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Foes of same-sex marriage mobilize
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Hmm... | 5:39 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
I think this whole thing is gay...
re: stupidity of thought | 8:04 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
That is a really good title for post.
re: unafraid | 8:11 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
It really shouldn't be much of a surprise that the gay issue has prompted
many to state they are leaving the church. Counting international membership,
while the church is proud of its 13 million in membership, only 1/3 are still
active. Millions don't count themselves members even though they are still
on the rolls.
Members look at this as a sifting, others look at it as people coming to their senses.
Members look at this as a sifting, others look at it as people coming to their senses.
Comments continue below
Ridiculous | 8:28 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
There are some ridiculous arguments about the whole gay marriage agenda.
1. Rights. You have the right to remain silent, do you exercise that right? We have a right to bear arms, but there are those trying to eliminate guns.
2. Comparisons. Equal rights is gender equality. Black vs. whites is racial equality. Gay marriage=sexual orientation equality? The first 2 were about race and gender. Gay agenda is about sex, perverted at that. Men, that is a natural exit. Women, never mind.
3. Comparing to plural marriage. Plural marriage was outlawed and is illegal. Those practicing still live in their own little community and do their own thing. Perhaps gays could do the same thing and just stay quiet about it.
4. Hypocrits. Why is everyone opposed to the gay agenda a hypocrit?
5. Where does it end? Marriage to children, dogs, cats, horses, sister, brother, own child? Jerry Springer, look at what you started.
6. Freedom. Laws are made to protect freedom. Anything else is anarchy.
7. Gay? Go thy way and sin no more...
8. Acceptance. Why accept something morally wrong? Next is accepting stealing, murder, cheating?
Make it stop.
1. Rights. You have the right to remain silent, do you exercise that right? We have a right to bear arms, but there are those trying to eliminate guns.
2. Comparisons. Equal rights is gender equality. Black vs. whites is racial equality. Gay marriage=sexual orientation equality? The first 2 were about race and gender. Gay agenda is about sex, perverted at that. Men, that is a natural exit. Women, never mind.
3. Comparing to plural marriage. Plural marriage was outlawed and is illegal. Those practicing still live in their own little community and do their own thing. Perhaps gays could do the same thing and just stay quiet about it.
4. Hypocrits. Why is everyone opposed to the gay agenda a hypocrit?
5. Where does it end? Marriage to children, dogs, cats, horses, sister, brother, own child? Jerry Springer, look at what you started.
6. Freedom. Laws are made to protect freedom. Anything else is anarchy.
7. Gay? Go thy way and sin no more...
8. Acceptance. Why accept something morally wrong? Next is accepting stealing, murder, cheating?
Make it stop.
Joe | 8:48 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
To those bitter over the position of the LDS Church leaders and the stand they
have taken on this gay marriage issue:
I am sorry you don't agree with the church leaders position, and I am sorry you are hurt because it is contrary to your position.
Despite what you feel, their stand is not based upon not loving you. It is simply a fact that if marriage between gays is legally adopted, the negative consequences far outweigh the positive consequences (it their opinions).
You need to seriously ask yourself when was the last time you had a good conversation with your Heavenly Father? We all have our feelings hurt from time to time, often by idiotic members who don't really understand how their statements might be considered offensive by you.
The simple facts of the matter are that the Lord loves you. He places trials in the lives of all of us, and asks us to do the best we can in overcoming those trials. We can take to him our broken heart and ask for consolation and comfort, or we can harden our hearts and fail to learn what he would have us learn. You're not alone.
I am sorry you don't agree with the church leaders position, and I am sorry you are hurt because it is contrary to your position.
Despite what you feel, their stand is not based upon not loving you. It is simply a fact that if marriage between gays is legally adopted, the negative consequences far outweigh the positive consequences (it their opinions).
You need to seriously ask yourself when was the last time you had a good conversation with your Heavenly Father? We all have our feelings hurt from time to time, often by idiotic members who don't really understand how their statements might be considered offensive by you.
The simple facts of the matter are that the Lord loves you. He places trials in the lives of all of us, and asks us to do the best we can in overcoming those trials. We can take to him our broken heart and ask for consolation and comfort, or we can harden our hearts and fail to learn what he would have us learn. You're not alone.
To Ridiculous | 9:47 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Your name says it all.... Have you considered therapy? Do you hear voices when
you pray?
Repent | 10:02 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
When I was younger I used to fear the word "repent". It seemed so
ominous and filled with nothing but pain and sorrow.
But as the years have gone by I've come to see that the word "repent" is more akin to the word "change", since when one repents, they do in fact change.
They might change their friends, their line of work, how they spend their free time, their language, but always they change their ATTITUDE which naturally leads to a change of actions.
I have a very good friend who, when he was an LDS bishop, told me that when one of the members of his ward would visit with him in private to confess a sin and begin the process of repenting, he could hardly stop from grinning from ear to ear. Why?
