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'Mulligan' sought over FLDS evidence

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  • Grandpa Phil
    Sept. 8, 2008 7:26 a.m.

    While that is hard medicine for CPS and their sympatizers to swallow, "TheCommittee at 4:13" is right. Well said.

    And, RC, to state that FLDS mothers and children appear to be happy because they are too indoctrinated to know they shouldn't be is the height of arrogance. Who the heck are you to say that none of those people are smart enough to know when they are being manipulated or abused. They seem intelligent enough to me. I don't know you well enough to know if they are as intelligent as you are but they are infinitely less judgmental and condemning. That in itself speaks volumes for me.

  • Grandpa Phil
    Sept. 8, 2008 7:13 a.m.

    RC, sorry you are so confused. We are not so concerned about parents rights and childrens' rights as we are about family rights. Depending on who you talk to (the UN for example), parents' and childrens' rights sometimes conflict. Nothing the FLDS do is ever going to please you. SO WHAT? The FLDS FAMILIES have rights - familial rights - that are protected by the Law of the Land. CPS trampled all over those rights and, at times, WERE malicious in their efforts to hurt those families. Does anyone recall the CPS worker who testified in court that, CPS did not want the children returned to the parents until the parents renounced their religion? Wow, what does that speak of? You say that the parents denied the childrens' rights far worse than CPS ever could? What planet did you come from? The public watched in horror as CPS workers lied to the mothers, ripped their children from their arms and stole them away. The US Supreme Court has said that familial rights are such a fundamental right that denial of such, even with the promise of an eventual hearing on the merits, is unconsciousable (sp). Parents + Children = Family.

  • Susan
    Sept. 7, 2008 1:12 p.m.

    JimB: You are absolutely right! This was a Major law enforcement raid, well planned out, they were ready for this for some time. All dressed-up/decked-out and ready to go - a "police state" for our "dangerous" world. Thinking the people would go along with this raid, they were obviously more prepared than the CPS. This needs some investigation.

  • TheCommittee
    Sept. 7, 2008 4:13 a.m.

    Reality check! This is NOT a game of golf. There should be no such thing as a, "Mulligan". This is a simple case of shoot first, shoot again, shoot some more, then ask a question of two. It's rather obvious CPS doesn't play by the rules anyway. This whole case wreaks of prejudice and bigotry. Just because certain FLDS don't respect the law regarding underage marriages, doesn't mean the whole bunch of them are lawless reprobates. If CPS wasn't sure of their case, to begin with, they should have waited until they were. This is a clear cut case of panic first, then apprehend, then conduct some sort of investigation, biased to support claims already made by CPS... The whole lawless bunch of thugs should be severely repremanded for their actions and the State owes many of these families a profound apology, at the very least and untold sums of law suit money, at the very most...!

  • realitycheck
    Sept. 6, 2008 9:13 a.m.

    re 9:29pm

    not sure why you wanted to repeat everything I said and then repeat it in your own words. We both said the same thing.

    our facts are the same. what's your point?

  • ToRealitycheck
    Sept. 5, 2008 9:29 p.m.

    You need to recheck your "facts".

    Texas got a call of abuse [a known bogus call from Colorado, not from inside YFZ].

    They went in to investigate, and the FLDS attempted to deceive just as they have been trained to do. [The FLDS showed state issued birth certificates and driver licenses which CPS said were forgeries. In court the documents were proven to be valid - CPS lied].

    CPS took the children believing there was massive abuse and children in danger, thereby overstepping their bounds. [The Texas courts ruled that CPS was unable to present any evidence of abuse and thus the children were to be returned to their parents - CPS lied]

    Court slapped them and they returned most of the children.

    Now CPS is trying to at least get the abusers, rather than just throw up their hands and say enough is enough. [CPS is trying to save face at the expense of innocent people. Prosecute those individuals for which there is specific evidence. Don't engage in a witch hunt against a religion you don't like. This is the USA and we should support people's constitutional rights to believe what they want to believe.]

