I am a naturalized American citizen. I entered this country legally, did
everything within the law, and everybody else should do the same. Some people
say that if all the illegal immigrants are deported, the USA economy would
collapse, and I say, there are many people all over the world who have been
waiting for years and who have been doing everything by the book to come here
legally, please, deport those who break the law and bring the ones waiting
ASAP!!!Illegal immigrants are stealing their own children, yours and
possibly my identity!! that alone is a big felony that cost a lot of tears!!
illegals are moving to Utah and taken the few jobs available, open business
using someone elses identities, work as loan officers and borrow a lot of money,
buy mansions, and move around, and the ones left with the bills are the identity
theft victims. Don't blame ICE for separation of families, illegal immigrants
are responsible for choices made when they decided to either enter illegally or
stay illegally in the USA. We don't have medical insurance. My child was denied
CHIPS, because many children of illegal immigrants are using the program!!
Anyone who breaks USA laws are considered CRIMINALS! If you come to the USA and
break our laws to get here than you are a CRIMINAL. You are not a alien you are
our favorite solution to this problem. We decided Iraq needed to be a
democracy, right? To "protect Our interests." Well, Mexico needs to be cleaned
up and stabilized because of gross mismanagement and corruption, too. Let's
give them some incentive. Cut off trade, shut down the borders, crack down on
the illegals, and tell them that we can resume relations as soon as they clean
up their house. Wait aminute, do we actually get most of our imported oil from
Mexico and Canada? Huh? Something is weird, here.....Really,
people, the second commentator to this story has it right on the money and the
discussion could have ended there. Brutally decapitate any business
caught knowingly employing illegal workers. Dry up all of the job
opportunities, and the problem will rectify itself. A new form of state ID
cards would be an excellent idea. Don't expect the Feds to be able to
effectively run such a program. Let the states come up with solutions and
To anonymous: First let me say that I live in So. Calif., and you haven't a clue
what is coming your way. Due to illegal aliens and thier many, many anchor
babies, we know first hand what it's like for our children to get a horrible
education. Habla Espanol? 50% of illegals children drop out! And to: Illegals
don't pay taxes? 12 million illegals? Get real! If you add the illegals and
their Anchors, we have at least that many in California alone! Once an
illegal baby is popped out, they are entitled to free housing, medical, food
(wic)(food stamps), free education, etc...! So in your opinion, The money they
contribute with a tax I.D. #, earning minimum wage, is equal to more than all of
the above freebies.
Re: You Cool DownSince 1996, the IRS has provided tax ID numbers to
enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to pay taxes.
Nearly 8 million of these IDs have been issued--that's two thirds of the
country's 12 million illegal immigrants. They pay taxes using these ID numbers
because it helps them to get loans and enroll their children in school, and they
hope someday it will help them become legal citizens. The majority
(50-60%) of illegal immigrants have taxes withheld from their paychecks. They
pay $9 billion into Social Security every year that they will never get back.
And off course, all illegal immigrants pay state sales tax and property tax
(through rent), and bear some of the impact of their employers' corporate
taxes.The same year the IRS started issuing tax ID numbers, the
welfare reform act disqualified illegals from all means-tested government
programs except emergency medical care and K-12 education. So the majority of
illegal immigrants are paying the same taxes as you and I, but are denied the
benefits of programs like food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid, and
When did we start calling illegal aliens "undocumented" workers?
So it is okay with you that someone who has an education, speaks only english be
denied a job so that someone who is uneducated and speaks no enlish at all gets
the job that the english speaking person is more qualified for? I have been
denied a job for this reason, I have also been denied housing because I was born
in this country, and I have also been denied medical insurance(medicaid) because
of this.I was on the bus coming home from Ogden and a hispanic woman
was excited that she and her son were hired for jobs where they would be paid
under the table because of their legal status. She did speak both english and
spanish. I would even get a job at McD's but I would probably be not hired - I
don't speak spanish.I live near a swapmeet that was robbed a few
months ago - no one called the cops because of the number of illegals that
worked there. I live in West Valley and feel that I live in a
totally different country.
Every undocumented person I've known has been hard-working. I haven't asked
them about their tax situation, because people don't usually ask each other how
many exemptions they claim. Undocumented friends of my family: husband works
long hours (seems like 12 hours a day 6 days a week) at a dry cleaner, the wife
works 3 part time jobs in housekeeping at a local motel and two restaurants.
How is this not contributing?
When the pioneers went to Utah, they were technically "illegals".The
Romneys and Eyrings etc. have settled in Mexico, then returned for
generations.Many of your ancestors came sponsored to Utah for
economic reasons disguised as converts, then given land and work. Nowadays they
would be just as illegal.Belonging to the LDS faith should not
depend on having a piece of paper or not...these borders were not here in Book
of Mormon times and then this land was taken illegally.If MORONI
were alive, he would be an "illegal".
To: Cool Down People, These misguided folks that tell you illegals pay taxes are
not telling the truth. An illegal has to do one of 2 things, 1. Get paid under
the table, "No Taxes" or 2. Steal someone's identity, exposing them to
prosecution for not claiming enough income, being denied benefits because some
illegal has their identity or some other problem. The illegals who do use a
stolen identity claim so many exemptions that they have no taxes with-held, they
quit the job before someone catches up with them and can create accounts in the
tens of thousands for the unsuspecting person. Now tell me how this benefits us?
