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FLDS grand jury indicts three people on felonies
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nosugrof | 10:18 a.m. Aug. 21, 2008
These people need to investigate CPS.Indict Angie Voss. She abused over 400
children.
Gal50 | 10:55 a.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Sounds like a big day for the grand jury and it seems there will be more
indictments by the end of the day.
It is hard to read into this, but I was thinking that the strongest cases will be presented first. So, today could either be a continuation of strong cases or it could be the weaker cases. It seems that the number 10 has been floating around as the number of statutory rape or underage marriage cases, so today could be as heavy as the last grand jury day.
I would expect the next grand jury proceeding to be focused on local cases and not so much on the FLDS.
The case of Warren Jeffs is confusing to me. There is evidence that he married more than one underage girl. So, is he going to be indicted over a period of time for each criminal charge or is he just going to be indicted for the case with the most evidence? I would have thought that all indictments against him would come down at the same time.
It is hard to read into this, but I was thinking that the strongest cases will be presented first. So, today could either be a continuation of strong cases or it could be the weaker cases. It seems that the number 10 has been floating around as the number of statutory rape or underage marriage cases, so today could be as heavy as the last grand jury day.
I would expect the next grand jury proceeding to be focused on local cases and not so much on the FLDS.
The case of Warren Jeffs is confusing to me. There is evidence that he married more than one underage girl. So, is he going to be indicted over a period of time for each criminal charge or is he just going to be indicted for the case with the most evidence? I would have thought that all indictments against him would come down at the same time.
realitycheck | 11:05 a.m. Aug. 21, 2008
obviously these women aren't going to testify. They don't want to go
to jail for child endangerment. Hopefully there is enough evidence that they
and their husbands can both be prosecuted. That would solve the "should
the children go to foster care" question since raising children from prison
is very difficult.... lol
There's no doubt abuse occurred. And if you think training your daughter to marry an old man isn't abuse, then you are extremely naive (and have a very warped sense of right and wrong...)
There's no doubt abuse occurred. And if you think training your daughter to marry an old man isn't abuse, then you are extremely naive (and have a very warped sense of right and wrong...)
Comments continue below
Gregory | 11:20 a.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Gal50 salivates at the thought that maybe a few of the kids will be suffering
again, pines for the good old days when 440 little ones cried themselves to
sleep at night.
common sense | 12:02 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Did anyone really think the women would testify? They didnt at the last Grand
Jury hearing. But this time, there is new evidence for the Grand Jury to hear
about different men and women. I would Love to see Barbara Jessop indicted, and
any other woman who encouraged and okay underage girls to testify.
common sense | 12:03 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
The Grand Jury has enough evidence through DNA they dont need the girls
testimony. Women should be indicted to!!!
Abby | 12:41 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
To Gal50:
You are correct that there is evidence that Warren married 4 underaged girls between 2004 and 2006. However, only one of those underaged girls had a child. This is what Jeffs is being charged for. There is no proof that the other marriages were consummated, hence no charges at this time.
You are correct that there is evidence that Warren married 4 underaged girls between 2004 and 2006. However, only one of those underaged girls had a child. This is what Jeffs is being charged for. There is no proof that the other marriages were consummated, hence no charges at this time.
Sexual Abuse | 1:18 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Sexual abuse is not restricted to consumating a marriage. There could be photos
and diary entries that could prove sexual abuse that did not involve
consumation.
Simply fondling a child can be grounds for a conviction for felonious sexual abuse.
Simply fondling a child can be grounds for a conviction for felonious sexual abuse.
Cats | 2:35 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I have a lot of anger toward some of these women and I would love to see some of
them indicted, too. However, we need to remember that the women are victims,
too. They have been programmed from the minute they were born.
The women have no power and if they oppose their husband they could be severly beaten and, even worse, their eternal salvation can be taken away. They are just told just to "keep sweet" and do whatever they are told. this is a sick system that has become more and more perverse over the years.
