Deseret News | Reader comments: Town's fears of FLDS easing

Reader comments
Town's fears of FLDS easing

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Oh brother! | 4:05 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

It's the boogie man! It's the boogie man! Run and hide! Run and hide! Save yourselves while you still can.

What a bunch of trash.

Not the article itself - that's well-written, but the premise that in this age, people are still so paranoid about what they don't understand.

Instead of walking up to the front door and sticking out their hand to say 'hello,' they get out their guns and barricade their doors because of false stories, innuendoes, and out and out lies about a peaceful living culture that prefers to be left alone and not buy into the same crap we do.

Good grief.

Maura | 5:52 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Glad that folks can learn more about what's happening with the FLDS in our community. At this time thereï¿½s at least 6 FLDS properties here, 5 of which were purchased for over $2 million total, "the largest known cluster of land holdings outside of the FLDS-controlled communities of Colorado City, Ariz. and adjacent Hildale, Utah,"
one reporter wrote.

We would definitely not object to being able to openly speak with all members of the FLDS here - men, women and children, as we do with other neighbors when we meet them at the PO or store. That would be great! I can't personally say if Step Up! would host a meeting where an FLDS member spoke as we've completed our series of 3 community meetings where we were honored with excellent speakers who volunteered to help us learn more & the opportunity was never given .

We are deeply concerned for the people of the FLDS, as well as for the rest of our community, as they are under a number of leaders who have been indicted or found guilty of numerous crimes. It is our desire to educate everyone involved so we will not be vulnerable to similar crimes.

They tried to say "hello" | 6:50 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Residents in the Westcliffe area tried to meet their new neighbors and say "hello". One lady took a plate of brownies to the FLDS living next door to her in an effort to welcome them to the neighborhood. The FLDS neighbors REFUSED to even open the door! They just hid behind the curtains.

Why were they so secretive? Why wouldn't they answer the door? What were they hiding?

Comments continue below

zxcvbnm | 7:35 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Doesn't anyone get it. They wany to be left alone.
Why not leave them alone? They don't bother you. You don't bother them.
If you knock on the door and they don't open it perhaps it just means they want to be left alone.
Go home and speculate about anything you wish to speculate about. Heck..write a book about what you think is going on just be sure to put it on the fiction shelf.
You could buy binoculars and stand back a distance if you want to see something.........then they might put up a fence....lol.

Crimes? | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Maura wrote:

It is our desire to educate everyone involved so we will not be vulnerable to similar crimes.

>>>What crimes are you referring to here?

* the crime of infanticide?
* the crime of sodomy?
* the crime of fornication?
* the crime of adultery?

I don't think you'll find much of that, if any, amongst the FLDS.

You'll have to look in the mirror.

nosugrof | 8:57 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

These people feel they have good reason to be suspicious of outsiders. Amish want to be left alone and are respected for it. The FLDS want to be left alone and are hated for it.

gretchen | 9:07 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

the flds practices "lying for the Lord" from the time they are very small, so even if any of them were to "speak at a meeting," there is a very good chance that their"speaking" would be well-laced with numerous half-truths and outright lies. They have PLENTY to hide, and the winsome-sounding line, "we just want to live peacefully" is a smokescreen for, "we just want to continue our illegal practices without interference." Read the numerous books by ex-members. Look up flds101 online and let your stomach churn. I would NEVER want them as neighbors and I think it is an utter disgrace that people all over the US west are being forced to endure their presence as "neighbors"now.They DO NOT want to be "neighbors" to anyone, ever, since they view all non-flds as "going to hell" and that's a real pillar of what they believe. They are one of the very worst "religious" (or otherwise) groups in the US today, bar none, and that opinion is based on about 5,000 hours of my own research and some talking with a few ex-members that I have been able to do. They are a law-flouting, national disgrace.