ALL THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE POSTED NEGATIVE COMMENTS ARE IDIOTS HOW CAN YOU SAY
YOU DO NOT WANT IMMIGRANTS I YOUR COUNTRY WHEN ALL HISPANICS WANT TO DO IS
SURVIVE, LIVE, AND PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILIES NO ONE REALLY OBVIOUSLY FULLY
UNDERSTANDS THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND HOW POOR THEY TREAT THEIR PEOPLE FOR
MINIMUM WAGES AMERICAN THAT ARE SITTING ON THEIR HIGH HORSE HAVE NOT BEEN IN A
SITUATION WHERE YOU WORK FOR 80 HOURS A WEEK AND BARELY MAKE MINIMUM WAGE WHICH
IS A DOLLAR TO TWO DOLLARS AN HOUR. IMAGINE SENDING YOUR CHILDREN TO SCHOOLS
WHERE THEY ARE NOT FULLY EDUCATED WHERE IT IS SCARY TO WALK INTO A HOSPITAL AND
WONDER IF YOU WILL COME OUT ALIVE OR WORSE. PEOPLE WHO MAKE COMMENTS ABOUT NOT
ALLOWING IMMIGRANTS ARE VERY NARROW MINDED WE ARE A FREE COUNTRY AND THE MORE
LAWS WE LET THE GOVERNMENT PUT OUT THE MORE WE ARE BECOMING LESS FREE TO THE
POINT OF SOCIALISM. DONT LET THEM FOOL YOU IT IS NOT JUST A PLOY TO STOP
IMMIGRATION IT IS MORE LAWS TO KEEP AMERICANS AT BAY TO HAVE LESS RIGHTS WE
SHOUDL ALL BE FREE TO CHOOSE WHAT IS RIGHT NOT WRONG
Could it be that we believe (more than most) in honoring and sustaining the law
of the land? ILLEGAL aliens are breaking our laws! Why not let drug sellers or
even those who break the speed limit off? Maybe we should, maybe we should not
welcome them here, but they are breaking our laws!If anyone goes to Mexico and
breaks their laws, what happens? We all know the answer don't we?
I'm glad that someone in the legislature is standing up to big businesses and
their pro-illegal immigration stance. Our legislators need to pass powerful new
legislation that goes after not only the criminal illegal alien, but also those
employers that negligently employ them. If illegals couldn't get jobs, we would
quickly see them going back to their home countries.
We need a guest worker program- a way to legally allow non-citizens who want to
work at undesirable jobs citizens don't want. It would go a long way to stop
the exploitation of illegals, allow them to participate in legal society, pay
taxes and feel like they can cooperate with law enforcement. Now, we have
otherwise honest people afraid to report crime because they fear they would be
targeted for deportation. I lived along the border in Texas and
Arizona and saw the sacrifices people made to give their families a better life.
I didn't see a lazy, free-loader in the bunch. They work a lot harder every
day than I have in my life. If I were in their shoes you'd better believe I'd do
anything I could to come here. Count your blessings that you were born here and
not there and quit judging people you don't understand.
if illegals "add" or "take away" from the economy. Don't care if they are
"good people." Don't care if their families are broken up.They are
ILLEGAL. Period. End of story. No discussion.
The problem isn't just with the illegals. The problem is with our gutless
federal government that can't muster the will to enforce the law. Far, far more
applicants for legal visas should be processed and approved expeditiously, and
the border should be patrolled diligently and violators punished. As it is, we
can hardly blame some illegals. They can see that they would have to wait many
years to come here to work legally, while their neighbors, good and bad alike,
cross the border illegally and go unpunished.
Illegal immigrants pay into social security and never get any of it out. This
is just one of the many ways that the US makes money off of and that citizens
benefit from illegal immigration.
To: How to fix Illegal Immigration,Here is how you really fix it:A Presidential order that gives anyone who is here illegally 30 days to
get out of the country or face 2 years in prison and a $50,000 fine. You also
tell anyone here illegally that if caught they will never be allowed to become
citizens of this country.So this is the message:GET OUT!
GET OUT NOW! OR PAY A FINE AND GO TO PRISON!Tell companies who need
workers to find legal immigrants or pay someone enough to live on and they will
have all the workers they want. We will all be saving millions of tax dollars so
who cares if a hamburger cost an extra 50 cents or a tomato costs an extra dime?
Stop coddling illegal criminals and bleeding heart liberal who want them here
buy everyone else to pay for it.
They're not "illegals." They are human beings.
LEAVE. Most of the people that want to accept illegals and help them are those
who have not had their neighborhoods infested. The problem is they come here for
a better life but bring their baggage with them. If it continues, in the not too
distant future, the citizens of the US will be broke from supporting leaches,
and Mexico will have just moved it's borders to the north a little.
The Sutherland Institute wanted to welcome those that are here committing ID
fraud and theft, with open arms. However, they couldn't answer a question from
a committee member on how many more we should accept and when and how would it
ever be stopped. The Sutherland Institute was standing up the best they could
for their cheap labor financial sponsors. This hearing was not
about arresting and deporting illegal aliens. It was about cutting off the
magnet that draws them to Utah, cheap labor employers, social benefits and weak
enforcement of our laws. The Sutherland Institute does not oppose these
magnets.There are plenty of folks in Utah that complain, but like
the weather, fail to do anything about it, other than sit at their computer.
Perhaps it would help to become involved with those that are doing something
such as: UMP (The Minuteman Project), CCII (The Citizen Coalition on Illegal
Immigration) or UFIRE (Utahns for Illegal Immigration Reform and Enforcement)
They all have websites and contact information.
To illegals...JUST LEAVE THE SAME WAY YOU CAME! Thank you!
Yes, the way to fix this is to make them legal but not citizens. Issue an id
card so we know who they are and so we can keep control. Make it easy and
legal to come and go as they please so they don't feel it necessary to bring
their families here, but revoke the privilege for anyone getting into any
trouble. At the same time treat them as welcome guests so we and they don't
feel like they are 2nd class.
The Sutherland institute has it correct. They know what they are talking about.