  • realitycheck
    Sept. 5, 2008 7:44 p.m.

    Chai 6:21pm

    Yes - of course the women and children all look happy. You just proved my point. These women are too indoctrinated to know that their rights are being trampled by the FLDS. And by age 5, the children are too. So it's a lost cause.

    And a perfect example of what I would call abuse is the fact (well documented and readily agreed by FLDS) that most books are banned and most music is banned.

    Any adult that would let someone else tell them what to read and what to listen to is either totally indoctrinated, or simply pathetic.

    My assumption is that the FLDS followers are totally indoctrinated. Thinking it's the other is simply too depressing....

    Either way, they cannot use their own best judgement in choosing what to put in their head. That has got to be the result of some kind of abuse. No reasonable person would put up with that unless forced or coerced.

  • Chai
    Sept. 5, 2008 6:21 p.m.

    Two sided - have you heard even one woman/child from the YFZ Ranch complaining about their treatment by the men?

    Maybe the women are happy there - before CPS began their systematic abuse of them. The only thing I've heard the YFZ women complain about is the treatment and lies by CPS personnel.

    Hmmm...You'd think - these women and children have been given a perfect opportunity to escape from their oppression, and all they want to do is go back to the ranch and live with their families.

    Really abusive, huh? And those children are absolutely the most beautiful, healthy looking children I've seen...

  • zxcvbnm
    Sept. 5, 2008 5:59 p.m.


    This is not some simple mistake of made by a strained government agency.
    This was a miscalculated attempt by a bunch of overzealous misfits fed on a diet of Flora and Carolyn Jessops misrepresented tales.
    This is not the first time CPS has trampled the rights of parents. It is the largest case of misconduct.....not the first.
    This agency designed for the protection of children has deteriorated into a quasi police force made up of unaccountable bumblers and misafits.
    Where is the investigation Meisner promised four months ago?

  • Two sided
    Sept. 5, 2008 4:59 p.m.

    The problem here is that we have two groups of people who need to be corrected. The FLDS need to treat women and children with much more respect and dignity. Something needs to shake up their ways. But we also have a Texas CPS who is so prejudiced that they see more than is there and have given themselves more power than any government organization should have. The evidence is supposed to come before all of the charges. They thought that they could find what they suspected if they dug deep enough.

  • Joey
    Sept. 5, 2008 3:36 p.m.

    Since you think FLDS abuse their kids so badly, why is it that CPS just nonsuited 253 FLDS kids, saying the parents can take their kids back, even leave the state if they want to?
    Something doesn't add up.

  • realitycheck
    Sept. 5, 2008 3:12 p.m.

    This is such a waste of money. It's unclear to me why we would care whether these children live like this. By the time they are married (at 12 yrs old) they are already so brainwashed that there is no realistic way of getting them to understand just how badly their rights are being trampled by FLDS. Even if you remove them, they will just go back as soon as they can. They're simply not bright enough to grasp their plight.

    Given that lack of intellect, and the fact that their major contribution to society would be making more of the same, is there really any point in interfering with their lifestyle? The smart ones will get out when they are of age, and should we even care about the others? Has no one seen Deliverance and the effects of inbreeding? Do we really want more dueling banjos in general population?

    Aren't these parents in fact doing us a favor?

    I say leave them be. Texas should save their money for people that are smart enough to want freedom. If they'd rather be isolated and abused with no civil rights, let them.

  • realitycheck
    Sept. 5, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    @Unlike 10:20am and Grandpa Phil 10:39am -

    Well now you've thoroughly confused the issue. If you hate to see constitutional rights get trampled, why would you want these kids to go back to FLDS? They trample civil rights much worse than CPS ever could.

    So why are you so much more concerned for the parents rights than you are for the childrens rights? Or are you just like the FLDS where you believe children have no rights? Bred for work and babies - no need for rights?

