Reader comments
LDS leader's '07 address still causing controversy

546 comments | Read story

To Glenn Foley: | 7:55 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

I understood exactly what you were trying to say, there was no need for clarification for many of us. We all, every single person alive on this earth, need to know our place in our Heavenly Father's plan. That's the only possible way we can return to live with Him, and that's the only possible way we can be really, truly happy for longer than a short season. I found your words to be comforting and supportive. Please don't feel as though you need to apologize for giving offense.

Counting on you mothers. | 8:05 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

The fathers get a pass.

Mothers who know, "their sons wear white shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts."

All of you "mother's who know" are being found lacking.

I will be at church next week, checking shirts for ironing and crispness. I will also be checking for grooming on all young men.

White shirts, wash and wear; not easily wrinkled; business-like style

Suit(s), traditional style and cut, conservative, dark colors; no sport coats. No baggy or pegged pants. Extreme or faddish styles are inappropriate. A suit coat is required while at the MTC and while traveling to and from the mission field; the extent to which you wear a suit coat in the field will be determined by your mission president.

Belts, black or dark brown, with conservative buckles.

Ties, conservative in color, width and design. No pictures or bright colors, no western string ties or extremely narrow ties.

Black or bwon shoes with matching socks.

No hair over the ears, and watch that facial hair.

I think the LDS women have more to fear from sister Beck than the non LDS.

I will be judging you.

Anonymous | 8:15 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

"Mothers who know desire to bear children."

Those who don't have kids, well, they are not mothers, which makes sense, I guess.

Comments continue below

To The Non-LDS | 8:17 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

Please know that "Obvious", who posted on 10 Aug at 7:44, does NOT represent the attitudes of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the vast, vast majority of it's members or the Savior we love and worship.

Cleaning my backyard | 9:56 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

No shriek from me. Do you often shriek? I would have to care what you think, and I don't. You, I don't care what you say.

Boyd Packer is a friend of the family, but still, his talk in Priesthood was creepy for one so young as I was, and the factory was not producing yet, and made my skin crawl. I don't like my skin to crawl during priesthood meeting.

Sister Beck is not the prophet, and her talk was the same as anyone else's talk in church. If I spoke in your ward, you might blow me off to.

I love my slice of Eden, Christ, my wife, my family, BYU Football, the Temple and the gospel. The church is weird, but the gospel is true.

Sis Beck's talk did not pertain to me, I have daughters, so I don't need to dress my sons up as "Ken Doll Missionaries".

I am not either ticked at you or Christ, I love Christ. You, I do not know, but you sound a little nutty.

So thanks there, Samuel the Lamanite, but I'm working on my backyard, and you should work on yours.

Sounds like you have a caravan stop.

-------------------------------- | 10:08 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

To The Non-LDS | 8:17 p.m.

Can I just add that anyone posting does NOT represent the attitudes of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the vast, vast majority of it's members or the Savior we love and worship.

Anonymous | 10:24 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

"Social science affirms that a woman's place in society marks the level of civilization."

Elizabeth Cady Stanton

I hear Utah is getting one of those fancy electric lights soon.

Geoff | 10:32 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

Sister Beck is telling Mothers what David O. McKay told Fathers - that no success can compensate for failure in the home.

Fathers work hard to support and nurture their families.
Mothers work hard to support and nurture their families.

This process is what helps us develop as human beings with understanding, empathy, service, and love. The products of this environment of hard work and sacrifice are better prepared for their own journey of becoming.

Feminists, please understand, this is no end-around, but a direct attack on your idealogy. We accept that you will not understand that the hard working, selfless, engaged mothers who sacrifice and raise children are doing so out of choice, not by blindly following a patriarchal "order". Hard? Challenging? Difficult? Exhausting? All of the above, and worth it.

It is our belief that our children's success, and even our societies success, depends on a mother and father, working together, to raise children properly. Yup, sacrifice is involved.