It's America | 9:26 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Only in America can people flaunt the law under the banner of religion. Last time I checked, polygamy was against the law in Colorado. We're not talking about neighbors with funny habits, we are talking about people committing crimes and rubbing our faces in it. Is Texas the only State with an Attorney General who will not tolerate this abominable crime?

duaneh1 | 9:51 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008

These people are scared of outsiders and rightfully so, we try to seize their children, currently in process of stealing and robbing their trust in the twin towns, and we wonder why they are afraid of us? Gosh, who wudda thunk?
IMO the attitudes reflected by some of the posts here are a National Disgrace.

Gal50 | 12:15 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

I come from PA Dutch stock and I can tell you that the Amish don't wish to be left alone like the FLDS. The Amish manage markets, furniture companies and tourism businesses and are friendly people. When the Amish break the law, their cases often enough end up being heard by the Supreme Court which rules in the favor of them. The Amish have an opportunity to leave the community when they are teenagers. The Amish do not impregnate their children. They don't build giant temples on pastoral land. The Amish would not refuse a plate of brownies as they are capable of being nice to their neighbors. When the Amish school shooting occurred, outsiders were very generous with their response as they like the Amish. The Amish have funds to deal with the economic side of problems. They value being self-sustaining. Nevertheless, the Amish were strong enough to set aside their value in order to accept the kindnesses of outsiders. I've never heard of anyone complain about the Amish as there really isn't anything much to complain about. I would have no problem living next to the Amish, but I would worry about living next to FLDS.

duaneh1 | 1:29 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

The FLDS are not friendly to outsiders for inexplicable reasons. If someone shot up an FLDS school, most outsiders would be very happy. Some Amish have been accused of molesting children both adolescent and prepubescent, but we must treat them as individuals! Some FLDS have been accused of having relations with near majority teens but remember, their guilt is collective since they are FLDS.
Amish are GOOD people, FLDS are BAD people.
Remember everyone, Amish prairie skirts are blue or black and they often wear white scarves, FLDS prairie skirts are pastel colored. Just a headï¿½s up to make sure we direct our bigotry and hatred toward the right ones. This has become an issue in Colorado since Amish and FLDS live in the same area. To quote the Wet Mountain Tribune-a local CO paper
ï¿½Members of the FLDS should not be confused with the Amish and Mennonite families living here.ï¿½

Grandpa Phil | 1:54 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

zxcvbnm is right. If the people next door want to be left alone, leave them alone. That works in Colorado just like it does here in NC. The FLDS have reason to be distrustful of strangers and I can't say I blame them. There is enough misinformation out there to fuel more than a few teeth knashings by the likes of gretchen and some others. If they commit a crime, treat them like anyone else who commits a crime. If they don't, then treat them like anyone else that abides by the law and wants to live in peace. I heard the story about someone allegedly taking brownies over to their house and the FLDS refusing to answer the door. Sounds like something made up to fuel the fire. More of the same no matter where they go. Sounds more like an indictment of the Neo-Christian attitudes out there than the FLDS.

so great | 2:02 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

thank you texas and colorado for taking some of the stain in southern utah away!!!

Anonymous | 3:07 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Maura

"We would definitely not object to being able to openly speak with all members of the FLDS here - "

Have you offered for any of them to come to your meeting? How come all you refer to at your meetings are anit-FLDS crusaders?

By the way, indictments are not proven crimes, they are ALLEGATIONS. What crimes were you referring to that have been proved in a real court, not in Barbara Walthers (another FLDS hater) court?

Have any FLDS members committed crime in your neighborhood? Have they hurt you personally? Do they have guns?

NO! NO! NO! to all of the above. Then what are you afraid of? Sounds like you're afraid of your own shadow. "Oh, they haven't talked to me. I think they hate me." And what if.....what if....

Sounds like your community has the problem. Maybe you should look in your own back yard for the crime, or in your school.

duaneh1 | 4:05 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

I wonder what the crime rate in Eldorado Tx was before...and after the FLDS moved in.

zxcvbnm | 5:16 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Way to go Maura. The problem with open dialogue with flds members is the name calling starts and the gossip based accusations start flying.
Many accusations have proven false or wildly exagerated but still they have a habit of being brought up again and again. From education to simple legal rulings facts are distorted or simply ignored.
FLDS members have tried to answer questions....but the answers are twisted or misconstrued.