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 5, 2008 2:41 p.m.

    Gal50: it 48% of the men participated in the underage marriages why were only 8 indicted

  • To Joey:
    Sept. 5, 2008 2:08 p.m.

    We all agree these kids are scarred for life, but that happened long before CPS stepped in.

    If nothing else, CPS has made the point to these parents that someone is watching over their shoulder. And, when they get too wild in their excesses, perversions, and abuse of children, the civil courts will step in and look into it.

    My biggest fear is that the overwhelming administrative burden assumed by Texas to protect these kids -- who are obviously in need of help -- will deter it and other states from helping kids in the future.

  • re: Joey
    Sept. 5, 2008 1:23 p.m.

    There's no need to be so melodramatic by comparing this situation to murder. The spotlight is already overcrowded with amateur actresses.

    I agree with you that it is time for change. It's time for the members of the FLDS to effect change within their own organization by directing their outrage at the leaders and other members within their group whose disgusting behaviour and deliberate flouting of the law have earned them this scrutiny. Some of them also need to take a hard look at their own behaviour, complicity and blindness.

  • realitycheck
    Sept. 5, 2008 12:48 p.m.

    the facts are:
    Texas got a call of abuse
    They went in to investigate, and the FLDS attempted to deceive just as they have been trained to do.
    CPS took the children believing there was massive abuse and children in danger, thereby overstepping their bounds.
    Court slapped them and they returned most of the children.
    Now CPS is trying to at least get the abusers, rather than just throw up their hands and say enough is enough.

    Well - I say enough is enough already. These are ignorant people. You can't solve ignorance with force. No matter what we do, they will go back to their old ways. Perhaps fewer underage marriages, but the practiioners will still be under the thumb of a group of posers telling everyone what they must do, and these people will continue to believe them.

    If this was about polygamy, no one would care. If this was about civil rights, the children's rights are being trampled by FLDS much worse than CPS could ever do.

    But it's trying to save people that don't want to be saved. What's the point in that? It's too expensive to teach them to think rationally.

  • Joey
    Sept. 5, 2008 12:29 p.m.

    Whether the agency's "misconduct is a result of willful or malicious wrongdoing" doesn't make much difference to the victim. The victim is dead. Whether he died through 1st degree murder or "just manslaughter," he's dead! These kids are scarred for life. Texas government needs to learn that it too should be held accountable when it hurts people whether out of malicious intent, wrecklessness, or unpreparedness, the result is the same. People were hurt. Time for lawsuits. Time for change.

  • MV
    Sept. 5, 2008 12:06 p.m.

    zxcv You are being too kind.

  • re: zxcvbnm
    Sept. 5, 2008 11:39 a.m.

    It sounds to me like CPS is merely overwhelmed by the unprecedented number of cases.

    It is unfortunate that things are not proceeding is as timely a manner as a typical case but it must be taken into account that, when CPS went into this, they were grossly misinformed about the number of children they would be dealing with and they simply did not have sufficient resources.

    I don't think the agency's misconduct is a result of willful or malicious wrongdoing and it should not be treated as such.

  • MV
    Sept. 5, 2008 11:32 a.m.

    Thank you Grandpa Phil. You worded that so well.
    THE PUBLIC is interested in seeing justice done.
    I am also watching "from afar." So are many others.
    We have watched and read from day 1 when the peaceful people of the ranch had their rights trampled.

  • Fredd
    Sept. 5, 2008 11:19 a.m.

    Does anyone deny the FLDS practise underage marriage? I'm imagining you could RICCO them for conspiracy to commit stauatory rape since as a group they condone and practise it.

  • to:Unlike FLDS apologists
    Sept. 5, 2008 11:01 a.m.

    It seems that you do not even realize that the FLDS religion has not existed for "over a hundred years," right?

  • Chuckles55
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:59 a.m.