Because he could see that the person was taking that first step to making a POSITIVE change in their life. What's "bad" about that?
If you've acted, or are acting, in homosexual manners, ask the Lord for a spiritual witness that what you've done is wrong. Let HIM teach you. Then "change", with His help, for the better.
It CAN be done.
Good luck.
But as the years have gone by I've come to see that the word "repent" is more akin to the word "change", since when one repents, they do in fact change.
They might change their friends, their line of work, how they spend their free time, their language, but always they change their ATTITUDE which naturally leads to a change of actions.
I have a very good friend who, when he was an LDS bishop, told me that when one of the members of his ward would visit with him in private to confess a sin and begin the process of repenting, he could hardly stop from grinning from ear to ear. Why?
Because he could see that the person was taking that first step to making a POSITIVE change in their life. What's "bad" about that?
If you've acted, or are acting, in homosexual manners, ask the Lord for a spiritual witness that what you've done is wrong. Let HIM teach you. Then "change", with His help, for the better.
It CAN be done.
Good luck.
Re: Repent | 10:03 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Repenting from homosexual actions may or may not lead to a complete desire to
never perform homosexual actions again.
But it will certainly lead to enough of a change in heart, where through God's help, the person will have the strength to not act on them.
Difficult? Maybe so. Painful at times? Perhaps.
But who ever said that life would be easy?
EVERYONE, homosexual or not, has problems.
But it will certainly lead to enough of a change in heart, where through God's help, the person will have the strength to not act on them.
Difficult? Maybe so. Painful at times? Perhaps.
But who ever said that life would be easy?
EVERYONE, homosexual or not, has problems.
Re: Sifting | 10:07 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Was it sifting or coming to his senses when Judas betrayed Christ?
Get real. Anything that leads one away from God is not just "getting smarter".
The older I get the more I respect Satan's intelligence and cunning.
Get real. Anything that leads one away from God is not just "getting smarter".
The older I get the more I respect Satan's intelligence and cunning.
Many Will Leave | 10:21 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Many members will leave the LDS church over the issue of homosexuality.
In their attempt to placate their guilt they will start a church that will teach almost all of the same things that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches now. There will be contention over whether they should revere Joseph Smith as a prophet or not. Eventually the consesus will be to not do so. They may choose a "prophet" and Apostles. They will teach from the Book of Mormon. For a while. It will eventually have church buildings in SLC. Many of their members will be financially well off.
Their Priesthood will be null and void, or as the Lord told Joseph, "Amen to the priesthood of that man".
If the members don't follow the Lord more willingly in ALL things, you can count on it.
To those who are homosexual, I love you but I will not love your homosexual actions.
In their attempt to placate their guilt they will start a church that will teach almost all of the same things that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches now. There will be contention over whether they should revere Joseph Smith as a prophet or not. Eventually the consesus will be to not do so. They may choose a "prophet" and Apostles. They will teach from the Book of Mormon. For a while. It will eventually have church buildings in SLC. Many of their members will be financially well off.
Their Priesthood will be null and void, or as the Lord told Joseph, "Amen to the priesthood of that man".
If the members don't follow the Lord more willingly in ALL things, you can count on it.
To those who are homosexual, I love you but I will not love your homosexual actions.
For "Love" at 3:47, Aug 25 | 10:42 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
"Love | 3:47 p.m. Aug. 25, 2008
I would love to see what would happen if the whole country voted on Temple marriage being legal or not!!! America would overthrow your silly little ritual in a heart beat!!!"
And the argument that a marriage in an LDS Temple is illegal would be?.....
"Holy temples on Mount Zion,
In a lofty splendor shine,
Avenues to exaltation,
Symbols of a love divine...
Till at length our faithful kindred
Sealed with us eternally
In celestial bonds of union
Sing hosannas unto Thee."
"Holy Temples On Mount Zion"
LDS Hymnal, Hymn #289
Why do you have such hatred in your heart for things that you don't understand?
I would love to see what would happen if the whole country voted on Temple marriage being legal or not!!! America would overthrow your silly little ritual in a heart beat!!!"
And the argument that a marriage in an LDS Temple is illegal would be?.....
"Holy temples on Mount Zion,
In a lofty splendor shine,
Avenues to exaltation,
Symbols of a love divine...
Till at length our faithful kindred
Sealed with us eternally
In celestial bonds of union
Sing hosannas unto Thee."
"Holy Temples On Mount Zion"
LDS Hymnal, Hymn #289
Why do you have such hatred in your heart for things that you don't understand?
FLDS same-sex | 11:42 a.m. Aug. 27, 2008
I can't believe this story received more posts than the FLDS story.
To FLDS same-sex | 1:16 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Of course it received more posts. This is an election issue this year, polygamy
isn't yet.
John Pack Lambert | 1:31 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
People are now discriminated against for expressing views against same-gender
marriage.
Allstate fired someone for having written an article opposed to same-gender marriage. His name is Matt Barber.
