Deseret News | Reader comments: Utah case raises the question: vigilantism or protecting kids?

Reader comments
Utah case raises the question: vigilantism or protecting kids?

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Hate Crime | 1:36 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

When is a crime considered a hate crime? Is it when a minority is beaten by some one other than a minority? Is it when a gay person is beaten by a strait person? What if a strait person were beaten by a Gay person. Would that be considered a hate crime as well? Is it a hate crime if a black person beats a white person while called him whitey or cracker? I argue that a crime is a crime and that hate crime legislation has done harm to our legal system. Does anybody care to answer these questions intelligently?

Don't get it | 1:58 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

After watching the news coverage of this case, it is more than quite clear something is very rotten about all of this.

Why on earth did the Salt Lake County Attorney's office choose not to file charges against those who assulted Mr. Bell and Mr. Fair? ESPECIALLY MR. FAIR assialants? That's just the first rotten apple here!

Next, what was the reason Mr. Bell felt the need to take the children out of their home in the first place? Did he suspect abuse or was it something else? Was their drugs at this July 3rd party?

I feel Mr. Bell's case should be moved out of Salt Lake County's jurisdiction. As far as I'm concerned County Attorney Lorha Miller and her fellow clowns are clearly too inept to handle this case.

Incompotent | 2:12 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Whether someone wants to raise the issue of hate crimes or vigilante justice, there are still clealry a lot of question marks invloved with this case. The biggest question mark of all is, why were no charges filed the beating of Mr. Bell and Mr. Fair?

I thought Lorha Miller's office was incompotent, before, but this takes the cake! Will it no be okay to beat up your neighbor if they don't return your lawn mower right away?

Comments continue below

jolene | 2:57 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

So let me get this straight. (no pun intented) If you are gay then you can take someone's children and you don't have to return them to their home. And if the parents get upset well then the parents are charged with a hate crime.... What is our world coming to. This guy and his partner got what they deserved!

Todd | 3:02 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Okay, so what about the children? You can put this guy's picture in your paper showing his wounds but how about the damage that was done to the children???? You seem to be ignoring that.

Jason | 4:37 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

The problem here is that particulary gay people are victims of this type of crime. Hate Crimes are different than other crimes. The problem and the need for hate crime legislation is the fact when the victim is a gay person it is hardly ever prosecuted. The perpetrators are rarely brought to justice. This happens every day in this country. Gay people continue to be treated as second class citizens everyday of their lives. And this is just one example. Hate is not always a motive for assault, murder, etc. Hate crimes are deliberate crimes committed against another person because of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Hate Crimes legislation includes all of these categories not just sexual orientation. The conservative side of the political spectrum likes to tell everyone different and say that their are sufficient laws against these type of crimes already. Well, there isn't. That is a lie!

How 'bout this? | 5:43 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

There is an investigation going on.

Can we refrain from jumping to our favorite conclusions and posting our opinions here, until the facts are discovered by those responsible to do that?

wary utahn | 6:04 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Many Uthans love and support vigilante violence no matter the circumstances. Usually there is lots of support for the beater/ shooter no matter what might have actually happened...often the tenor of the support seems to be applauding the vigilantes for delivering to outsiders "what they had coming". While it doesn't happen every day, its something for out of state companies and people to take into account before relocating here- it's still the wild west, and you must be prepared to defend yourself against rabid "do gooders" as well as "evil doers" in Utah. If you are attacked, people will come out of the woodwork to say what "good people" the perps are no matter what they do to you if the perps are long time locals.

A Tough Lesson Learned | 6:05 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

"Although court documents say Bell admitted in his post-Miranda statement that he "brought the children ... to his residence," If a neighbor took my children to their bedroom during the middle of the night, I am not sure that my reaction would be much different. Homo-sexual or not I am sure I would fly into a blind rage. Also, doesn't the fact that they had been invited to the party and spent over 4 hrs at the victims home somewhat negate that the attackers were anti-homosexual?

Fact of the matter is that parents should be given a lot of leeway when it comes to protecting their children. Unfortunately societal norms has shifted more towards protecting the criminal rather than our children. When it's all said and done, I hope the message is this: parents don't fear the law when it comes to protecting your children from any form of abuse. If we have a few cases that cross the line from justified defense to vigilantism, as a whole our society will probably be better off.