The role Elissa Wall's mother played in the crimes that were committed against her is disgraceful. But, this poor women is also a victim. It's just a vicious evil thing that has been visited upon these people to the "third and fourth generation."
Something drastic needs to be done and it needs to include the women. But, we must remember, these women need help, too.
The women have no power and if they oppose their husband they could be severly beaten and, even worse, their eternal salvation can be taken away. They are just told just to "keep sweet" and do whatever they are told. this is a sick system that has become more and more perverse over the years.
The role Elissa Wall's mother played in the crimes that were committed against her is disgraceful. But, this poor women is also a victim. It's just a vicious evil thing that has been visited upon these people to the "third and fourth generation."
Something drastic needs to be done and it needs to include the women. But, we must remember, these women need help, too.
re Gregory 11:20am | 2:36 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
and it appears you are heartbroken, pining for the good old days when you could
hand off your daughter to a pedophile so he could stick his tongue down a 12 yr
olds throat.
Cosmo | 3:01 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Re:Cats;The real victim in the larger picture, is the Constitution. Almost all
the arguments, pro/con
appear in Reynolds vs The U.S.
The Supreme Court created a problem that has resurfaced over and over, throughout the years. And
it will continue to do so.
Should old farts be doing little girls? don't make me hurl. But we have two issues here that need to be
intelligently addressed.
The one is at the end of a rope. The other will require a reversal by the Supreme Court. It won't do
any good venting emotional baggage. It is a time for cool heads, logic, and some good old Constitutional application.
appear in Reynolds vs The U.S.
The Supreme Court created a problem that has resurfaced over and over, throughout the years. And
it will continue to do so.
Should old farts be doing little girls? don't make me hurl. But we have two issues here that need to be
intelligently addressed.
The one is at the end of a rope. The other will require a reversal by the Supreme Court. It won't do
any good venting emotional baggage. It is a time for cool heads, logic, and some good old Constitutional application.
common sense | 3:02 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I beleive they have enough evidence without any girls saying a word. Utah and
Arizona didnt have this kind of evidence when they were trying to convicted men
on underage marriage. They needed the word of the women, and the women refused.
Surely these people and Willie Jessop and Rod Parker arent stupid enough to
believe they will get away with this again? I hope not! Because they wont.
FLDS or Not? | 3:32 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
It seems quite clear from some of the postings on this and previous articles
that a lot of FLDS men and women are posting comments. It's easy to spot
-they defend their actions and their religious rights, and attack everyone
else.
I am not FLDS, and never would be, and disagree completely with their position. I do not believe all FLDS men marry underage girls, but cannot even begin to fathom men 30 to 40 years older than their 'brides' not being seen as abusers. That the women are indoctrinated to believe this is natural, normal or even a privilege is obvious. I have no idea what can change their mindset when they have lived through it themselves and witnessed it all of their lives.
I also believe that some of the actions of the authorities in Texas were not well thought out, and actually inflicted damage on the innocents, the children, and some of their mothers who seemed to be loving and caring toward their children. Separating mothers from nursing children was cruel and inhumane, for example. Taking the men out of the compound and letting the mothers/children live there under supervision I think would have been better.
I am not FLDS, and never would be, and disagree completely with their position. I do not believe all FLDS men marry underage girls, but cannot even begin to fathom men 30 to 40 years older than their 'brides' not being seen as abusers. That the women are indoctrinated to believe this is natural, normal or even a privilege is obvious. I have no idea what can change their mindset when they have lived through it themselves and witnessed it all of their lives.
I also believe that some of the actions of the authorities in Texas were not well thought out, and actually inflicted damage on the innocents, the children, and some of their mothers who seemed to be loving and caring toward their children. Separating mothers from nursing children was cruel and inhumane, for example. Taking the men out of the compound and letting the mothers/children live there under supervision I think would have been better.