They fired him for writting a piece on his own time, at his homoe on his own computer. This was not a case of bringing politics into the workplace, but of the employer trying to restrict allowed political activities by its employees.
True, this is an incident that goes back to late 2004, but it will become more common if we legalize same gender marriage.
Allstate fired someone for having written an article opposed to same-gender marriage. His name is Matt Barber.
They fired him for writting a piece on his own time, at his homoe on his own computer. This was not a case of bringing politics into the workplace, but of the employer trying to restrict allowed political activities by its employees.
True, this is an incident that goes back to late 2004, but it will become more common if we legalize same gender marriage.
John Pack Lambert | 1:34 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
To 5:03,
To attack religion as a unified whole is disceptive. Members of the LDS Church have never burned someone at the stake.
Electro-shock therapy is another thing you bring up that is misleading. Before I go on I have to say I am not convinced electro-shock therapy is very useful. It may work in some cases, but it at times has been overused.
Electro-shock therapy is not a method of punishment, but a method of treatment. Part of the confusion comes from the totally incorrect dipiction of it in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" which has many other issues as well.
Electro-sock therapy may currently be viewed as being as antiquated as leach treatments, I am not sure, but you have to deal with the fact that the people who have used electro-shock therapy did so as a treatment and believed it was helping the person. They may have been wrong, but you have to understand their goals and mindset in doing so.
To attack religion as a unified whole is disceptive. Members of the LDS Church have never burned someone at the stake.
Electro-shock therapy is another thing you bring up that is misleading. Before I go on I have to say I am not convinced electro-shock therapy is very useful. It may work in some cases, but it at times has been overused.
Electro-shock therapy is not a method of punishment, but a method of treatment. Part of the confusion comes from the totally incorrect dipiction of it in "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" which has many other issues as well.
Electro-sock therapy may currently be viewed as being as antiquated as leach treatments, I am not sure, but you have to deal with the fact that the people who have used electro-shock therapy did so as a treatment and believed it was helping the person. They may have been wrong, but you have to understand their goals and mindset in doing so.
John Pack Lambert | 1:50 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
I was not implying that there are people who get on here and lie by saying
they are church members.
What I mean is that some of the people who post on here openly say they are not church members. Others who post say things that seem to imply such.
Since at most 70% of Utah's population is LDS this is not to surprising. There is also the factor that many people who post here live outside of Utah.
As an open comment forum, it is possible for anyone to post who gets on the internet and finds this site.
What I mean is that some of the people who post on here openly say they are not church members. Others who post say things that seem to imply such.
Since at most 70% of Utah's population is LDS this is not to surprising. There is also the factor that many people who post here live outside of Utah.
As an open comment forum, it is possible for anyone to post who gets on the internet and finds this site.
To John Pack Lambert | 2:40 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
"People are now discriminated against for expressing views against
same-gender marriage.
Allstate fired someone for having written an article opposed to same-gender marriage. His name is Matt Barber.
They fired him for writting a piece on his own time, at his homoe on his own computer. This was not a case of bringing politics into the workplace, but of the employer trying to restrict allowed political activities by its employees."
WOW!!! Really, you should share this story with former BYU professor, Jeffrey Nielsen.
Allstate fired someone for having written an article opposed to same-gender marriage. His name is Matt Barber.
They fired him for writting a piece on his own time, at his homoe on his own computer. This was not a case of bringing politics into the workplace, but of the employer trying to restrict allowed political activities by its employees."
WOW!!! Really, you should share this story with former BYU professor, Jeffrey Nielsen.
It Won't Stop | 3:00 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Another poster talked about a guy named Matt Barber getting fired by Allstate
Insurance for writing an anti-gay article at home on his own computer on his own
time.
It's true. Google it yourself.
And you can also Google "Rolf Szaba" who was fired by Kodak after working for them for 23 years. That was back in October 2002.
Here's a question to LDS members, or people of other religious faiths, that don't really "like" the homosexual push these days, but think that we ought to just live and let live:
Do you really believe that this kind of discrimination against those that oppose the practive of homosexuality is going to stop?
If so, why?
Why will homosexuals, who have pushed American society as a whole for so long to "accept" them, simply stop pushing once homosexual marriage is allowed?
How can you not see that they will next push for the formal restriction of free speech (i.e., "laws")if it is ANYTHING even remotely related to an anti-homosexual stance?
If you're not nervous about that, you should be.
Any takers on this?
Heck, I'd even love to hear what the rabid pro-homosexual crowd has to say...
It's true. Google it yourself.
And you can also Google "Rolf Szaba" who was fired by Kodak after working for them for 23 years. That was back in October 2002.
Here's a question to LDS members, or people of other religious faiths, that don't really "like" the homosexual push these days, but think that we ought to just live and let live:
Do you really believe that this kind of discrimination against those that oppose the practive of homosexuality is going to stop?
If so, why?