It seems that the feminists think that Sister Beck did not see the "firestorm" coming. Unlikely. We do agree, that Mothers blindly following "patriarchal orders" should rethink why they are doing what they are doing.

Dear Sister Beck | 10:36 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

By perpetuating the either/or myth about women -- they can be successful in their careers or good homemakers -- you miss an opportunity to address the real fact that many women are both.

A missed opportunity.

rogerdpack | 10:39 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

I had a friend once who told me "you know it's too bad--you and I never get to have the best calling. We never get it." He was referring to motherhood and a little tongue in cheek, but also serious.
Something to think about.
-R

just a thought | 10:49 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

Those who are very offended by Sister Beck's talk might want to re read the recent conference talk given recently by - was it Bednar? - where he talked about how " people CHOOSE to be offended". It was a great talk and would help a lot of you. Those of you who are running around going crazy about this talk might want to consider reading the Proclamation on the Family again. If you don't like the content, take it up with the prophet!!!

RE: Lucy | 11:10 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

What does "cowboy up" mean?

Anonymous | 11:27 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

Call me crazy, but I think this was a very poorly written article! I wish they would have put a link to Sister Becks talk. Then we could really think it through by ourselves. And quoting so many different random people...
If the talk by Sister Beck is the one that I think it was, it was very well done! As women, we all have our place in this world. We all have different stories. Different journeys. Sister Beck has simply been called to try to shed some light on how to find our way through the choices that we have to make as women. Once we find our path, whatever that is, motherhood or not, just enjoy it and don't try to be one to pull others to your life's journey simply because you think it's the best. It is your journey! Let others find theirs and be happy for them when they do. That is true sisterhood.

Beck or Dew? | 11:55 p.m. Aug. 10, 2008

There is no doubt that Church leaders, both women and men, infuse a great deal of their own, personal perspectives and viewpoints into what they teach as Church "doctrine."

Sister Beck infused a bit more than a little of her own narrow views into her talk, and did so with an indelicacy that is somewhat shocking, even for those of us who are faithful Latter-day Saints.

If the Prophet and First Presidency were committed to the kind of narrow view of women's roles that Sister Beck described, they would never have approved the calling of Sheri Dew as a counselor to Mary Ellen W. Smoot in the R.S. General Presidency from 1997 to 2002, the first non-married woman called to this position in Church History!

Ernst T. Bass | 1:26 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Why does Sunstone have a problem with this?

If your kids don't come out squeaky clean, it's your fault.

Dad's OK, he has a job.

Why would one woman do this to all the other women? Give them a difficult standard, and set them up to fail?

(I'd quote a scripture here, but the best ones have been taken).

Bruce Willis | 3:00 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

"Cowboy up" means you get on your hourse and ride.

No excuses, no whining, just doing it.

Steve Masterson | 5:16 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Are people who say others are judgemental,judging them as judgemental? How silly to say someone is judgemental. Everyone is judgemental! Including those on here who say others who disagree with them are judging those whom they condemn.

Wow | 7:38 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Wow, so many comments are so far off the mark. I was raised in Alpine and know members of Julie Bangerter Beck's family personally. Sis. Beck does not speak from some provincial uninformed position. When she was a girl, her father (Wm. Grant Bangerter) served as a mission president in Brazil, with the family living there. The members of her family are among the best, down-to-earth people I know. If her message upsets you, I would look inward and ask yourself why.

flip answers | 8:13 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I cowboy'd up by finally finding the edification I was longing for in my quest for a closer relationship with my Father in Heaven. Each day there is much reason to rejoice as I leave the caravan and look for the one to assist and nurture in their own struggle. After long years of heartache and disillusion in faithful obedience, I found peace by following my heart and acting with integrity to the moral purposes of living my best life and supporting others in doing the same. This took me right out the doors of the LDS church. As I read some of these comments stating 500 people don't matter, that the church caravan detours for no one, I can see why. What has happened to compassion for the individual? Seems it may have just become too much for this organization to deal with people one on one, or perhaps the members have become too busy to enjoy the neighborly behavior that builds trust and helps identify those that could use some support.

