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Another FLDS child 'nonsuited'
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Joey | 3:06 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
Proving a negative (parents are not abusive) takes time. It would be the same if
they took all the kids from any neighborhood.
realitycheck | 4:16 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
Joey -
good thing they didn't take kids from a neighborhood. They took kids from one location - a ranch. With one address.
And these "parents" aren't really parents anyway. They're simply bad babysitters with a million rules (most of which are actually bad for the children.
Good parents keep their kids safe - they don't pimp out their 12 yr old daughters. And good parents prepare their children for life. Since the adults aren't even prepared for life, it would be impossible for them to prepare the children.
by the way - these parents are abusive. Raising your child to be a sheep is abuse. And since the parents are so pathetic they cannot even decide what to put in their head (they let someone else tell them what they can and cannot read, watch, and listen to) - the children are also being raised as such. What kind of children will these kids become? more sheep.
I guess as long as they stay out in the desert and don't mingle their diluted DNA into the general population, it doesn't really matter. (Unless you're one of the kids - but they'll never know the difference anyway....)
good thing they didn't take kids from a neighborhood. They took kids from one location - a ranch. With one address.
And these "parents" aren't really parents anyway. They're simply bad babysitters with a million rules (most of which are actually bad for the children.
Good parents keep their kids safe - they don't pimp out their 12 yr old daughters. And good parents prepare their children for life. Since the adults aren't even prepared for life, it would be impossible for them to prepare the children.
by the way - these parents are abusive. Raising your child to be a sheep is abuse. And since the parents are so pathetic they cannot even decide what to put in their head (they let someone else tell them what they can and cannot read, watch, and listen to) - the children are also being raised as such. What kind of children will these kids become? more sheep.
I guess as long as they stay out in the desert and don't mingle their diluted DNA into the general population, it doesn't really matter. (Unless you're one of the kids - but they'll never know the difference anyway....)
Bill Medvecky | 4:44 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
Joey,
It looks like Reality check lives in Texas and is starting to worry about the lawsuits that are now coming from AT LEAST 287 children, their parents and their grandparents.
I wonder if reality check was one of the good old boys who lost the opportunity to wed his 14 year old bride when the FLDS came into town.
That would explain his lame attempt to keep the child abuse line of CPS going.
It looks like Reality check lives in Texas and is starting to worry about the lawsuits that are now coming from AT LEAST 287 children, their parents and their grandparents.
I wonder if reality check was one of the good old boys who lost the opportunity to wed his 14 year old bride when the FLDS came into town.
That would explain his lame attempt to keep the child abuse line of CPS going.
Comments continue below
re: Bill Medvecky | 6:01 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
"I wonder if reality check was one of the good old boys who lost the
opportunity to wed his 14 year old bride when the FLDS came into town."
This is what the FLDS apologists have descended to? This is equivalent to saying "I know you are but what am I?" and just as pathetic, juvenile and transparent.
This is what the FLDS apologists have descended to? This is equivalent to saying "I know you are but what am I?" and just as pathetic, juvenile and transparent.
Joey | 7:50 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
Realitycheck just has a phobia about cult mind control. He's paranoid and
delusional. He's stated before that he would rather have been raped in
foster care (chance of rape in foster care greater than 50% by some estimates),
than raised in the FLDS. To each his own.
zxcvbnm | 8:14 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
Hey yall....rather than the personal attacks against RC why not focus on the issues.
From the Creek | 8:47 p.m. Sept. 12, 2008
Hey RC, nice to see you and zxcvbnm still around. :) Sorry I've slacked
off and haven't been around much, but I'm back.
RC, have you seen the article on education on Truth Will Prevail? How ya gonna dispute that? FLDS were scoring higher over all than national or state averages.
I agree with zxcvbnm(that's a cool name to type, btw.) Let's focus on the issues. The simple fact is, Texas screwed up. If we expect to have any freedoms remaining in our country, we need to have our elected officials held responsible for their actions. I'm not saying you can't prosecute people, even FLDS, for crimes. What I'm saying is, don't break the law to enforce the law.
RC, have you seen the article on education on Truth Will Prevail? How ya gonna dispute that? FLDS were scoring higher over all than national or state averages.