John Pack Lambert | 7:43 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

To crimes,
I think your point is good, although I think you chose the wrong crimes.
Let us see what crimes they might fall victim to.
A-an FLDS man marrying their daughter when she is 15. Well, not as long as the FLDS don't open the door, so don't worry.
B. An FLDS man beating their grandchild (from a failure to prevent crime A) and breaking his ribs. Oh wait, Sarah and her stories were a myth, well take that one off.
C. People getting fradulent welfare money. This does not directly hurt you, and as a regular citizen knowing people will try it, you can't do anything.
D. Someone marrying more than one wife. Unless you think FLDS men falsely represent that they do not have a first wife, which is not the case, this is an unlikely crime.
E. The FLDS killing all the dogs on their (the FLDS) property. The problem with this is, A. there is no compelling evidence to support this happened at Colorado City, B, I am not sure that killing dogs is criminal, and C since they do it on their property it will not hurt you as a neighbor.

John Pack Lambert | 7:53 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

While Warren Jeffs has been convicted, last I checked he was only one man and did not qualify as "leaders".
Indictments are accusations not convictions. The case merely has to be plausible.

zxcvbn | 8:50 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

Nice of you to bring up the dogs Lambert. It seems that after an attack by a dog on a child Jeffs ordered the elimination of all dogs.
Some say cruel...others say effective. I live near a small Tx. town that had a stray dog problem. The city council declared open season on the animals. Seems like ole Jeffs fits right in here in Texas.

duaneh1 | 10:56 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008

The FLDS build temples on pastoral land, that is another good reason for hating them, they deface the beautiful West Texas landscape. Such horrible people they are. FLDS=Bad, Amish=Good

Me | 7:17 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008

Gretchen said:

"They have PLENTY to hide, and the winsome-sounding line, "we just want to live peacefully" is a smokescreen for, "we just want to continue our illegal practices without interference." Read the numerous books by ex-members. Look up flds101 online and let your stomach churn....
that opinion is based on about 5,000 hours of my own research and some talking with a few ex-members"

Sounds like all your information came from FLDS haters. I guess Texas will have to keep looking for all that crime. Either the FLDS are just really good at hiding it, or it doesn't exist. I tend to lead towards the latter, since 1 by 1, all the lies about FLDS are being disproved. Texas is doing a good job at uncovering the truth, which is that there is very little, if any crime among the FLDS. At least way less than there is in "mainstream" communities.

zxcvbnm | 9:47 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008

Now the FLDS is being criticized for building a church in "pastoral land". The only thing "pastoral" in that desert are the crops and improvements made by the flds,,,,,,,,,get real.

As far as "gretchen"....she posts under several names on several sites. Same worn out accusations and little if any proof of anything. It seems that the pages of Carolyns book are getting a real workout as "gretchen" thumbs through the playbook looking for another accusation,,,,,,someone needs to buy her a new copy.

leave them alone? | 1:51 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008

ok - we'll leave them alone. and the first time the neighbors hear a child or girl crying, they're going to check it out. And the first time they see one of the adults hit a child, they'll hit the adult twice as hard. The adult uses a stick or belt to spank the child, the neighbor can use a stick or belt to protect the child.

You ok with that? Because the way they raise children, there's got to be a lot of crying going on. Perhaps a good slap with a stick or belt would straighten out the adults, just like they think it will do to the children.

I'm ok with that if you are...

Perhaps if the neighbors told them the ground rules (above), they would just move out to an unpopulated area. If they're going to abuse children then they need to get out of town. (And you can't raise children in the FLDS code without abusing them so there it is.)

Bradley | 5:10 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008

When you have a religious community who, by virtue of their religious beliefs, looks to one man as THE "perfect example" of how they are to pattern their life, then you have a serious problem if THAT MAN breaks the law in any way shape or form.

What if THAT MAN turns out to be a pedophile? What happens to the poor little children if THAT MAN not only likes, but also marries and rapes little 12-year-old girls? And as if that isn't bad enough, he arranges marriages for the other old men to marry little girls too. What's wrong with this picture?

Do they have guns? They absolutely have guns, beyond a shadow of a doubt!

