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FLDS child-custody evidence is subject of dispute
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L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 4:42 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
How in the name of all that's holy does this judge continually get away
with these flagrant violations of the U. S. Constitution?
Why hasn't she been removed from the Bench, disbarred, prosecuted, and jailed for these little habits?
Are these actions just happening to the FLDS, or has she been doing this for years?
Why hasn't she been removed from the Bench, disbarred, prosecuted, and jailed for these little habits?
Are these actions just happening to the FLDS, or has she been doing this for years?
5 th ammendment | 5:41 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
So you don't incriminate ones self
This evidence was gotten through a raid caused by a hoax
Tesas is be coming a laughing stock of the Nation
I assume you people saw the Picture of a War Tank with the word Sherriff on it?
The Civil Police have no need for Military Weaponry.
This very well could have been another firey Waco all over.
We have a Major Civil Rights Violation my the Cops
This evidence was gotten through a raid caused by a hoax
Tesas is be coming a laughing stock of the Nation
I assume you people saw the Picture of a War Tank with the word Sherriff on it?
The Civil Police have no need for Military Weaponry.
This very well could have been another firey Waco all over.
We have a Major Civil Rights Violation my the Cops
Comments continue below
There's no evidence to give | 6:13 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
"In a case with more than 140 mothers and 400 children, all of whom have
lawyers, we maintain, and hope to show at the hearing on Sept. 4, that formal
discovery ... is virtually impossible," [Childress] wrote.
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My God, isn't it obvious how Childress is lying once again? He and the judge are conspiring to deny these mothers access to the evidence against them, because for most of them (if not all of them) the evidence does not exist.
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My God, isn't it obvious how Childress is lying once again? He and the judge are conspiring to deny these mothers access to the evidence against them, because for most of them (if not all of them) the evidence does not exist.
nosugrof | 6:18 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
By suspending the right of discovery, CPS was able to rig the case against
Barbara and Merriane Jessop. CPS is still trouting out the tired excuse that it
is just too much bother to proceed with due process.
Attorney | 6:57 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
If formal discovery is "virtually impossible," then prosecution or
child seizure from parents should be stayed until formal discover becomes
possible. This is getting to be completely bizarre.
Federal oversight for CPS | 7:11 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
"Are these actions just happening to the FLDS, or has she been doing this
for years?"
---------
I don't know about the judge, but CPS has been doing this for years and getting away with it. Obviously, the state is not going to rein them in, for they�re doing the state�s dirty work. The only solution is to put CPS under the close oversight of a federal court for five or ten years, or however long it takes to change their culture of lying and abuse of families.
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I don't know about the judge, but CPS has been doing this for years and getting away with it. Obviously, the state is not going to rein them in, for they�re doing the state�s dirty work. The only solution is to put CPS under the close oversight of a federal court for five or ten years, or however long it takes to change their culture of lying and abuse of families.
zxcvbnm | 7:21 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Don't think that this is simply one little glitch in a system overloaded by the numbers in the case.
Some of the information CPS that CPS has used against the group has been released publicly....all they have to do is put an "official" stamp on the stuff and turn it over.
As long as "evidence" isn't "evidence" it can't be used as "evidence" while the state gathers more "evidence".
If or when the "evidence" is thrown out because of the nature of its retrieval the cases that have already been decided based on the "evidence" will stand because the "evidence" that hasn't been declared "evidence" will have already been decided.
The last article written concerning the investigation of the "evidence" refered to 17 investigaters having finished with the "hard" files and photos and they were starting on the computer files.
I hear that the last disc that was retrieved has a message from jeffs with a big happy face followed by the words April Fool........... but we won't know for sure until the "evidence" is in.
Cats | 8:01 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Well, the FLDS are blogging en masse, again. Actually, it's probably the
same person blogging under different names.
This is so funny the way you people keep trying to convince everyone that the judge, the State of Texas and CPS have a vendetta against the FLDS. They've just got you targeted. Like they don't have anything else to do? Like They're just deliberating trying to destroy you?
These people are doing the best they can to try and protect children against abuse. They are just trying to do the job they have been given. They may have made a few mistakes, but they're doing their best.
What you people can't stand is the fact that the light of day is finally shining on the sick and illegal practices that the FLDS have been engaging in for generations. It's about time. Utah and Arizona have turned a blind eye for too long. If the FLDS weren't engaging in illegal, immoral and abusive practices, this NEVER would have happened. You have NO ON TO BLAME BUT YOURSELVES.
This is so funny the way you people keep trying to convince everyone that the judge, the State of Texas and CPS have a vendetta against the FLDS. They've just got you targeted. Like they don't have anything else to do? Like They're just deliberating trying to destroy you?