Why will homosexuals, who have pushed American society as a whole for so long to "accept" them, simply stop pushing once homosexual marriage is allowed?
How can you not see that they will next push for the formal restriction of free speech (i.e., "laws")if it is ANYTHING even remotely related to an anti-homosexual stance?
If you're not nervous about that, you should be.
Any takers on this?
Heck, I'd even love to hear what the rabid pro-homosexual crowd has to say...
Donna Summer | 3:10 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Let's all have a show of hands. How many of you would be willing to be
celibate your entire life? You are living in a fairytale world.
Re: To Ridiculous | 3:34 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
To quote you, "Your name says it all.... Have you considered therapy? Do
you hear voices when you pray?"
Don't need therapy. I think that my argument is perfectly sound. Can't figure out your response.
Continually degregating morals will bring the destruction of our great country. Ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? We need to fight off these attacks against normal human nature otherwise it will never stop.
Everyone has their challenges and must choose between right and wrong. Heaven knows I have my share of temptations. We all do. Homosexuality is not natural. Never has been, never will be. It is an abomination and a sin. Doesn't matter what religion you are, it is a sin. If we accept this, what is next? Do we marry our own children just because we can? Do we allow people to marry their animals just because they are "born with" the desire to be with animals? Forwardthinking is not always the best thinking. We need to learn from our past and see in history how this type of behavior has destroyed kingdoms and villages.
Don't need therapy. I think that my argument is perfectly sound. Can't figure out your response.
Continually degregating morals will bring the destruction of our great country. Ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? We need to fight off these attacks against normal human nature otherwise it will never stop.
Everyone has their challenges and must choose between right and wrong. Heaven knows I have my share of temptations. We all do. Homosexuality is not natural. Never has been, never will be. It is an abomination and a sin. Doesn't matter what religion you are, it is a sin. If we accept this, what is next? Do we marry our own children just because we can? Do we allow people to marry their animals just because they are "born with" the desire to be with animals? Forwardthinking is not always the best thinking. We need to learn from our past and see in history how this type of behavior has destroyed kingdoms and villages.
to JPL | 3:51 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
It's tough being an apologist. You somehow have to paint yourself as right
in all situations even when you're wrong in some.
i.e. Jeffrey Nielsen
i.e. Jeffrey Nielsen
RE: Donna Summer | 4:00 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
That is the question that the LDS folks have to answer. It is a very easy
question to answer for someone else, when it's you that's another
question.
Of course to the anti-gays (sorry, pro-marriage people), sexuality is just a "tendency", kind of like do I want to scratch my nose now or not.
Of course to the anti-gays (sorry, pro-marriage people), sexuality is just a "tendency", kind of like do I want to scratch my nose now or not.
STEVE-O | 4:34 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
I have never heard ONE legitimate reason for Gays wanting to be
"married." Not ONE! You can be together, love each other, live
together, and YES.. even have children together. Why do you have the desire to
be "married." The only reason is for the perks of being married, tax
and health benefits.
If you want to be married fine, but DON'T try to pretend it's because you love each other so much. You can love each other just as much without a peice of paper and a ceremony.
If you want to be married fine, but DON'T try to pretend it's because you love each other so much. You can love each other just as much without a peice of paper and a ceremony.
To STEVE-O | 4:56 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
You say gay people" can love each other just as much without a piece of
paper and a ceremony." Isn't that true for straight people as well.
Why even bother with a ceremony?
Personally I think it's great that MORE people are willing to make loving long-term committements, whether they happen to be gay or not. I think more honor and stability in all our relationships is certainly the best way to go. And I'm sure it must be very reassuring and helpful for the children who's current parents just happen to be gay.
Personally I think it's great that MORE people are willing to make loving long-term committements, whether they happen to be gay or not. I think more honor and stability in all our relationships is certainly the best way to go. And I'm sure it must be very reassuring and helpful for the children who's current parents just happen to be gay.
RE: STEVE-O | 5:25 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Fine. Get rid of all the perks for being married then only people will get
married for love.
The "conservatives" are always spouting off about unfair taxes. A taxed gay couple is completely unfair. We pay a higher tax rate and most often use less public resources. People having kids should be taxed higher as they use more resources then. Instead, we give them deductions. Doesn't make any sense does it?
The "conservatives" are always spouting off about unfair taxes. A taxed gay couple is completely unfair. We pay a higher tax rate and most often use less public resources. People having kids should be taxed higher as they use more resources then. Instead, we give them deductions. Doesn't make any sense does it?
re: steve-o | 5:45 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Why is marriage important to heteros?
Worldwide Church? | 5:56 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
I am puzzled by something. Isn't the Church a worldwide organization?
Aren't there more members of the Church outside of the U.S. than there are
inside?
For such a worldwide Church, why isn't the Church fightine same-sex marriage in all the other countries and principalities where it is already legal or is being considered?
Why does the Church seem so concerned with the U.S. and California in particular? Is it because after all the talk about how much of a "worldwide" church it is, the truth is it is still a UTAH Church with a smattering in California and a few other Western States?