    This whole thing is a two-edged sword. Texas and CPS are getting a come-uppance in this process. CPS's around the country often go to extremes to protect children, and rightfully so. However, in this case, Texas pressed their luck a bit far and got a whole passel of lawyers involved who will push this process to a final conclusion. Parents have rights and children have rights. Hopefully, a balanced decision will recognize both in this difficult affair.

  • zxcvbnm
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:44 a.m.


    There was no intentional deceit, no intentional plan to deny evidence to parents or attorneys."

    This says it all. In "good faith" CPS raids private homes on an unconfirned call. "In good faith" CPS sees things that aren't there. In good faith" 14 day individual hearings take a month to occur as a group.
    Now we are to believe that golly gee......good ole cps is doing the best they can and realy are trying to obey the law.
    Good try CPS......but almost following the law and the rules may work in Walthers court, but the appeals will bust you.
    By the time this zoo full of kangeroos gets finished with the kids the children will be 45 and on their 10th pregnancy.
    What a joke!!!!! Kinda sorta justice in Texas.

  • Grandpa Phil
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:39 a.m.

    I like what "@Unlike" said. That goes for me, too.

  • Grandpa Phil
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:37 a.m.

    Hey "Public Opinion as a Whole", please speak only for yourself and not for the "public". You do not speak for me. I have watched these events from afar (NC) and vested both time and money in my attempts to garner the public outcry against the Texas/CPS abuses of power under color of law that these people have experienced. I'm as interested as everyone else that justice be done to any and all lawbreakers but, as we have noted lately, the list of those is shrinking daily. It might come down to a handful or less and, if it does, I say lynch 'em - LEGALLY. If that handful dissipates in a cloud of smoke and mirrors, then I say go after the real abusers of authority; the ones who abused the children by wrenching them from their parents who have since been fully exonerated. Accountability and responsibility are a two-edged sword. Hold the guilty accountable but do it legally. If the system fails to do that legally, hold those in authority accountable, too. CPS wants a "mulligan"; however, they would be the first to scream, wail, and knash teeth if the FLDS asked for one. Nobody should get one.

  • Gal50
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:22 a.m.

    The FLDS are entitled to this evidence. The reason the members haven't received it is because the case is so large that CPS is having difficulty deal with it. This isn't a reason that stands up in court. It is probably easier for CPS to non-suit cases than to come up with evidence.

    CPS has stated that 48% of the men on the ranch participated in underage marriage, which could mean that they participated in statutory rape if they had sexual intercourse with their child "wives".

    The number of cases that have been non-suited has been about 50%, so one could supposed that the other children have been exposed to men (their fathers) who are suspected of having sex with one or more children. The problem for CPS is that unless a child was born to these underage wives or there is a journal detailing a sex act, there is no evidence that sex occurred as no one in the FLDS is going to testify to this. It will only be suspected that sex occurred.

    The court system typically removes children from sexual abusers and this has occurred.

  • @Unlike
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:20 a.m.

    I Beg your pardon but I am no FLDS apologist. Im a US constitution apologist, and will speak out whenever I see the constitution being trampled on, irrespective of whether or not I like the ones having their rights trampled.

  • Texas
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:18 a.m.

    Why would anybody in Texas worry about evidence? There are no human rights in Texas. Texas isn't even part of the United States. Just ask any Texan and they will tell you that they live in their own Republic. Why do you think the FLDS moved there in the first place. It was to get away from the law enforcing Utahns and Arizonans.

  • Public opinion as a whole
    Sept. 5, 2008 10:06 a.m.

    My post was perhaps not allowed, because I stated the obvious: there are supporters of abuse and crime here that are being published in total opposition to the rest of public opinion, which wanted these crimes investigated and were outraged with the rest of the free world. The extent of the crimes and the cost is on the heads of the criminals who are not cooperating after a lack of law enforcement that helped create such a large problem. That enforcement is finally taking place is great, however costly.

  • Unlike FLDS apologists
    Sept. 5, 2008 9:57 a.m.