These people are doing the best they can to try and protect children against abuse. They are just trying to do the job they have been given. They may have made a few mistakes, but they're doing their best.
What you people can't stand is the fact that the light of day is finally shining on the sick and illegal practices that the FLDS have been engaging in for generations. It's about time. Utah and Arizona have turned a blind eye for too long. If the FLDS weren't engaging in illegal, immoral and abusive practices, this NEVER would have happened. You have NO ON TO BLAME BUT YOURSELVES.
OK Cats............. | 8:31 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Show me the evidence........FLS bloggers....so I guess you are an anti flds blogger.....blogg on.
evensteven | 8:37 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Generally Cats is quite lucid on these boards. However, today she has fallen
into that old trap of the ends justifying the means. Because "these people
are doing the best they can to try and protect children against abuse. They are
just trying to do the job they have been given", trampling on civil rights
and ignoring due process are ok? To say nothing of the emotional or physical
injury the purported victims and perpetrators may have suffered in the
process.
This is a mess and virtually everyone knows it. CPS is trying allege abuse based on the religion/culture of this group. Their evidence about specific incidents is largely based on hearsay. Any hard evidence is being culled from records seized in the raid, which may be inadmissable. After raising the leagal age of marriage from 14 to 16, TX now has to prove the underage marriages occurred in TX within the proper timeframe.
Given TX precendent setting sexual behavior laws, look for some enterprising lawyer to make a run at striking down the statutory rape law. If the girl can consent to an abortion, why can't she consent to sex, even with a much older man? It's a mess.
This is a mess and virtually everyone knows it. CPS is trying allege abuse based on the religion/culture of this group. Their evidence about specific incidents is largely based on hearsay. Any hard evidence is being culled from records seized in the raid, which may be inadmissable. After raising the leagal age of marriage from 14 to 16, TX now has to prove the underage marriages occurred in TX within the proper timeframe.
Given TX precendent setting sexual behavior laws, look for some enterprising lawyer to make a run at striking down the statutory rape law. If the girl can consent to an abortion, why can't she consent to sex, even with a much older man? It's a mess.
Cats | 8:55 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Hmmm! I don't recall ever saying what sex I am. Apparently it is assumed
that I'm a woman.
Evensteven: I'm sorry you don't think I'm as lucid as usual. I'm just really sick and tired of all these irrational attacks on the Judge and CPS. The only reason this thing has happened to begin with is because the FLDS have engaged in illegal behaviors. CPS has been given a charge to protect children. When they find evidence of crimes against children, they have no choice but to act.
This thing will all be sorted out in the end. I believe there will be leaders and members of the FLDS that will probably go to jail. There will probably be endangered children who will be seized from unsafe environments. I also believe there will be others who will be left alone.
You may not use religion as an excuse to commit crimes. If you are going to flaunt the law, abuse children, force young girls into underage marriages, engage in child rape, break up families through reassignment, seize homes and throw young boys out into the cold, you are asking for it.
THE FLDS HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES!
Evensteven: I'm sorry you don't think I'm as lucid as usual. I'm just really sick and tired of all these irrational attacks on the Judge and CPS. The only reason this thing has happened to begin with is because the FLDS have engaged in illegal behaviors. CPS has been given a charge to protect children. When they find evidence of crimes against children, they have no choice but to act.
This thing will all be sorted out in the end. I believe there will be leaders and members of the FLDS that will probably go to jail. There will probably be endangered children who will be seized from unsafe environments. I also believe there will be others who will be left alone.
You may not use religion as an excuse to commit crimes. If you are going to flaunt the law, abuse children, force young girls into underage marriages, engage in child rape, break up families through reassignment, seize homes and throw young boys out into the cold, you are asking for it.
THE FLDS HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES!
Hmmmmm!!!!!! | 9:13 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Cat likes to call anyone with a difference of opinion than hers, FLDS. Like as
if this is school children calling names game. This has to do with
people's lives. Shame on you Cat for not upholding the Constitution that
even gives you freedom to name call and get away with it.
To Cats/8:55 | 9:17 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
It is evident that you have never had to deal with CPS and the court system that
works WITH them. I have and what is going on in Texas is very typical. CPS and
the court system 'wash each other's back'. What CPS wants they
get. They need to prove very little and most of it is by their say-so. If CPS
whats the children bad enough they will use sexual abuse to the child. In order
to get a parent to give up their Parental Rights they threaten the parent with a
trial that they will be put in jail.
CPS 95% of the time get exactly what they want and it is because they and the Judge get paid by the same people - our tax dollars.