I agree with zxcvbnm(that's a cool name to type, btw.) Let's focus on the issues. The simple fact is, Texas screwed up. If we expect to have any freedoms remaining in our country, we need to have our elected officials held responsible for their actions. I'm not saying you can't prosecute people, even FLDS, for crimes. What I'm saying is, don't break the law to enforce the law.
zxcvbnm | 3:22 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
"an effecient and effective investigation" was the motive behind the
control of the children.
Great......289 children effeciently and effectively cleared.........the interogation is over for 289 children.
Of course the adult children don't count in the effecient and effective numbers, or do they?
Sis months of "effecient and effective" investigating has CPS still not able to provide the six men indited with the "evidence" collected.......and six months of investigation has one girl protected from a man in prison and a missing unindited father.
So how do these "effecient and effective " investigations work?
Are we absolutly sure that Jeffs and Merril won't be able to communicate with the 289 free children and if so.........why not 290?
Glad to see that the investigation was effecient and effective. Just why dos CPS want a do over? Wasn't the investigation "effecient and effective" enough"? Oh heck.......just go get the tank and start again.
Great......289 children effeciently and effectively cleared.........the interogation is over for 289 children.
Of course the adult children don't count in the effecient and effective numbers, or do they?
Sis months of "effecient and effective" investigating has CPS still not able to provide the six men indited with the "evidence" collected.......and six months of investigation has one girl protected from a man in prison and a missing unindited father.
So how do these "effecient and effective " investigations work?
Are we absolutly sure that Jeffs and Merril won't be able to communicate with the 289 free children and if so.........why not 290?
Glad to see that the investigation was effecient and effective. Just why dos CPS want a do over? Wasn't the investigation "effecient and effective" enough"? Oh heck.......just go get the tank and start again.
War and Jeffs | 4:41 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
don't break the law to enforce it? Then do not protect the monsters who
abuse chidlren.
opiuy | 7:57 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
I agree with zxcvbnm. Leave RC alone.
Teaching children to be sheep is bad. Especially when it comes from people who follow some wacked-out leader.
Oh wait, it was Christ that said to be as little children and feed his sheep. Sorry.
Substituting your own believes, no matter how noble, for someone else's, no matter how stupid, is exactly the reason we all left England.
Raising your children in your beliefs, however bizare, isn't abuse. Forcing parents to raise their children according to gospel of the majority, the state, or just some random tyrant like RC isn't abuse either. It's evil.
Teaching children to be sheep is bad. Especially when it comes from people who follow some wacked-out leader.
Oh wait, it was Christ that said to be as little children and feed his sheep. Sorry.
Substituting your own believes, no matter how noble, for someone else's, no matter how stupid, is exactly the reason we all left England.
Raising your children in your beliefs, however bizare, isn't abuse. Forcing parents to raise their children according to gospel of the majority, the state, or just some random tyrant like RC isn't abuse either. It's evil.
Andrea | 8:47 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
realitycheck,
You are not helping the situation by being negative. You need to stop seeing them as the strange other and start seeing them as people. While I am not necessarily pro flds, I do keep an open mind. I am sure that most of the parents try to do the right thing for their children. Abuse happens all over the country and it is not surprising that it also happens in the FLDS. I am not condoning the practice of abuse I am merely saying that it happens everywhere and is not isolated to the FLDS. Not everyone in a neighborhood is abusive because one household is abusive on your street. Being hateful is not going to help the situation and reinforces what the FLDS are told out the outside world.
We need to look at the issue at hand. Focus on legal aspects and keep your strong feeling out of it.
You are not helping the situation by being negative. You need to stop seeing them as the strange other and start seeing them as people. While I am not necessarily pro flds, I do keep an open mind. I am sure that most of the parents try to do the right thing for their children. Abuse happens all over the country and it is not surprising that it also happens in the FLDS. I am not condoning the practice of abuse I am merely saying that it happens everywhere and is not isolated to the FLDS. Not everyone in a neighborhood is abusive because one household is abusive on your street. Being hateful is not going to help the situation and reinforces what the FLDS are told out the outside world.
We need to look at the issue at hand. Focus on legal aspects and keep your strong feeling out of it.
from the creek | 9:28 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Yes I saw the figures, would you like to tell us where those numbers came
from?
Since No other agency seems to have ANY numbers Flds childrens education??
were these numbers made up by Flds?
Since most boys are picked to work construction sites from the age of 13, seems to me those numbers wouldnt gel.
Since No other agency seems to have ANY numbers Flds childrens education??
were these numbers made up by Flds?