Polys | 6:10 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Sounds like just another bunch of out of control Polys to me.

esad11 | 6:31 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

There is NO intelligent definition of a hate crime. So-called 'hate' crimes are a politically correct pandering to certain vocal communities. A crime is a crime, no matter WHO is perp.

charles | 7:40 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Hate crime my hinnie, if it were my children, double tap, end of story. Stop preferential treatment, prosecute the crime not the thought. No leinacy on child molesing perverts.

kenglish | 7:50 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

For the last time......
They were not in his BEDROOM. They were at the top of the (short, entryway) stairs.

(First rule of the blogosphere:
"If you have no facts, make some up!")

Mc | 7:51 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I don't believe this was a hate crime. These people knew and trusted this man enough to invite him to the party and allow their children to play in his yard and carport. Obviously, they are not "homophobic." The police should have been called as soon as the mother got home and they should have been allowed to handle the situation. The children were safe. These people viviously beat two men without even knowing for sure what happened. They say they just wanted justice, but our society can't have everyone taking justice into their own hands. These people are a danger to others because who knows what provocation they may think warrants a beating the next time, without stopping to find out the details? I would feel nervous about living near such hot heads, if I were their neighbors. They should be charged.

Lesson learned | 8:02 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Say what you will about the beating those two guys took ... but I bet they won't ever do it again.

Random | 8:07 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I don't know that investigators will ever truly find out what happened. By the time this gets to court, if ever, all parties involved will have told themselves it happened one way so many times, they will believe it themselves, regardless of the truth.

Assault charges ... | 8:14 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

should be filed. No question about it. Not doing so would be an absolutely disgraceful failure by prosecutors.

Party | 8:14 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Let's see, a party, for four hours, after midnight, lots of other people at both houses. Do you think anyone was drunk or high? When I was a cop these messes always involved alcohol or drugs. What type of a safe environment is that for children?

Cosmo | 8:16 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Anyone remember the pedophile in Florida a few years
ago, that took a little girl from her home, raped,
and buried her alive. And he was just down the street, from where she had lived. What if this story
had gone along those lines. Do any of you think that
these parents might have had thoughts like those in their minds.
Have any of you so civilized people seen how a mother, in the animal world will fight anything for
her young,even to her own destruction?
By the Laws of God, or the Laws of Natural Selection
thes parents were defending their young. They will be the ones that will survive, not the ones that cannot defend it's own.

Good reminder | 8:19 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

one should never interact one on one with someone elses kids. What bell should have done is called the police as soon as he saw children wandering around his house in the middle of the night. This was clearly a case for CPS, Bell has animals or nieghbors and these poor kids are probably better off in foster care. Also this is why we have the right to bear arms, first person that comes breaking into another persons home has earned the right to be shot and killed.

Idaokie | 8:20 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

It's okay to tell the story, but DN, do we really need to SEE the awful pictures?

zxcvbnm | 8:21 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

How much did these people drink at the party?

who | 8:25 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Hate crime or not, I would think that throwing a TV on top of someone's head NOT in an act of self defense would be considered attempted murder and would be prosecuted as such. What kind of idiots work in the prosecutor's office? There is an old phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" that should be contemplated here. Throw this violent family in prison where they belong. We have enough violence in the world already.

dmac | 8:28 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

My biggest issues with this case is that five men forced their way into a house with the intention of beating up someone and no charges were filed. I feel sorry for Mr. Fair who had nothing to do with this case and took the worst of the attack. Is there no justice for him? Further more is it not illegal to break into someone else's home for any reason? I understand the need and desire to protect your children, but protection needs to come before you loose them, not after. Protection afterwards is called revenge. And is why the childrens family enter Mr. Bell and Mr. Fair's home a second time. I say there should be assaut charges filed against those involved in the beating.

re: Wary Utahn, Todd and others | 8:38 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

They could have had a Kangaroo Court like they do in TEXAS and back East.

This statement is misconstrewed to make you think that "it's okay to have a vigilante group"

"(Not filing felony charges) sends a message to the community that vigilante action without provocation will go unpunished,"

How about turning it around and saying "due to the fact that the judges USUALLY protect the criminal" "Watch-Out" CRIMINALS because we will get you! So, if you can't do the HEAL time then don't do the crime.

