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Foster care for Jeffs' apparent child bride
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Exactly | 9:57 a.m. Aug. 21, 2008
It was a lifestyle in some civilizations (still is in some), but it was never
"commanded" by "God". Whenever it was practiced, heartache
was right behind it. Some good people (and evil) people have practiced
polygamy, but polygamy itself, is not good!
realitycheck | 4:36 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
I have absolutely no idea what tigerlily's agenda is. She keeps saying all
about the FLDS has rights, but seems to only be talking about the parents....
I guess in her mind children are property and have no rights...
I guess in her mind children are property and have no rights...
Comments continue below
John Pack Lambert | 5:55 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
To 4:39 on August 20th,
I am not sure where you learned all this about the young Ms. Jessop welcoming and anticipating a marriage to Jeffs. However, from a legal standpoint that is irrelevant. A 12-year-old does not have the legal right to consent to have sex. Sex between 12-year-olds and anyone over the age of 18 is assumed to be non-consensual by its very nature.
Some may argue that our legal assumptions are out of line with societal assumptions, but that is what the law says, so anyone who breaks it can be prosecuted.
I am not sure where you learned all this about the young Ms. Jessop welcoming and anticipating a marriage to Jeffs. However, from a legal standpoint that is irrelevant. A 12-year-old does not have the legal right to consent to have sex. Sex between 12-year-olds and anyone over the age of 18 is assumed to be non-consensual by its very nature.
Some may argue that our legal assumptions are out of line with societal assumptions, but that is what the law says, so anyone who breaks it can be prosecuted.
John Pack Lambert | 6:19 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
To Buster,
Your analogy is flawed. People do not go around talking about "The Christian Church" refering to a specific religious body. However they do with "The Mormon Church" and "The Catholic Church". The proper analogy is are the Sedeca Vacantes, those who theorize that the seat of the pope has been empty since the death of I believe Paul VI but maybe even Pius XII Catholic?
In most people's use of the term "Catholic" refers to a member of The Holy Apostalic Roman Catholic Church. In the same way, throughout the media the term "The Mormon Church" is used overwhelmingly to coincide with "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". To then turn around and start calling the FLDS "Mormons" is confusing and misleading.
There are many other doctrinal disagreements between the FLDS and the LDS besides polygamy. Among these are ordaining men of African descent to the priesthood, tracing your actual ancestry as opposed to creating fictive ones that are percieved to contain more faithful ancestors, doing missionary work and the methods to be used for such and many more issues.
Your analogy is flawed. People do not go around talking about "The Christian Church" refering to a specific religious body. However they do with "The Mormon Church" and "The Catholic Church". The proper analogy is are the Sedeca Vacantes, those who theorize that the seat of the pope has been empty since the death of I believe Paul VI but maybe even Pius XII Catholic?
In most people's use of the term "Catholic" refers to a member of The Holy Apostalic Roman Catholic Church. In the same way, throughout the media the term "The Mormon Church" is used overwhelmingly to coincide with "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". To then turn around and start calling the FLDS "Mormons" is confusing and misleading.
There are many other doctrinal disagreements between the FLDS and the LDS besides polygamy. Among these are ordaining men of African descent to the priesthood, tracing your actual ancestry as opposed to creating fictive ones that are percieved to contain more faithful ancestors, doing missionary work and the methods to be used for such and many more issues.
John Pack Lambert | 6:26 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
In response to the Brigham Young quote,
brigham Young did not say a man had to actually marry more than one wife. George Q. Cannon said specifically that if a man was willing to enter into polygamy but unable than he would not be punished for doing so.
What Brigham Young was speaking of is church members who do not head the counsel of the brethren but instead value their own judgements more than the revealed word of God.
We have to accept not being able to get full peace on this subject. The Holy Ghost will not testify to us of the truthfulness of this principal.
The fact of the matter is that both Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith were Prophets of God and the policy of ending polygamy was revealed in increments to these prophets.
The key to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is continuing revelation and following the living prophet, not the number of wives a man has.
From almost the start of Heber J. Grant's administration any man who tries to take a second wife is considered to be guilty of adultery and dealt with accordingly.
brigham Young did not say a man had to actually marry more than one wife. George Q. Cannon said specifically that if a man was willing to enter into polygamy but unable than he would not be punished for doing so.
What Brigham Young was speaking of is church members who do not head the counsel of the brethren but instead value their own judgements more than the revealed word of God.
We have to accept not being able to get full peace on this subject. The Holy Ghost will not testify to us of the truthfulness of this principal.
The fact of the matter is that both Wilford Woodruff and Joseph F. Smith were Prophets of God and the policy of ending polygamy was revealed in increments to these prophets.
The key to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is continuing revelation and following the living prophet, not the number of wives a man has.
From almost the start of Heber J. Grant's administration any man who tries to take a second wife is considered to be guilty of adultery and dealt with accordingly.
