Deseret News | Fire risk linked to global warming

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Fire risk linked to global warming

Thinkin' Man | 1:50 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008

Funny, you'd think somebody would look at thermometers to guage climate change. Instead, they blame all kinds of natural phenomena on the elusive "global warming" without any scientific support.

Look at the data! U.S. rural areas have not warmed by more than a fraction of a degree in over a century. How could that cause fires?

Perhaps the 10+ year western drought might have something to do with the fires!

How do we know? | 2:26 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008

This seems almost to easy of an answer. I really don't think it is that simple. So what I'm hearing is if we reduce greenhouse emissions, we will have less forest fires? It seems ending "global warming" is the end-all, cure-all solution.

Just the facts please...I was here this winter when it got colder than I can ever remember it getting in southern Utah. We also had more snow than ever before. I was also here this spring when, because of cooler temps, the snow didn't leave the Abajo range until July! I've never seen that in the 20+ years I've lived here.

I don't buy it. It just doesn't make sense to me. Call it global warming and everyone will believe you, right?

I want our natural world to be preserved and our way of life protected for our children like everyone else. But I also demand the truth. Is that too much to ask? Political propaganda making con artists like Gore insanely rich, and whose hypocritical actions speak volumes, disgust me.

I believe in recycling, biking to work, and being good stewards of the earth, but not in the name of global warming.

Anonymous | 3:14 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008

The sky is falling, the sky is falling, oh wait its just global warming.

Comments continue below

That's funny | 3:29 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008

I thought it was due to the proliferation of cheat grass.

Then again, the National Wildlife Federation isn't exactly what you would call an objective source.

DR Don | 4:04 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008

Climate change is a good thing. It's been changing since the last ice age. If it wasn't for climate change we'd still be under ice here.

Other planets in the Solar System are also experiencing warming. Perhaps the global warming guru's should be preaching to the Saturnians, Neptunians and Martians about altering their lifestyles.

Malthus | 9:15 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008

Perhaps the drought has something to do with the fires? Or, perhaps global warming has something to do with the drought? Cheat grass has complicated and worsened the fire situation, so it's another component in a complex world. Nothing in science is simple or one dimensional. And let's, really, extrapolate what will happen on Earth by looking at the gas giant planets of Saturn and Neptune.
I know some people who work in fire management with the BLM and USFS, and they uniformly tell me that the warming climate is affecting their fire seasons. They are scientists, and that's what the data is telling them. I have every reason to be convinced by them. For some of you, it won't matter from which science someone suggests global warming effects, you will reflexively deride it on no good scientific basis, and no amount of science or data will budge you.

Steve | 7:05 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

The global warming folks continually assume that becasue the world is getting warmer, that proves people are doing it. The earth has been, on average getting warmer, since the last ice age. "Proving" that the earth is getting warmer, and that there are effects as a result, is NOT proof that it is all due to human activity.

Anonymous | 7:51 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

You have to love the nonsense.. I hope this "global warming" keeps up.. I snowmobiled till the end of April this year and could have kept goin into May.. Best snow in years!

Rush Limbaugh | 7:56 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

My scientist on staff assures me that global warming is not happening, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and is indeed a political ploy by the evil liberals to ruin the economy and this great country. Man is arrogant to assume that they can some how change the climate of the earth! So don't worry about it.

Double mega super kudos with sugar on top!

Clem | 8:31 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

If George Bush says there isn't global warming, there isn't! I believe everything he says. I'm from Utah.

Re: Malthus | 8:58 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

I find it signficant that you would use the name of another Doom-and-Gloom scientist that has been proven wrong again and again, Thomas Malthus, who incorrectly predicted imminent mass human starvation some 200 years ago.

Of course we've been warming for the past 150 years; for the 300 years prior to 1850 the earth was locked in a "little ice age". Perhaps the earth is merely returning to the "normal" climate that existed during the Middle Ages.

When scientists can explain exactly why our earth has cooled and warmed several times over the past 10,000 years without any help from humans, then perhaps I'll listen to their hysterical projections of environmental collapse.

Until then, I'll just note that the actual global temperature record since 1998 shows a slight decline, in spite of an increase of almost 10% in atmospheric CO2 concentrations.

South | 9:03 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

Global warming? Ok, I'm a firefighter. I love how our "spokesmen" say all firefighters believe in global warming. I don't think fighting fire on the Arizona strip and southern Utah is any hotter than it was 10 years ago! And we have had 5 years of record setting winters down this way. Here's what I see:

#1: Fuel loading, fire suppression, no logging/thinning have increased plant growth tons! More fuel=larger fires. Wet winters also give us more fine fuels to burn.

#2 Invasive species...cheatgrass and red brome. Both are not native to this part of the country, or in the case of cheatgrass, not native to the US. It is the primary carrier of over 90% of our large fires in southern Utah/Northern Arizona. It has increased like you wouldn't believe over the past 5-8 years down here. It also follows the highs and lows we get with precipitation. Remember the St. George floods? Our biggest fire season down here was after that winter, all due to the cheatgrass boom.