But I will bet a disproportionate amount of Church tithing money is being spent by the Church legal department to fight this American/Californian issue!
Note to Church Leaders: There are far better ways to spend that sacred money than on a bunch of lawyers to fight a silly little semantic battle over "marriage" versus "civil unions"!
I think tithe-paying members worldwide should call for some accountability for how those sacred funds are being spent! (They should have called for some accountability from Joseph Smith when he started a Bank, too!)
For such a worldwide Church, why isn't the Church fightine same-sex marriage in all the other countries and principalities where it is already legal or is being considered?
Why does the Church seem so concerned with the U.S. and California in particular? Is it because after all the talk about how much of a "worldwide" church it is, the truth is it is still a UTAH Church with a smattering in California and a few other Western States?
But I will bet a disproportionate amount of Church tithing money is being spent by the Church legal department to fight this American/Californian issue!
Note to Church Leaders: There are far better ways to spend that sacred money than on a bunch of lawyers to fight a silly little semantic battle over "marriage" versus "civil unions"!
I think tithe-paying members worldwide should call for some accountability for how those sacred funds are being spent! (They should have called for some accountability from Joseph Smith when he started a Bank, too!)
Paper Moon | 5:59 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
STEVE-O,
Your argument works the other way as well. Why get married in the LDS Temple? You don't need some piece of paper, let alone some old man muttering nonsense over an altar, to prove your love. You can love each other just as much without a piece of paper and a ceremony!
Is THAT how you people are protecting the "sacred institution of marriage" from the damage that it will suffer if same-sex couples get the right to enter into it?!
Wow! I always thought Mormons might be Morons, but not downright idiots!
Your argument works the other way as well. Why get married in the LDS Temple? You don't need some piece of paper, let alone some old man muttering nonsense over an altar, to prove your love. You can love each other just as much without a piece of paper and a ceremony!
Is THAT how you people are protecting the "sacred institution of marriage" from the damage that it will suffer if same-sex couples get the right to enter into it?!
Wow! I always thought Mormons might be Morons, but not downright idiots!
To STEVE-0 | 6:24 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
You NEVER WILL hear one legitimate reason because your mind is closed. God
herself couldn't convince you if She appeared to you in a vision.
The "peice [sic] of paper" is exactly what gays want. It represents equal justice before the law.
The "peice [sic] of paper" is exactly what gays want. It represents equal justice before the law.
To Donna Summer | 6:55 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
"Let's all have a show of hands. How many of you would be willing to
be celibate your entire life?..."
IF it gains me eternal life with God, I'm all for it.
IF it gains me eternal life with God, I'm all for it.
Why do you choose this? | 7:33 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Why do Christian pro-homosexuals choose to completely ignore so many of the
BASIC lessons contained within the Bible?
Like what?, you ask.
Like the fact that God has rules. Most people in the Christian community call them commandments. It doesn't matter 2 cents what you call them but what IS important is that one understands that you can not just meander through life doing whatever you choose. Ever hear of the 10 Commandments? Or how about the Beatitudes?
Do any of THOSE rules mention homosexuality? Nope.
However, other verses of scripture from HIS prophets and spokesmen DO consistently condemn homosexuality.
Which brings us to the second lesson of the Bible; a lesson that Christ himself REPEATEDLY taught.
And that is, that if one chooses to break the rules of God, then God will justifiably punish that person unless they repent.
Does God believe in mercy? Sure. But does God believe in justice also? Yes. How can God be a fair and just God if He doesn't reward the obedient or...punish the child who refuses to obey?
Christ did NOT come to earth to give anyone a warm fuzzy! He came to teach the people the way to return to God.
Like what?, you ask.
Like the fact that God has rules. Most people in the Christian community call them commandments. It doesn't matter 2 cents what you call them but what IS important is that one understands that you can not just meander through life doing whatever you choose. Ever hear of the 10 Commandments? Or how about the Beatitudes?
Do any of THOSE rules mention homosexuality? Nope.
However, other verses of scripture from HIS prophets and spokesmen DO consistently condemn homosexuality.
Which brings us to the second lesson of the Bible; a lesson that Christ himself REPEATEDLY taught.
And that is, that if one chooses to break the rules of God, then God will justifiably punish that person unless they repent.
Does God believe in mercy? Sure. But does God believe in justice also? Yes. How can God be a fair and just God if He doesn't reward the obedient or...punish the child who refuses to obey?
Christ did NOT come to earth to give anyone a warm fuzzy! He came to teach the people the way to return to God.