Stephanie | 8:21 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

"Women Leaders" - are you aware that Sister Beck was partly raised in South America? Her mother was the first mission president's wife, and she organized the first Relief Society ever in South America. Perhaps you ought to get to know her a bit more before saying, "As I listen to them it is apparent that so many of them have never lived overseas or have been exposed to any other culture". She likely knows more than you.

Quote | 8:48 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

"They do not abandon their plan by succumbing to social pressure and worldly models of parenting" Here is a quote from Sister Beck's talk. It descibes this opposition to a tee. Read the talk on lds.org and then read this article and decide for yourself.

2nd quote | 8:56 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

"Effective parenting is a learned behavior, and, as parents, we learn and grow with each child. Children come with their own gifts, challenges, and freedom of choice. (We reject teachings that encourage women to shoulder ultimate responsibility for every aspect of child-rearing and family life), and to take on shame and guilt when things do not go according to plan." Here is a quote from the opposition website. Sounds like they don't want to take responsibility for their own children. You decide!

Cowboy | 9:10 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Fatherhood is as good as motherhood any day. I agree with COWBOY UP! Get on your saddles and get to riding. Life is too short to be whiner.

It's too easy to follow ? | 9:16 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Number 21:4-9 - Look and Live. Beck speaks the truth, doesn't suit some - so they have their reward of their own heart anyway. What's the big deal ?

3rd quote | 9:24 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

"and in our belief that the life story we are ultimately responsible for is our own." This is the last line on the whatwomenknow website. Sounds kinda selfish doesn't it. Sounds kinda like they aren't responsible for their children. Every kid isn't going to turn out perfect. I didn't, and my parents tried pretty hard. What a crock. Read both the talk and this website. Then you decide.

Some things to consider | 9:24 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Some things to consider. Utah leads the nation in the proscribing of anti-depressant medication. Utah has led or is very high in the rates of bankruptcies. There are some serious problems in our communities and I think it ties back to what we believe. In today's world, especially recently, it is simply not possible to have one wage earner in a family. I say this and for many years my wife was a stay at home mother. In today's economy with inflation many times higher than officially stated, and with wage growth stagnant, it is not possible for many people to pay 10% of their (gross) income to an organization. Many people, like myself, pay tithing, but any objective look at what it is doing shows that we can not save adequately for retirement by doing this and we can not save for our children's education by doing this. The church needs to adjust tithing so that the sacrifice does not drive people away out of a fear of not being able to do it. It needs to adjust what it expects out of its members. Unmet expectations causes many good people to get depressed.

Re: some things to consider | 9:36 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

It is possible to have one wage earner. I am a father of 6 and a sole wage earner. You just can't keep up with the neighbors.

mrs. ink | 9:34 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Thanks! I appreciate this article and the comments (inane or otherwise) because it made me go back and reread Sis. Beck's talk with new eyes, and I think I got even more out of it than the first time around. Mothers who know (like me) got the uplift, the rest of you got offended.

"And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken."

To some things to consider | 10:01 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Consider this: Start by living within your means. Sell your ATVs and your boat. If you can't make your mortgage payment then don't send your wife to work, rather, look at getting into a home that you could afford in the first place. Just because the Jones family next door has those things doesn't mean you can even afford to live in the neighborhood.

Education is great, but if your kids want it, make them pay for it themselves. Your responsibility is to educate them enough to where they want an education and pursue it on their own, not to pay for it for them.