I strongly recommand looking up "Maine, A law unto itself" It will also lead to other major cases throughout the country. It will show just how buddy buddy CPS and the court system is.
CPS 95% of the time get exactly what they want and it is because they and the Judge get paid by the same people - our tax dollars.
I strongly recommand looking up "Maine, A law unto itself" It will also lead to other major cases throughout the country. It will show just how buddy buddy CPS and the court system is.
sosugrof | 9:19 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Cats, I am not from the FLDS. I have never even met a mmember of the FLDS. Cats,
normal people are upset by the abuse of power. CPS has been given too much power
and this is the result.
Evidence of Neglect | 9:31 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
FLDS, is it wrong what I heard, that if some of your young boys don't want
to live your religion to the fullest, you kick them out of the house and
community before they are ready to fend for themselves?
If this is not true, please tell the world, if it is, then you have your own evidence of neglect and abuse, why fight what Texas is doing?
If this is true, then treat all that is happening to you as a blessing, your culture is being transformed from the outside, since you refuse to do it from within.
If this is not true, please tell the world, if it is, then you have your own evidence of neglect and abuse, why fight what Texas is doing?
If this is true, then treat all that is happening to you as a blessing, your culture is being transformed from the outside, since you refuse to do it from within.
Cats | 9:33 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Sosugrof: You are certainly entitled to your opinions and I support that right.
However, may I just say, if you really had more contact and knew much about the
FLDS and their practices, you might have some adjustment to your opinions.
There really are victims there that need help. Regardless of how you feel about some of the mistakes that have been made by the State of Texas, this might be their best chance to get help. Many former FLDS members are really hoping this intervention will be the chance for a new life for these victims. I hope so, too.
There really are victims there that need help. Regardless of how you feel about some of the mistakes that have been made by the State of Texas, this might be their best chance to get help. Many former FLDS members are really hoping this intervention will be the chance for a new life for these victims. I hope so, too.
Joey | 9:47 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Cats, the state of Texas should be held to a higher standard, since they have
the burden of proof. They should not be allowed to "make mistakes"
when they feel like it. That's just an excuse to be a police state and an
affront to all of us. And I'm not FLDS but I am outraged that the state
doesn't think Due Process is important enough to preserve it at all times.
I think the state should apologize and get out of the way until it can start over on legal grounds. It should have done that a long time ago.
I think the state should apologize and get out of the way until it can start over on legal grounds. It should have done that a long time ago.
Cats | 10:00 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
To Evidence of Neglect: Yes, it is true that the FLDS throw a lot of young boys
out into the street--on any excuse. The older men don't want that much
competition for wives and there aren't enough to go around.
Jeffs has excommunicated men and also taken homes and families away from them because he felt some threat to his power. These women and children get reassigned to other men at the whim of the leadership.
This, among many other reasons, is why these people need help. This abuse has gone on for generations. I hope people won't continue to defend this kind of behavior. Former FLDS members have expressed the hope that this will help these victims. They say there have been so many who have offered to help them for about a second and then have gone away and left the wreakage behind without really doing anything.
I hope this time will be different.
Jeffs has excommunicated men and also taken homes and families away from them because he felt some threat to his power. These women and children get reassigned to other men at the whim of the leadership.
This, among many other reasons, is why these people need help. This abuse has gone on for generations. I hope people won't continue to defend this kind of behavior. Former FLDS members have expressed the hope that this will help these victims. They say there have been so many who have offered to help them for about a second and then have gone away and left the wreakage behind without really doing anything.
I hope this time will be different.
evensteven | 10:01 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Sorry if I missed on the gender, Cats. Felines are feminine where I come
from.
Having deep So. Utah roots (one of the founding families), I am well aware of the issues you raise about the FLDS community. However, insinuation, innuendo, belief or gossip is not evidentiarily sufficient for what CPS is doing. If there is clear evidence, legally obtained, then by all means prosecute. Until there is that evidence, we must just hold our noses and work for a better solution. CPS does not have the right, in the name of doing something good, to ignore due process. As difficult and heart-wrenching as that may be, we must abide by the law or it becomes meaningless.
Having deep So. Utah roots (one of the founding families), I am well aware of the issues you raise about the FLDS community. However, insinuation, innuendo, belief or gossip is not evidentiarily sufficient for what CPS is doing. If there is clear evidence, legally obtained, then by all means prosecute. Until there is that evidence, we must just hold our noses and work for a better solution. CPS does not have the right, in the name of doing something good, to ignore due process. As difficult and heart-wrenching as that may be, we must abide by the law or it becomes meaningless.