Since most boys are picked to work construction sites from the age of 13, seems to me those numbers wouldnt gel.
to the FLDS pro molestors | 9:33 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
You can spin things any way you want, try to mix up any issues and continue to
use outragious analogies, but the facts will play out in court as it already has
with Warren Jeffs their leader. Indictments are being made for child
molestation and child rape. There is alot of eveidence that is still being
looked at. You all know in the end their will be some jail sentenced for child
molestors and the FLDS will either try harder to cover their illegal tracks or
actually change and grow and allow females to mature a little more before tryin
to force them into marriage with old men.
common sense | 10:11 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Mr Medvecky
I beleive you have done enough harm on your own. Threatening a Judge, Head of CPS, the Governor of Texas.
I beleive you have done enough harm on your own. Threatening a Judge, Head of CPS, the Governor of Texas.
zxcvbnm | 10:39 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
War is a perfect definition for this travesty.
War, by definition, is an absence of law. We even have tanks and troops in the picture and major court rulings against the evasion of the law by CPS.
I guess the "Hugo Grotious" definition of war fits.
No law in Texas......now I get it.
To Andrea | 11:01 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
"abuse happens all over the world." So in other words, because abuse
happens in many places in the world, we should not focus on what is happening
with the FLDS practices of marrying off underage girls to older men that they do
not know, be fore they even know themselves? Murder happens all over the world,
so should we not focus on gang violence?
To both sides | 11:05 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
No matter how you spin things, use outragious analogies, or try to misdirect the
issues. We all get emotional over this but in the end, it will be decided in
the courts. Not on this forum. Thank goodness!
chomama | 11:19 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
I actually agree with realitycheck. It's one thing to raise your children
to be religious. It's another to not teach them about life and simply keep
them away from everything so that is all they know. And then to make it so if
they want more out of life they have to forsake everything they know,
that's really bad.
If the FLDS would have an open mind and let kids go out in the world and still come home, that would be good. but when the kids have to choose between the only thing they know (FLDS) and doing something with their lives, that's just not right.
If the FLDS would have an open mind and let kids go out in the world and still come home, that would be good. but when the kids have to choose between the only thing they know (FLDS) and doing something with their lives, that's just not right.
realitycheck | 11:27 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
yes - the FLDS 15 yr olds scored equivilent to the outside 17 yr olds. So
they're smart kids. SO WHY DO YOU STOP TEACHING THEM AT 15???
The FLDS 25 yr olds also scored like outside 17 yr olds. So the learning ends at 15 (or 17 depending on how you want to look at it). Real good for the kids.
The fact is - these are smart kids and the FLDS hold them back at every turn. They get to learn until they are 15 and then they either get pregnant or they're out hammering nails.
Can't believe you all would even try to say the FLDS people are as educated as everyone else. Even their "college graduates" simply earned a certificate from an on-line college. In 10,000 FLDS, there may be 20 bachelors degrees.
Why would people that are so incompetent that they cannot even raise decent children without isolating them and lying to them - why do they continue to have so many babies? they cannot even raise the ones they have....
boggles the mind.
The FLDS 25 yr olds also scored like outside 17 yr olds. So the learning ends at 15 (or 17 depending on how you want to look at it). Real good for the kids.
The fact is - these are smart kids and the FLDS hold them back at every turn. They get to learn until they are 15 and then they either get pregnant or they're out hammering nails.
Can't believe you all would even try to say the FLDS people are as educated as everyone else. Even their "college graduates" simply earned a certificate from an on-line college. In 10,000 FLDS, there may be 20 bachelors degrees.
Why would people that are so incompetent that they cannot even raise decent children without isolating them and lying to them - why do they continue to have so many babies? they cannot even raise the ones they have....
boggles the mind.
zxcvbnm | 11:56 a.m. Sept. 13, 2008
The source for the testing of children is posted........look it up.
The laws and rules broken by CPS have been addressed by SCOTEX and the US 5th circuit.......look them up.
The quotes by Crimmins, Voss and Meisner are out there ....look them up.
The accusations by the book peddlers are out there.......oh yes.....they are still whineing...........289 innocent children are freed by the State of Texas.......look it up........after a six month investigation.......read CPS media releases.
The "evidence" gathering methods and rules compliance by CPS needs a do-over.......get it.
There really isn't much to spin.......CPS shoots itself in the foot with each press release.
Go ahead and cirrect the spelling if you feel a need to criticize.......cirrect, get it.