I abhor the Sutherland institute and their foolhardy pronouncements. Most of
these "trust babies" need to go out and get a real job instead of sitting around
trying to outsmart each other. If you read their report you'll notice how
absolutely condescending it is.For example they call illegal aliens
"neighbors who live side-by-side with us" and then raise these questions "Do
they have families like we do? Do they marry like we do? Do they divorce like
we do? Are their family structures like ours". Does the Sutherland institute
actually believe that these are burning questions which Utahns want answers
to?At the very least the Sutherland institute needs to acknowledge
that they are Libertarians, not conservatives.
Kudos to all who understand that almost everyone would love to improve legal
immigration. We are not a nation or state of bigots.Shame on those
who use racial politics to brand those who are simply tired of the burden
illegal aliens foist upon us. And by the way, the burden goes way beyond dollars
only...we are currently creating an immoral second class of people living in the
shadows - most of whom are fine folks that deserve our pity. Our inconsistency
in enforcing our laws is hurting them and us.Immigrants are welcome
here, but you have to do it right.
Round em up send em home... good idea! It's about time and none too soon. The
ones that I have known personally are some of the rudest people that I have ever
met. I am tired of them! TO-ILLEGALS---Your Mexico awaits you, so PlEASE leave.
There is no place in the USA for anymore law breakers.
Those who say the Immigration system is broken, have no idea of how it works.
The only change illegals want is for an open door to come and go as they choose.
That is not reasonable, they want to live here, benefit from our social and
medical services and send the bulk of their money to mexico to benefit their own
country. This has to stop.
I applaud the Sutherland Institute for their civil and courageous stand. It is a
privilege to have been born in this state and a privilege to welcome others
seeking the bounties this area has to offer.
"wet foot; dry foot" policy look it up. It's not just Mexico........
will solve the problem. He'll give them free medical care to encourage more
illegal immigration. Hope the legal immigrants and citizens can afford their own
Those of you convinced that illegal immigrants are a drain on our economy could
stand a little homework. The Wikipedia article "Economic impact of illegal
immigrants in the United States" is a good starting point. Plenty of economists
argue that our economy is better off because of migrant workers.Those who think illegal immigrants cause increased crime need to do homework,
too. Your assumption is contested by studies that have found crime rates to be
significantly lower for illegal immigrants than for U.S. citizens--probably
because they are afraid of doing anything that will put them in jeopardy of
being deported.Those upset because illegal immigrants don't have
proper identification should understand the motivation for driver identification
cards.Those who feel a pathway to citizenship would give illegal
immigrants the message that there is no penalty to breaking laws do not
understand the price illegals pay to be here. They live in fear of getting
caught. Employers exploit their status to pay them unfairly. They can't turn to
the law for recourse. They pay taxes but fear using public services.Try Elder Jensen's council: "Meet an undocumented person and come to know
their family." Their goodness might surprise you.
The intire State Of Utah is a Federal Law BreakerWhere are the FEDS?The Judicial Branch of Government is like a bunch of Gangsters milking the
PublicThe Courts are corrupt trying to employ LawyersThe Lawyers are
innorant of the Federal laws they are required to know.
Gee, I don't need any illegal doing my yard work. I find it nice to do it
myself. It's very good excise and gives me extra savings.
Your comments really show how out of touch with reality and racist many from
your University (who I've personally met) are.
If you've been watching the news, you've probably heard that california has a
$15 Billion dollar deficit this year. Los Angeles and Orange Counties have fired
countless teachers so that the student teacher ratio is increasing from 25:1 to
33:1. 20,000 state employees had their pay reduced to minimum wage, which ends
up being $266/week after taxes and benefits. These aren't rich business owners
who are suffering, these are poorly paid state workers, teachers, and
children.Among other government waste, a huge part of the california
deficit is due to the $10 billion per year that goes to fund welfare,
healthcare, and education for illegal immigrants. I know that it's a sensitive
issue because we are dealing with human beings, but if we don't take a stand now
and enforce the law, the general condition of our communities will continue to
deteriorate at an alarming rate and our debts will only increase.
Like it or not this is a continual invasion of our country encouraged by an
inept and horribly corrupt Mexican government that thumbs it's nose at the U.S.
while demanding that Americans atone for their sins. American politicians will
nonetheless continue to pander for the Mexican vote and ignore the pending
disaster. Most Mexicans I know are among the most agreeable, hard-working and
family-oriented people I know but their political culture has produced little if
anything good. If we do not drastically reduce the flow of immigrants from
failed societies we will soon inherit their political cultures and values rather
than assimilating them into ours. The American southwest will effectively
return to Mexico.
Sorry, folks, but "illegal" immigrants founded the United States of America and
fostered its expansion, mostly destroying the political, governmental, and
cultural systems of the land's previous inhabitants. Think what you want about
whether this was divine destiny, or whatever, but it is a fact. Does this mean we should go back in the "time machine" and start over? No.Does it mean we, today, are responsible for the acts of our
forefathers? No.Does it mean we we should disregard our laws or the
rule of law in our nation? No.Does it mean that bleeding-heart
liberals have all the answers on immigration? No.Does it mean we
should learn something from history, show some compassion, and come up with a
legal approach to immigration that fosters a humane attitude towards people,
families, and their lives? It does to me.It's just too easy to say,
"they're illegal, they're illegal, hang tough, throw them out. . . " etc. Complex problems require a thoughtful response, and heaven knows this
one is complicated.