Corrections | 9:10 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

There are some real climate experts around here, aren't there?

First of all, some of you don't understand the difference between climate and weather. The fact that we got lots of snow last year says nothing (for or against) global warming. Global warming is a long-term trend, not something you can tell by looking at one year's weather.

Next, we're not in a drought right now, as some of you seem to think. Our last drought ended in 2007.

Finally, there's really no debate that the world is getting warmer, particularly in the west. Fire season is getting longer (17 days longer than 50 years ago), the average snowline during winter is rising (250 feet over the last 20 years.....remember when we used to have snow in SLC during Christmas?), the flowers in your garden are blooming 22 days earlier than they were in the 1960's. There's plenty of debate left on WHY the world is getting warmer, but the fact that it IS getting warmer is no longer a question.....at least, everywhere outside of Utah.

gp | 10:09 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

CO2 is not a pollutant. No matter how many fires are burning, or have burned, CO2 is not the problem. As a chemical engineer, and having studied the issues, there is not a shread of evidence that says CO2 is causing all the earths bad weather. The real problem will come when the EPA will have to rule the nation by forcing calamitous regulations on every man, woman, and child that breaths because of the false notion that the CO2 they give off is a harmful pollutant. This, my friends, is the greatest fraud in memory, other than the WWII ethnic cleansing of the Jews.

Pac 10 Alumnus | 10:29 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

This is nothing but junk statements made without peer reviewed research to back up their claims.

Anonymous | 10:37 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

If global warming is a long term trend, why did they just start using data from the mid 80's and try to extrapolate that for all of human history?

"combined with decades of fire-suppression tactics that allowed unsafe fuel loads to accumulate, as well as severe bark-beetle infestations that are rapidly decimating trees and ever-expanding human settlements in and near forests,"

This is the reason for increased fire numbers and intensity. It has been extreme environmental policies that keep us from taking dead trees out of the forests. Nature is not as benign as many want to believe.

John | 11:01 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

Global warming is for the liberals to have some more things to blame their troubles on because we all know it's never their fault.

pkut | 11:26 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

shouldn't the temperature of the globe be going up if there is global warming?

TO: Corrections | 11:58 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

I remember immediately after 9/11, when the airports where shut down and all planes were taken out of the sky. I found it laughable that many in the media and even some "scientists" as reported in the news noted that the United States had miraculously cooled by 10 degrees. They based this totally on the lack of emissions from planes. Talk about "looking out the window".

I really don't know the cause of the weather and I doubt anyone does. There are many far smarter than me with "theories", but I find it amusing that they can't even predict the weather a week from now. Although I know "weather" does not mean "climate", I still find it silly that we fill we know what the cause of it all is. Unfortunately Global Warming is the go-to epidemic and the world has bought into it.

Perhaps the world is getting warmer. Why is this so alarming? The earth's been there before. The way I see it is that the far-left have always wanted their radical environmental agenda to be out in front of the political landscape. They've finally done it by introducing Global Warming and are getting away with it.

Al (The Bore) Gore | 12:04 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

You have got to be kidding? There is no way that global warming is a natural phenomenon. I am right and the scientists are wrong, If you search my Internet (You know I invented it!) then you will learn that I am right, excuse me I have to leave on my private Jet to go to my massive (wasting energy) villa to live it up on the public dime, If I was worth anything I'd get a job and act like a man, but alas I don't have to...Ha! Ha!

Michael | 12:24 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

Global Warming? Did they miss the fact that now scientists have said that global warming hasn't actually occurred over the last 10 years, and that it's taking a break for the next 15? It's a ploy for money and power!

As for the fires...maybe the environmentalists who stop the clearing of dead trees and brush, as well as controlled burns, should take the blame.

Woody | 12:28 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

More propaganda from a biased source reported by the drive by media. The Al Gore group along with Gov. Huntsman continue to provide more misinformation regarding this issue. The same people a few years ago said we were going to have another ice age. Wrong then, what about now?

Re: Corrections | 12:30 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

".....remember when we used to have snow in SLC during Christmas?"

Uh, yeah. Last year. And 2005.

And back in 2003, there was a Christmas storm that ranked among the ten biggest snowfalls ever. I shoveled nearly two feet of Global Warming off my driveway in less than 24 hours.

Utah normally has a "white" Christmas two out of every three years, and I have yet to see anything during the past two decades which would suggest that is no longer the case.

Corrections | 2:52 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

12:30, say it slowly with me: Weather and climate are not the same thing.

Now repeat 3 times (or longer until you understand).

Ugh | 3:03 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

If the quality of thinking expressed on these message boards reflects the quality of thinking that goes into public policy on climate, we're all hosed.