To "Love" | 7:40 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
Why do you have hatred for things YOU don't understand? (It works both
ways)
You and your church do not understand gay people. Maybe you will someday. Until then:
1. We do not consider being gay a "sin".
2. This is who we are. If you don't like it don't associate with us. BUT we will have our rights in this country!
3. You don't have to "love" us. And you don't have to accept us. BUT you do have to tolerate us in the United States of America
You and your church do not understand gay people. Maybe you will someday. Until then:
1. We do not consider being gay a "sin".
2. This is who we are. If you don't like it don't associate with us. BUT we will have our rights in this country!
3. You don't have to "love" us. And you don't have to accept us. BUT you do have to tolerate us in the United States of America
To Many Will Leave | 7:47 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
What makes you think we'd start a church just like the one we freely chose
to leave? What makes you think homosexuality is the sole reason we left? What
makes you think we have guilt to placate?
There are some of us that found the world was a kinder, more humane place without the LDS church as part of our lives. There are some of us who continue to live by many of the same principles and standards, perhaps even in heightened ways in some instances. There really are some of us who are happier outside the church than we ever were in it.
I'm glad it works for many. However, it doesn't work for all.
There are some of us that found the world was a kinder, more humane place without the LDS church as part of our lives. There are some of us who continue to live by many of the same principles and standards, perhaps even in heightened ways in some instances. There really are some of us who are happier outside the church than we ever were in it.
I'm glad it works for many. However, it doesn't work for all.
John Pack Lambert | 8:18 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
To World-wide church,
There are a lot of issues you ignore. When there was a move to create casino gambling here in Detroit our local church leaders urged us to make our opposition to it felt.
A lot of the things like ballot initiatives are an American method.
There are more members outside the United States than inside the United States. However there are also several times as many people outside the United States than inside.
Richard Wilkins successful lobbying at the Istanbul Conference on the family was facilitated by a church member who was serving as an official delegate from Kenya. I believe his name was Jonathan Mwara, I am pretty sure I got the last name right but may have butchered the first name.
You ignore a few other factors. This is a paper published in the United States. Thus things in the United States recieve more interest than those elsewhere.
Secondly, actions in California could have repercussions all across the country.
There are a lot of issues you ignore. When there was a move to create casino gambling here in Detroit our local church leaders urged us to make our opposition to it felt.
A lot of the things like ballot initiatives are an American method.
There are more members outside the United States than inside the United States. However there are also several times as many people outside the United States than inside.
Richard Wilkins successful lobbying at the Istanbul Conference on the family was facilitated by a church member who was serving as an official delegate from Kenya. I believe his name was Jonathan Mwara, I am pretty sure I got the last name right but may have butchered the first name.
You ignore a few other factors. This is a paper published in the United States. Thus things in the United States recieve more interest than those elsewhere.
Secondly, actions in California could have repercussions all across the country.
Anonymous | 8:19 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
STEVE-O don't get out much, do he?
Dr. StrangeLove | 9:16 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
That is a strange sort of "love" you are showing your gay
"brothers and sisters" -- passing a constitutional amendment that
guarantees them status as second-class citizens, removes their equal protection
under the law, and hedges up their way to the pursuit of their own happiness?
Saying you "love" gays but hate their behavior as an excuse for taking away their fundamental civil rights and equality is the biggest lie Mormons have told since Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God!
You can stop saying you love us. We know it isn't true. You only make yourselves fools by doing so.
Saying you "love" gays but hate their behavior as an excuse for taking away their fundamental civil rights and equality is the biggest lie Mormons have told since Joseph Smith claimed to have seen God!
You can stop saying you love us. We know it isn't true. You only make yourselves fools by doing so.
Fundamentals | 10:06 p.m. Aug. 27, 2008
I think homosexuality is wrong - scientifically and morally. My two gay friends
disagree with me.
I support constitutional clarification and moral reiteration that homosexuality is wrong. They support allowing.
They won't convince me, and I won't convince them. We might debate it, ocassionally and roll our eyes at each others' arguments, and then go do something else.
I want to live in a society where my voice is heard, and I can change things to be the way I want them to be, and so do my friends.
Posters, do you think you're going to convince anybody of your point of view on this site? You won't. Only life experience will ever change the way anybody thinks. As I calmly step off of my small soap box, I leave the remaining podium time for the rest of you to rant.
Those few who are listening - shut your laptops, take a friend to lunch and t-a-l-k. It's amazing what friendly conversation can build over anonymous cyber-shouting.
I support constitutional clarification and moral reiteration that homosexuality is wrong. They support allowing.
They won't convince me, and I won't convince them. We might debate it, ocassionally and roll our eyes at each others' arguments, and then go do something else.
I want to live in a society where my voice is heard, and I can change things to be the way I want them to be, and so do my friends.
Posters, do you think you're going to convince anybody of your point of view on this site? You won't. Only life experience will ever change the way anybody thinks. As I calmly step off of my small soap box, I leave the remaining podium time for the rest of you to rant.
Those few who are listening - shut your laptops, take a friend to lunch and t-a-l-k. It's amazing what friendly conversation can build over anonymous cyber-shouting.
Majority? Not in the USA! | 2:05 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
In this country it is WRONG to be in the majority. If you are in the minority,
you have a voice that overrules all. If you are in the majority (ie: anti-gay
marriage), you are considered POLITICALLY INCORRECT and a HATE MONGER. That is
wrong.
