members have recently been disciplined for being divorced (some members multiple divorces)?
How many letters from the First Presidency have been read from every church pulpit and how many special satellite broadcasts have there been and how much money have members been encourage to donate to change laws that would peserve the insitution of marrige by making it more difficult to get a divorce?
On all of the above my guess the answer would be zero.
How many church members have recently been disciplined for being divorced (some members multiple divorces)?
How many letters from the First Presidency have been read from every church pulpit and how many special satellite broadcasts have there been and how much money have members been encourage to donate to change laws that would peserve the insitution of marrige by making it more difficult to get a divorce?
On all of the above my guess the answer would be zero.
michaelh | 10:37 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Yet another pointing finger from the great and spacious building. No wonder
California is a festering cesspool. I am glad that you are there and I am not.
We are going to fight to preserve marriage and the ability to teach our children
religion and morality whether you agree with us or not. We will never give up we
will never surrender this is our civil rights fight and we will die rather than
suffer defeat. Shame on you for trying to force your twisted beliefs down our
throats.
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