Confused? | 5:00 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

So Let me see if I understand the article. Tom France says that we need to reduce the human footprint on our forests, (which says to me no more controlled burns or hauling out dead, dry wood) and at the same time we need to improve our forest management. Does this look like opposing expectations to anyone else?
I'm still wondering what this article's purpose is. Does anyone have a solution to this conundrum. Will it go away if just inflate our tires to the propper pressure?

jfs | 5:20 p.m. Aug. 15, 2008

Ugh

Your right were getting hosed, cap and trade, social structuring through taxes, man made global warming. Look on the other page, the Sahara was green and lush 10,000 years ago. Climate has always changed. But don't figure you'll use it for political control. Good critical thinking requires a good dose of skepticizm.

Please, "Corrections" | 2:05 a.m. Aug. 16, 2008

Why do you have to be so condescending and arrogant? You made the statement of wanting us to remember when we had a white Christmas in SLC. I felt 12:30's retort was to the point and suggested your statement needed a little more thought.

That to me is so typical of how discussions go with global warming supporters who know they're losing this argument. They know that slowly people will figure out that it's the biggest scam the world has seen.

Let's protect the natural beauties around us. Let us treat them as treasures and not squander them. We have the responsibility to be good stewards in maintaining and keeping the environment from going into disrepair. Recycling, conserving energy, not littering, keeping pollution to the lowest we can, staying on designated roads when riding ATVs, only taking what we will use, and leaving no trace when we venture into the backcountry are all wise decisions we should make. Here in Utah this is especially important as we have some of the most scenic and unique landscapes on earth. It is our duty.

The above has nothing to do with global warming. It has everything to do with being responsible.

Al-anon | 7:38 a.m. Aug. 16, 2008

You are ignorant about fire science. Certainly, fuel loads have been a factor, but from a century of misguided fire SUPPRESSION. Most fires take place in the "industrial" forest where logging is taking place. By your logic, before humans showed up to log, forests didn't have a chance to flourish due to the fires. Examination of the historical and paleontological evidence confirms the ludicrous nature of your comments.
Some of the beetles are foreign, brought here accidentally, and are ravaging tree species that have no resistance. That is a separate but very real problem.
Any club will do to belabor your enemies with; even ridiculous clubs. That's why the decline of science education is so important to all these issues.

Raymond Takashi Swenson | 9:21 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008

After the unusually warm year of 1998, there has been NO average warming of global temperatures. 2008 is cooler than 2007. That is 10 years of no warming, so claiming that ANY trend is due to warming in the last 10 years is baloney.

The claim that wildfire control is needed to keep global warming by 2100 to 2 degrees Fahrenheit is also baloney. The MEDIAN forecast of the UN IPCC climate models in 1997 was 2 degrees Fahrenheit warming by 2100, with NO controls on CO2 emissions. The last 10 years of NO warming shows that NONE of the models is accurate.

I am all in favor of controlling wildfires. But be aware that many environmental groups (e.g. Sierra Club) are arguing that wildfires should be EXEMPT from regulation for greenhouse gas purposes. They don't want to see brush cleared and trees logged to reduce widlfire potential. They want to regulate how far you can drive and how warm or cool you can keep your house, but don't you dare stop forest fires.

EveryoneLovesRaymond | 11:56 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008

Raymond, I'll limit myself to your false wildfire comments. You clearly don't understand how western forests work. Many species, such as aspen, ponderosa pine, and the animals that depend on these species, absolutely require fires to prosper. They have been genetically engineered for the last 12,000 years of natural selection, to EXPECT fires. People practicing your version of "controlling wildfires" are what landed us in this bad fuels situation in the first place.
While I have actively lobbied for fuels-reduction projects to "jumpstart" an ecosystem back towards health, the long-term goal now is to restore fire to ecosystems (where possible).
Judging from you nonscientific outlook on fires, I'm going to take a chance and conclude that your other comments are, well, baloney.

Raymond Takashi Swenson | 9:47 a.m. Sept. 8, 2008

To EveryoneLovesRaymond: If you ever check back here, you might think for a moment. In the short space allowed, I did NOT assert that there is no positive ecological reason for widlfires. I was simply pointing out that certain environmental groups want to ignore the CO2 contribution from wildfires while strictly regulating mankind's activities. That is placing the benefits to ecosystems of wildfires ABOVE the benefits to mankind AND the environment of every human activity. That is a distorted priority.

Your misreading of what I said is hardly a basis to criticize the other factual asertions in my comment. 2008 has been much cooler in Idaho where I live than any of the previous years I have lived here (since 2000). That is true in general across large areas of the planet. This continues a decade-long trend that is contrary to the alarms about global warming that were issued in 1997. Global warming, if it exists, is just TOO SMALL to be seen against the background of natural climate variation, up and down. We are below the high of 1998, which in turn was below the high of 1934. Global temperatures have stayed below that for 74 years!

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