Joey | 3:35 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I'm glad Texans are devoting all their resources to investigating a handful
of *possible* 'underage' sexual assaults among a cluster of Utah
imports. Meanwhile the Texan barrios and inner cities rot with decay, filth, and
criminality, which Texans choose to ignore.
When this is all over, assuming the evidence that was stolen and/or planted without a warrant even counts, Texas will have what, 2 or 3 convictions, costing 150 million or so? And that total doesn't count any Federal civil rights law suits judgments awarded to the innocent individuals and families from YFZ, that Texas wrongfully imprisoned, kidnapped, and abused.
Here's a tip for Texas: use a little logic in your thinking: Don't break the law to enforce the law. Weigh the pros and cons of your actions. Use Common Sense.
When this is all over, assuming the evidence that was stolen and/or planted without a warrant even counts, Texas will have what, 2 or 3 convictions, costing 150 million or so? And that total doesn't count any Federal civil rights law suits judgments awarded to the innocent individuals and families from YFZ, that Texas wrongfully imprisoned, kidnapped, and abused.
Here's a tip for Texas: use a little logic in your thinking: Don't break the law to enforce the law. Weigh the pros and cons of your actions. Use Common Sense.
x | 3:39 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
This whole situation sounds like a complete mess. I am wondering if the higher
up courts think that sending men to jail and sending young girls to foster care
will fix the over all problem. My question is why were all these children sent
back with their parents before the whole investigation was done. The CPS says
there was abuse and a judge says there was no abuse. Two months later 5 men were
charged with sexual assults and the CPS wants to remove all teenage girls from
their homes. Something isn't right, but one thing is for sure, that tax
payers money is being spent foolish. Maybe the CPS should be pointing the finger
at the person who performed the under aged marriages. I am not saying those
other men are in the right either. I never read any articles about what the men
had to say about not marrying under aged girls. And the courts want women to
promise that their teen girls will not marry before 17. If the girls mother
refuses, then she may be thrown out of her home with out her children. If this
happened would CPS step in take the children? who knows??
re Cosmo 3:01pm | 3:40 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I really don't think the founding fathers anticipated parents that are this
callous. Back then, parents would do anything to keep their children safe. And
today's parents (the good ones anyway) would die for their children.
so perhaps the constitution doesn't cover pimping out a 12 yr old girl with the parents blessing.
but that doesn't make it any less sick.
so perhaps the constitution doesn't cover pimping out a 12 yr old girl with the parents blessing.
but that doesn't make it any less sick.
Call the fashion police too | 3:50 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Someone needs to do something about those FLDS hairdoos. Isn't the Texas
Fashion Police under the jusridiction of the Grand Jury? The FLDS women could
use a good Texas beauty queen training session from one of the lovely locals.
getreal | 3:59 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Wonder what Willie had to say under oath and how much it differs from what he
spews to the media. Bet there are LOTS of differences.
re - getreal | 4:19 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
actually, the FLDS believe it is ok to lie if you do it in whatever they
consider to be the best interest of the church. So I have no doubt he said
whatever he needed to in order to protect everyone - or he pled the 5th.
I really don't think telling the truth was one of his options, and he probably didn't even considered it.
I really don't think telling the truth was one of his options, and he probably didn't even considered it.
Anonymous | 4:20 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Texas = Courage to do the right thing!
Laurie... | 4:54 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Sad that the young and innocent FLDS girls have to do through this, but the
older women, like Barbara Jessop, should be indicted for turning their daughters
over to old pervs like Warren Jeffs and his evil cohorts.
Go Texas Go!
BANKING ON HEAVEN
Go Texas Go!
BANKING ON HEAVEN
WOW | 5:16 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Yes I saw the banking on heaven trailer on youtube then bought the video.
What a Documentary!
The part about the defected children being put away was so emotional.
No actor could fake that.
What a Documentary!
The part about the defected children being put away was so emotional.
No actor could fake that.
nosugrof | 5:17 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
The real child abuse is not even being investigated. CPS abused over 400
children and they are getting away with it.