From the Creek | 12:50 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
RC,
Where do you get your figures for FLDS 25 year olds?
I have to agree with you on one thing -- there are a lot of bright folks among the FLDS. But for you to say that because of being FLDS, they're held back in their education and abilities is nonsense to the extreme. Just as among any other group of people, there are those who excel at certain skills more than others. I was in school until I was 17, almost 18. So were all my brothers and sisters. Now, I'm getting educated in the school of real life.
Where do you get the idea that all the FLDS get their degrees from online college courses? I took one online course in C# programming, but that's just one person, and I can name a lot more people I KNOW went to traditional college than who took online courses.
As for the source for the test scores, you can look them up at the Arizona Department of Education.
Where do you get your figures for FLDS 25 year olds?
I have to agree with you on one thing -- there are a lot of bright folks among the FLDS. But for you to say that because of being FLDS, they're held back in their education and abilities is nonsense to the extreme. Just as among any other group of people, there are those who excel at certain skills more than others. I was in school until I was 17, almost 18. So were all my brothers and sisters. Now, I'm getting educated in the school of real life.
Where do you get the idea that all the FLDS get their degrees from online college courses? I took one online course in C# programming, but that's just one person, and I can name a lot more people I KNOW went to traditional college than who took online courses.
As for the source for the test scores, you can look them up at the Arizona Department of Education.
zxcvbnm | 1:24 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Ok so the talk has returned to education......FLDS puts the Arizona test scores out there and RC whines about possibly fake scores. The Creek puts the Arizona course out there...RC goes off on college .
The flds site references 40 certified teachers.
RC whines about 20.
Just to stir the pot...........Texas allows 17 year olds to remove themselves from school......yep 17, no parental permission required.
Look at the Texas education stats and see where FLDS compares......heck, look at Texas education stats and see where the nation compares.
But wait.......Bush wants to model the nation on the Texas system. Now there is a topic.
In any case noone has to live up to RCs' standards.....it's still a free country......Just how did those kids score again.....wasn't it above the state average.....according to the state of Arizona. Ask CPS how the kids scored on their tests......that info is out there too. Teresa was tested.....her scores are public.....darn public records get in the way of speculation every time.
Common Sense | 1:55 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
How many, Doctors, Lawyers, Scientist, Researchers, College Professors amoung
Flds?
How many of those I mentioned above are WOMEN?
I know their are a few women nurses, teachers, emts.
But, Im talking how many of so called highly educated children become one of the above?
How many of those I mentioned above are WOMEN?
I know their are a few women nurses, teachers, emts.
But, Im talking how many of so called highly educated children become one of the above?
zxcvbnm | 2:30 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Can we get more absurd........Go ask Dr. Barlow how many of his fellow FLDS members are doctors.
The FLDS reference 40 certified teachers at their school.........check with the State Certification board.
Why don't you start the Warren Jeffs Campus of FLDS University at YFZ if education is such a concern of yours. Ask Dan Fischer to be the first to donate.
But be darn sure not to ask for matching Federal funds........ all that beast bleeding nonsense will get started again. Better yet, why not donate to educate some of those 23 year old "lost boys".
Joey | 2:41 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
I think people are getting off topic (higher education, "equal
opportunity") on non-relevant sociological issues, in an effort to
"prove" FLDS is "bad" environment.
The fact is, these issues are irrelevant to the legal issue of whether or not these particular non-suited children were abused so much that it was okay for the state of Texas to abuse them a little more, and put them in the inherently risky environment of foster care.
Sure, the FLDS live a separatist life. It's because they rightly see the violence and ungodliness of our society and want out. That's what the pilgrims wanted as well. It's how America got started. Americans have morphed from being the persecuted to the persecutors. I think the FLDS persecution should cause Americans to check their hearts.
The fact is, these issues are irrelevant to the legal issue of whether or not these particular non-suited children were abused so much that it was okay for the state of Texas to abuse them a little more, and put them in the inherently risky environment of foster care.
Sure, the FLDS live a separatist life. It's because they rightly see the violence and ungodliness of our society and want out. That's what the pilgrims wanted as well. It's how America got started. Americans have morphed from being the persecuted to the persecutors. I think the FLDS persecution should cause Americans to check their hearts.
common sense | 2:48 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
They closed the School!!! Because FLDS used the funds for items such as
airplanes, etc.