The people spoke in 2000. They voted AGAINST gay marriage. However, the minority pushed so darn hard that JUDGES OVERRULED the MAJORITY of voters. Is that how America should work? People in Cali (not just Mormons) are working tirelessly against this not because they are hate-mongers, but because their MAJORITY position was overruled by overzealous judges. I don't really care who you are, if you are in the minority, you should not be allowed to overrule the majority. And the majority says NO to gay marriage.
This is not about being protected under the law. You already have protection. It's not about equality, either. It's about FORCING your minority agenda onto a MAJORITY that has already voted against you. It's called pushing until you break your opponent. Wear them down until they are so indoctrinated with your dogma, and so sick of hearing about it that they throw up their hands and give in.
The people spoke in 2000. They voted AGAINST gay marriage. However, the minority pushed so darn hard that JUDGES OVERRULED the MAJORITY of voters. Is that how America should work? People in Cali (not just Mormons) are working tirelessly against this not because they are hate-mongers, but because their MAJORITY position was overruled by overzealous judges. I don't really care who you are, if you are in the minority, you should not be allowed to overrule the majority. And the majority says NO to gay marriage.
This is not about being protected under the law. You already have protection. It's not about equality, either. It's about FORCING your minority agenda onto a MAJORITY that has already voted against you. It's called pushing until you break your opponent. Wear them down until they are so indoctrinated with your dogma, and so sick of hearing about it that they throw up their hands and give in.
Joe to Strangelove | 6:38 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
I have posted previously how gays wish to promote their "rights" while
taking away other's rights. (i.e. doctors not being allowed to deny their
services based upon religious convictions)
Is marriage a right or a privilege?
Do children enter into this world with a right or an expectation that they have both male and female role models to help them shape who they are and develop their gender identity?
The fact that so many heterosexual couples have fundamentally ruined their opportunity to provide a caring, loving, two parent family for their children really isn't a valid argument to institutionalize another broken alternative.
If gay couples wished to live their lives together without introducing children into the mix, then I would say more power to them. But, of course, gay couples want children, even though there is no natural way for the two of them to procreate. Therefore we must part ways specifically because of our concern for the children.
You may cry for your equal rights. I believe we are standing up for the rights of the children.
Is marriage a right or a privilege?
Do children enter into this world with a right or an expectation that they have both male and female role models to help them shape who they are and develop their gender identity?
The fact that so many heterosexual couples have fundamentally ruined their opportunity to provide a caring, loving, two parent family for their children really isn't a valid argument to institutionalize another broken alternative.
If gay couples wished to live their lives together without introducing children into the mix, then I would say more power to them. But, of course, gay couples want children, even though there is no natural way for the two of them to procreate. Therefore we must part ways specifically because of our concern for the children.
You may cry for your equal rights. I believe we are standing up for the rights of the children.
To Majority ? Not... | 8:19 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
In America, the majority usually rules, but not when the majority wants
something that has been ruled as unconstitutional. If the majority voted to
eliminate temple marriage THAT would be unconstitutional. Hopefully, our judges
would then rule against that.
Besides, for all of your complaining, the judges are still allowing another vote. Hopefully, this time the voters will be much more involved and more informed than the last time.
Also, don't you think that voters should ever be allowed to re-vote or change their minds? Especially when people wake up and realize that they were initially on the wrong side of history on this one?
Besides, for all of your complaining, the judges are still allowing another vote. Hopefully, this time the voters will be much more involved and more informed than the last time.
Also, don't you think that voters should ever be allowed to re-vote or change their minds? Especially when people wake up and realize that they were initially on the wrong side of history on this one?
Anonymous | 8:22 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
"Is marriage a right or a privilege?"
Right and privilege are synomous. Look it up.
"Do children enter into this world with a right or an expectation that they have both male and female role models to help them shape who they are and develop their gender identity?"
NO. If that were true, we would have OUTLAWED being a single parent. We would take any single parent's children and place them in a home with both a mother and a father. It is not a right and is not being practiced. What kind of world do you want to live in that tells people when and if they can have children?
Right and privilege are synomous. Look it up.
"Do children enter into this world with a right or an expectation that they have both male and female role models to help them shape who they are and develop their gender identity?"
NO. If that were true, we would have OUTLAWED being a single parent. We would take any single parent's children and place them in a home with both a mother and a father. It is not a right and is not being practiced. What kind of world do you want to live in that tells people when and if they can have children?
Mc | 9:17 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
Fundamentals
You are right that no gay person is going to change their minds or lifestyle from reading this thread and neither are any of those who are posting against gay marriage. But what of those who are on the fence trying to decide on this issue? If they read this thread and only see support for and arguments for gay marriage they may be swayed to support it. It is important to show that there are social, legal, and religious reasons to fight the legalization of gay marriage. We need to stand up for the traditional institution of marriage or soon it will mean nothing to anyone.