John Pack Lambert | 6:28 p.m. Aug. 21, 2008
What many people seem to ignore is that since the early days of Heber J.
Grant's presidency people involved in polygamy have been considered to be
guilty of adultery.
To Sharon | 4:13 p.m. Aug. 22, 2008
Because the women on the gymnastics team are competing in a sport, whereas the
14 & 16 year olds in the FLDS are have intimate relations with men in their
20's, 30's, & 40's. The gymnasts are considered a team with
ladies ranging in age from 16 (which is the rule for Olympic competition) to 30.
The FLDS girls are being married off. It come down to what's right &
wrong.
observer | 5:28 p.m. Aug. 22, 2008
RE: John Pack Lambert
"...A 12-year-old does not have the legal right to consent to have sex. Sex between 12-year-olds and anyone over the age of 18 is assumed to be non-consensual by its very nature."
I want to know why a girl can "consent" to pre-marital sex with someone close to her age, but not with someone older. If she is not old enough to have sex, she is not old enough to have sex. Period. But since "society" accepts this behavior between unmarried young people, it is ok.
Are the FLDS brainwashed or are we? Are we holding them up to our own warped and twisted moral standards?
RE: To Sharon:"It comes down to what's right and wrong"!? Are you the one that decides that? Shouldn't you have an in depth knowledge of the facts about these people before you decide they are wrong? Who can judge them by the "facts" we read in the media or narratives of bitter ex-members? Is it so wrong for this girl to be married to an older man if she wants to be and there is no evidence of sexual activity?
Sorry I fail to see where that is so wrong.
"...A 12-year-old does not have the legal right to consent to have sex. Sex between 12-year-olds and anyone over the age of 18 is assumed to be non-consensual by its very nature."
I want to know why a girl can "consent" to pre-marital sex with someone close to her age, but not with someone older. If she is not old enough to have sex, she is not old enough to have sex. Period. But since "society" accepts this behavior between unmarried young people, it is ok.
Are the FLDS brainwashed or are we? Are we holding them up to our own warped and twisted moral standards?
RE: To Sharon:"It comes down to what's right and wrong"!? Are you the one that decides that? Shouldn't you have an in depth knowledge of the facts about these people before you decide they are wrong? Who can judge them by the "facts" we read in the media or narratives of bitter ex-members? Is it so wrong for this girl to be married to an older man if she wants to be and there is no evidence of sexual activity?
Sorry I fail to see where that is so wrong.
craig | 6:46 p.m. Aug. 22, 2008
The polygamists of today have turned the principle into an abomination. Take a
look into the past read what was taught then.
Brigham Young stressed; ". . . no man has a right to a wife, or wives, unless he honors his Priesthood and magnifies his calling before God None but the more pure, virtuous, honorable and upright" were to engage in the practice.�
Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom, p.480
My advice to the sisters is, Never be sealed to any man unless you wish to be. I say to you High Priests and Elders, Never from this time ask a woman to be sealed to you, unless she wants to be; but let the widows and children alone.
Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 6:, p.308
That is a lot different then the forced marriages and child brides of today�s polygamy.
Brigham Young stressed; ". . . no man has a right to a wife, or wives, unless he honors his Priesthood and magnifies his calling before God None but the more pure, virtuous, honorable and upright" were to engage in the practice.�
Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom, p.480
My advice to the sisters is, Never be sealed to any man unless you wish to be. I say to you High Priests and Elders, Never from this time ask a woman to be sealed to you, unless she wants to be; but let the widows and children alone.
Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 6:, p.308
That is a lot different then the forced marriages and child brides of today�s polygamy.
observer | 5:28 p.m. Aug. 22, 20 | 7:05 p.m. Aug. 22, 2008
You fail to see what's wrong with someone in their 20's or older
having sex with a 12-16 year old????? You gotta be kidding. I really don't
think someone under 18 should be having sex but it's going to happen. A
14-15 year old doesn't have the maturity to realize the impact of their
actions.
It's easy for someone much older to convince a young girl to do things that she shouldn't do. And in a religious setting it makes it easier for these perverts!!! I don't consider myself a prude and am not LDS either and yes I do believe that having a relationship with a young teen is perverted!!!! Based on what you're saying, the Catholic priest shouldn't have been convicted of molestation.
It's easy for someone much older to convince a young girl to do things that she shouldn't do. And in a religious setting it makes it easier for these perverts!!! I don't consider myself a prude and am not LDS either and yes I do believe that having a relationship with a young teen is perverted!!!! Based on what you're saying, the Catholic priest shouldn't have been convicted of molestation.
Claire | 9:00 a.m. Aug. 23, 2008
Polygamy was NEVER good. When you read the journals of those women in the early
days of the church, it was fraught with heartache and injustice. Parley Pratt
paraded his new young wife around when he went to other countries on his trips.