Evidence of Neglect? | 10:04 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
"Evidence of Neglect" said: "if some of your young boys
don't want to live your religion to the fullest, you kick them out of the
house and community before they are ready to fend for themselves?"
-------------
Boys kicked out and women trying to escape. Tired claims with no evidence whatsoever. What boy was kicked out of the YFZ ranch? What woman escaped? None that you can name, because these are just popaganda claims put out by the anti-FLDS types. If women wanted to escape from the YFZ ranch, wouldn't you think they would have done so, now that Texas is right there to "help" them? Or if children were being abused, wouldn't even one of these children say so? 460 kids is a lot of kids. Evidence of Neglect? More like Lack of Evidence.
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Boys kicked out and women trying to escape. Tired claims with no evidence whatsoever. What boy was kicked out of the YFZ ranch? What woman escaped? None that you can name, because these are just popaganda claims put out by the anti-FLDS types. If women wanted to escape from the YFZ ranch, wouldn't you think they would have done so, now that Texas is right there to "help" them? Or if children were being abused, wouldn't even one of these children say so? 460 kids is a lot of kids. Evidence of Neglect? More like Lack of Evidence.
No Evidence of Abuse? | 10:04 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
FDLS, you force young girls to get married to much older men, and deny them the
chance to marry guys their own age which they would obviously prefer to do.
You kick young teen boys out of the house and community before they have the skills to make it on their own.
How much more evidence do you need that you abuse young people?
Why don't you start acting like the christians you claim to be?
You ought to be grateful that society at large is taking an interest in you, and helping you to heal your culture. This is certainly a blessing in desguise for you.
You kick young teen boys out of the house and community before they have the skills to make it on their own.
How much more evidence do you need that you abuse young people?
Why don't you start acting like the christians you claim to be?
You ought to be grateful that society at large is taking an interest in you, and helping you to heal your culture. This is certainly a blessing in desguise for you.
zxcvbnm | 10:14 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Four years of information from an informant would not allow Doran to get on that ranch and "investigate" wild rumors and accusations .....four years of already debunked garbage has surfaced.
It took rewriteing laws........nonexistant victims with annonymous calls.........CPS with the defacto power to protect nonexistant victims and gain entry to a community and see things that weren't going on to circumvent the law.
Now CPS holds a child against her will to protect her from a man in prison and her missing father.
The CPS and their court system is set up to circumvent the constitution of this country and has been used by politicians to avoid normal legal restraints on governmental power.
tigerlily | 10:25 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
L G she doing it because of their religion and that is wrong. she obviously
thinks she can do whatever she wants.
Anonymous | 10:41 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
This stuff all has a strong stinky oder. i am tired of FlDS...whewwwy!
Cats | 10:59 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
The reason these women and children aren't talking is because they are
obviously scared to death. Clearly Teresa Jeffs said something to the
authorities when she was out of the control of the FLDS. She has clearly
changed her story now that she is under their control again. It's pretty
hard to help people when the victims are too afraid or to brainwashed to
talk.
Many have fled from the FLDS communities in Utah and Arizona. But, there aren't huge walls around Hilldale and Colorado City. And, there are mountains of evidence of abuse, etc. Many of those who have fled, (including boys who have been kicked out) have told their stories. They all say they didn't realize they were brainwashed until they got away. Now, they see it all too clearly. They are credible witness to the myriad abuses and crimes that go on.
I hope Utah, Arizona, Texas and other states as well as the Federal Government can find some way to put a stop to this. And, as far as rights are concerned. The FLDS have trampled on the rights of many victims for generations.
Evensteven: You are a good person and I appreciate your comments.
Many have fled from the FLDS communities in Utah and Arizona. But, there aren't huge walls around Hilldale and Colorado City. And, there are mountains of evidence of abuse, etc. Many of those who have fled, (including boys who have been kicked out) have told their stories. They all say they didn't realize they were brainwashed until they got away. Now, they see it all too clearly. They are credible witness to the myriad abuses and crimes that go on.
I hope Utah, Arizona, Texas and other states as well as the Federal Government can find some way to put a stop to this. And, as far as rights are concerned. The FLDS have trampled on the rights of many victims for generations.
Evensteven: You are a good person and I appreciate your comments.
Joey | 11:21 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Childress is throwing out red herrings about CPS being overworked, and yada
yada; he knows that excuse won't carry weight on appeal. The real issue
should be the fact that she made an exparte order. Judge Walther should be
disbarred or strongly and publicy told to recuse herself for such a flagrant
violation of 700 people's Due Process rights.
nosugrof | 11:25 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Cats According to you, These women were "rescued" by the raid at El
Dorado. Facts are stubborn things. It should be embarrasing for you that not a
single woman left the FLDS. I know you will keep on spouting your propaganda.