Hate Crime legislation | 8:41 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Jason:

Your beef with the law seems to be an enforcement issue, not a legislative issue. We have laws on the books that protect everyone equally, not just minority groups. If the police or prosecutors do not fully enforce those laws when the victim is a minority, that is not a problem with the law that needs to be remedied by passing hate crime laws, it is a problem with enforcement that needs to be addressed.

The prosecutor's office has a tough case here. If either of the two men beaten had shot and killed those who were trying to break into their home and beat them after the children had already left, I'm not sure what charges, if any, would have been filed.

uncannygunman | 9:07 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I don't really care if this is prosecuted as a hate crime or not, ordinary burglary and agg-assault/attempted murder would serve justice just as well as far as I'm concerned. But no charges at all? Your right to defend yourself or your kids ends when the threat is over!

Maybe the feds need to step in and investigate the parents AND the DA.

Joe | 9:10 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

There are two lessons to be learned from this article.

First: If kids are wondering around at night, do not ever take them into your home without notifying the parents and receiving their permission. If the kids were not being properly supervised, your could easily take them back to the home where they belonged, or call the police and let them handle the situation. Appointing oneself as child guardian is a bad idea (particularly depending upon the level of partying being engaged in by the parents).

Second: When the kids were in a non-relative's home without permission, especially given the hour and the apparent fact that the kids were crying, jumping to conclusion that this man may have been up to no good is not completely unreasonable. How much better both sides would have been served if they had called the police and let them handle the situation, rather than attempting to send a message or take matters into their own hands.

Hate crime or no, those responsible for the beating should have been charged with assault or battery, and the parents possibly with child neglect. Attempted kidnapping seems about right for Bell.

evensteven | 9:17 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

This case is very troubling. Given the viciousness of the beating Mr. Fair took, especially the attempts to slit his throat, it would seem that attempted murder charges should have been considered. How and why the children were in Bell's house is an issue, as is the fact that the party was still going in the early morning hours when mom decided to check on the kids. Was alcohol involved?

Several reports listed the number of assailants as high as 5, entering Bell's residence through multiple points so it was not just the parents. Bell was chased as he fled. Mr. Fair's guilt is by association only yet he took the worst of it. Does legally adequate provocation allow bystanders to be assaulted?

One wonders how far things would have escalated and what charges might have been filed if Bell and Fair had tried to defend themselves with a 12 gauge or a 9mm.

I have no sympathy for child molesters but this case is far from proven. The DAs actions and reasoning are less than clear. Punish Mr. Bell as the facts indicate. But punish the assailants as well.

Cats | 9:28 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I think the parents and relatives probably do go a little too far. They should have just called the police. That is the appropriate response.

However, what Bell did is VERY ODD. If what he says is true (that he found the children wandering outside) he should have just knocked on the parents' door, said "I found your kids outside" and handed the children over. I don't care if it was early in the morning. His behavior was very strange and inappropriate and I wouldn't trust his motives.

I don't blame the parents one bit for getting VERY UPSET. Also, it is entirely possible that what the parents say is true. Bell may have taken the children out of the home. If so, he deserves anything he gets.

These parents tried to be kind, good neighbors to these guys and, in return, they broke their trust by behaving completely inappropriately toward their children.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out in court.

Judy | 9:32 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Is anyone else wondering why these small children were wandering out of their own home later at night without parental supervision? Seems to me these parents failed in their duty to properly care and supervise their own children!

Political insider | 10:01 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Consider that Utah Republican State Central Committee member and Salt Lake County District Attorney Lohra Miller will face a tough re-election in two years.

Gays aren't going to vote for Miller, Polys will.

Also, Miller probably needs the cooperation of the party-goers to prosecute Mr. Bell, and filing charges against them would hinder their cooperation.

Bell and Fair didn't deserve the rough treatment they received, but Pink Pistols members know that certain segments of our society cannot rely upon the government for protection and need to provide for their own security.

I agree | 10:09 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

with Idaokie. My four year old son was standing next to me when I opened this story. I don't need to see that, and my 4 year old son really doesn't need to see that.