I beleive thats called defrauding the Federal Government! The janitors at the school made more money than the teachers did.
Joey, get a grip!! No one cares if they want to be separatist, as long as they dont blatantly break laws, which FLDS has done and is STILL doing.
I beleive thats called defrauding the Federal Government! The janitors at the school made more money than the teachers did.
Joey, get a grip!! No one cares if they want to be separatist, as long as they dont blatantly break laws, which FLDS has done and is STILL doing.
common sense | 2:57 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Wow 25 whole teachers out of what 8,000 flds? Dr Barlow and Dr Fischer got their
education because they were to serve the FLDS. Fischer left. Dr Barlow had two
practices, but lived at Flds ranch. but, his patients were exclusively FLDS.
Please tell me how many other doctors are Flds?
Please tell me how many other doctors are Flds?
Lilathe | 3:08 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Even Texas CPS didn't charge the FLDS with educational neglect. Texas CPS
agreed that the children were doing well and ordered them kept in home-school
(they were in private school on the ranch).
There is not one single parent from YFZ being charged with educational neglect.
There is not one single parent from YFZ being charged with educational neglect.
From the Creek | 3:14 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
To common sense:
The school owned one airplane, and for good reason. The county seat, Kingman, is approximately 5 hours away from Colorado City. It made sense for school staff to be able to fly in to any meetings necessary rather than spend all that travel time. You can come up with whatever speculation and conspiracy theories you want about what else the plane was used for, but the fact of the matter is, the investigation of the school in CC is over, nobody has been charged, and they're finally getting it out of receivership.
What laws are we blatantly violating right now?
The school owned one airplane, and for good reason. The county seat, Kingman, is approximately 5 hours away from Colorado City. It made sense for school staff to be able to fly in to any meetings necessary rather than spend all that travel time. You can come up with whatever speculation and conspiracy theories you want about what else the plane was used for, but the fact of the matter is, the investigation of the school in CC is over, nobody has been charged, and they're finally getting it out of receivership.
What laws are we blatantly violating right now?
Common Sense | 3:23 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
From the Creek:
Dont give me that garbage! Austin Texas is 5hrs from where I live in Texas. Teachers travel by car all the time to Texas State meetings.
Its not speculation on my part, it was defrauding Federal Government, period.
You know it, And so does anyone else with half a brain.
Dont give me that garbage! Austin Texas is 5hrs from where I live in Texas. Teachers travel by car all the time to Texas State meetings.
Its not speculation on my part, it was defrauding Federal Government, period.
You know it, And so does anyone else with half a brain.
From the Creek | 5:11 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
How is it defrauding the government to own an airplane if it's used for
school use? It seems that if used properly it could save the state money. If
it was used for personal use, then yes I agree; that is defrauding the
government. But all you have are accusations of that. I don't know of the
school plane being used for anything other than school use. Possible? Yes.
But I really don't know. Show me some proof.
How you got "over 40" to dwindle to 25, I don't know. That number was teachers who were teaching at our private schools. There are a lot more certified teachers than that.
How you got "over 40" to dwindle to 25, I don't know. That number was teachers who were teaching at our private schools. There are a lot more certified teachers than that.
Anonymous | 6:25 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Look out creek.....It's the CPS style math. 440 =339.....13=37.....40=25. Bet they learned the math in Texas Schools.
common sense | 8:27 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Most of the certified teachers teaching at your school were from centinnel park,
not FLDS.
Okay, You say 40 teachers, thats still mighty slim for 8,000 people in FLDS.
Okay, You say 40 teachers, thats still mighty slim for 8,000 people in FLDS.
From the Creek | 9:30 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Wrong again, common sense.
Most of the teachers I remember when I was at school were FLDS. I had very few non-FLDS teachers in the 9 years I went to the public school.
And there are a LOT more than just 40 certified teachers in the FLDS. Not all of them have been teaching in recent years, though.
Most of the teachers I remember when I was at school were FLDS. I had very few non-FLDS teachers in the 9 years I went to the public school.
And there are a LOT more than just 40 certified teachers in the FLDS. Not all of them have been teaching in recent years, though.
edomi41 | 9:49 p.m. Sept. 13, 2008
Good Evening,
If you ladies and gentlemen ever get back to discussing how the FLDS marry off their minor children, I was wondering if anyone ever took the time to look at the minimum age of marriage for the different states. Just as a small example: South Carolina, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and New York allow boys and girls below the age of 16 to marry as long as they have parental consent and a court waiver (not that hard to get apparently.)
