Deseret News | Reader comments: FLDS mom seeks sanctions against agency in Texas

Reader comments
FLDS mom seeks sanctions against agency in Texas

Thomas Jefferson | 2:57 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

I don't know what is worse in this case, the highly deceptive media constantly violating the truth and utterly failing at journalism or the government violating the Constitution. I suppose the latter, but then would it ever be allowed if the media actually reported?

The first of many | 4:50 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

This is just the first shot over the bow. If Texas loses, the state could see hundreds of such cases, and hundreds of millions in damages. And that would be justice.

Joey | 5:15 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

It's about time. These corrupt agencies need to start acting with a little accountability toward the people. The hubris of an organization like CPS to snatch children without explanation, and use endless taxpayer dollars justifying their actions, should offend and rile anyone who sees what's happening.

Comments continue below

Go FLDS | 5:57 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

It's about time that the worm turned.

All those monogamous families within the FLDS need to begin pressing charges for having their children kidnapped and held hostage until they, under duress, signed boilerplate service plans not pertinent to their particular families. It IS extreme duress when the freedom of your kidnapped children is held against you unless you agree to cooperate.

The FLDS certainly need to press for $$ for lawyers that they wouldn't have needed if allowed the Constitutinal right to live peacefully in their own homes without fear of illegal seizure of their children or property.

They need to sue to get their personal items back, too.

I hope every monogamous family follows suit and files a separate lawsuit for the pain and suffering of each child taken illegally into custody, and for each parent.

I hope there is a provision in the suit that covers payment for future counseling for parents/children because of this kidnapping event.

And I hope the FLDS win BIG TIME - again and again!
Once for each person that wrongfully suffered at the hands of CPS and Walther.

Texas - you've been Walthered!

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

MV | 6:29 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

I hope this suit opens the floodgate for suits from the other mothers.
A two year old boy being taken into care because he MAY grow up to be a pervert! The very idea!
GO FLDS MOM!

Anonymous | 6:30 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

CPS was more than justified. This mother should be investigated for raising her child in a cult that is so dangerous to children. CPS's initial concern been validated by the numerous charges filed to date: to wit, that girls were groomed to be enslaved as children in sham marriages, and that boys were groomed to be their enslavers.

No one much is listening or pitying any of the flds mothers (using that word loosely) in light of the mountain of evidence that continues to pour out.

SLC gal | 7:23 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Anon - They were taking in "child brides" who later turned up to be of legal age. Many of whom were married monogomously (ie: no sister wives). By all means if there's an issue, the children should be protected, but these agencies need to do their homework first.

4Constitution | 7:34 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Anon- I wonder what will happen when the majority of people think that the way you raise your children MAY be harmful. Will they rip your family apart? I think the constitution was written to protect me from people like you!

Justice For All | 7:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Anonymous, please be careful in your use of the term "evidence." So far the ONLY evidence that has been produced by CPS that we, the general public, have seen is a couple of pictures of Warren Jeffs kissing a girl. Those pictures might be (are) gross and disgusting. But that is not a "mountain of evidence".

What we do see is a mountain of *allegations*. Allegations are not evidence nor are indictments. And indictment says that somebody made allegations to the grand jury, that the prosecution presented information (not evidence, it is not evidence until the opposing consul has an opportunity to question the validity of the information) and the grand jury decides there is enough possibility of a crime that a trial should take place.

What confuses this particular case even more is that there might be "evidence" that is determined to be inadmissible. If it is inadmissible, then regardless of how damning it might be, it can NOT be used.

Remember, BOTH parties are lying to us. Ether by omission or by intention. Until these cases come to court, there is very little, we the general public, actually know to be factual.

anon (not anonymous) | 7:47 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

A great deal of the trouble could have been avoided if those involved had given honest, forthright answers instead of telling lies, changing their names, changing their birthdates, forgetting who their mothers were, forgetting which children were theirs, identifiying the fathers, etc. It is no wonder that CPS gave up and took them all in order to try to figure out what the truth was/is.

JJ | 7:52 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

It's about time! CPS is not only a disgrace in Texas, but is an agency that has been found to be corrupt in nearly every state of the nation. They have become the American version of the KGB, taking prisoners with no legal justification, considering themselves above the laws of the land and destroying families on anonymous tips and the unsubstantiated word of informers. It's time someone forced CPS to follow the rules.

comon sense | 7:54 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

There is evidence all over the place, much of it has been recorded in affidavits, journals, and interviews with children, Where you been all this time???