Phil Johnson | 10:11 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Shame on the parents for not keeping better track of the Children and Shame on the Court System for once again failing...Where are the facts? Sounds like they are prosecuting the wrong people. I feel sorry for both Dan Fair and Mr Bell..I also feel sorry for the Kids with such irresponsible parents. People cannot be nice any more and what parent would leave their young children out that early in the morning.. Sounds like someone had to protect the kids and I applaud Mr. Bell for taking them in and making sure they were alright..Said to think arrests were made before the proper invesigation...Shame

Got what he deserved | 10:31 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

The parents hung out with him for 4 hours at a party without beating him up, so how can they be biased against the kidnapper? If the kidnapper had left the children outside of his home, everything would be OK. I think it is commendable that the parents let the kidnapper live.

He's a kidnapper. Deal with it.

The kids | 11:15 a.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I think the real victims may be the kids. Yes, I wonder why they were out wandering around in the middle of the night. Yes, I'd like to know why they were in Bell's house and CRYING loud enough to be heard next door. If a child is crying, why wouldn't you escort the child back to it's mother where it could receive the comfort it's looking for. If you suspect an abusive situation with the kids, why wouldn't you call the police? Most troubling of all, if the parents are capable of that much violence, what kind of abuse is going on in their home?

Nature teaches us... | 12:16 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

...that you don't mess with Mama (or Papa) bear. If they think you mean their young harm, you'd better pray you walk away with your life.

Tried and true instincts are hard to resist for a reason.

Helga | 12:43 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

We don't know all the facts, but I think our Court system failed again. The Law should have ben caled. This was vigilante. Something dosn't sound right. I think the children where poorly supevised or they would not have been out of their Home in the middle of the night.

Notachance | 1:24 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

These idiots aren't sophisticated enough to be vigilantes...they completely took advantage of an opportunity to have bragging fodder for the next time Keystone light goes on sale for 3 bucks a case. And yes, they deserve to be facing charges. They were more interested in "beating" someone than protecting anyone...remember the "rescuing" was already done.

The Moral of the Story is Clear | 1:27 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

If you are GAY and you see some children in any kind of danger. DO NOT HELP THEM. No matter what your intentions are, the law will not help you.

Fair | 1:47 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Saying that it is "understandable" for the parents to be angry and try to kill the gay guys is like saying that its "understandable" for a pedophile to get horny and abuse a child.

No excuses. If people can't control their urges, they need to be locked up.

Fair and Honest | 3:09 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Whether or not they are Gay is not an issue, what is an issue and no question and that Idiot Miller should know, the parents had no right to beat up the two men, whether or not they molested the children, you cannot, I repeat cannot take the law into your own hands, I think it is fair the two men did not put up a fight to keep the children or hide them. The hate crime question comes in what the Polynesians said as they were putting the whopping on them. If any of them said derogatory remarks or were prejudiced in their actions for whatever reason, that is a hate crime.

TRUTH!!! | 4:41 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I would say that I'm not anti-gay but I'm about as NON-pro-gay as you can get. I defend things which are not in line with Gay activities or beliefs constantly.

BUT as a VERY paleo-conservative, VERY Christian(LDS), VERY 'Utahn' I think this is DISGUSTING that the Police have done NOTHING about the brutality.

The kids had been out of the house...the men CAME BACK and FORCED ENTRY and ASSAULTED THEM. THEY COMMITTED A GROSS CRIME!!

Now, the "kidnapping" which witnesses are saying wasn't an actual kidnapping... EVEN IF IT WAS... to go back WAS WRONG... was not vigilante... it was revenge, and blood soaked. LDS morals and other religions and LACK of religions AND ANTAGONIST beliefs practically support the idea that THE CHILDREN WERE SAFE... THEY SOUGHT REVENGE...not hard to figure out.

There is not enough evidence to support a kidnapping charge and enough witnesses to refute the idea and cause enough doubt not to charge them

THERE IS PLENTY about the Gay household being attacked and brutally life-threatened. I am NOT sue happy being LDS but I would sue the police dept. and I would demand the highest authority over this.