New Hampshire allows at 13 with parental consent and waiver. I wonder why CPS aren't pulling children out of those states since according to alot of posters - marriage at that age is child abuse. I think I can understand your fears of the FLDS, the Romans fed people to the lions because of the same fear they had with Christians.
Thank you and have a great evening. Good luck, Texas.
If you ladies and gentlemen ever get back to discussing how the FLDS marry off their minor children, I was wondering if anyone ever took the time to look at the minimum age of marriage for the different states. Just as a small example: South Carolina, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and New York allow boys and girls below the age of 16 to marry as long as they have parental consent and a court waiver (not that hard to get apparently.)
New Hampshire allows at 13 with parental consent and waiver. I wonder why CPS aren't pulling children out of those states since according to alot of posters - marriage at that age is child abuse. I think I can understand your fears of the FLDS, the Romans fed people to the lions because of the same fear they had with Christians.
Thank you and have a great evening. Good luck, Texas.
gretchen | 7:56 a.m. Sept. 14, 2008
amazingly, in spite of the enormous number of times ex-flds people have stated
in books, hearings, and public meetings that flds is a very abusive and
twisted group, in spite of the years of attempts to bring attention to the
numerous undocumented graves and odd deaths in the area this group comes from
up in UT/AZ, and in spite of the fact that top law enforcement people and U.S.
Senators now believe those same people and many others were lucky enough to
survive the flds and talk publicly about it, many are still defending flds. The
main reason for the "non-suiting " cases continuing is that the flds
are at least making a convincing show to everyone that they will comply with
decent child protection measures. They are excellent liars, maybe they are just
a little tired of lying right now, or maybe Warren's dictations have slowed
down and they don't know what to do. They may actually have noticed that
non-flds people have feelings, decency, and do not appear to be going straight
to hell, as per their definite beliefs. flds teaches ALL its members to lie to
anyone when necessary.
zxcvbnm | 9:31 a.m. Sept. 14, 2008
Oh Gretchen.........did you ever think that when reasonable and rational people without an agenda looked at the flds none of the hype sold by exflds was seen.
Did you ever think that since Jeffs has been locked up there has been little reason to fret about the overblown allegations.
If in fact the raid was needed did you ever think that it was two years late.
Lets not start another list of ex-flds allegations that proved false or CPS accusations that proved false.
CPS has freed 289 children after their "effecient and effective" investigation....30 million dollars to find a picture of a guy in prison
kissing a girl.........what a waste.
to zxcvbnm | 11:05 a.m. Sept. 14, 2008
Do you really believe that the brainwashing of young girls and marrying
them spiritually to old men is not taking place or has not taken place at the
YFZ ranch?
Honestly, in your heart do you believe the ex-flds are all lying and this is a conspiracy by them?
Do you believe the FLDS practices are right because it is their religion and that anyone can do anything they want under the banner of religious freedom, even if it steps on others basic rights?
Honestly, in your heart do you believe the ex-flds are all lying and this is a conspiracy by them?
Do you believe the FLDS practices are right because it is their religion and that anyone can do anything they want under the banner of religious freedom, even if it steps on others basic rights?
zxcvbnm | 11:48 a.m. Sept. 14, 2008
In my heart of hearts I believe that most of the allegations against the FLDS are false or blown out of proportion.
In my heart of hearts, in the day of consensual sex being legal between consenting adults, polygamy is no threat to society.
In my heart of hearts I believe that a religious body has the right to teach their children their religious docterine.
In my heart of hearts I believe a few FLDS members have broken the law.
In my heart of hearts I believe the State of Texas took the easy way out and believed the hysteria generated by exflds and over reacted to a situation that had been over for two years.
Even the Jeffs conviction for performing a wedding is a push......This mess was handled from the beginning by more than one state by making up laws and trampling on the rights of innocent persons.
A conspiricy by exflds is a bit of a stretch.... an attempt to keep alive some deep seated hate is more realistic.....as well as make a buck and keep alive a profitable cause.....oh poor me sells. Lost boys sell......23 year old men just need to get a job.
Anonymous | 2:01 p.m. Sept. 14, 2008
"So in other words, because abuse happens in many places in the world, we
should not focus on what is happening with the FLDS practices of marrying off
underage girls to older men that they do not know, be fore they even know
themselves? Murder happens all over the world, so should we not focus on gang
violence?"