CURIOUS | 8:06 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

HOW CAN ANYONE BE SO DOWN ON CPS, THEY ACTED ON TIPS, WHETHER PROVING TRUE OR NOT, THERE CONCERN IS THE CHILDREN, PERIOD. JUST THINK OF ALL THE CASES, YOU READ IN THE NEWS, FATHER DROWNS 3 CHILDREN, ETC. THEY HAVE TO CHECK ON THINGS TO SEEK ANSWERS AND THESE PEOPLE LIED TO THEM AND ACTED LIKE STUPID WOMEN, TO PROTECT THEIR "SO CALLED " HUSBANDS. I APPLAUDE THEM FOR TRYING.

JJ | 8:21 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Anon,
Is taking in everyone and sorting it out later the way you want our government agencies and justice system to function? Just "round up the usual suspects" no matter what the collateral damage. I would hope not. Why do you seem so ready to believe everything CPS tells you?

Susie | 8:50 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

I just don't understand you people condoning the fact that the polygamists kept getting younger and younger wives. The proof is there. Unless, you are men who yearn to get by with this.

JJ | 8:53 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Where was the evidence against the 304 cases that have been dropped? What about what those parents and children went through while CPS did their thing. The Texas Supreme Court found that CPS and the court acted improperly. I don't claim that the FLDS are a perfect society, but I do insist that they as Americans have the same rights as the rest of us and the proper processes and letter of the laws should have been followed. I believe that when a good number of the issues at hand are removed from Walther's court and hit a higher court we will see a different story than the one being presented to the public by CPS.

As for the KGB reference, what do you call an agency that can in general, not just Texas, step in and remove your child on an anonymous call with no evidence of wrongdoing? I'm all for protecting children, but nation-wide statistics show that our children are in more danger from those who claim to be there to protect them. By removing all the children and not following their own rules, CPS caused harm. There is no justification for that.

x | 9:11 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Re: Curious,

I wish that you could come to our state that I live in, because the CPS isn't very good about checking out tips or complaints on children in real danger. I know of two children that have died from horrible crimes because of the parents of the children and CPS not doing their job after having several complaints about the children and their silbings being in poor condition. These complaints were from the school and neighbors. CPS of texas isn't all that good either, at least i think because they came by my sisters house to check on her. A neighbor that was selling avon called on her because she had 4 babies and three teens in the house by herself. The avon lady thought she was runnign a day care that was illegal. She had 7 kids but only one adult. The CPS came in and wanted proof of a day care liscnes. My sister told CPS that they were her kids and no day care was ran at her home. CPS wasn't buying it until my sister produced 4 birthcertificates that stated she had quads. CPS had backup ready to take her babies for no reason!

zxcvbnm | 9:23 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

It is about time that the parents of those children get CPS in a court room.
SCOTEX, and the 5th US circuit have had their say and with luck have prevented a repeat of this CPS sideshow.
It is now time to punish the CPS zealots for removing 304 innocent children from their families and causeing financial and emotional hardship for theinnocent families.
A case and raid based on gossip in order to collect "evidence" that has only fueled the gossip that started this mess, has led to persons that were never at YFZ testifying against the only person now held by CPS.
Let some legal light be shed on the State of Texas and the extra-legal tactics used by State agencies and perhaps all of us will be protected from CPS and their tanks.
One picture of a man in prison with a 12 year old girl and diary ramblings of teens wanting to marry are nothing more than overreaction to a moot point and worrying about intentions that are teenage fantasy.
Everyone says prosecute the act.....where are 304 acts of illegal behavior......oh right....CPS now admits that there were none. Pay for the mistake!

R | 9:33 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

//JUST THINK OF ALL THE CASES, YOU READ IN THE NEWS,//

How about the case of little Jessica Scoville of Georgia?

R | 9:37 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

//I just don't understand you people condoning the fact that the polygamists kept getting younger and younger wives. //

Yep, they keep getting younger and younger wives all the time! Soon they'll be marrying fetuses.

gretchen | 10:00 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

if the flds is such a great group in which to raise kids, why did they lie thousands of times about who their kids were or were not, about their own names,relationships,and ages, and why have so many people that used to be part of this horrendously backward and lie-based cult said "it's about time" when the raid occurred???