But they are contradicted by the truth.
zxcvbnm | 11:34 a.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Texas tanks.......rolling into a church near you.
Texas justice......if they can't get ya......they make new laws.
Texas jurisprudence.....we have the illegaly gathered "evidence" .....you can't see it.
If we can't find pregnant teens......make them up.
If we can't bust people for what they do......bust them for what they want to do.
Beyond ludicrous | 12:00 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Cats said: "The reason these women and children aren't talking is
because they are obviously scared to death. Clearly Teresa Jeffs said something
to the authorities when she was out of the control of the FLDS. She has clearly
changed her story now that she is under their control again."
---------------
Is that the best you can do? Good lord! 700 souls, and not even one corroborates your nonsense, so you say that Teresa �clearly� said something to somebody, but you don't know what it is. That's it? This same Teresa who fought in public with her drug and child abusing, court-appointed attorney? Teresa, who in no uncertain terms, said what she thought of her attorney and this whole affair? You're trying to put words into her mouth? And not even words, because you can't think of anything to have her say! This is beyond ludicrous. It's idiotic.
---------------
Is that the best you can do? Good lord! 700 souls, and not even one corroborates your nonsense, so you say that Teresa �clearly� said something to somebody, but you don't know what it is. That's it? This same Teresa who fought in public with her drug and child abusing, court-appointed attorney? Teresa, who in no uncertain terms, said what she thought of her attorney and this whole affair? You're trying to put words into her mouth? And not even words, because you can't think of anything to have her say! This is beyond ludicrous. It's idiotic.
Re: nosugrof | 12:00 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Funny thing about "facts." You pick the ones you that support your
cause and conveniently ignore the rest.
Fact: Warren Jeffs and other FLDS men have routinely engaged in the rape of underage girls.
Fact: The women in the community have facilitated the rape of their own daughters.
Fact: These practices will continue unhindered unless law enforcement steps in.
I applaud Texas and CPS for having the intestinal fortitude to do what Utah and Arizona have shrunk from doing for years. The FLDS have utterly failed to honor, uphold, and sustain the law from their inception, and now they try to run under the skirts of the law for protect. Ironic.
Fact: Warren Jeffs and other FLDS men have routinely engaged in the rape of underage girls.
Fact: The women in the community have facilitated the rape of their own daughters.
Fact: These practices will continue unhindered unless law enforcement steps in.
I applaud Texas and CPS for having the intestinal fortitude to do what Utah and Arizona have shrunk from doing for years. The FLDS have utterly failed to honor, uphold, and sustain the law from their inception, and now they try to run under the skirts of the law for protect. Ironic.
If you are Innocent, then SUE | 12:57 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
re Evidence of Neglect? | 10:04
I am not anti FLDS, just a regular person who reads the news,
You deny that the "lost boys" exist, that the FLDS religion doesn't kick out young boys from the house and community before they are ready to fend for themselves?
If this is so, you ought to sue any newspaper or news organization that prints this slander, why don't you do it? Unless of course you are guilty.
All the time I hear of people suing news organizations for slander, for printing/broadcasting things which are not true and that hurt someone's or some organization's reputation.
If it isn't true that you force young boys out of the community to make room for pologamy, then sue them.
The fact you haven't sued them yet is evidence to me and to many that you are guilty. If I am wrong and you are not guilty, then sue these news organizations.
I am not anti FLDS, just a regular person who reads the news,
You deny that the "lost boys" exist, that the FLDS religion doesn't kick out young boys from the house and community before they are ready to fend for themselves?
If this is so, you ought to sue any newspaper or news organization that prints this slander, why don't you do it? Unless of course you are guilty.
All the time I hear of people suing news organizations for slander, for printing/broadcasting things which are not true and that hurt someone's or some organization's reputation.
If it isn't true that you force young boys out of the community to make room for pologamy, then sue them.
The fact you haven't sued them yet is evidence to me and to many that you are guilty. If I am wrong and you are not guilty, then sue these news organizations.
Re: If you are Innocent | 1:29 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
"You deny that the "lost boys" exist, that the FLDS religion
doesn't kick out young boys from the house and community before they are
ready to fend for themselves?"
------------
You might be a little confused. I'm not FLDS, and I didn't say that the FLDS hasn't kicked anyone out, as I'm sure most religions do. However, I've yet to hear of a "lost boy" from the YFZ ranch, nor of anyone "escaping" from there. This whole case is about the YFZ ranch, remember. And as for these folks not suing proving somehow that they are guilty, that's both hilarious and premature. I'm sure they'll get around to it.