That is not my point at all. I was saying that we should not demonize all FLDS simply for the practices of a few. There is a small handful of families at YFZ who have practiced underage marriage. Those people have done wrong and should be punished. We should not punish all the other members for the sins of a few. Most of the orders have from from Warren Jeffs and its fair to blame him but dont demonize the entire FLDS group because of corrput leaders. As I have heard say before "Absolute power will corrupt absolutely". I dont fell that its right to punish the entire group.
That is not my point at all. I was saying that we should not demonize all FLDS simply for the practices of a few. There is a small handful of families at YFZ who have practiced underage marriage. Those people have done wrong and should be punished. We should not punish all the other members for the sins of a few. Most of the orders have from from Warren Jeffs and its fair to blame him but dont demonize the entire FLDS group because of corrput leaders. As I have heard say before "Absolute power will corrupt absolutely". I dont fell that its right to punish the entire group.
to zxcvbnm | 3:09 p.m. Sept. 14, 2008
you did not answer my questions.
zxcvbnm | 3:54 p.m. Sept. 14, 2008
Read the answer posted at 11:48. Do not twist the words, do not make something more or less of what was written. Do not use the answer to get on a soapbox about flds atrocities.brainwashing etc.
The answer to your question was posted at 11:48.
Read the answer.....form your opinion...but refrain from more selfserving tripe that you seem to use as a springboard for more selfserving tripe.
Can you do that?
re: Anonymous | 8:48 a.m. Sept. 15, 2008
I agree that, in theory, we shouldn't punish all the FLDS for the sins of
the few (Warren Jeffs and those like him). However, the FLDS continues to
support, respect, honour and obey a manipulative pedophile.
THAT is why the FLDS is still getting lumped in with him. Any rational parent, after witnessing Jeffs' actions, would not still consider him their prophet/leader/president & CEO.
A rational parent would decide that Jeffs does not represent them and he is a sinner (FLDS members seem to love declaring who is and isn't a sinner so this should be right up their alley.) Any parent who loves their kids would NOT let them associate with or worship a known pedophile.
THAT is why the FLDS is still getting lumped in with him. Any rational parent, after witnessing Jeffs' actions, would not still consider him their prophet/leader/president & CEO.
A rational parent would decide that Jeffs does not represent them and he is a sinner (FLDS members seem to love declaring who is and isn't a sinner so this should be right up their alley.) Any parent who loves their kids would NOT let them associate with or worship a known pedophile.
common sense | 1:18 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
If your last name is Jeffs, Jessop, Steed, Allred, Barlow, Emack, Keate, or
Dutson and you lived on YFZ ranch, then these families took part in underage
marriages, either by giving their daughters, or marrying someones daughter
underage.
Andrea | 2:25 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
You are not looking at this rationally, you are looking at it subjectively from
the view point of your culture. People who grow up in the FLDS are told that the
Profit is the law and that he is always correct. This is inculcated into them at
a young age. When a parent is told that their 12 year old must marry Warren
Jeffs, they obey because that is what they have been told to do their entire
life. When other people witness this, they dont question it because they are
also told to obey the profit. I do feel that there is some blame in the adult
leadership for not following the laws for age of consent and laws for legal age
for marriage. Mothers who will not agreeing to follow recommendations that CPS
put into place.
realitycheck | 2:57 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
the only reason anyone defends the FLDS lifestyle (isolation, repression, a
million rules, total control of your life, what to do, what to read, what to
listen to, etc, etc, etc) is simply because they've never been out in the
real world.
If you had ANY IDEA how big the world is, and how much there is to do and learn, and how much opportunity there is - you would cut off your arm before you would deny your children all of that.
Either that, or you don't really care about them. You only care that they stay in your church.
Glorified babysitters with an attitude.
If you had ANY IDEA how big the world is, and how much there is to do and learn, and how much opportunity there is - you would cut off your arm before you would deny your children all of that.
Either that, or you don't really care about them. You only care that they stay in your church.
Glorified babysitters with an attitude.
zxcvbnm | 5:49 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
Oh just dandy.....more nonsense about those poor deprived FLDS folks never being introduced to our glorious society.
Many FLDS members have posted on this board and have stated in more than one way and on more than one ocasion that they have choices and have chosen their "lifestyle".
Flora "saved" two girls.......one chose to return. Carolyn "saved" her kids...one returned.