You are right that no gay person is going to change their minds or lifestyle from reading this thread and neither are any of those who are posting against gay marriage. But what of those who are on the fence trying to decide on this issue? If they read this thread and only see support for and arguments for gay marriage they may be swayed to support it. It is important to show that there are social, legal, and religious reasons to fight the legalization of gay marriage. We need to stand up for the traditional institution of marriage or soon it will mean nothing to anyone.
re John Pack Lambert | 9:45 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
re 5:03 poster--they never said the LDS Church burned people at the stake, they
were making the point that Religions, in general, through the ages, have treated
their gay brothers and sisters very, very badly.
To Anonymous @8:22 | 9:45 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
Good point "What kind of world do you want to live in that tells people
when and if they can have children?"
I remember one of the most fearful times of my life was right after we had received a baby from LDS Social Services. We had been told that this baby needed BOTH a mother and a father, yet we had to wait six months before the adoption was final. My greatest fear was that something tragic would happen to my husband, and then the baby I had grown to love would be taken from me, too. Just felt like we were walking on egg shells the whole time. I wouldn't wish that kind of apprehension on anyone.
It makes me have more empathy for gay couples who have children who worry that if something should happen to their partner then those children, that they have grown to love, might be taken away from them, too. Just one of many reasons why I support gay marriage.
I remember one of the most fearful times of my life was right after we had received a baby from LDS Social Services. We had been told that this baby needed BOTH a mother and a father, yet we had to wait six months before the adoption was final. My greatest fear was that something tragic would happen to my husband, and then the baby I had grown to love would be taken from me, too. Just felt like we were walking on egg shells the whole time. I wouldn't wish that kind of apprehension on anyone.
It makes me have more empathy for gay couples who have children who worry that if something should happen to their partner then those children, that they have grown to love, might be taken away from them, too. Just one of many reasons why I support gay marriage.
John Pack Lambert | 9:50 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
It was actually Rolf Szabo, but other than that I think the person who
mentioned him had a great point.
re: John Pack Lambert | 10:30 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
Sodomy was in fact punished by death in early Utah by the Mormon church. There
are journals in the Church archives that mention it and I have personally read
them when I was given access to them when I was a graduate student at BYU and
still an active member at the time.
Craig Smith | 11:51 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
Joseph Smith said, "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them
down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade
them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do,
only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."
(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 313.)
(Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 313.)
Craig Smith | 11:54 a.m. Aug. 28, 2008
D&C 134:4 and 1 Cor. 10:29 say that it is wrong for people to let their
religion/morals prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others.
Regarding D&C 134:4, consider this quote from a Doctrine & Covenants
commentary - "Religious freedom does not imply nor provide license to
infringe or impose upon the rights and liberties of others." (L. G. Otten
and C. M. Caldwell, Sacred Truths of the Doctrine and Covenants [Salt Lake City:
Deseret Book Co., 1982-1983], 2: 375.) The Church's opposition to Civil
Same-Sex Marriage is clearly and admittedly based on our religious beliefs. The
only issue that could be raised to defend this is whether or not people have a
civil right to marry the adult of their choice as Civil Same-Sex Marriage
allows.
Re: Craig Smith | 1:46 p.m. Aug. 28, 2008
Two posts without name calling, whining, etc. The two sides might not dislike
each other so much if the discussion went like Craig's.
Joe | 2:07 p.m. Aug. 28, 2008
Actually right and privilege are not exactly the same. You have the right to
free speech. You have the right to worship however you wish. You have a right
to self defense.
Typically rights cannot be regulated, privileges are regulated.
You do not have a right to drive a car; it is a privilege afforded to only those who have a valid license. The government treats marriage as a privilege, rather than a right. You have to have a license to be wed in the eyes of the state, and you must meet certain qualifications to be wed. Typically, you have not been able to marry your sister, and historically you were tested to make sure you were free from STDs.
Adopting a child has also been considered a privilege, with preference given to married, heterosexual couples. Sometimes exceptions were made; I know two sisters well who have raised a fine young man, and he calls them both mom.
But I believe as a general principle, society is best served by giving preference to adopting couples consisting of a man and a woman. If gay marriage is legalized, no preference can be given.
Typically rights cannot be regulated, privileges are regulated.
You do not have a right to drive a car; it is a privilege afforded to only those who have a valid license. The government treats marriage as a privilege, rather than a right. You have to have a license to be wed in the eyes of the state, and you must meet certain qualifications to be wed. Typically, you have not been able to marry your sister, and historically you were tested to make sure you were free from STDs.
Adopting a child has also been considered a privilege, with preference given to married, heterosexual couples. Sometimes exceptions were made; I know two sisters well who have raised a fine young man, and he calls them both mom.
But I believe as a general principle, society is best served by giving preference to adopting couples consisting of a man and a woman. If gay marriage is legalized, no preference can be given.
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