Cats | 5:40 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Again, the FLDS are blogging. Total obfuscation. I love the way they keep
bringing in all kinds of side issues to try to distract attention away from the
real issue--that children are being raped, abused and exploited.
They really think their blogs are clever--they're finding all kinds of loopholes and dazzling everyone with their fabulous, brilliant logic. They think if they keep attacking it will somehow invalidate the truth--that somehow truth will fail and lies will become truth. No matter how much they scream, what they are doing is wrong and, worlds without end, it will never be right.
The mothers involved should be indicted, but we have to remember that they are victims, too. They have no rights and no power. They are just required to "keep sweet" and do whatever they are told. If they don't, they risk abuse and even loss of their eternal salvation. That's a pretty heavy threat. Elissa Wall's mother is a perfect example of a mother whose behavior was a complete disgrace.
Former FLDS now understand how they were brainwashed. They didn't until they escaped. It's going to take drastic action to help those still imprisoned in this tragic situation.
They really think their blogs are clever--they're finding all kinds of loopholes and dazzling everyone with their fabulous, brilliant logic. They think if they keep attacking it will somehow invalidate the truth--that somehow truth will fail and lies will become truth. No matter how much they scream, what they are doing is wrong and, worlds without end, it will never be right.
The mothers involved should be indicted, but we have to remember that they are victims, too. They have no rights and no power. They are just required to "keep sweet" and do whatever they are told. If they don't, they risk abuse and even loss of their eternal salvation. That's a pretty heavy threat. Elissa Wall's mother is a perfect example of a mother whose behavior was a complete disgrace.
Former FLDS now understand how they were brainwashed. They didn't until they escaped. It's going to take drastic action to help those still imprisoned in this tragic situation.
realitycheck | 5:44 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
looks like 3 more indictments came out just now. The FLDS parents must be
freaking out by now. Bet they wish they hadn't gone down this path with
Warren and Merril......
it's amazing what and who people will follow if convinced at a young age....
it's amazing what and who people will follow if convinced at a young age....
Cats | 5:45 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Three more indictments! GO TEXAS!!!
freethinker | 5:43 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Isn't it interesting how you people rush to judgment before the facts are
known. I am humored by all you "know-it-alls" who have the same
mindset as the CPS who believed that crimes were being committed and staged a
horrendous raid and had to be undone by wiser people. You can all kinds of
things but please think before you speak. The level of your stupidity is unknown
until you open your mouth.
freethinker | 5:47 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
As to why do the FLDS dress as they do... One of their tenets is modesty and to
not make yourself too comely to anyone but your spouse. If you think you can
change the way they dress and change the way they crave privacy, you are
tricked. If you have never seen determined people just watch and wonder. This
thing in Texas is just beginning.
freethinker | 5:51 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Sorry, I meant the Deseret News.
Casandra | 5:59 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
DON'T FEEL SORRY FOR THE "DEVIL" BECAUSE NOBODY LIKES HIM. THAT
IS HIS OWN FAULT! SAME GOES FOR THE WICKED FLDS MEN.
Anonymous | 6:01 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Let this be a lesson to one and all.
Patriarchal system or not - you cannot have sex with children!
Patriarchal system or not - you cannot have sex with children!
You FLDSers | 6:07 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
You can wait for justice in heaven, but I'll take Texas justice anyday!
Cats | 6:10 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
To Freethinker: I believe you may be totally sincere in what you are saying,
but clearly, you don't have much knowledge about the situation that has
existed for many years within the FLDS community.
You are right, we all need to wait and see how this legal situation unfolds. What will happen to each of these indicted individuals remains to be seen. But, there are many victims and there will continue to be until some decisive action is taken to protect them.
You are right, we all need to wait and see how this legal situation unfolds. What will happen to each of these indicted individuals remains to be seen. But, there are many victims and there will continue to be until some decisive action is taken to protect them.