When there were new wives added to the group, they behaved like honeymooners in
front of the other wives. There was favoritism of wives among the men. It was
great heartache to be the older "used up" wife...this according to
their journals.
As an LDS woman, I am deeply distressed by polygamy. I am now a widow, take care of myself, and certainly do not need someone to care for me. If I could not have my own husband, I would have remained single.
Polygamy victimizes women and children.
As an LDS woman, I am deeply distressed by polygamy. I am now a widow, take care of myself, and certainly do not need someone to care for me. If I could not have my own husband, I would have remained single.
Polygamy victimizes women and children.
On polygamy | 10:58 a.m. Aug. 23, 2008
Actually statistics show that men in polygamist relationships live longer than
those in monogamist relationships and much longer than bachelors.
Anonymous | 12:56 p.m. Aug. 23, 2008
"Throughout their experiences the children showed a fierce loyalty towards
each other. One 16-year-old girl reported that when CPS was separating the
siblings, she was not willing to part from her sisters. A worker told her,
�You be obedient!� She replied,
�I don�t have to in a circumstance
like this.� The worker said, �Your
parents would want you to be obedient.� She insisted,
�My parents would want me to stay with my
sisters.�"
Some of you think that their "patriarchal" system and submission is EVIL? The State is doing the same to them! Did you see what the police told Marianne's family as she was pleading not to be retaken? "Do as your told." the trooper said (Video on YouTube) So authority is only evil if it comes from anyone who is not wearing a gov't badge...
Some of you think that their "patriarchal" system and submission is EVIL? The State is doing the same to them! Did you see what the police told Marianne's family as she was pleading not to be retaken? "Do as your told." the trooper said (Video on YouTube) So authority is only evil if it comes from anyone who is not wearing a gov't badge...
To "On Polygamy" | 8:04 p.m. Aug. 23, 2008
I'll bet the men live longer (as you said) They take advantage of many
women/young women and take their youth away (and add it to their own) How sick
and hurtful to women!
Re:claire | 10:11 p.m. Aug. 23, 2008
Polygamy is not perfect nor is monogamy.
Here is an excerpt of a letter written to Brigham Young from one of his wives who was still in Nauvoo waiting to be reunited with her husband
�I do truly have to walk by faith now, for I have nothing whereon to lean but my heavenly Father . . . and I am left like a poor pilgrim solitary and alone. I think often of what poor old David has said in one of his psalms, that "tho the fig tree blossom not nor the herd bleat in the stall yet I will trust in the God of my Salvation." . . . and if there is nothing left for me but to trust in Him I will endeavour to do that and believe that behind a frowning providence he hides a smileing face. But my dear Brigham you may think all this is quite easy to a soul that truly loves God but let me tell you that for me it has been the hardest strugel that I have ever met with.�
It ends with her wishing to be "affectionately" remembered to three of her sister wives,
Here is an excerpt of a letter written to Brigham Young from one of his wives who was still in Nauvoo waiting to be reunited with her husband
�I do truly have to walk by faith now, for I have nothing whereon to lean but my heavenly Father . . . and I am left like a poor pilgrim solitary and alone. I think often of what poor old David has said in one of his psalms, that "tho the fig tree blossom not nor the herd bleat in the stall yet I will trust in the God of my Salvation." . . . and if there is nothing left for me but to trust in Him I will endeavour to do that and believe that behind a frowning providence he hides a smileing face. But my dear Brigham you may think all this is quite easy to a soul that truly loves God but let me tell you that for me it has been the hardest strugel that I have ever met with.�
It ends with her wishing to be "affectionately" remembered to three of her sister wives,
What a sad sad thing | 5:43 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
And how unneccesary. What a cruel, sick principle to tell women that their
husband must be shared because "God" said so.
How sick this type of brainwashing is and how happy I am that many are seeing this now!
How sick this type of brainwashing is and how happy I am that many are seeing this now!
Idiot thinking | 8:11 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Re 5:43
The FLDS make up stuff about god, so that they can convince the women in their colony that they were put on earth to be bread like farm animals, in a mans world of lust, desires and at a mans will.
The FLDS make up stuff about god, so that they can convince the women in their colony that they were put on earth to be bread like farm animals, in a mans world of lust, desires and at a mans will.
Jerkster | 8:32 p.m. Aug. 24, 2008
Warren Jeffs is now in permanent foster care himself--whooo hooo! Perhaps some
of the FLDS breeders will be farmed out to other bad bull, herds within their
corralled compound. What a sick crime.
Re: tigerlilly | 7:55 a.m. Sept. 23, 2008
"anonymous:: the flds are not mormon and haven't been mormon in over
100 years."
Dream on...
Dream on...
Anonymous | 1:53 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The only reason Mormons split from the FLDS is because Utah could only gain
statehood if they denounced polygamy. The Mormon "Bible" still
endorses it.
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