Don't blame any of your or anyone else's financial difficulties on the Church because it's not the Church's fault. I'm a father of three and sole bread-winner in my family and we make it just fine. The trick is to know your limits. Our children will benefit more by having their mother at home than by having a bigger house, nicer cars, and being spoiled with everything they want.

unmet expectations | 10:06 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I was pleasantly surprised when I moved out of Utah, to find a RS that wasn't filled with women who were freaking out over whether or not they ironed their 5year olds t=shirts. So much of the guilt Mormon women feel is self inflicted. It is not coming from our leaders. I love Pres. Hinckley's wise counsel of "just do your best." I've had friends who've moved to Utah and say they feel the pressure to be perfect. When my ward suggested doing a "steps to perfection" program, I told them I would not participate and why. I was supposed to set goals and when I achieved them, my husband or VT had to sign off that I'd accomplished it. How offensive, I'm an adult and I know and God knows if I've accomplished my goal. I've been out of Utah for 20 years now and have never once had a RS have this type of goals program. I'm grateful. Your Eternal welfare does not depend on how many quarts of peaches you bottle or how many quilts you make. Love, serve and be happy. It's all so simple.

Maren | 10:19 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I love the idea that we all "choose" to be selfish and work for our own desires. Funny, I desire my daughter to eat, so I work. Wow, what selfishness I possess. Other ladies in my neighborhood trade babysitting days so they can go to the gym, scrapbook, or just have some quiet time. Which, I am sure, is much better than the fact that I so selfishly go to work so my child can have a roof over her head. I have never owned a scrapbook because the materials seem like a luxury, but my selfishness in wanting to clothe my child is apparent. The reason some of us "evil" women felt hurt by the talk is simply that we already struggle to find a place in the church. I have a testimony, but it does not mean I am immune to hurt. I just have to choose to rise above it. I really wish that condemnation would really be reserved to those without sin, and the rest of us would just love one another.

To Maren: | 10:38 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Sister Beck wasn't speaking to working mothers, she was speaking to stay at home mothers. Everybody knows that sometimes, it's just not possible to stay home with your kids. Nobody's faulting you for that.

What these comments are referring to are those families that can afford to have a parent without employment, but because of selfish reasons, that parent goes out and gets a job anyway, regardless of whether his or her children need him/her around at home more than they need to be earning a paycheck.

Sister Beck's talks have highlighted the idea that being a mother is the most important job a woman can have. Some women feel that their career is the most important job they can have, and when they hear what the LDS church teaches, they become offended. Nobody is speaking about the women who, due to financial concerns, HAVE to work in order to provide for the needs of their families.

Mary | 10:42 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I loved Sis Beck's Talk. Am I the woman in her talk? Absolutely not...but I can try to be. For me, the talk simply illustrated how to be better, I'm not offended by that or overwhelmed by it - I'm grateful for it. As a 27 year old mother of 1 and 1 on the way, I have no clue what I'm doing, nothing prepared me for this. I want to be the best for my children and do what's best for them. And I believe that between God and myself, we can decided what is best for me and my family, and I think that is true for us all.

Love Being a Mom | 10:55 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I think much of what is causing so much controversy is difference in perspectives and circumstances. The last comment that was addressed to Maren was right on. Everyone's situations are different and thus result in different ways of raising a family. Everyone has to do what works for them and their families. The Spirit will confirm our decision as correct if it is in line with the Lord's will for us.

Sister Beck was addressing where our hearts and desires should be. There are many women out their who must work to keep their families up and running, that have a great desire to be with their children as much and has fully as they can. I think that that is all she is talking about. Just be your very best!

I have the wonderful blessing of being able to stay home to raise my children. Financially this is possible for us. We live quite frugally but very happily. I am just happy to know that I get to raise my children rather than someone else who may not be striving to be the best mother - a mother who knows and holds a testimony of the truth.

re:Steve | 11:19 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

When people say you are judgemental, they can be observing a behvior of making personal judgements of "someone elses morals", something I think the Bible talked about, "Judge not lest ye be judged".

When someone tells you that you feel guilty, are wicked, that the caravan to heaven is going to leave without you (insinuating you're not going to make it to heaven but they are...