People need to stop trying to save persons who don't want to be saved....ease off the pop psycology long enough to realize that in a free country a parent has the right to teach their religion to their children. Get over this delving into other peoples business long enough to worry about your own children......not theirs.
realitycheck | 6:19 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
I'm not trying to save anyone. I'm giving my opinion of a group of
people that believe they have the right to take children and program them into
believing that they have no place in the world except as FLDS.
That the whole world is evil and their future is to hide in the desert and pray. That they are to work construction or make babies for their entire life.
These parents DO NOT TEACH RELIGION. They teach isolation and servitude. They convince young children that they should forsake their entire lives for some wonderland after they die.
Anyone can be religious. There are many VERY religious people in the world. But most (or at least the rational ones) allow their followers to HAVE A LIFE. Muslims stop and pray 5 times (or more) a day. They have a million rules too, and a more conservative dress code. But they're not afraid to send their children to good colleges.
There's supposedly 10,000 FLDS. I get around, and I've never seen a woman in a prairie dress out and about. Why not? Aren't they allowed out? Where are they all? Hiding in the desert, and their kids will do the same.
That the whole world is evil and their future is to hide in the desert and pray. That they are to work construction or make babies for their entire life.
These parents DO NOT TEACH RELIGION. They teach isolation and servitude. They convince young children that they should forsake their entire lives for some wonderland after they die.
Anyone can be religious. There are many VERY religious people in the world. But most (or at least the rational ones) allow their followers to HAVE A LIFE. Muslims stop and pray 5 times (or more) a day. They have a million rules too, and a more conservative dress code. But they're not afraid to send their children to good colleges.
There's supposedly 10,000 FLDS. I get around, and I've never seen a woman in a prairie dress out and about. Why not? Aren't they allowed out? Where are they all? Hiding in the desert, and their kids will do the same.
realitycheck | 6:30 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
and by the way - I can't even believe you said "they have chosen their
lifestyle".
Try to think about it. You're a 12 yr old girl. Since birth, you've been stuck out in the desert, with every one telling you exactly what to do, when to do it, etc. You haven't read any books except religious books and some doctored school text. You've been told to keep sweet and that you MUST obey. The penalty for not obeying has been witnessed by you many times.
If you leave, you will go to hell. If you don't keep sweet, you will go to hell. If you DO keep sweet, the men in your life will ensure you get a good spot in heaven. You're entire existence on earth is simply to do whatever is necessary to stay in the men's good graces because if you don't, then all the misery you've faced will be for nothing because you will not get a good spot.
So now you are fully indoctirinated. You will do exactly what you are told, and you will like it. If someone helps you leave, you'll go back.
They take children and steal their lives. Sick.
Try to think about it. You're a 12 yr old girl. Since birth, you've been stuck out in the desert, with every one telling you exactly what to do, when to do it, etc. You haven't read any books except religious books and some doctored school text. You've been told to keep sweet and that you MUST obey. The penalty for not obeying has been witnessed by you many times.
If you leave, you will go to hell. If you don't keep sweet, you will go to hell. If you DO keep sweet, the men in your life will ensure you get a good spot in heaven. You're entire existence on earth is simply to do whatever is necessary to stay in the men's good graces because if you don't, then all the misery you've faced will be for nothing because you will not get a good spot.
So now you are fully indoctirinated. You will do exactly what you are told, and you will like it. If someone helps you leave, you'll go back.
They take children and steal their lives. Sick.
From the Creek | 9:31 p.m. Sept. 15, 2008
RC, all you need to do is drive down to the Washington, UT Wal-Mart.
You'll see plenty prairie dresses there. ;) I honestly can't think of
a single time I went to Wal-Mart without running into someone from here.
The reason I'm where I am is because I really do like it here. I go out and about quite a bit. I see and work with a lot of good, fine people who aren't of my faith. But, there's also lot to not like about that "great big wonderful world" you speak about. I could get along just fine in it; actually, I already do. I'm more familiar with mainstream American culture than you think -- a lot more familiar than you are with my religion.
The reason I'm where I am is because I really do like it here. I go out and about quite a bit. I see and work with a lot of good, fine people who aren't of my faith. But, there's also lot to not like about that "great big wonderful world" you speak about. I could get along just fine in it; actually, I already do. I'm more familiar with mainstream American culture than you think -- a lot more familiar than you are with my religion.
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