Anonymous | 6:16 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Only in crazy cults is it okay to have sex with children.
Wellwisher | 6:34 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
To freethinker,
Unless you know the FLDS yourself? DO NOT judge the rest of us! Some of us know these deviates. Anyone who has sympathy for the devil deserves the same treatment.
Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.
Unless you know the FLDS yourself? DO NOT judge the rest of us! Some of us know these deviates. Anyone who has sympathy for the devil deserves the same treatment.
Sexual abuse is sexual abuse.
freethinker | 6:37 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
freethinker | 6:43 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
This witch hunt to see which of the FLDS men will go to jail is just typical of
the appetite we have developed to find iniquity in others. Let each man /women
look to their own nest first. How do you know what God requires of each of us to
qualify to return to his presence and dwell there forever? Who knows God's
will? The Pope? The Dalai Lama? Answer me this if you profess to know.
Interloper | 6:50 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
There has NEVER been a ruling by any Texas court that no child abuse occurred at
YFZ Ranch. The Texas Supreme Court agreed with the appeals court that there was
not sufficient evidence that ALL the children removed were vulnerable to child
abuse. It has been acknowledged all along that prepubescent and adolescent
girls are targets for sexual abuse.
Now, the local officials are proceeding slowly and cautiously, but they are identifying specific abusers and their victims. The process would have progressed more but for most of the FLDS men having avoided DNA testing. But, as happened with Keate, more of them will be forced to comply, resulting in additional indictments.
BTW, did anyone else notice how much alike the YFZ Ranch 'wives' in those photos look? These people are really tempting fate with all that inbreeding.
Now, the local officials are proceeding slowly and cautiously, but they are identifying specific abusers and their victims. The process would have progressed more but for most of the FLDS men having avoided DNA testing. But, as happened with Keate, more of them will be forced to comply, resulting in additional indictments.
BTW, did anyone else notice how much alike the YFZ Ranch 'wives' in those photos look? These people are really tempting fate with all that inbreeding.
freethinker | 6:53 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Go ahead kick'm while they're down if it makes you feel better!
You say what? | 6:56 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
WELL! freethinker...Looks like we are casting some stones on here in the name of
womanhood! There is no reason to think these men don't deserve this. A few
pebbles never hurt anyone who rapes children. But children live with the scars.
A H | 7:17 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Freethinker- please stop! with all the Jesus stuff! How do you know Jesus said
that? It could have been a liar who said Jesus said this and that. ANYWAY, all
the Flds malarkey is a bit different, and the Flds have brought all this trash
down apon themselves for their abusive lifestyle. The Flds men are warped and
twisted and have set themselves up for the law to finely come down hard on them.
How else do we deal with sex cults, liars and sex abusers??
Interstate 15 Hitchhiker | 7:21 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I hitchhiked over 300 miles (with no money and very little water) on Tuesday to
escape an abusive situation with my brother while on a camping trip, and
interestingly enough I found myself near Colorado City. It took 5 good
Samaritans to get me back to Provo, and the last guy to pick me up had been
excommunicated by the FLDS Church because an FLDS leader had a revelation that
this man's only wife now belonged to another, so he was simply discarded. I
got to talk with him for a couple of hours.
In short, the FLDS faith is largely misunderstood. The FLDS are full of good people and serve their neighbors better than most in the world today. They are doing the very best they can with what they have been given. I felt of this man's heartache as he opened up and told me about his trip to Texas and dealings with CPS there.
I thought about how many hundreds of Mormon's (which I am one), Christians, Catholics & others passed by on the freeway as I needed aid on the roadside. I will forever be grateful for the many wonderful teachings of the FLDS Church.
In short, the FLDS faith is largely misunderstood. The FLDS are full of good people and serve their neighbors better than most in the world today. They are doing the very best they can with what they have been given. I felt of this man's heartache as he opened up and told me about his trip to Texas and dealings with CPS there.