JANE | 5:33 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008

WHAT YOU SAY IS WHAT YOU ARE. ANYTHING YOU SAY THE FLDS HAVE DONE, HAS HAPPENED IN YOUR TOWN. HOW CAN YOU JUDGE THEM.

Bradley | 5:55 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008

Jane, I think your mother is calling you for dinner.

Of course it happens in communities all across the nation.

However, there's a major difference here in that THE MAN whom all FLDSers are supposed to pattern their life after is a pedophile. He imposes pedophelia upon all the members he "has had a vision" that the old men are to marry little girls.

zxcvbnm | 6:07 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

Re: Leave them alone.... Try this.....call the law. The situation that you have described does not exist and if it did beating the adult as you described is assault and both of you can sit in a cell.
Just be sure that when you hear the screams that you identify them as human, we have had enough false alarms about non-existant abuse. Remember "Sarah"....the non victim of a non-crime.
This whole affair has been blown out of proportion by gossip and false accusations. Throw in a few unfounded fear and a "save the Children at all costs" mentality and every household in this country will be invaded by do-gooders with a cell phone hearing screams that do not exist.
Now there is talk of guns.....oh brother! Five rifles were found on the ranch for a population of 700 people. I can point to 5 guns per family in Texas with guns and both groups have a right to have firearms. It seems to me that flds needs to increase their inventory quite a bit just to be "normal".
Hysteria.........belts and guns.......just more unfounded fear caused by gossip mongers.

Grandpa Phil | 7:10 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

AS usual, well said zxcvbnm. Same old rhetoric by "gretchen" and the bigots. The Supreme Court just affirmed that it is the individual right of all Americans to own and bear arms; however, now we hear that the FLDS might actually OWN some. Why is it that the FLDS should be denied the rights that the rest of us hold dear? That is bigotry. Defense against bigotry and hate mongering are the very reason some Americans own weapons in the first place.

Roosevelt Reader | 7:26 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

The way Maura is trying to educate the community of Westcliffe about the FLDS is the same as a group of non LDS in Salt Lake City inviting a Baptist minister from a southern state to come and teach them about their LDS neighbors.

Brian Olson | 7:34 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

As a resident who lives just outside Westcliffe, this issue has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the law.

The FLDS is all about polygamy, basically treating women like broodmares.

Polygamy is AGAINST THE LAW. The group is buying huge chunks of property, not only in Westcliffe but adjacent communities as well.

Why? Because they've worn out their welcome in other states and in the case of Texas have been told not to make any long term plans about staying.

So more and more of them will show up in the Westcliffe area. They'll arrive in the dead of night, will be hidden behind tall fences and will slowly envelop the community.

One fine morning, we'll all wake up with them in charge and those of us who follow the law will be forced out.

We've all seen the pattern before, in Guyana and Waco. Sadly, society waits until it's too late, then we have a mess.

realitycheck | 8:44 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

re zxcvbnm 6:07am

no - I'm not going to call the law. These people are expert at getting around the law, and I'll treat them the same way they treat their children. I'll be nice to them when they are proper to their children, and I'll do to them what they do to their children when they abuse them.

why would you have a problem with that? what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You're lucky I don't stick the adults in isolation and force them to listen to stories about Santa Claus and the Easter bunny for hours and hours a day for 20 years. That would be treating them like they treat their children.

Instead I'll merely perform whatever physical acts they do to their children, but to them twice as hard. Because they're bigger. And should know better.

You know they beat their children. We all know it. You cannot impose as many rediculous rules on children, and get them to obey, without physical force at a young age. So there it is. And I'd gladly go to jail for protecting a child. Besides, no jury would convict me.

realitycheck | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

by the way, zxcvbnm - the men are cowards so it would never get to violence. they are sheep that prey on the only ones they can - the weak that trust them. And the kids would certainly be appreciative of not waking up in fear every day.