------------
You might be a little confused. I'm not FLDS, and I didn't say that the FLDS hasn't kicked anyone out, as I'm sure most religions do. However, I've yet to hear of a "lost boy" from the YFZ ranch, nor of anyone "escaping" from there. This whole case is about the YFZ ranch, remember. And as for these folks not suing proving somehow that they are guilty, that's both hilarious and premature. I'm sure they'll get around to it.
zxcvbnm | 1:43 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Teresa clearly said something.......who says she has said anything,,,,,,MALONIS.
Good ole Malonis.....the lawyer that says something about nothing while getting more than her share of airtime on Nancy Grace.
Keep pointing to Teresa as proof of rape and the 17 year old will get on the stand with her medical report supporting the fact that she has never had sex. Heck, Malonis will even testify that the once accused pregnant teen was never pregnant and bring CPS evidence to prove it.
Perhaps FLDS will sue the persons responsible for the false stories but why waste their time. Reading the national enquirer knockoffs is punishment enough.
re 1:29 | 1:50 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
If it is an FLDS practice to force young teen boys out of the home and community
before they are ready to live life on their own, Why is it that the ones in
Texas don't do this too? I don't believe that they don't do this
given the fact that this is the practice of all the other FLDS, and the ones in
Texas came from Utah and Arizona.
The FLDS should be grateful that the larger community has taken the responsibility to reform their degenerate culture. It is for the FLDS own good that society is doing this.
The FLDS should be grateful that the larger community has taken the responsibility to reform their degenerate culture. It is for the FLDS own good that society is doing this.
Makes you wonder | 2:43 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
"The FLDS should be grateful that the larger community has taken the
responsibility to reform their degenerate culture. It is for the FLDS own good
that society is doing this."
-------------
Isn't that the truth! How ungrateful these people are! Over 700 of them, and NOT ONE has expressed any gratitude. Kinda makes you wonder why anyone would bother if they're not going to appreciate it.
-------------
Isn't that the truth! How ungrateful these people are! Over 700 of them, and NOT ONE has expressed any gratitude. Kinda makes you wonder why anyone would bother if they're not going to appreciate it.
tigerlily | 4:47 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
they can't prosecute them because of their religion
Where have you been? | 5:51 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
There are numerous reported stories on the FLDS people (and other polygamous
groups) with lots of evidence and court cases (a number with the men found
"guilty" as charged) in Utah and Arizona (maybe others)
Why would you think that the ranch in Texas would be any different? These people came from the other areas and have the same leaders? Is this to hard for you to accept because you had past relatives in it (or maybe current realitives)? Face it and move on. These groups hurt people...not all the people do, but the beliefs do!
Why would you think that the ranch in Texas would be any different? These people came from the other areas and have the same leaders? Is this to hard for you to accept because you had past relatives in it (or maybe current realitives)? Face it and move on. These groups hurt people...not all the people do, but the beliefs do!
re Makes you wonder | 2:43 p.m. | 7:32 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
I agree its a thankless task, but its for the good of their children.
What kind of parents would kick the young boys out and force the daughters to marry old men anyway?
What kind of parents would kick the young boys out and force the daughters to marry old men anyway?
ABCDEFG..... | 7:44 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
To 2:43
Bonehead knuckleheads that's what.
Bonehead knuckleheads that's what.
use to be flds | 8:03 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
the flds scream and holler about the way people are judging them. I can
personally tell all of you that they teach and show these children how to be
hatefull and judgmental of anyone other than flds.There is a visicous hated of
anyone who does not believe as they do. Name calling from cars,things being
throw at you from cars,trucks surving at you while walking. These parents have
taught these children that this is an acceptable way of treating people if they
dont believe as they do. We lived in total fear of these angry hateful people.
Apprecation and respect of another person veiw and understanding of God was not
tolerated but must be forced out. Take your home family anything of the greatest
value in life. The law of Karma is in action here. What goes around comes
around. And it will keep happening until the lesson is learned. The window of
opportunity is here. Is it possible the flds have the opportunity to see what
they have created ,by being in complete disreguard of human life? These children
deserve better than what you have be teaching them. What you have been
Programmed. Strict obedience to man.
innocent? | 8:49 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
for a bunch of "innocent" people, you sure do whine a lot about trying
to prevent evidence. If you're so innocent, why do you care? You should
be "hey - bring on the evidence".
You do realize that you brought this all on yourselves, right?
why don't you take your medicine like a man (or woman). It's not like you're actually innocent.
stop playing the system, fix your messed up organization, and move on.