I thought about how many hundreds of Mormon's (which I am one), Christians, Catholics & others passed by on the freeway as I needed aid on the roadside. I will forever be grateful for the many wonderful teachings of the FLDS Church.
John Pack Lambert | 7:40 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I knew a lady on my mission who thought it was totally OK that her 12-year-old
daughter had had sex with a 21-year-old man.
She was a theoretical member of the largest religious body in the United States, but as far as I know did not attend church regularly.
Then there is the North American Man Boy Love Association.
Having sexual relations with children is not the universal monopoly of small and hated religious groups. It is quite common in our society, with 13 year old girls on average having older sexual partners than 15 year old girls.
Considering how many girls in the United States get pregnant while in high school I have to wonder if some of the commentators here are from another country. Also, do not throw me a sop of "consensual" malarchy. A very large number of pregnant high schoolers had sex with men who were legally too old. Beyond this, the fact that the laws on sexual relations with minors very between states means that your rhetoric condemns as the ultimate evil an act that in some cases only a few miles away is legal.
She was a theoretical member of the largest religious body in the United States, but as far as I know did not attend church regularly.
Then there is the North American Man Boy Love Association.
Having sexual relations with children is not the universal monopoly of small and hated religious groups. It is quite common in our society, with 13 year old girls on average having older sexual partners than 15 year old girls.
Considering how many girls in the United States get pregnant while in high school I have to wonder if some of the commentators here are from another country. Also, do not throw me a sop of "consensual" malarchy. A very large number of pregnant high schoolers had sex with men who were legally too old. Beyond this, the fact that the laws on sexual relations with minors very between states means that your rhetoric condemns as the ultimate evil an act that in some cases only a few miles away is legal.
John Pack Lambert | 7:46 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
To the 6:56 commentator,
There seems to be evidence that some of these "under-age" woman proactively wanted to marry these men, particularly in the case of Jeffs.
It is still an illegal act. However to use the term "rape" is to misconstrue the whole case.
There are gradients and nuances involved that many do not accept. This is not about physical force. If may be about people not having the ability to make fully informed choices, but their is no Elisa Wall in Texas saying that she was protesting the marriage all along.
Jeffs seems to have had inapropriate relations with a 12-year-old, but there is no evidence that she was any less willing than hundreds of other 12-year-olds across the nation that have sex.
There seems to be evidence that some of these "under-age" woman proactively wanted to marry these men, particularly in the case of Jeffs.
It is still an illegal act. However to use the term "rape" is to misconstrue the whole case.
There are gradients and nuances involved that many do not accept. This is not about physical force. If may be about people not having the ability to make fully informed choices, but their is no Elisa Wall in Texas saying that she was protesting the marriage all along.
Jeffs seems to have had inapropriate relations with a 12-year-old, but there is no evidence that she was any less willing than hundreds of other 12-year-olds across the nation that have sex.
Anonymous | 8:03 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
Don't make me cry a river...boo-hoo! Nonetheless the swine need to be
sorted out from the cows. This is no time for sob stories. Think of the young
girls forced into bed with some old farts.
Ronald A. Young | 8:22 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
It is good to see that progress is being made in this Matter.
Vinnee | 8:35 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
John Pack Lambert, You are nuts!
re: John P. Lambert | 8:42 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
What hundreds of 12 year old girls are you talking about? Meaning this is coming
from the cat's(YOUR MOUTH)and no less that of a dirty minded man? I was
once twelve years old and boys were the last thing on my mind until about age 17
teen. You are really weird!
sisterfrommich | 8:54 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
NO 12 year old has the right to make that decision. The man in this case are the
ones who need the control. Be it Jeffs, or whoever, FLDS, or none believer, in
this country, children can't make that decision. Anyone ( male or female)
who chooses to have sex with a minor is guilty of rape, no matter HOW willing
the child is.
Re: freethinker | 9:00 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
You are an enabler of child rapists. Come down from your ivory tower.
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