I love all people, no matter what a person has done (Good or bad) there is
something good about them, and somewhere to start to build a friendship with
them. With that said, an illegal alien is that, a good person to some degree who
shouldn't be here! They came here wrongfully. It doesn't matter whether they are
Mexican, or Canadian, or European, or African, Asian or from Mars, they didn't
enter the country Legally or have overextended their "Welcome" by not leaving
when they were supposed too. HOW CAN THEY BE WELCOME no matter how nice they are
are? They broke a law and must face the consequences, GO BACK HOME AND COME BACK
LEGALLY! I get a kick out of everyone who complains when there is a "Raid" or
something, the fact is, they shouldn't be here, and they won't turn themselves
in. WE HAVE TO CATCH THESE PEOPLE AND SEND THEM BACK! No Amnesty, just go! Poor
family, the dad was abducted by the government now they don't have a dad, he was
deported! Well fix it, go to the Holding center and go back with HIM! SELFISH
FAMILY lets him go back alone! Some Family?
So if I went to Mexico illegally, took a job using forged or stolen papers, and
allowed the state to pay for all the medical needs of me and my family, do you
honestly think for one SECOND the Mexican government wouldn't throw my butt in
jail? I doubt they would just send me home to cross back into their country
illegally again. We need to take a much harder line on these law breakers.
Yes, they are people....people who don't care about breaking the laws.
Your rants (by posters here and by politicians in Park City) about illegal
immigrants refer to an 80% latino population, anyone with a brain concludes that
your rants are racist. Stop resting on your phrase about the "rule of law" and
recognize and admit your racist rants. The "illegal" immigration "problem" will
be eliminated by a stroke of the pen of the US congress / administration. Time to get to know your new neighbors, and stop hating them so rabidly.
Time for our gov't leaders to spend more time organizing a better education
effort for immigrants (and all students), spend more time speaking out for more
tolerance. Our legislative nerds who quote the present bad law need a dose of
reality - the existing law needs to be changed. Put your energy and effort into
updating and fixing, instead of propping up a bad law.
I just can't believe the comments that I read here. It seems that most of you
need a lesson in history. How about the CIA sponsored coup in Guatemala in the
50's and then 80's. Thousands of people died, and lots of them had to flee to
... the U.S. Nicaragua? Same story, first in the 20's then in the 80's. Do you
remember the Contra scandal that "our local hero" Reagan backed up? Yup, that
was Nicaragua in the 80's. People fleeing from Nicaragua to a safer place after
our valiant ambassador in Honduras (Negroponte by the way) supplied the Contras
from Honduras. How about Chile in the 70's? Another coup sponsored by our tax
money; thousands killed and a military dictatorship imposed. Argentina, Brazil,
Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Panam (how to forget that one), all of
these countries have suffered the anger of a foreign policy that doesn't allow
for independent DEMOCRACIES to work according to the mandate of the people.
Mexico is the prime example: NAFTA, and years of ransacking the country by
transnational companies in agreement with the local government. Accepting
immigrants is a bill that we owe that needs to be paid.
Then who will do the jobs the illegals are doing? Unemployed housewives of Utah
lawmakers? Yeah, right. I'm sure they're too busy hanging out at the mall and
gossiping on their cell phones to actually get a strenuous job.We
benefit from the labor of illegals, yet we put them down. That's intelligent.
Kick them out of the state, and who makes up for that lost production and tax
revenue, because they add to both. Are lawmakers prepared to jack up our taxes
if they kick out illegals workers and the taxes they pay?
My ancestors came to this country speaking English 300 years ago. So why are
there now people working here we cannot understand their mixed (NOT TRUE
SPANISH) language? It's hard to us sign language with these illegals who do not
know how to speak English. I'm quit fed-up the way things are going. I truly
wished these people would clime back underneath the same fences in which they
came here and leave.
People are tired of crimes being committed against them and their families by
illegal aliens. You call that racism? Far too many illegals bring crime,
drugs, and gangs that kill seven year olds to our communities. People are tired
of this and YOU call that racism. Get a clue on what racism is.
I am one of those people who were hit by a car driven by an illegal who did not
have a driver's licence or insurance. Their fault and my insurance paid to
replace my car that was totaled. While I am in favor of a guest worker program,
I am not in favor of individuals coming into the US illegaly. In Utah, the LDS
Church has contributed to this by allowing illegal immigrants to be baptized
members and then side-step honesty questions in order to attend the temple.
True, these are all people who for the most part are trying to improve their
lives. But, we are seeing an increase in crime and pressure on our welfare
system and healthcare system. This has to stop and stop now. Until we have
restructured the immigration laws, we need to enforce the ones we have now. Yes,
we need to go after both employers and individuals who have broken the law.
These people have accepted the risk associated with coming into this country
illegaly. It is not the fault of law enforcement when they enforce the law. It's
time to saddle up the horses and ride.
Your right. We should stop watching the news so we won't know about the crimes
illegals are committing. If we ignore the problem it will go away. Most of the illegals are not poor fathers coming over to work hard to support
their families. Most are criminals and come over hear and milk us poor blind
fools dry and committ violent crimes in the process.
If they want to be here, then they should do it legally if not they have
norights at all then they broke our laws ,. Let them be punished according to
our laws.DO NOT reward them with jobs wefare or any other benefis, when you do
they laugh at us .and call us stupid AMERICANS. I have heard this first hand.
One is not a person of good will if they break our laws to be able to live here.
They do not contribute to society when they are enjoying health care and
schooling that we pay for.
That was before it was a FELONY to come to the country illegally. That's the
crazy thing about this country; we establish laws to help curb inappropriate
behavior. Don't apply that time and situation to the current time -- Apples to
Let's think why illegal immigrants come here, because people keep hiring them to
work. I'm Latino, I talk to people all the time about this. Social
Security doesn't work anymore, it is so easy to get fake SS cards, that have
real SS numbers on them. SS is how everything is tracked in this country, it has
been so abused that it is an inaccurate way to track anything (the number of
illegal immigrants in this country is proof of that). I don't like
being discriminated against because I speak Spanish, but with all the problems
immigration has caused, I understand where people are coming from. I'm all about
people bettering their lives, but there are laws that need to be followed.