You give every normal american the heebie-jeebies. Stop it.
You do realize that you brought this all on yourselves, right?
why don't you take your medicine like a man (or woman). It's not like you're actually innocent.
stop playing the system, fix your messed up organization, and move on.
You give every normal american the heebie-jeebies. Stop it.
R | 9:34 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
//Sorry if I missed on the gender, Cats. Felines are feminine where I come
from.//
Do you also think they reproduce asexually? I don't agree with a thing Cats has written, but that is still a very ignorant comment.
Do you also think they reproduce asexually? I don't agree with a thing Cats has written, but that is still a very ignorant comment.
R | 9:35 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
//Clearly Teresa Jeffs said something to the authorities when she was out of the
control of the FLDS. She has clearly changed her story now that she is under
their control again.//
Oh, what might that be? Would be about her "child" that no-one seems to be able to find?
Re: innocent?
It's only the CPS agents that are trying to prevent evidence - evidence against them, that is. They don't want the world to see the conditions the mothers and children are imprisoned in, so they confiscate cellphones. They don't want parents and children to have access to the evidence against them, so they bribe or otherwise persuade [not really sure how] Walthers to suspend discovery.
Oh, what might that be? Would be about her "child" that no-one seems to be able to find?
Re: innocent?
It's only the CPS agents that are trying to prevent evidence - evidence against them, that is. They don't want the world to see the conditions the mothers and children are imprisoned in, so they confiscate cellphones. They don't want parents and children to have access to the evidence against them, so they bribe or otherwise persuade [not really sure how] Walthers to suspend discovery.
realitycheck | 9:56 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
those of you that keep asking why YFZ wasn't kicking out the young boys/men
- it's because there weren't that many yet. They just started YFZ and
no one had grown up there yet. There weren't too many boys yet.
It's not that they weren't kicking out young boys/men yet. They just didn't have enough of them that they had to get rid of any yet. The only people at YFZ were the MOST loyal to Jeffs. Why do you think he did all those marriages so quickly? Because no one there would say no, because they were his chosen few.
Given a little time, they would have had to even the score and start booting out boys so the older men could have more wives. Simple math.
So don't say "they didn't kick anyone out at YFZ". If you're going to say anything about it, at least be honest and say "they hadn't needed to kick out any boys yet."
It's not that they weren't kicking out young boys/men yet. They just didn't have enough of them that they had to get rid of any yet. The only people at YFZ were the MOST loyal to Jeffs. Why do you think he did all those marriages so quickly? Because no one there would say no, because they were his chosen few.
Given a little time, they would have had to even the score and start booting out boys so the older men could have more wives. Simple math.
So don't say "they didn't kick anyone out at YFZ". If you're going to say anything about it, at least be honest and say "they hadn't needed to kick out any boys yet."
re - R 9:34am | 10:07 a.m. Aug. 25, 2008
yeah, CPS also doesn't want video of a crying teenager on the internet, but
FLDS parents have no problem putting it on there.
What is the most amusing is they shot themselves in the foot. This girl is a married woman, yet cries like a little girl.
So which is it? Is she a little girl, as FLDS portrayed in the video (looking for sympathy) or is she a married woman who has no busines acting so childish? Pick one. Can't have both.
And correct me if I'm wrong (even though I'm not) - but isn't it FLDS that's trying to get the evidence thrown out? So do innocent people really do that, or do they want everything to come out to prove their innocence?
Face it, R - you are causing way more harm to these kids than CPS could do in a lifetime, and they will need YEARS of therapy just to think straight. You talk about "imprisonment" yet FLDS has been imprisoning these kids for generations.
Why is your church so much more important than your family? You know that's not what God wants. Better check your priorities.
What is the most amusing is they shot themselves in the foot. This girl is a married woman, yet cries like a little girl.
So which is it? Is she a little girl, as FLDS portrayed in the video (looking for sympathy) or is she a married woman who has no busines acting so childish? Pick one. Can't have both.
And correct me if I'm wrong (even though I'm not) - but isn't it FLDS that's trying to get the evidence thrown out? So do innocent people really do that, or do they want everything to come out to prove their innocence?
Face it, R - you are causing way more harm to these kids than CPS could do in a lifetime, and they will need YEARS of therapy just to think straight. You talk about "imprisonment" yet FLDS has been imprisoning these kids for generations.
Why is your church so much more important than your family? You know that's not what God wants. Better check your priorities.