NICE TRY R | 10:26 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Marriage is not abuse, no matter what the age. Marriage is a religious ceremony much like that of being baptized at 8 years old, or christened as an infant. It is a religious ceremony, and harms no one. You'll have to come up with a better example of abuse than that. That's the same reasoning Texas is trying to cram down everyone's throats while they are #1 in the union for underage sex. Those are two different things.

TOO BAD GRETCHIN | 10:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

So far the only solid evidence of anyone lying has gone against the State and CPS. Everything FLDS has said from the beginning has proved to be true. You cannot find even one lie printed on TRUTH WILL PREVAIL website, but Main Stream Media has posted thousands of lies against FLDS, and continues to do so. Main stream media is a government propaganda machine. They will even try to tell you they flew to the moon, and many have believed it.

Gal50 | 10:55 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

This is a case that should be filed because the courts will now have an opportunity to sort out this situation from both sides.

The posts above state legitimate pro and con arguments, which indicates that there is no clear cut answer as to whether what occurred was reasonable or not.

It appears that all but one of the monogamous couples were on the path to polygamy. They were simply young men who had taken on only one wife. The practice of polygamy doesn't justify removal of children or the need for CPS monitoring anyway.

On the other hand, one needs to question the judgment of parents who desire to live among men who commit child sexual abuse and to have their children sleep under a picture of an abuser. According to Texas, about 30 of the men were married to underage girls. It is prosecuting the ten cases that occurred in Texas.

This case is about power. The court didn't like the lack of cooperation among the FLDS and the FLDS did not like the interference of outsiders into their lives. The court/CPS won in the short-run, but who wins in the long-run has yet to be determined.

Why just this sect? | 11:39 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Why just this sect? There are other relgious sects with different values living in other states. Look at the practices of the Huiterittes in Montana, They do not let their girls attend any schooling past the age of 8. BOys are taken out of all schooling at age 10. Thats not legal for the rest of us. Lets over ride their relgion, and steal the Huit. kids and make them follow our concept of norm. Why just punish this one relgion when other sects are holding different practices with their children also? We should be fair in stealing everyones children that do not belive as We do.

zxcvbnm | 11:40 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Just a quick question. Are there statistics kept on CPS "false alarms"?
How many "false alarms" are there as opposed to cases filed?
How many cases filed by cps are proven?
How many "proven" cases are overturned.
How many "saved children" are placed in greater danger?
If statistics aren't kept then why not?

We have a lot of accusations about CPS incompetence but little objective "evidence" by either side cited.
Some way has to be devised to measure and oversee the results of CPS decision making in every case that they handle. Why not start with a data base .......raw numbers that document every report made and follow up, including input from the children removed from households when they reach adulthood.
For better or worse the state injects itself into the raising of children......monitor the results.

Questions? | 11:41 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

About 25 years back, my family an myself lived up near the North Dakota, Canadian border in a small town. The town had a very small LDS Branch we attended. My wife and I were actually questioned by the local children welfare people about our "Cult", and why we were raising our children in such a "Stern" religion. They did not approve, but knew nothing about the LDS people or relgion. This experence has given me much more tolerance towards the FLDS and others. Texas made one heck of a mistake this time.

TWO FACED | 11:52 a.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Our nation under George Bush is out preaching the "Democracy" religion and forcing it upon other nations, just as Texas is doing to the FLDS. Do you not think other nations are noticing what Texas is doing is two faced? We are supposed to be a nation of freedom, but have terrorism in our own government against it's own citizens in Texas.

John Pack Lambert | 1:30 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

I think they will have a very good case of malicious slander attempted by CPS. The fact that they identified a woman in her 30s as under 18, and their story about the number of broken bones which was never accompanied by even one credible case of physical abuse makes the whole thing seem a case of religious persecution.
To add to this they have not once identifed sexual relations with a pre-pubescent child, thus making this a set of statutory rape cases and not cases of pedophilia.
I think there is a very strong case for CPS having engaged in intentional and unjustifiable libel and slander.

common sense | 1:57 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Everyone of these parents beleive the doctrine of Warren Jeffs, they raise thier children accordingly.
Yes, It is without a doubt, endangerment of children. When they are being taught from birth, whatever ONE man says, YOU DO!
Parents are responsible for seeing that children are safe, and not raised in a dangerous enviroment, whether that be emotional, mental, physical or sexual abuse.