Hopefully this great country takes huge steps to solve these problems before its
USA cannot afford Illegals. They need to pack their bags and go home! We also
cannot afford the crime they bring here. So nice little law breakers and leave
before you are forced.
We were born in this country and when we first moved to Utah we applied for
Housing(Subsidized and Sec. 8) We were told that there would be a year to 18
month waiting list. Good hopefully we will not end up needing it. We called
after the first year of waiting, it would be about 6 months. More than 6 months
past called again to see how much longer we had to wait. Another year at least.
They ran out of funds. Okay then why is it that the interperter for our military
from Iran was immediately given(he was invited) housing - no wait at all. Seems
this happens to a lot of those who come to this country especially when they are
here uninvited but yet those who are born here and white are treated more like
second class citizens and as though they are the illegals. Also why
is it that those of us who only speak english can't get a job but those who only
speak spanish can? I have several neighbors who have homemakers and they speak
little to no english. I would demand someone who only spoke English.
Latinos add much value to Utah. The economy in Utah thrives on their work.
Many have started small enterprises that make marginal profits. While
not all of these are undocumented immigrants, some of you seem to think they
are. We should be friendly to new immigrants and stop letting the
federal government dictate who is here based on narrow minded decisions. The
system is broken. They are willing to let in educated people, especially if
they have non-religious backgrounds, but hard working Christians who will do
jobs that are in demand are not allowed in because of specific nation quotas and
preferences for educated people. Beyond this, while people from
represive foriegn countries whose nationals have track records of avoiding
leaving are alowed to come here as students, student visas for people from Latin
America are routinely denied on the argument that they are "too poor to ever be
expected to leave". The fact of the matter is that there are thousands
of citizens in Utah and probably millions in the United States whose current
livelihood is conditioned on the continued employment of their parents. We
should at least consider these citizens in our deliberations.
Americans look back on their treatment of the American Indians and Native
Africans and hang their heads in shame. Can't we learn from history or does
history have to repeat itself with the Latin Americans? They are human beings
with families and feelings just like all of us. Come across legally? There is no
such thing. Many of you sound like you are looking for a legal way to an
old-fashioned lynching. The problem needs to be solved, but you don't round 'em
up, throw 'em in jail or toss them back across the border. We are going to pay
for our actions someday and I want no part of the inhumane treatment of my
Anybody ever heard of malum in se and malum prohibitum? Malum in se means that
something is morally wrong in and of itself. Malum in prohibitum means that
something is wrong just because it's prohibited, not because it's morally wrong.
Immigration laws are mostly malum prohibitum. There's nothing morally wrong
with crossing an imaginary border; it's only wrong because it's forbidden by
law. "Illegal" immigrants have broken a law yes, but that is much
less serious than breaking a law that prohibits immoral acts like stealing
property or harming a person. If immigrants, or anybody for that matter, breaks
a law that is malum in se, then they should be prosecuted to the full extent of
the law. People who break laws that are malum prohibitum should be prosecuted,
but the severity of the infraction is such that there should be flexibility
there.The reality is that there are 12 million "illegal" immigrants
in the United States. We can't deport them all. As long as they are otherwise
law abiding citizens we should help them assimilate. Make them pay some fine?
Sure, but help them assimilate just like you would a new guy moving here from
p.s. Im definitely getting an idea of all you peoples IQ level who write in all
Seriously, people. Are these illegals, as youve been calling them (you know,
theyre human beings too), really hurting you by working jobs like construction
and landscape? I hope you all realize just because someone is of
Mexican descent DOES NOT make them a gang member or illegal (youve all been
watching the news too much). There are many Mexicans who are here legally. God
bless you, Jo Jo, I think youve hit this one on the nose. I also am reading
racism very rampant in these comments. Please, stop feeding me this bull about
breaking laws when racism is the issue here.Anyway, Mexicans were
here in Utah long before we whities were. When the first Utah settlers came
here, it was Mexican territory, remember? Maybe we should learn their language?
(You know, most of the world speaks more than one language. But I guess "English
is what makes America so great" right "concerned"?)
All of you should know that 80 to 85% of crime in US have been commited by a
white or black guy. less than 2% for foreign people, this was an study made by
the goverment from the 90's til 2004.Ignorants!!!
The reason this is still a problem is because we don't have any elected
officials with b@lls enough to stand up to the problem because they don't want
to appear racist. Which makes no sense since teh people of Utah keep voting for
Chris Buttars and he's been called a racist over and over again. Show me a
politician who cares about this country and/or this state more than their
political image, and I'll vote for them every time no matter what party they
When will people STOP confusing the "Immigrant" statement with ILLEGAL. They
are two different things.
To Joe:Not knowing some English may be a good indicator.
This is what we are going to hear over and over again at the GOP convention:
Democrats are soft on terrorism and illegal immigration.
Listed below are the steps we need to take to stop illegal immigration:1. Make entering the country legally easier than entering illegally. Give the
visitor a picture id card after their identity is verified by their home
country's government. On that card will be visa information and permissions of
what that person may do in this country and the dates of their stay.2.
Make a national I.D. card which is required to obtain employment, open bank
accounts, apply for credit, buy a bus pass, purchase a vehicle, etc. (we already
have a social security #. Employers and businesses just check the I.D. card
against a national database)3. Require visitors to this country to check
in to the INS every month or so by going online to verify their location and
Most of the illegal immigrants I know tried to come here legally. They were
denied a visa, some of them multiple times. Often it's about who you know if you
are able to get a visa to come to the US. So when a poor father looks at his
starving family, tries to get a visa because he can't find a job in his own
country, and is denied, he makes the decision to come here anyway. I am not in
favor of illegal immigration because it causes way too many problems. If we're
so afraid of undocumented workers, why don't we make it easier for them to be
documente? After all, they just want a job, right? So start a guest worker
program, give them a card that allows them to work with their own identity, and
make them pay taxes.