It's too bad the sermon s can't be curtailed but thats their right to drive fear of everything into their children. Must be nice to have the law on your side when destroying the future of countless children. Oh well - just more sheep. At least the children won't get physically beaten on my watch...

to zxcvbnm | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008

"the situation that you have described does not exist".

what? Are you kidding? or just slow? of course it exists - on a daily basis. The entire FLDS religion is based on fear. How can you possibly believe that there are no child beatings? It is impossible to get children to obey so many crazy rules without "putting the fear of God" into them at a young age - and that's done through physical violence.

You really have the blinders on. Perhaps if you weren't so biased in their favor you would see exactly what is going on to these young children.

Of course, most true "bible-thumping" people (religious zealots/extremeists) treat their children the same way, so it's not just the FLDS. The FLDS just hide more so they can get away with more.

But of course there's always you and Grandpa Phil, who both I'm sure are "spare the rod, spoil the child" kind of guys. It certainly works to keep kids in line - and the FLDS have more lines than they have common sense.

It's just too bad, after all these years, the FLDS still hasn't learned how to raise children without fear-based indoctrination.

Leadership convictions? | 5:27 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008

A number of comments above said there's been no convictions of leadership, or implied "only" Warren Jeffs was convicted, their prophet whose word is binding and whom they follow unquestioningly. John PL wrote: While Warren Jeffs has been convicted, last I checked he was only one man and did not qualify as "leaders".

In not too many minutes on Google, found the following, and doubt it's a complete list of leadership convictions:

Warren Steed Jeffs September 2007 In Utah, Prophet Warren Jeffs convicted on two counts of rape as an accomplice.

Seth Steed Jeffs May 2006 Pled guilty to knowingly harboring and concealing Warren Steed Jeffs

Kelly Fisher found guilty in July 2006 of sexual conduct with a minor and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor.

Vergel Jessop, 47, pleaded no contest to child abuse, in Arizona, Dec 2006

David Bateman, 49 was convicted of sexual conduct with a minor and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor.

Rodney Holm 39, convicted of third-degree felony bigamy and two counts of third-degree felony unlawful sexual conduct with a minor 16 or 17 years old in August 2003.

No need for concern for the children?

Grandpa Phil | 10:23 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Bad call again RC. When are you EVER going to get it right? You make sweeping accusations against others of us who comment in here but you are wrong about us as often as you are about the FLDS. I have 9 children ages 33 to 2 and have never spanked any of them - EVER. Discipline has nothing to do with inflicting pain. My wife and I believe that any punishment must befit the "crime" and resolved long ago that there would never be any physical punishment of the children. I don't have a clue how the FLDS discipline their children but I know it is not my place to preach to them about it. from what I have seen of their children so far, they are a FAR cry better behaved than non-FLDS kids their ages. I see typical pioneer stock kids raised the way my grandparents raised their kids. That may seem outdated to some but those grandparents raised some pretty good kids who were able to tough it out through the Depression and days of WWII. Kids these days panic at the thought of having to put up with such hardships. So much for a realitycheck.

realitycheck | 10:49 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Ah, Grandpa - when will you open your eyes? or do you prefer to be naive?

"pioneer-stock kids"??? Sorry, but in case you didn't notice, it's not the 1800s anymore. The FLDS children deserve to be able to live in the 21st century, and choose their future.

I know you pine for the good ole days, Grandpa - but those days are gone. Wake up to a new world, where people can do amazing things if given half a chance. To bad these kids stand no chance at all...

And if your supposed 9 children had to follow the insanely strict rules imposed by the FLDS, you can bet that only way you'd do it is with corporal punishment.

Of course the FLDS children are well behaved. They have no mind of their own and are scared to death of what God, their "prophet", and their parents will do to them if they disobey. Anyone can raise obedient children if you put the fear of God and everything else into them.

So much for your reality, Phil.

zxcvbnm | 12:31 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Raise your own kids RC.......and quit the broad generalizations anout families you know nothing about. FLDS members have posted here and you seem to ignore their denial of your slanderous tripe.

re -zxcvbnm | 12:49 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

I'm not going to quit until these kids get a fair deal. these kids have no choices in their future. maybe that's ok witrh you, but it's not ok with me.