Interloper | 2:38 p.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Yawn. Abuse of discovery is a sanctionable offense under the Rules of
Professional Conduct. Martinez and Balovich have also been the lawyers behind
other efforts to delay action in the FLDS cases by burying CPS and the court in
paperwork, and, waste time and resources with pointless hearings. They have
been successfully thwarted and will be again.
The mothers will learn whether there is evidence of child abuse in their cases soon enough. In fact they already are as the state nonsuits some cases, brings indictments in others and, in at least three so far, challenges living arrangements.
Once again, the appeals courts did not find there was no evidence of child abuse. They found that there was not sufficient evidence to believe most of the children were in danger of abuse.
The mothers will learn whether there is evidence of child abuse in their cases soon enough. In fact they already are as the state nonsuits some cases, brings indictments in others and, in at least three so far, challenges living arrangements.
Once again, the appeals courts did not find there was no evidence of child abuse. They found that there was not sufficient evidence to believe most of the children were in danger of abuse.
Red | 3:48 p.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Cats 8:55 am: "You may not use religion as an excuse to commit
crimes."
Strewth.
OTOH, "you" (in this case, the State) may not use your prejudice against a religion as an excuse to commit crimes, either.
If some FLDS commit crimes, the effect is localized, and a prompt, legal response by the State can handle the situation.
If the State commits crimes under color of law, the entire fabric of civilization is at risk.
We give some people the right to use deadly force in our name, to terminate our liberty, and order body cavity searches. These people must be held to the highest of standards.
Strewth.
OTOH, "you" (in this case, the State) may not use your prejudice against a religion as an excuse to commit crimes, either.
If some FLDS commit crimes, the effect is localized, and a prompt, legal response by the State can handle the situation.
If the State commits crimes under color of law, the entire fabric of civilization is at risk.
We give some people the right to use deadly force in our name, to terminate our liberty, and order body cavity searches. These people must be held to the highest of standards.
Gal50 | 6:49 p.m. Aug. 25, 2008
Obviously, there are a lot of abuse issues within the FLDS as ex-FLDS often
spend a decade in therapy. Some of the abuse is not abuse that CPS investigates.
Forcing children to wear long underwear under long dresses in the heat of summer
is one abuse that CPS permitted. Some of the abuse clearly exists but can't
be tied to individual families. There are far more teen girls than teen boys.
What happened to these missing teen boys? Some of the abuse is abuse that
religions are allowed to force onto their adherents. The church in the last
decade or so decided that children should not be immunized and the children as a
result contracted a major disease prior to being in CPS custody. CPS only made
the children receive immunizations while in custody. A lot of the abuse is
difficult to document. When does indoctrinating people to be obedient become
abuse? How much indoctrination have the children received? The FLDS are
unwilling to discuss abuse and deny other abuse. On the stand, FLDS simply
"don't remember" or "plead the 5th." They repetitively
state that their sexual abuse victims were not victimized despite photographic
evidence to the contrary.
R | 6:05 a.m. Aug. 26, 2008
Gal50, does CPS have an itemized list of clothes that should be permitted in the
summer?
//There are far more teen girls than teen boys. What happened to these missing teen boys? //
Name the ones that are missing, and maybe LE can start looking for them. :)
//The church in the last decade or so decided that children should not be immunized and the children as a result contracted a major disease prior to being in CPS custody//
The FLDS say otherwise - they don't claim that they have rules against immunization, that it's left up to the families. Some parents claimed they immunized their children. And BTW - most of the children were perfectly healthy prior to being confined in close living spaces.
//When does indoctrinating people to be obedient become abuse? How much indoctrination have the children received? //
When did it become the duty of government to judge what's "indoctrination"?
//There are far more teen girls than teen boys. What happened to these missing teen boys? //
Name the ones that are missing, and maybe LE can start looking for them. :)
//The church in the last decade or so decided that children should not be immunized and the children as a result contracted a major disease prior to being in CPS custody//
The FLDS say otherwise - they don't claim that they have rules against immunization, that it's left up to the families. Some parents claimed they immunized their children. And BTW - most of the children were perfectly healthy prior to being confined in close living spaces.
//When does indoctrinating people to be obedient become abuse? How much indoctrination have the children received? //
When did it become the duty of government to judge what's "indoctrination"?
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If this were your personal case of being accused of a crime - would you accept that "formal discovery is IMPOSSIBLE????"
NO WAY. The bottom line was said in the previous paragraph - this is beginning to cost Texas and Shyster county a bundle and they want it over with and due process of the law be damned.
CORRUPT - CORRUPT - CORRUPT.
And obviously a judge and CPS system that believes it's above the law and does not have to follow the laws and guidelines already in place.
We know that the Constitution of the United States was discarded a long time ago in Texas.