If our hollow brained law makers can't come up with a solution to the
immigration problem, throwing the enforcement back onto employers does not make
any sense at all. Has anyone ever considered what would happen to Utah's
economy if we didn't have these people here? Yes, there are a few who ruin it
for the rest, but in general we have some very good people here.
I live in Southern California, and I can tell you that the illegal people here
have more rights than the citizens of the U.S.! We can't do a thing about it.
Something is wrong.
Utah needs to take action that our federal government has failed to do. All
Illegals should be rounded up and sent back to where they came from. Only
full-time enrolled students and "short term (less than 6 months at a time)"
workers should be allowed in the US without becoming citizens. Anyone who
legally comes here to "stay" must become tax-paying, law abiding citizens.All public services should be offered in English only. We could learn a
lot from India on this matter. A country with over 400 languages and dialects,
but all state business is in English only. No services other than life saving
medical care should be given to anyone who is not a citizen. Get rid of the
free welfare, schooling, health care, subsidized breakfast/lunch programs,
etc.If anyone expects to stay in the USA, become a citizen and set
your heart and dedication to the United States. Immigrants who established this
country did just that. Many immigrants today, do not. and they should be sent
back!Unless we make these changes, the US will destroy itself from
within and we'll all stand here crying wondering how we lost our country.
Speak the language, stop stealing our identities, stop the crime, play by our
rules, get inline to enter the country.Welcome!
When my ancestors [pioneers] came to "Utah" it was still Mexico
territory. They did not come in legally nor did they learn Spanish. But future
settlers did eventually kick out all others who were here first
(Indians/Mexicans). Take a history lesson people--we're doing it all over
again. How dare other immigrants do what we have historically done time and
I think your own country is selling your own people sending all jobs overseas
for less money!!!These illegal peoples are more than 30 MILLIONS!!!
this problem have more than 10 or 15 years!!! they are a country inside US, we
need to take the good ones and help them to get all papers in order, and bad
ones to go back!!!
Although I consider myself "conservative," I think the Sutherland Institute is
dead wrong on this issue. They appear to believe "the market" is some sort of
god that will solve all our problems. I generally believe in free markets.
However, markets and money are not the only things that make a good society. The
rule of law, social cohesion, honesty, and morality also are important. There is
more to life than "the bottom line"!
To 7:40Now, that was quite ignorant. We also have laws nowadays, and
this is not 200 years ago. Stop fighting with laws, and pack your bags and
leave. Thank you.
USA, my ancestors came to the US and entered this country legally to improve
their lives at their own expense. They suffered and sacrificed while crossing
the plains to come to Utah.Illegal aliens enter this country to
improve their lives at the expense of others - school costs, unemployment
benefits, health costs, etc. The criminal element is also strong with them; go
figure since they entered the country illegally to begin with.Sanctuary cities and states should be ashamed of their supposed charity and
kind heartedness. It is those polices that place an enormous burden upon the
legal citizens of this country and bankrupting those same governments.
Last week we had one of those "honest hard workng people here seeking a better
life" slam into the back of our truck and then take off. The police say it is a
regular occurence and that it happens all over the valley on almost a nightly
basis. Illegals without insurance, a drivers license, or any experience
behind the wheel are out there turning our roads into a jungle where all of our
lives are at stake. We all need to wake up and demand that our immigration laws
be enforced and that doesn't mean amnesty in any form. Call, write,
and do whatever you must to demand that elected officials at all levels start
sending law breakers home.
I don't hear any complaints from Native Americans, and WE basically made them
I wish Hickman would run for govenor. We would finally have a person of
substance rather than just benefactors of the family fortune. He was a terrific
If our teenagers where not so busy with their text messages and hanging out at
the mall our illegal alien problem would be solved. We don't need illegal labor
we have plenty of teens sitting around with nothing to do.
This country has been made for LEGAL immigrants and by LEGAL immigrants. My
family came here in the 1600's LEGALLY. The key word is LEGAL.
to USA:My grand grand grandfather NEVER started a gang and starting
killing people, nor did he live off the state. He worked his butt of providing
for his family and making this a better place. He didn't just live off the other
people doing so.
WE DO NOT WANT ILLEGALS HERE--GO HOME!!!STAND IN LINE AND TAKE YOUR TURN
LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!!!! QUIT JUMPING FENCES! THERE ARE NO MORE JOBS FOR YOU!
We have let illegal immigration get too far out of hand. There is not way we
should grant amnesty to 20 to 30 million people (15% of Mexico's citizens).
They will then "reunite" their families and within 10-20 years we will have an
additional 100 to 150 million people in the USA. Where will the water and
energy come from to sustain that population group? The American Dream will die
and America will join the rest of Central and South America as a third world
These comments just show that racism is doing very well here in Utah. "All
immigrants should learn english", and "every immigrant is illegal and a child
molester." Isn't it true that the only LEGAL Utahns have been treated the worst
of all? Shouldn't we instead all learn Navajo or fly the Ute flag? How dare we
say who can or can't be on "our" land that was taken illegally by our ancestors
from those who claimed it before us. But I guess it's their fault--for being on
our land before we got here right? Those who champion this way of thought used
to go by names like the Klan, now they are called the "Minutemen." 60 years ago
we sent all the Japanese to Topaz. Now we want to kill our economy by sending
all immigrants back to their lands. 60 years ago Berlin built a wall to keep
out free thought. Now our country builds a wall to keep out those who want to
build a better life. It's the same racism; just now we say that we're doing it
to abide by the law.
my forefathers came into this country by way of ellis island. They did not
sneak in, nor did they use all the social programs or welfare available to them.
there wasnt any. they came here legally. they worked hard and help build this
country. They did not send money back to Denmark. They were americans.Those that hire illegals are selling this country out. All they care about is
thier bottom line.