I think that is wrong, and really one of the things my fellow LDS do that get's sort of old.

Dana | 11:19 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I feel like many others on that have commented that what Sis Beck talked about in her talk was a very important thing for us as women and mothers to hear. When I heard her talk it gave me hope and encouragement that what I am doing as a mother has eternal influence and power in this world. I feel bad for those women who got offended from her talk. You have to ask yourself really deep down why you are feeling that way? Maybe you will be surprised the answer, maybe not. I feel that all this talk against what Sis Beck said about the importance of our roles as mothers will lead to what the Family Proclamation to the world says "Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." I believe that as mothers we are the glue that will hold our families together. It is important that we have the correct understanding of what our roles are in our family. Not everyone will be the same because we all live in different circumstances. SO PRAY TO KNOW YOUR ROLE!

re:Maren | 10:19 a.m. | 11:43 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Maren, Sister Beck was speaking as President of the Relief Society, the church's organization, so she was speaking directly to you,

Saying that she wasn't is like saying the church leaders were not speaking to me about drinking, smoking and playing poker.

The church is about you becoming perfect here on earth, therefore setting us on a road where we can never achieve success.

The Gosple of Jesus Christ is about intelligence, thining and understanding gosple principles, families, and eternal salvation.

I live the gosple, but find thing that are said in church are sometimes weird.

Just remember that in heaven, there will be no need for a "church", kids in white shirts and ties, and mormons to walk around and inspect your homes. Just do the best raising your kids. The church is there as a tool to help you, but if you're doing some plumbing, and don't need a hammer, don't pull it out of the tool box.

Brian | 11:44 a.m. Aug. 11, 2008

My wife and I have raised three children. The oldest son has a degree from Utah State, served a mission for the church and was married in the temple. The second, a daughter, has a degree from the University of Utah, teaches first grade, plays piano in Primary and hopes to be married in the temple and will be a wonderful mother. The third child is currently serving a mission in South America. My wife is a full time mother, a wonderful wife, and a part time nurse. On top of her many accomplishments she would say that being a mother of these three wonderful and beautiful children is her greatest accomplishment. Together, my wife and I have changed many diapers, washed many dishes, vacuumed many floors, cleaned many little messes, relished every primary talk, smiled during every hour of piano practice, and stood with pride at high school and college graduations. No, our lives aren't perfect. We look for talks like Sister Beck's to help us become better. I love my wife and I am proud of her as the mother of our children. My greatest accomplishment is to be a husband and father.

Respectfully | 12:10 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I have no wish to offend, but I was reading a few of these comments and have to repond. I don't have time to read all of them because I'm at work. I'm amazed at the controversy these words caused. I went back and read the whole talk, and believe it was a great talk!
As for the person who wrote "Women leaders...make me cringe" I must have misunderstood you. Are you saying that they shouldn't use life experiences in this global church due to cultural differences. By that token you won't learn anything today from any of the Old Testament Women and their stories. Or any of our scriptures for that matter in our NEW, Refined, and High Tech world. IF WE ARE listening with the spirit(D&C 50:17-23 / Nep 8:12)
If we aren't listening with the spirit confusion can occur. I've had to go back and read a few myself because of distraction or unpreparedness to listen and hear. When we are searching for God in these words, have the spirit, and look for comfort we will find IT. Knock, Ask, and Search. I feel bad for those not listening in this case, because it was spiritually guided.

Maren | 12:13 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Where are all these people who work for "selfish" reasons, and how do you know? Have you talked to every single one of them? Because I do talk to all the mothers I work with, and I do know that they all have their own reasons for working, none of them selfish. It is amazing to me that those who have the priviledge and blessing of having enough to live on look down on those who may not. My husbands family literally often do not know where their next meal will come from. So many people have financial worries. I do not think we should judge. I think women who stay at home are great. I think women who work are great. I think it is bad of anyone to say that someone is selfish because of their choices. No one knows but God. It is no wonder some of us feel left out in Relief Society. People who do not know my circumstances call me selfish. I have learned that no one knows anothers heart. All we should do is love one another and leave it up to God.