John Pack Lambert | 1:58 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Yes,
People feel so cooperative with the authorities when they barge in with a tank, and then demand a girl who does not exist and who is allegedly being abused by a man who is not there.
The person at the gate put the posse into phone contact with Mr. Barlow, and this should have keyed people to the fact that they should slow down and figure out what was really up. However they just rammed themselves in and sent all the children to Concho Concentration Camp.
There are no laws against raising your children in a "cult". Just because you do not like a group, does not meant they are inherently criminal.

John Pack Lambert | 2:04 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

The 11:41 poster really illustrates why we need to limit the power of child protection agencies.

Why question CPS? | 2:53 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Our family had experiences with CPS in two different states (neither Utah nor Texas, by the way). In both states, we were investigated because someone didn't agree with the way therapy and medical treatment we gave out Down Syndrome son.

One complaint was by our early-intervention caseworker's supervisor--our caseworker supported us. Several years later, an acquaintance made anonymous complaints. ALL our positions were upheld by our peditricians and the therapists with whom we were working. All complaints were found to be without any merit and unfounded.

BUT, we are now on record as having been investigated for child abuse, even though it was not in any way what the normal person could call "abuse." It was a "different" and "not mainstream."

Having been in plain English threatened with the loss of my child, I feel for anybody who is at the mercy of CPS! They don't listen to parents, barely to doctors--one worker refused to even check with our son's doctor!

AND, at the very same time in BOTH states, children under CPS oversight died of abuse!

Our son is totally healthy, reads fluently, and is a part-time service missionary. If we'd listened to CPS, he wouldn't be!

re: John Pack Lambert | 6:01 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

I admit I'm not a huge fan of the FLDS but, like you said, not liking a group doesn't make the group inherently criminal. On the other hand, here is a list of some things that WOULD make a group inherently criminal:
- numerous underage "marriages"
- numerous child labour law violations
- welfare fraud
- tax evasion
- aiding and abetting known fugitives

Jeepers | 7:40 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

Re:John Pack Lambert.

You're description of what would make a group inherently criminal describes corporate America and lots of mainstream families.

Except for the underage marriages - and for that, just put in promiscuity, and hey... what you've described is as American as apple pie.

Do you know of ANY Community that doesn't have those crimes on the front page of the local newspaper....

Funny thing - CPS and LE is letting it happen in every community. Even Texas which has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the nation.

CPS should be out rounding up the pregger girls at the local junior and senior high schools - and the boys/men who impregnated them.

Oh. Wait. If they're close to the same age, it's okay. Just 'prom night' happenings - kids will be kids.

Sheesh.

common sense | 9:08 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

There are underage girls in every state getting married, with permission from their parents. Filing the legal documents, getting a marriage license.
Flds doesnt do this, because they have MANY wives, and that in itself is illegal. And so is bigamy!!

PAPER_WORK | 10:49 p.m. Oct. 2, 2008

POLYGAMISTS: "OUGHT TO SHOW WRITTEN PRENUPTIAL CONTRACTS!" ?

SIGNED: RECKIPS

=

Texas will pay | 6:10 a.m. Oct. 5, 2008

About time I hope this suit will nail Texas to the wall and more suits will follow.
A federal suit should follow for the civil rights that were ignored by the state of Texas.

HEIDI | 7:56 p.m. Oct. 6, 2008

GRETCHEN.....HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY LIED THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!!!! THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE THAT HAVE LEFT PEACEABLE AND HONEST THAT HAVE NOTHING BAD TO SAY THAN THE VERY FEW SMALL BRAINED BIG MOUTHS WHO KNOW NOTHING BUT LIES!

Grandpa Phil | 2:18 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

I for one - a Constitutionalist - am glad to see the FLDS finally taking Texas CPS to task. No amount of money can make up for the anguish and heartache of having your children taken from you or the pain suffered by the children who were physically removed from their mothers' arms and taken away. SHAME on Texas CPS for what they did to those children. GO FOR IT FLDS!!!!!!

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