USA - When my fathers came to this country they signed in and signed paperwork
that allowed them to legally enter the country. What we are talking about is
illegal entry into the country.No one that is against illegal
immigration is against legal immigration. It is not a racist stance but a
viewpoint that if we have laws then they should be obeyed. If you allow
disobedience to one law then you have no moral ground to command obedience to
other laws.If you don't understand this then I guess you should
allow people to walk into your house and take what you have without calling the
police.We desire that laws be enforced. It doesn't mean we don't
treat people with respect, but it does mean that we treat people equally under
THIS COUNTRY HAS BEEN MADE FOR INMIGRANTS AND BY INMIGRANTS...DONT YOU
REMEMBER...OR YOUR GRAND GRAND GRAND FATHER CAME WITH VISA????NOPE
If "that" people have come to work hard, speak the language, pay taxes (they do,
we take it from their paycheck)no criminal records, I dont see any problem after
paying a good fee and making sure is ggod for our economy, but for "those" that
have criminal record, dont speak english and dont want to be part of this
country...go home!!!Whos going to judge BUSH for entering or invading a
country without authorization to make war?????? illegal war??? YEP
If employers currently have no method, one should be developed quickly. This
problem needs to be addressed now and it needs to be addressed in a way that
makes it easier to come in legally than illegally.
Many Americans go to work in other countries where English isn't spoken. They
make no effort to learn the language and live a pretty insular life. They find
American communities there and don't send their kids to foreign schools.Believe it or not undocumented workers often do the same here and we're
enraged! Many want to come here to work and then return to their homelands. In
many, many cases they stay here because getting home and back is incredibly
expensive and dangerous. WE NEED A GUEST WORKER PROGRAM!!!!!
question: Does ILLEGAL really mean ILLEGAL?!?!?If ILLEGAL Aliens
are given amnesty, when is my turn?I'd like a "freebie" too!
Joe, how right you are.The Swift raid of a year ago was EXACTLY this
problem!Early on Swift went the extra mile and verifying everyone's
documentation. They ended up being both civily sued by some people they refused
to hire and the US Dept of Justice fined them for discrimination. The fine was
$250,000!So Swift then stops going the extra mile trying to vefify
that people are here legally, and simply do the E-verify program. Obviously that
program doesn't work well because we see what happened next. The Feds do a raid
and pick up over 1,000 people working illegally.Danged if they do
and danged if they don't.The system is full blown brocken and
thinking that we are going to solve it by having all employers double check ID
is risky. Just ask Swift.I am beginning to think that Utah needs to
create its own Migrant Work card. We could control how many come into Utah with
this card and if we didn't give them a card we deport'em. We do the job the Feds
aren't able to, or won't consistently do.It could be done. I'm
calling my legislator about it.
Real justice and fairness equals following the rules. Those who
aren't willing to apply to come here and wait their turn, should not be welcomed
simply because they broke the law and entered illegally. Simply
being here doesn't give them special privileges, no more than a thief has a
right to money in a bank only because he sneaks in when no one sees him and just
happens to "be there". It just isn't the thief's money; nor is it the illegal's
country or right to be here.
While you are beating up on the employers, maybe you should consider their
problem. If a worker shows up with documentation, is he actually
able to verify that the documentation is valid? If he says "this looks like it
might be counterfeit" then he may well be accused of discrimination, and be
subject to a suit.No employer can legally employ a person without
documentation; the problem is that documents are relatively easy to obtain.If a worker shows up with documentation, does the employer actually have
an easy method to determine its validity?
Ask Arizona how wonderful it is with their illegal immigrants. It appears that
many are not so nice. They have broken laws, taken easy money from the
government, and left some of our own in harms way. I am not opposed to people
coming here-but do it legally. When we turn our heads and say the law does not
matter, what other laws get ignored. And then what constitutional rights slowly
are being taken away because we have been complacent and do not want to stand up
for what is right. It is when we say it is no big deal that the freedoms we
enjoy slowly are taken away-and we do not see it till it is too late. So what I
am trying to express, if we say illegal immigrants are no big deal, they do not
have to follow our law and rules, then what happens next? What happens to our
constitution? What happens to the USA and what is stands for? WAKE UP!!! Come
live here, but do it legally. I have to follow the laws of your land follow the
laws of mine.
Our immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed. That is one thing Bush
and McCain are right about. If all illegals were deported, our economy would
collapse. Most illegals have legal family members, wives, husbands or children.
Deportation would break-up countless families. Sending hard working people
back to starve where there is no work will be hard to explain to St. Peter at
the Gates of Heaven.
If people come here legally, learn English and respect our customs and rule of
law - we welcome them with open arms. If they come here illegally, want us to
learn their language, fly their countries flag and expect free services - they
are NOT welcome here! Send them home to their own country. Rule of law and
English is what made America great!
They are taking all the lower grungy jobs, allowing us good upstanding citizens
to go into the chushy jobs.This is intollarable I hate it, or so it
would seem given the response of many Utah's.
"If a person of good will comes to our state looking to make Utah a better place
to live, work and raise a family, then we should welcome that person from
wherever and however they come to us," I agree with this statement, but
illegals don't fit the definition. They all need someone else's identity to
work.I'm not willing to let them use mine of my families, are you ?
Will someone please come check my neighborhood?? I am surrounded by illegals on
all sides. As mentioned, the people can be loved, but I do not love those who
commit felonies to be here.. I don't love what the child molester does, why
should I love what illegal aliens are doing?