Missing the point | 12:18 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

If the liberal thinking Sunstone group would get a clue and accept the amazing role that women/mothers play in the course of the world then they would not have any trouble with Sister Beck's talk. Pride will be the downfall of society as it is those who assume that motherhood is a limiting and demeaning philosophy.

Satan's work | 12:34 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

"Firestorm?" 340 blogs? Why?

The only question is, did God ordain men and women as partners in the creation of the human family, with their distinct and complementary roles?

It was been hard work in our family, and worth every day of it. If you believe differently, then try out your plan.

Some folks seem plenty able to leave the Church and its teachings. But they just can't leave it alone.

ello | 12:43 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

The LDS church does not respect women. We all know it, anyone who studies the Church knows it.

JC | 12:53 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Well, I'm sick and tired of only being good for providing for my family and getting my wife pregnant. I feel like a old tired work horse. Get up, goto work, come home, feel guilty for not spending enough time with kids and not doing enough around the house, and on and on and on...

Get over it people. So you don't agree with something that was said in General Conference. Big deal, it doesn't make it any less true because so many people are mad about it. Both genders have a divine destiny and like it or not that is the way it is.

The church teaches pure principles and the highest ideals that we should all be striving to become. What are the suppose to preach? How crappy it feels somedays to get up and and fulfill our responsiblities. Reality is that life sucks some days but we get up and try again to do better the next.

I however, appreciate leaders that preach the ideal and encourage me to be a litte bit better each day.

ps. Me: employed outside home, Wife: homemaker. Works for us...

re: unmet expectations | 1:16 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Utah is a great place, like everywhere else we have our share of looney's. It sounds like you know that 1st hand from the experience you had. I agree that was a weird and inappropriate activity. It could have been a looney's idea or just a misguided well meaning sister. Don't charactize all of Utah this way, because I promise you don't know what it is like eerywhere in Utah.

Professional & MOM | 1:22 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

If you think women's roles are adequately acknowledged by the patriachial leadership, notice the Ensign & Church News bios for mission presidents, temple presidents, & other Church leaders. The man's professional accomplishments are always listed, the women's rarely are. And yet, the women partner with their husband in fulfilling these callings. What are they trying to hide? Where would healthcare & education be without women?

Re: Maren | 1:25 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I work with alot of women, and I can tell you that some of them are working for selfish reasons. One women I know has the biggest house in the entire neighborhood, she had a great house that fit her family. Her husband has a good job. It was all about having the new house. That all she talked about. That is why she is working. I feel sorry for her kids going to daycare all day.

I have letters after my name. . | 1:24 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Big whoop. After a long and successful career I married and was able to give birth to two terrific children. I chose to stay home and raise my best friends rather continue my profession. There are times I miss things about the professional world. Although I've kept up with my field of study and continue to take on-going classes so I can perhaps one day re-enter my profession, I have learned for myself that there is nothing more grand and all encompassing than motherhood. Sister Beck knows what she's talking about--as do all our general authorities. I know this because I have a testimony that these people are guided by Jesus Christ Himself. What we need is not more intelligence, but more faith--the kind that follows real soul searching.

Motherhood is/was hard--hardest thing I've ever done. Now that they're in their later teens, I look back at my wonderful family with one major regret--that I was not blessed (unable) to have more children. I pray I'll live worthy so I may have that exquisite blessing throughout eternity. True motherhood is the most soul-expanding venture I've ever been through.

A dude | 1:32 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

I make $12.80/hr. I go to school. My wife stays at home with our son. We get by (with no assistance from govt, church, family, school, etc). It can work, but we don't have a nice TV or any fancy new game consols or a new car.

Re: JC | 1:36 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008

Right on brother!

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.