Bottom Line | 4:53 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Everyone involved in this incident deserves to be under suspicion and scrutiny. Sounds like a bunch of dysfunctional people fueled on chemicals and substances making a whole series of seriously dumb decisions. Book 'em all, sort out the facts as best as you can, and then prosecute the whole lot. Parents partying at three in the morning? I suppose the were drinking Kool-Aid and playing Monopoly. Children unnaccounted for? Heck, I heard that the kids stated that they went over to the neighbors house voluntarily. Don't blame 'em if they did. The only people we can safely assume to be criminals at this point are the morons who assaulted the two men. Of course, felony charges will not be filed. Welcome to Utah today. Retch.

Violence | 5:29 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

I am stunned at the level of violence. Throwing a tv at his head, cutting his neck with glass, bashing his skull into the concrete. Do we allow mobs to rage in 2008 Utah? This isn't one guy who found someone else sleeping with his wife, this was a mob meeting out vengence.

The Wild West | 5:41 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

Being gay does not make one a child molester! Gay people abhor child molesters just as the rest of the population.

If I were to put myself in Mr. Bell's shoes, I'd like to think I would have done the right thing and taken the kids home, but probably not. If my neighbor had invited me to a party and their children wandered into my home late at night, I probably wouldn't have called the police. After all, aren't they're my neighbors and friends, right? And if there was a rowdy party keeping the kids awake, who wouldn't take in your neighbors/friends' kids, even for just a few minutes ?

Sounds to me he was just being a good neighbor who didn't use the best judgment.

The children were not molested!

That family should be in jail for a long time.

Re Jolene | 6:06 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

They got what they deserved??!!

You, my dear, are a sick puppy.

What did Mr. Fair deserve? He had nothing to do with the incident, except being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The kids weren't molested. That is clear.

This family should be in prison, period. They were having a party late into the night with toddlers awake in the home, unsupervised. Drugs and alcohol were probably involved. The young kids were allowed to wander, unmonitored.

The kids should be taken into state custody ASAP. What kind of citizens are they going to turn out to be with these adults as role models?

Then a mob of 5 men broke into a home for no legitimate reason. The children were safe at home, unharmed. This was just an excuse for some drunk hoodlums to "crack some skulls".

Attempted murder, forcible breaking and entering, and child endangerment are some of the multiple charges these thugs should face.

Jolene, your comment is exactly the reason hate crime laws are necessary. People like you, who are willing to look the other way when a crime has been committed against a minority, are the real reason hate crime laws must exist.

Um, | 6:08 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

While I don't agree with what these parents did, or with what Bell and Fair did (there are still way too many unanswered questions here), don't you think that if you were a parent, and somebody else had your children in their home in the early hours of the morning without your permission, and those children were crying so loudly you could hear them from outside, you'd call those people names? I don't think calling somebody a name when you're upset for your children and you don't know what that person has done to them is a hate crime. Bell spent four hours partying with these people earlier that night, the kids used to hang out in his yard, and there were never any problems with his being gay before. The intent of the attack is what makes something a hate crime or not. Being upset because it appeared that somebody had kidnapped your children and done something inappropriate to them, is completely different from, say, what happened to Matthew Shepard or Brandon Teena. It's certainly not appropriate to beat somebody to within inches of their life, but that also doesn't make it a hate crime.

Unbelieveable! | 6:25 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

This is exactly why hate crime laws are needed. Comments like "they got what they deserved", "it's understandable because it's just instinct" show the lack of fairness and prejudice displayed by the public and the courts.

People are willing to just look the other way if an unpopular minority gets their brains beaten out, for no legitimate reason, and the courts turn a blind eye to their plight.

What the family did was not instinct, i was attempted murder. They acted on false stereotypes they've been taught. Instinct had nothing to do with this. And what, exactly, do these men do that "deserved" that response, Jolene?

This is a classic example of wrongly assuming a behavior based on misperceptions and ignorance.

Lock up this family and throw away the keys!

Betty | 7:31 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008

So there is a party going on into the wee hours of the night. I doubt that they were having punch and cookies. I don't mean to imply that having a party is a crime here but I wonder about the state of soberness that anyone was in. Protect your children by all means but consider the danger you put them in by having your little all night bender in the first place. Brains were probably not engaged here. It was apparently ok for the children to play in this man's carport, he was a guest at the party, but until you know how the children came to be in his home unharmed by the way; I think that they should be charged with some form of asault. They beat up an innocent bystander. They should have to pay for that.

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