HOW CAN ANYONE PUT BREAKING THE LAW, BEFORE GIVING ILLEGAL'S SO MANY RIGHTS, LET
THEM START BY COMING IN THE FRONT DOOR WITH LEGAL PAPERS!!!
The state should hold employers accountable to curb illegal immigration. They
should be fined greatly each instance they hire an undocumented worker.
These illegal foreign nationals are not adding any value to Utah. They expect
and believe that america is a socialist economy and spunging off our social
services and welfare programs. Their tax burden exceeds any gain and they are
doing this with lies, deceit, and falsification of information that cannot be
verified or proven. And they and their employers know this. These illegals and
their employers are not paying any income taxes and they have no identity. They
can commit crimes and fraud rampantly and openly without any consequences from
the law. If caught they are released and relocate at will with no means to be
traced. They have also put excessive burdens on our education systems that
illegals are using as daycare centers while the illegal parents defraud the
american people. They have and are multipling like rabbits to establish anchor
babies and increase welfare benefits. Thier idea of assimilation is americans
assimilate the illegal criminal lives without regard to violation of any laws.
There is no such thing as a nice and friendly illegal, they are stabbing america
in the back with thier hands out. Laws must address the business community and
their lucrative tax evasion profiting.
Hickman is a blowhard. And now I hear the right wing is floating him to run
against Bob Bennett for US Senate. Oh boy!This issue is pretty
complicated as evidenced by the fact that no one has solved it yet. Deportations
having been setting new records each year for the past 4 or 5 years. The border
fence hsa reduced illegal border crossings by hundreds of thousands a year. Yet
illegal immigration persists.Enforcement alone will not stop the
masses from doing what they want. Enforcement must continue but other methods
need to be considered, such as a workable migrant visa.SB 81, as I
understand it, has good provisions. It concepts to cut off the benefits of US
Citizenship to those who are not US Citizens. It will have a strong impact on
the presence of those in Utah illegally. It alone will not settle the issue. The
Sutherland is right to look at or consider other ways of addressing the
issue.Bill Hickman worries me. He has been a blah, blah, yada, yada
Representative and Senator for 16 years now. Even on this issue he helped kill
thoughtful immigration bills two years ago. Now he'll save us?
We ofter talk about the problem of illegal immigration, but we actually have a
problem of illegal employment. I don't see anyone complaining about the
employers who are "breaking federal law"
Well said arc. You were succinct and on point especially with the "I might love
them as people, but I don't love what they're doing".
Who are these Sutherland people? I picked up a copy of their report and found
it to be very out of touch and dangerous if anyone follows their suggestions.
Obviously these guys need to get out into the real world and see that there is a
criminal element involved with illegal aliens. I'm glad to see at least some
legislators calling them onto the carpet.
I'm a native Utahan descended from the original Mormon settlers and I don't feel
welcome in Utah with my California plates. What's the big deal?
arc - That might be the nicest comment I have ever seen you post. I agree with
you. Now it's about the details. This is a tough issue whether people want to
admit it or not. People win elections by using bumper sticker slogans like "we
need to fix legal immigration." The problems come in trying to sort those items
out that start dealing with details.My guess is that anything that
would allow someone to stay here that came to the US illegally is amnesty in
your eyes. You may say that but if we started talking about the details on how
to do that or who it might affect - my other guess is that you'd think twice
about it. Chaffetz won an election using this tactic of not talking
details b/c it gets too muddied. I applaud his tactic but it leaves much to work
out at the end.
This really is a problem. It has destroyed the schools and healthcare here and
I'm predicting Utah (where I was born) is on a delayed course. Sure, we need to
treat people nice, but if they shouldn't be in the United States then send them
politely on their way. Don't give in. The real solution is to encourage other
countries to improve themselves first and our country can let those who want do
it the right way immigrate.
I refuse to welcome those who have come here illegally just like I would refuse
to welcome home invasion robbers into my home. There is something fundamentally
wrong with a government that is still trying to find a way to grant amnesty to
illegal aliens who have thumbed their noses at us and have absolutely no respect
for us, our laws, or the sovereignty of our country. Why doesn't this matter to
them? I seem to remember (perhaps I am wrong) reading recently that
the SLC Chamber of Commerce is working on a plan to deal with illegal
immigration. Why? We already have a plan. It's called SB81! Legislators
should have voted to make it effective this past July rather than waiting until
next year. Extreme vigilance is required now because many will
attempt to gut the bill or eliminate it entirely. That would be a mockery of
the rule of law.
I agree with arc. I have many good friends who were born in other countries but
who now live here. Some are here legally, some are not. I love them all. But I
don't condone being here illegally.I don't support a heavy-handed
approach of rounding up people and sending them back. I DO support holding
employers' feet to the fire and requiring them to use the existing federal
verification system to ensure that new and existing employees a) are here
legally, b) are eligible to work, and c) are not using someone else's stolen
social security number. If all hiring entities, private, non-profit and public
sector followed this procedure and required it of their contractors, then
illegals would leave of their own accord (and would also communicate to the
folks back home to not come because there is no work!). Simple solution.I'd personally like to see the businesses who were lax in allowing
illegals to work foot the bill for any assistance needed to help people return
home.BTW--I think we'll find that supply and demand will eventually
sort out the jobs left behind--they won't go unfilled for long. As the cheap
labor supply shrinks wages will increase.
we don't want people that are trying to follow the rules to wait longer to come
to the US and have a shot at being a citizen than someone coming without
permission. That isn't fair. It sets a bad precedent.We need to fix
legal immigration. I don't want a welcome mat for those not willing to follow
the rules and are stealing are ID's.I might love them as people, but
I don't love what they are doing.