    All the FLDS apologists still flock to these boards is amazing - don't pretend because you post these first comments that you represent the rest of the public who is outraged about polygamy and its crimes. The FLDS are responsible for the extent of these crimes after one hundred years, and after virtually no law enforcement. To complain, balk, and commit not coorperate illegally is outrageous after all this time. The public wants this investigated and the crimes stopped - charges have been filed and persons indicted. It has nothing ot do with "grandstanding" to finally enforce the law and have victims of abuse finally removed from an organized control and abuse group. The supporters of this abuse, via their psychological conditioning, still come on these boards showing the extent of their inability to see that their acts are illegal and immoral - and the whole free world is trying to help the women and children come out from this slavery and inequality.

  • re: Sagacious Inquisitor
    Sept. 5, 2008 9:38 a.m.

    No one is trying to destroy a religion.

    But it sure would be nice if the FLDS would follow the example set by other polygamist groups by not conducting and condoning underage "marriages." These groups are not being investigated and charged. They are being allowed to live in peace.

  • Og
    Sept. 5, 2008 9:08 a.m.

    Rules are rules, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If the Court is going to grant CPS a mulligan, it must grant the FLDS community a mulligan as well.

  • Phil
    Sept. 5, 2008 9:02 a.m.

    Texas, we are pathetic so that is our excuse to not follow due process.

  • Sagacious Inquisitor
    Sept. 5, 2008 8:40 a.m.

    Interloper,

    Grandstanding??? Really?

    Looks like the grandstanding is, and has always been, on the part of CPS and Judge Walthers.

    May we read your last line as follows? Since the difficulties of trying to destroy an entire religion with which we do not agree are so extensive, CPS should have recognized that massive scale and avoided this entire foolish debacle. The partisan judge would have been wise and right to never have colluded with CPS in attempting to unjustifiably sanction a non-mainstream group of people who are trying to live their lives as best they see fit.

    May such a politically correct grandstand never be set up at your doorstep.

  • shoot now ask later
    Sept. 5, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    When you seperate families, raid there homes, scare children, bring national attention to the state, react forcefully to a phony phone call...you don't get a do over. You get out of office, you lose your license to practice and you are excused from the bench. Not only that you owe hundreds of children an apology and in today's world that means $$.

  • Joey
    Sept. 5, 2008 8:14 a.m.

    Maybe Martha Emack needs to sue CPS for depriving her of her rights without cause.

  • Salem Mass.
    Sept. 5, 2008 7:54 a.m.

    Looks like a witch hunt to me.

  • Cosmo
    Sept. 5, 2008 7:15 a.m.

    Let us cut to the chase. Texas, how much money do you want to spend, now and when the lawsuits hit?

    CPS, how many of you want to loose your jobs, along with being dragged through the looming litigation?

    This whole situation has exploded in Judge Walther's
    face, and the Imperial Texas CPS. If I was the FLDS,
    I would petition the U.S. Justice Department,over Civil Rights violations, for starters.

    The ACLU could make a ton of money on this one, along with any enterprising attorney.

    Regardless of the purported issues,real or otherwise
    ,this case will be thrown out, and the FLDS will be exonerated in court.

    The whole situation has truly become a can of worms,
    and Texas, in this case, has blown it.

  • Interloper
    Sept. 5, 2008 6:11 a.m.

    The non-suits are actually much better for the FLDS than CPS handing over incomplete discovery documents. The defense lawyers are just grandstanding. Since the difficulties of trying to do discovery on a massive scale are obvious, the judge is right not to sanction the state.

  • Jim B
    Sept. 5, 2008 1:27 a.m.

    When did it become OK for the people that represent the law in this country to raid peoples residents, take their property and then try to build a case to justify what they did? Didn't there used to be something about probable cause that had to be considered? Can any law agency now use telephone calls from unknown people making unproved claims to raid your and my homes also? Where is the public outcry on the violation of these people rights?