If you actually spent time thinking about how all of this affects the child's future, you would maybe provide more logical comments - instead of just saying "mind your own business". That's the standard FLDS line "mind your own business".

hey grandpa | 12:53 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

how many of your grandparents kids went to college? how many work construction versus other careers? compare that to the FLDS and you'll be suprised.

of course, I'm assuming your grandparents didn't isolate their children and that they did in fact support them in their future endevours (sp?).

Grandpa Phil | 1:25 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

College wasn't as important back then as it is now. My Dad joined the Army out of high school and spent 30 years serving his country well. None of his 7 brothers and sister worked construction - another mark you missed. As usual, you missed the point entirely. You make blatant generalizations and allege horrendous parental atrocities and none of the facts bear them out. But, I don't expect that to change anything as you are immune from being confused by the facts. What you call a "fair deal" for those kids is nothing short of a deprivation of their rights to be raised within their own family as their family sees fit. People like me will fight the intrusion of people like you any day. You have no right to dictate or decide what is "right" or "fair" for other peoples' children.

Grandpa Phil | 1:37 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

What are you going to do RC, take it upon yourself to MAKE the FLDS parents release their children from bondage and oppression? That makes you sound like a Texas CPS official, or worse. SO WHAT if it's not OK with you? Who cares? Spend your time forcing your beliefs and standards on other people and their children and eventually you will find yourself facing off against someone like me in a confrontation. That person will probably press a .44 Magnum against your forehead and pull the trigger. Then, you will have far more important, relevant, and eternal things to concern yourself with. Hypothetically speaking of course.

Grandpa Phil | 2:08 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Thanks for printing that one DN. Wasn't sure if you would. 'Nuff said on the subject. I'm done here.

realitycheck | 3:53 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

if that's what it takes to give the kids a fair shake in life, then bring it on, pops.

you're so worried about the parents that you couldn't care less about the children. Fine for you. Not fine for me.

By the way - it's unclear to me what I have forced on anyone. I guess you read my comments and they become force? The only forcing that's being domne is the forcing of the children to remain in FLDS subculture or leave everything they know behind.

realitycheck | 3:56 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

and Grandpa - you need to actually read my posts. If you had, you'd realize I was saying that probably none of your parents or you or your children worked in construction, whereas almost all FLDS men work construction. You got to choose what you wanted to be when you grew up, as did your parents and your children.

Don't you think the FLDS kids should have the same opportunities? guess not...

to grandpa | 4:46 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

by the way - loved the 44 magnum line. I prefer Glocks myself, but that's just me. I wouldn't get too froggy with all that Dirty Harry talk if I was you though.

I'm mostly amazed that I give an opinion about some children being isolated and indoctrinated by religious zealots and I get a "I'm gonna shoot you with my 44 magnum" response. From a guy called Grandpa. Wild.

Anonymous | 5:12 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

CPS just announced a duel will be held on the steps of the TexasCapital building between Merril Jessop and Angie Voss.
Merrill will be packing a 44 mag while Angie prefers the lady Smith and wesson.
The winner will decide the educational future of the flds children and bear all expenses.
Angie will have a tank as backup of course.

realitycheck | 6:07 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

darn - I thought it was gonna be me and gramps. With zxcvbnm thrown in with gramps so it was an even match.

oh well.

zxcvbnm | 7:39 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Gramps can handle it himself....he's quite capable.

Grandpa Phil | 6:53 a.m. Oct. 20, 2008

Just as I thought. I make a hypothetical statement and y'all turn it into a threat. Made my point exactly. People throw around hypothetical allegations about the FLDS and y'all turn them into perceived threats to God and Country and our American way of life. Y'all are a STITCH!!!

By the way, bring the tank and something to tow it away with. Capable, I am.

re phil | 2:26 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008

you amaze me, grandpa. you defend the abuses of thousands of children, but when someone sticks up for them you want to pull out a gun.

and you never said how my comments forced anyone to do anything. Where's your indignation for the people that have been forced to follow all the crazy rules these people have? You know most of them believe the rules are hogwash but can't do anything about it because they'd lose their family.

your priorities are way out of whack. and ok - you can have a tank too.

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